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Offlineralphserket
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Minecraft and simulated realities * 2
    #13734444 - 01/05/11 12:20 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Not everyone here will be aware of the game minecraft, so I will briefly sum it up. Your character inhabits a procedurally generated world made up solely of blocks representing different materials: stone, earth, wood, water blocks etc. You have tools (pickaxe, axe etc) with which you break up different blocks to then either use directly (burn coal in a stove) or to build things with. People have built amazing things in this block world: a scale model starship enterprise, intricate railcart and rollercoaster networks, entire small cities.

Minecraft  computer


The most interesting thing however, is the interactive “machines” players have built using the resources available in the game. There are machines that kill animals and transfer the pork down channels into the player's house, at the flick of a switch. Recently people have been building simple calculators in minecraft, and even miniature “computers” with basic simulation of transistors, ram, and memory.

This isn't merely an array of ingame bells and whistles made to look like a computer, it as a fully legit emulation of hardware that functions in principle exactly like the real thing. If you could build enough of these block transistor arrays, you would be able to replicate a computer entirely. (The fact that this isn't very practical in minecraft is beside the point, this is interesting because it's an example of hardware emulation that's easily visualised.)

Lets imagine that if there were enough players, a decent computer could be constructed “manually” within minecraft. Now say also that you could build a decent input/output device into this computer.
This Minecraft computer would then itself be able to run Minecraft. (Insert “yo dawg” joke here.)
You would be able to play minecraft inside minecraft... I think you can see where I'm going with this. If you kept going with this Russian dolls gig, you would eventually have to stop because the processing power utilised by the simulated computers would begin to approach the maximum processing ability of the host computer, that is to say your desktop PC

Now think about the innate desire for the human to transcend itself. We love to immerse ourselves in virtual worlds. We read and create fiction. We put on masks so we can take on other persona's and enact plays. More recently, our simulated worlds have become more “alive.” We have highly interactive games. The games are important because they are in many ways an approximation of human reality. The near photorealistic visuals you see in crysis are the product of large teams of programmers developing game engines that utilise physics and mathematics to emulate the sense data of the visual world.

So far we have not addressed artificial intelligence that can improve on itself, or is otherwise “conscious”. (whether the appearance of consciousness equates to consciousness or not, is a sticky issue that I'm trying to avoid now for the sake of simplicity)

Lets say that the human race developed runaway AI in a situation similar to what Ray Kurzweil predicts. Lets say, every human mind was uploaded into this titanic computer simulation to form a hive mind enriched by every experience in the history of existence. (hippie wet dream :awesome:)  At that point there would be no reason for “wetware” to exist at all: physical bodies would be obsolete. You could simulate every experience imaginable. Sex with anarchist chicks all day long in a post-capitalist utopia, or whatever flavour of bullshit you subscribe to. I'm pretty sure though, that most of you would agree you would get bored. A hundred years, a thousand years, a million, you would get sick of it.

Every single scenario the hive mind could think of would be a rearrangement of the same old ingredients. As long as “it” or “you” retained the memory of prior experience, you could not have any new experiences. It would be like gigantic, hyper-realistic computer game, but there are only so many permutations, so many ways of playing through before you get bored.

There are only so many things you can build out of your set of lego blocks. So now what do you do?

I'm convinced that “you” would choose to forget what you already know so that you could re-experience the joy of seeing something for the first time. All the memories of the hive mind would be kept in the virtual library: the hive mind-machine would then proceed to split itself into little fragments of processing power, “beings” if you will. So then you get the best of both worlds: not only do you have the tremendous experience, the peace of having experienced everything under the sun, but “you” are also continually rediscovering these experiences.

Now combine this idea with the following argument from wikipedia, an interesting theory that proposes that probabilistically, we are most certainly living in a simulation.

Quote:


i. It is possible that an advanced civilization could create a computer simulation which contains individuals with artificial intelligence (AI).
ii. Such a civilization would likely run many, billions for example, of these simulations (just for fun, for research or any other permutation of possible reasons.)
iii. A simulated individual inside the simulation wouldn’t necessarily know that it is inside a simulation — it is just going about its daily business in what it considers to be the "real world."
Then the ultimate question is — if one accepts that the above premises are at least possible — which of the following is more likely?
a. We are the one civilization which develops AI simulations and happens not to be in one itself?
b. We are one of the many (billions) of simulations that has run? (Remember point iii.)

In greater detail, his argument attempts to prove the trichotomy, either that:
1.intelligent races will never reach a level of technology where they can run simulations of reality so detailed they can be mistaken for reality (assuming that this is possible in principle); or
2.races who do reach such a sophisticated level do not tend to run such simulations; or
3.we are almost certainly living in such a simulation.




