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Towelie said:
Psychedelics should not be used to escape or hide from reality,
they should be used to embrace, accentuate and widen reality.
Make everything real.

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zZZz said:
"All so-called spiritual experiences generated by taking "mind-changing" drugs such as LSD, mescaline and psilocybin are superficial and add enormously to one's addiction to the deceptions of illusion which is but the shadow of Reality."

Read this: http://www.avatarmeherbaba.org/erics/godpill.html


What is your opinion, if you read it, about this. I found it very interesting and true.

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circastes said:

By the way when Baba says 'Reality' with a capital 'R' he doesn't mean physical reality (a myth like the edge of the world). He means the 'truth' or the state of 'God-realization', the 'Self' or union with the only thing that exists.

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Oh, he's talking about that thing I experienced on shrooms many times 

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circastes said:
Baba says some crazy stuffs but he was legit. I guess we should look at him in the context of 20th century India.

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Yeah, I think this is important to remember when looking at Baba's life. I personally love him. I just got Discourses.

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Krackatus said:
Doesn't sound like he's even taken acid.

"Although LSD is not an addiction-forming drug one can become attached to the experiences arising from its use and one gets tempted to use it in increasing doses, again and again, in the hope of deeper and deeper experiences. But eventually this causes madness or death."

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I highly doubt that he ever took acid. While I don't agree with the last sentence that Baba said, I can easily agree with the rest of that quote... unless he's talking about death in some other way.

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Space Elf said:
"There is no difference in principle between sharpening perception with an external instrument, such as a microscope, and sharpening it with an internal instrument, such as one of these...drugs. If they are an affront to the dignity of the mind, the microscope is an affront to the dignity of the eye and the telephone to the dignity of the ear. Strictly speaking, these drugs do not impart wisdom at all, any more than the microscope alone gives knowledge. They provide the raw materials of wisdom, and are useful to the extent that the individual can integrate what they reveal into the whole pattern of his behavior and the whole system of his knowledge." - Alan Watts in The Joyous Cosmology

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"Although LSD is not an addiction-forming drug one can become attached to the experiences arising from its use and one gets tempted to use it in increasing doses, again and again, in the hope of deeper and deeper experiences. But eventually this causes madness or death."

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No one has ever died directly from taking LSD.

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Many guru types are pretty invested in their cultural belief system and are threatened by any outside influences

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Medically there are legitimate uses of LSD. It can be used beneficially for chronic alcoholism, for severe and serious cases of depression and for relief in mental illnesses.

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LSD is just another way,

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Icelander said:

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zZZz said:
"All so-called spiritual experiences generated by taking "mind-changing" drugs such as LSD, mescaline and psilocybin are superficial and add enormously to one's addiction to the deceptions of illusion which is but the shadow of Reality."

Read this: http://www.avatarmeherbaba.org/erics/godpill.html


What is your opinion, if you read it, about this. I found it very interesting and true.

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Sounds like an overblown case of hubris to me.  "My way is the only real true way ism"

LSD can be a hindrance or a help depending on the person or situation.

That guy is way fos imo and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he has no first hand experience in the matter.

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soldatheero said:

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"Although LSD is not an addiction-forming drug one can become attached to the experiences arising from its use and one gets tempted to use it in increasing doses, again and again, in the hope of deeper and deeper experiences. But eventually this causes madness or death."

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It is important to understand the context behind what is being said.

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No one has ever died directly from taking LSD.

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It is quite obvious to me that he does not mean direct death from LSD. The sentence clearly states that the repeated use of LSD can cause madness. Madness in turn can cause death. It's not like this has not happened before (indirect death from LSD).

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Many guru types are pretty invested in their cultural belief system and are threatened by any outside influences

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Meher does acknowledge some rather significant benefits to LSD.

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Medically there are legitimate uses of LSD. It can be used beneficially for chronic alcoholism, for severe and serious cases of depression and for relief in mental illnesses.

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So it is evident he is not exactly taking a black or white perspective.

The message in the pamphlet linked about was given directly to the 60's LSD culture. People (many of which young teens) were revolting against the so-called spiritual beliefs of the time, they were looking away from religion seeking real spirituality. Meher's main point in this message was that LSD\psychedelics does not = spirituality. The belief that LSD did have great spiritual significance was actually doing great harm at the time.

It's important to keep in mind that Meher's definition of spirituality is likely to be different and does not necessarily coincide with what we consider to be "spiritual". He holds spirituality in the highest esteem, spirituality is literally "the path back to God".