I have no real argument, only speculative points. I'm just interested in shroomerite's ideas.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: ralphserket] * 1
    #13734564 - 01/05/11 12:52 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:yesnod:
great post

:nothingtoadd:


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OfflineTropism
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: ralphserket]
    #13735094 - 01/05/11 02:54 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
:yesnod:
great post





Yeah, that was a good read.
Nothing to add really, if this is a simulation then I'll probably do exactly as suggested.

I'm convinced that “you” would choose to forget what you already know so that you could re-experience the joy of seeing something for the first time.


--------------------
Be the you that you gotta be.


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OfflineYith
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: Tropism]
    #13736449 - 01/05/11 07:18 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Wouldn't we eventually realize we are stimulation junkies and try to grow from that point?  Like our consciousness would evolve? Let people afraid to grow erase their memory to keep reliving the same thing over and over and over.


--------------------
See my shadow changing,
Stretching up and over me.
Soften this old armor.
Hoping I can clear the way
By stepping through my shadow,
Coming out the other side.
Step into the shadow.
Forty six and two are just ahead of me.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: Yith]
    #13736833 - 01/05/11 08:21 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Good read.  I'm curious how long it took the guy to build that computer in Minecraft.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleBlindSophist
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: Yith]
    #13736838 - 01/05/11 08:22 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

When you check out of the game, a computer program steps in to control your avatar.


--------------------
The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
H.L. Mencken


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Offlinecrumblebum
I DISAGREE


Registered: 04/24/07
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: BlindSophist]
    #13736988 - 01/05/11 08:46 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Depending on the exactness and power of the computer, there need not be any more experiential burn out than with actual reality. A lot of science is based on the idea that the whole universe is made up of a small variety of particles that follow certain rules. If the sciences of cosmology, particle physics, and computing advanced sufficiently then the simulation would run from the lowest particle up, simulating and representing the actions of each quark.

The problem seems to be with the keeping and maintaining of a "library" that gives substance to anything that doesn't currently have substance in the universe created. I think the solution would be to simply segregate the imperfectly simulated reality from the perfectly simulated reality. That way you could ski with Jesus in death valley for the morning, and spend the rest of the day in the more consensual parts of reality.

Any new experience that would be possible outside would be possible inside, if the simulation was perfect enough. The simulation could effectively predict the outcomes of events never imagined by the minds that created it, and represent them as they would happen.

The basic thing that makes the universe interesting, our imagination and our ability to recombine the universe in different ways to suit and delight ourselves, would not only remain unchanged, but would be amplified and empowered.

Talking to people about paintings on the internet while looking at jpgs of them is fun, but walking into a coffee shop to sit down with people from all over the world and talk about the perfect Caravaggios over the fireplace would be a different thing entierly.


--------------------


Edited by crumblebum (01/05/11 08:47 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: ralphserket]
    #13740488 - 01/06/11 01:01 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup: One of the more facinating posts I have seen here in a long while.

I'm pretty sure though, that most of you would agree you would get bored. A hundred years, a thousand years, a million, you would get sick of it.

I do question this notion. The sex drive seems to be unstoppable with enough energy and as long as the variety is sufficient (read millions+) would you actually tire? On XTC I've often thought that I could live eternally within the peak.

What say you?


--------------------

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

A human life is a journey into darkness -unknown



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OfflineR2-D2
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: Icelander]
    #13742188 - 01/06/11 06:31 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html
Jhana meditation doesn't get boring.
And I wonder about laughter/humor also.
Plus, couldn't you simply remove the sensations that imply boredom from the simulation? It seems superfluous to me.

And what about God?
Either way, this thread is super awesome.


--------------------


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Offlinecrumblebum
I DISAGREE


Registered: 04/24/07
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: Icelander]
    #13743811 - 01/06/11 10:39 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
:thumbup: One of the more facinating posts I have seen here in a long while.

I'm pretty sure though, that most of you would agree you would get bored. A hundred years, a thousand years, a million, you would get sick of it.

I do question this notion. The sex drive seems to be unstoppable with enough energy and as long as the variety is sufficient (read millions+) would you actually tire? On XTC I've often thought that I could live eternally within the peak.

What say you?





My thoughts exactly, on both accounts.

This is one of the more genuinely thought provoking posts I've seen here in my sporadic returns. It's a simple thought experiment without an agenda, and OP managed to distinguish the experiment itself from his thoughts on it, rather than building his ideas into the structure of the experiment.

Also, in terms of boredom, hell, being a pedantic elitist faggot finally comes in handy!