The reason LSD can be useful in treating depression and OCD is because it breaks down the normal functioning of the mind and in turn makes people see things different for once (it takes them out of their ego). So a western materialist person who normally has no spiritual inclination or even the slightest knowledge that spirituality actually has any real meaning, when this person takes LSD and sees things differently they can finally recognize fundamental spiritual truths. From their perspective they may take this as a huge and mighty epic revelation but to someone who knows real spirituality it is merely a cornerstone. In this case mind altering drugs on seem to have spiritual value because of (or relative to) how spiritually ignorant we really are.

Meher acknowledges that LSD draw one towards the path but it is not the path itself. The repeated use of it is most likely to drag one further away from Truth (or seeing reality clearly) I believe this is true.



Merry Christmas... ya filthy animals

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soldatheero said:

Is it tho?? When you are high you can have realizations and what not but I don't think you can attain any permanent state that will not fade as the LSD fades. This is precisely why Meher says LSD has no real direct spiritual benefits, it's because the experience is temporary and ends.

How can we consider LSD a path? You may realize a certain amount from it but that is it, its not like you can keep taking it.

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zZZz said:

That's exactly what he was saying. No first hand experience? This man was directly experiencing what LSD and other such medicines want you to strive for, LOVE.  What more do we need!? Is love not what we all want, is it not what we all strive for? consciously and subconsciously? Such medicines can cure mental and physical illnesses, but using them without purpose do you more harm than good. It's true they can prepare you for the spiritual path, but they cannot take you any further. It is YOU, the pure YOU, that's has to take it to the next level. Which requires much discipline, and a natural awareness that IMO such medicines cannot not give you. This is what I believe Meher Baba was trying to get at, if you can't understand his message then you have much to learn, and unlearn, IMO ofcourse.

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foliocb said:
Oh, and if you think these 'highdeas' attained while tripping fade away, you are SADLY mistaken. The thoughts, realizations and experiences that I have been given while under the influence have shaped me into a totally different, more loving and genuine person.

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foliocb said:
Having a closed mind in a circle of ignorance isn't going to allow you any understanding.

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Oh, and if you think these 'highdeas' attained while tripping fade away, you are SADLY mistaken. The thoughts, realizations and experiences that I have been given while under the influence have shaped me into a totally different, more loving and genuine person.

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If you're going to tell people they aren't going down 'real' paths... then you'll first have to define what 'real' is.... And good luck with that, because reality is not objective. Your thoughts on 'real truth' sounds pretty fake to me 

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Objectively, there are only paths. No right paths, no wrong paths.

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Subjectively, there are right and wrong paths.

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Objectively, there are spiritual paths as well. But there are no right or wrong spiritual paths on an objective level.

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The definition of 'spiritual path' is open to interpretation- and therefore subjective by default.

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If you want to believe that eating a natural fruit that brings forth new and possibly profound, spiritual experiences are 'wrong'

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What I am basically trying to tell you, in the nicest way possible, is that -none- of us know shit.

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You still haven't defined 'reality' to me yet. Wanna try? I doubt we will have the same answer on what is actually real

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If you want to read a website with rainbow edges in the background and words by an 'enlightened' man then go ahead

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soldatheero said:
My basic point to you is that all your experiences of joy, happinesss and love happen according to objective laws

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Objective laws?

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soldatheero said:
and you have no say in it

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Lol, and you do?

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soldatheero said:
I think my way of seeing, this way of seeing, is much harder to accept then yours

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I will agree here, I definitely find it hard to accept ideologies that are covered in

Cheers though, keep munching that blue pill every morning

edit: i think i've made you eat enough of your words, i'm off to bed. Merry xmas!

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zZZz said:

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Icelander said:

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zZZz said:
"All so-called spiritual experiences generated by taking "mind-changing" drugs such as LSD, mescaline and psilocybin are superficial and add enormously to one's addiction to the deceptions of illusion which is but the shadow of Reality."

Read this: http://www.avatarmeherbaba.org/erics/godpill.html


What is your opinion, if you read it, about this. I found it very interesting and true.

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Sounds like an overblown case of hubris to me.  "My way is the only real true way ism"

LSD can be a hindrance or a help depending on the person or situation.

That guy is way fos imo and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he has no first hand experience in the matter.

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That's exactly what he was saying. No first hand experience? This man was directly experiencing what LSD and other such medicines want you to strive for, LOVE.  What more do we need!? Is love not what we all want, is it not what we all strive for? consciously and subconsciously? Such medicines can cure mental and physical illnesses, but using them without purpose do you more harm than good. It's true they can prepare you for the spiritual path, but they cannot take you any further. It is YOU, the pure YOU, that's has to take it to the next level. Which requires much discipline, and a natural awareness that IMO such medicines cannot not give you. This is what I believe Meher Baba was trying to get at, if you can't understand his message then you have much to learn, and unlearn, IMO ofcourse.

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foliocb said:
Meher is just another human being doing what we do best- trying to objectify subjective thoughts/experiences.

Hate to break it to you, but all thoughts/concepts/ideas are open to interpretation, doesn't matter if theres a dictionary 'accepted' definition of the word 'atom' or not. Just because we can google a word's definition doesn't mean it's objectified, it simply means someone objectified a subjective thought/concept/idea and it was recognized and agreed upon by other people- doesn't mean its objectified. It still only holds as much meaning and interpretation that you put on it. Can't escape that one, sorry

What I am basically trying to tell you, in the nicest way possible, is that -none- of us know shit. Doesn't matter if we meditate for 8 hours a day, or figure out intense equations on gravity, or make worthless posts on online forums. We all want to know, we all think we know, we all want everyone else to think we know. That is how human psychology works. However, the bottom line is that we have no clue what is going on, we are naturally terrified of this fear, the fear of not knowing.

I look at people like Meher and see an ego infestation that desires power and understanding, driven by fear.

fin.

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Quoted for relevance.

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Icelander said:
  This man was directly experiencing what LSD and other such medicines want you to strive for, LOVE.

And you know this how?  You don't really.  I'll bet you've never met him or hung out?  Do you realize how many guru's and spiritual teachers are out there? Do you realize how many times their followers have said the same things you are saying? Do you realize how many times some of these leaders have turned out to be phonies and liars and been caught with their hands in the cookie jar?"

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And as far as I/you know LSD does not "want" you to learn anything.

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Have you ever considered that maybe it's you who have a lot to learn?

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foliocb said:
hey zZZz, I have a very short and simple video that will put my thoughts much clearer to you.

If you can't agree with this, then maybe you should unlearn some of the ignorance you have subjectively chosen to surround yourself with?

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zZZz said:

when i read what you say all i see is ego, ego, ego, etc. so your barely on mckenna huh? i remember one time being attached to what he was saying, but somehow i knew there was much more to it than intellect. mckenna was very smart, perhaps too smart, but what i think he lacked most was heart. without this "heart", its almost impossible to go any further. all your gonna get is ideas and more ideas. they just keep coming and coming. when you give up these ideas its when you begin to move forward and begin to understand what its all about. now im not saying im perfect but goddamnit how can you be so close minded? in real life my ego is almost non existent, i am a very quiet person, but please just read and understand what is being said instead of skipping through the "bullshit" and adding it with your own "bullshit". fuck it its christmas(merry christmas btw) and i need another cup of wine so good day sir.

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I could never put my finger on it about McKenna, but I think that's it perfectly. I used to be in the same boat about McKenna.

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zZZz said:

when i read what you say all i see is ego, ego, ego, etc. so your barely on mckenna huh? i remember one time being attached to what he was saying, but somehow i knew there was much more to it than intellect. mckenna was very smart, perhaps too smart, but what i think he lacked most was heart. without this "heart", its almost impossible to go any further. all your gonna get is ideas and more ideas. they just keep coming and coming. when you give up these ideas its when you begin to move forward and begin to understand what its all about. now im not saying im perfect but goddamnit how can you be so close minded? in real life my ego is almost non existent, i am a very quiet person, but please just read and understand what is being said instead of skipping through the "bullshit" and adding it with your own "bullshit". fuck it its christmas(merry christmas btw) and i need another cup of wine so good day sir.

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Oh, I don't take everything to heart that mckenna says. However, he puts it very plain and simple and doesn't sugar coat his words, which we normally prefer in these sort of messages.

As for your ego being 'almost non existant'... yeah, nice try

Just the mere fact that you take christianity seriously is all I need to see that you are indeed a very egocentric person.

I am open minded to possibilities, simply because I am stating the notion that we in fact don't know shit... I don't know how else to put it simply?

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foliocb said:

Just the mere fact that you take christianity seriously is all I need to see that you are indeed a very egocentric person.

I am open minded to possibilities, simply because I am stating the notion that we in fact don't know shit... I don't know how else to put it simply?

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Christianity = Egocentric person? Please explain.

Also, isn't closing one's self off to an idea such as we know nothing limiting in its self? Or in other words, could one be creating a reality where the there is no answer and nobody knows anything?

Edit: Reading over what I said, I feel like I have to clarify in a simpler way: Isn't saying that there is "no answer" or that nobody knows shit closed minded in its self?

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Jesus is nothing more then a personified thought construct.