I spend the first lifetime becoming a complete scholar of the presocratic philosophers. Next lifetime, post Socratic greeks I.E. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, then to mix things up a bit I'll dedicate a lifetime to understanding the subtleties of the relationship between Basquiat and SAMO, then I'll skip up to the continental philosophers in the next lifetime, then maybe spend another entire lifetime studying whatever 5-10 year period of art or literature history strikes my fancy.

In amongst all that, and interrelated to it, I'll be learning about all the interpretations that other minds have arrived at.

And more specifically addressing your point, all throughout that time I'll be getting more credits towards my doctoral degree in tapping that ass.


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: ralphserket]
    #13743954 - 01/06/11 10:58 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

This reminds me of a plausible future scenario where humans will create a micro machine programmed to seek out its constituent raw materials and make more copies of itself. It is launched toward Mars, for example. Once there the machine looks for the raw materials and starts copying itself. Each copy then goes on to make yet more copies leading to over 4 billion by just the 32nd generation and over 100 octillion by the 100th generation.

Once enough copies exist, the next level of the program engages and the billions of machines create a single, larger, more advanced machine whose programming is to create copies of itself too, but with many specialized variations. Some will be like bulldozers, optimized for digging, others will be like cranes, and others would have delicate instruments and tools for detailed work

The programming will then cause the machines to make buildings and habitats suitable for humans. If the first generation was sent with plant seeds, they could even chemically convert the Martian soil to something suitable for Earth plants to grow in.

Eventually, the programming will cause the machines to launch part of their population toward the next likely planet (taking some plants with them) to start again, leaving the ones on Mars to continue terra-forming the planet for us.

After sufficient time, the entire galaxy will be colonized by these machines and made habitable for humans who will by then have begun spreading across the galaxy.


--------------------
The depressing thing about tennis is that no matter how good I get, I'll never be as good as a wall. :what:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: Diploid]
    #13744284 - 01/06/11 11:52 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

This reminds me of a plausible future scenario where humans will create a micro machine programmed to seek out its constituent raw materials and make more copies of itself. It is launched toward Mars, for example. Once there the machine looks for the raw materials and starts copying itself. Each copy then goes on to make yet more copies leading to over 4 billion by just the 32nd generation and over 100 octillion by the 100th generation.

Once enough copies exist, the next level of the program engages and the billions of machines create a single, larger, more advanced machine whose programming is to create copies of itself too, but with many specialized variations. Some will be like bulldozers, optimized for digging, others will be like cranes, and others would have delicate instruments and tools for detailed work


For some reason this reminded me of the cells creating our bodies. Evolution at work, but maybe without the errors.


--------------------

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

A human life is a journey into darkness -unknown



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InvisibleBlindSophist
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: Icelander]
    #13745969 - 01/07/11 06:08 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I do question this notion. The sex drive seems to be unstoppable with enough energy and as long as the variety is sufficient (read millions+) would you actually tire? On XTC I've often thought that I could live eternally within the peak.

What say you?




One could always submit the possibility that such experiences with ecstasy only indicate tirelessness within the context of a fragile, limited, spongy human brain under the influence of slight neurochemical modifications.

Personally, I would hope that simulations such as those postulated by this thread enable consciousness on a much greater scale than that made possible by the human brain.


--------------------
The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
H.L. Mencken


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Offlinesorahtak
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: ralphserket]
    #13746286 - 01/07/11 10:17 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I wholeheartedly agree with the people that are pointing toward the idea that in a future where we had that much control over our brains and our experiences, boredom would be a thing of the past, even without erasing one's memory. The very neural substrates of boredom could be modified out of existence.


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Offlinerandom_wanderer
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: sorahtak]
    #13746471 - 01/07/11 11:30 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting.

Considering that within the parameters of scientific measurement, a deeper reality cannot be proven anyhow (which does not mean that it does not exist); and considering that all that we perceive is our interpretation of data rather than the data that is interpreted, even information we take from instruments used to record data as it happens, are just interpretations influenced by our subjection, the idea that reality might just be a simulation is highly plausible.

What is it that convinces you that once we run out of building blocks we would reboot so that we could re experience "the joy of seeing something for the first time"?

Do we only experience joy when we see something for the first time?

What is it about seeing something for the first time that gives us joy?

Sometimes people can be very scared.  I suppose in the computer metaphor, the fear can be an exhilaration due to it not following through to danger which promotes some sort of adrenalin addiction.

Is joy are primary purpose in life?  If that is so, should we not seek to find what materials the building blocks are made from, instead of mining the blocks until the source runs dry.

just a few thoughts and questions, cool thread.

edit: reply is to first post, still havnt got the forum completely sussed yet *blushes*


Edited by random_wanderer (01/07/11 11:35 AM)


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: random_wanderer]
    #13754048 - 01/08/11 08:19 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think it would be possible to have 'every possible experience' because once you had those experiences, you would then have the choice to relive them again, and if you chose not to, you would assumedly keep living and have more choices. UNLESS our choices are merely part of the experience, and our final experience is that of 'chosing to relive it all'.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: Noteworthy]
    #13754076 - 01/08/11 08:23 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I would like to see an argument that actually suggests that we will be able to simulate a reality as diverse as this one. The article referred to in the OP merely assumes it is possible.

Anyway, the argument also proves that God is almost certainly real as well. Because if there was a simulation, there would be a creator of the simulation and this would have all the powers of God.
I think THAT is quite an important result of the argument.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: Noteworthy]
    #13754138 - 01/08/11 08:34 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Well it's good to know that god is real. (imaginary)


--------------------

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

A human life is a journey into darkness -unknown



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Offlineralphserket
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: Icelander]
    #13760425 - 01/09/11 11:54 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Wouldn't we eventually realize we are stimulation junkies and try to grow from that point?  Like our consciousness would evolve? Let people afraid to grow erase their memory to keep reliving the same thing over and over and over.




See, I can't imagine a way of growing out of the stimulation junky phase without not only destroying human consciousness, but any form of consciousness at all. Where exactly are we going to go? The only reason we “try” do do anything is because of the emotional push/pull factors that come with being a human. The pleasure/pain stimuli if you want to really dumb it down; the “good” and the “bad.” These are the motivators, the push/pull dynamic that causes us to engage in behaviour that will enable the passing on of our genes. We are at our most basic just self-replicating machines, and any and all other aspects of the human sphere are merely outgrowths of the process that regenerates the self and the emotional forces involved.

If you're a superconscious ai floating there in space with every human experience under your belt, what is your motivation to do... anything? You have no need to reproduce. No insecurities. Nothing can destroy you. Boredom doesn't really cut it. Firstly, you can go and re-live any number of billions of past lives. Secondly, boredom seems so.. human.

The way I imagine this AI is like a million different sounds all averaged, cancelling out to produce exactly... nothing. Remember you cannot meld the minds and still have separate minds.. (or can you?).  So you have Jesus and Gandhi and Stalin and Hitler all in the same head, thinking at the same time. How can they not all cancel each other out? 


Quote:

I do question this notion. The sex drive seems to be unstoppable with enough energy and as long as the variety is sufficient (read millions+) would you actually tire? On XTC I've often thought that I could live eternally within the peak.

What say you?




I think that you would keep refining your definition of pleasure, until pleasure became meaningless, and empty. You would start by enjoying the whole act, then only the climax, then only the feeling of the climax in the absence of any physical sensation, ie you would distil the feeling into its pure form, which is really nothingness. It doesn't seem to me that any activity, even sex on XTC, could remain pleasurable indefinitely not because it would become boring as such, but simply because of the way pleasure is defined.

Normally when you try to live in a state of unending pleasure, there is some equalising force that serves to “balance the books.” I hate to go all mumbo jumbo on your ass, but it sounds a lot like karma. The balancing of every negative with a positive of equal magnitude and visa versa. I mean look at Heroin addicts; sure they experience those unending hours of pure pleasure, but there has to be some sort of a crash, some sort of a shitness to frame the goodness against. In fact, I'm not sure “good” exists without its counterpart at all, much like a minus in mathematics doesn't exist without its complementary plus. Its as if the good and the bad all add up to “nothing.”

I'll give an example to illustrate the point. Some many years ago we had no medicine. Teeth rotted out of your skull, you died at 40. You stank. You might get you balls chopped off or chucked in boiling oil if you insulted the pope. The only pleasure in life was fucking your wife or husband without contraception and dealing with the babies later. Fast forward to today.. we have medicine. If you live in a moderately wealthy country you have free time, guaranteed food and shelter, education etc.

Yet are things really better? Can we really say, “the people of today are happier than the people of 2000 years ago, on average.”? How do I measure my happiness against yours? People in America and Australia and Canada still think there lives are shit, or mediocre. They have depression, they spend their entire lives working, they die unsatisfied. And thats just ignoring the suffering that goes on in parts of africa etc.

It seems like these things balance themselves out on the macro and micro scales. I admit I am not sure of this part. Maybe its possible to keep someone jacked up on heroin their whole lives in a nice little house where they are fed and clothed and injected by nurses until the day they die?

I'd like to address the rest of the posts later because they are damn interesting, but right now I cant be assed.


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OfflineBluePixieWaves
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Re: Minecraft and simulated realities [Re: ralphserket]
    #13760577 - 01/10/11 12:20 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I just really thing everything comes in waves. Ups and downs that continue until you die and then I don't know eventually your waves of pleasure and pain are going to end and then what?


Everything seems to get boring no matter how pleasurable.


--------------------


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