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"To what extent are you influenced by Christianity?"

"As a child, I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene."

"Have you read Emil Ludwig's book on Jesus?

"Emil Ludwig's Jesus," replied Einstein, "is shallow. Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot."

"You accept the historical existence of Jesus?"

"Unquestionably. No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life. How different, for instance, is the impression which we receive from an account of legendary heroes of antiquity like Theseus. Theseus and other heroes of his type lack the authentic vitality of Jesus."

"Ludwig Lewisohn, in one of his recent books, claims that many of the sayings of Jesus paraphrase the sayings of other prophets."

"No man," Einstein replied, "can deny the fact that Jesus existed, nor that his sayings are beautiful. Even if some them have been said before, no one has expressed them so divinely as he."

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The scholarly mainstream not only rejects the myth thesis,[59] but identifies serious methodological deficiencies in the approach.[60][Need quotation to verify] As such, New Testament scholar James Dunn describes the mythical Jesus theory as a "thoroughly dead thesis".[61]

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soldatheero said:

"You accept the historical existence of Jesus?"

"Unquestionably. No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.

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Really? When I read the gospels I didn't feel any presence, sounds like more subjective bullshit to me.

Oh, and if you want a brief lesson on other myths(I find it funny how the guy you quoted refers to jesus as a myth) then might I suggest a very simple youtube video?

You may also be interested in mother goose and the three little pigs if you enjoy the jesus story. 

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soldatheero said:

During the first century thousands of Christains died for Jesus as matrys.

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Haha, whats your point? Just because people die for a 'cause' justifies it? Oh and by the way, how do you know that people died for him during this 'first century'? Oh... you read it in a book? Hmm.... sounds like another circle of ignorance to me. I've heard it all before "Oh I can prove jesus' existence.... just go read the bible!" Yeah.... death anxiety...

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Haha, whats your point? Just because people die for a 'cause' justifies it?

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Examining some of specific claims made by the film, Forbes points out that while there are parallels between the story of Jesus and many other ancient mythological figures, many of the ones mentioned in the film are false, as are other aspects of the film's description of these myths. Forbes states that there is no evidence in Egyptian sources that Horus' mother Isis was a virgin, and claims that Ra was the Egyptian god of the sun, not Horus. Similarly, neither Krishna nor Dionysus nor Attis were ever said to be born of virgins, as Krishna was the eighth child of his parents, Devaki and Vasudeva, and Dionysus' mother, Semele, had slept with Zeus. Forbes asserts that Horus was not adored by three kings, and that neither he nor Attis were crucified nor resurrected. Forbes and interviewer John Dickson, founder of the Centre for Public Christianity, took issue with what they perceived as an argument centered on the homophony between the words "Sun" and "Son" in regards to Jesus, with Forbes dismissing this point as a pun, and pointing out that those words are not homophonic in ancient Egyptian, Latin or Greek. Forbes also points out that neither Horus, Attis nor Jesus were born on December 25, as the ancient Egyptian calendar did not include the month of December found in the Latin calendar, and that the date of Christmas is a celebratory tradition historically derived from Sol Invictus and Saturnalia, rather than the Bible.[25]

Forbes also criticizes the movie's use of Roman sources to suggest that Jesus did not exist, noting that the list of supposed contemporaneous historians alleged by the film to have not mentioned Jesus is actually a list of geographers, literature professors, poets, philosophers and writers on farming or gardening, who would not be expected to mention him, and that the modern sources cited in the film are either experts in fields other than ancient history, such as German literature, or uncredentialed amateur Egyptologists. Forbes challenges the film's allegation that Josephus' mention of Jesus was doctored by pointing out that Josephus actually mentions Jesus twice, and that only one of these mentions is believed by scholars to have been doctored in the Middle Ages, in order to change an already existing mention of him. Forbes also argues that while Emperor Constantine I legalized Christianity, it was Theodosius I who made it compulsory later in the 4th century, and that contrary to the film's thesis, Constantine did not invent the historical Jesus, as early records show that his historicity was already a key element of early Christianity prior to Constantine's conversion to it.[25]

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] S. G. F. Brandon and others argue that the very idea that early Christians would consciously incorporate pagan myths into their religion is "intrinsically most improbable,"[109] as evidenced by the strenuous opposition that Paul encountered from other Christians for even his minor concessions to Gentile believers.

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And for the most part, whether you believe zeitgeist or not, it's pretty easy to see that Christianity stole many of its aspects from pre-existing religions, especially Egyptian ones.

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If you honestly put your belief systems in ideologies that instill fear into you, and actually make you believe that the objective creator of everything is actually willing to judge its own creations

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