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 4896744
Small Town Girl
 
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
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 Extreme Rationalism 
#13661210 - 12/20/10 01:53 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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I consider myself to be an extreme rationalist. I have been going through all of my beliefs over time and if something arises that does not have a purely rational/objective basis then i discard it.
It has lead me to become an Atheist and Nihilist.
I would like to see arguments against my views from the perspective that they are not rational.
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Live your Life! 
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
Registered: 08/17/07
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Loc: ohio
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: 4896744]
#13661225 - 12/20/10 01:58 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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so rationalist insofar as you self domineer and refine or something?
self dialectic... cool...
and thus atheism and nihilism... well why nihilism? what is nihilism to you?
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Jesus loves you.
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 johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: 4896744]
#13661257 - 12/20/10 02:06 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Well, depends what you mean by "athiest". Folks seem to have some pretty widely diverging notions of the term.
Nihilism is hard to really comment on. Do you mean this as a positive belief? i.e. a belief that no external morality exists or that no moral framework is preferable in the abstract? Or do you meerly mean you don't have a belief as to these issues?
Nihilism certainly seems emotionally unappealing to me and many, and I always felt it was kind of pointless. I believe you can form a consistant moral framework from the presumption that people have a moral right to their body and the products and extensions thereof (i.e. property, relationships, et cet). This not only seems more practical and appealing, but it certainly isn't immoral in the nihilist view, so it always seemed a pretty good beleif system to me. Both practical, emotionally appealing in ways nihilism isn't, and not justifying the immoral even if we take the presumption of the moral right to the person to be incorrect (i.e. in the case of nihilism, or some forms of it).
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 16 hours
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: andrewss]
#13661260 - 12/20/10 02:06 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
andrewss said:
so rationalist insofar as you self domineer and refine or something?
self dialectic... cool...
and thus atheism and nihilism... well why nihilism? what is nihilism to you?
Sorry, but i don't really understand your first two lines (just love starting a discussion with a profession of ignorance...).
As for nihilism, I use the term to represent my belief that our lives are meaningless in any objective/universal sense. We are just an insignificant blip in the never ending morphing of the universe(s).
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Live your Life!
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 16 hours
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: johnm214]
#13661285 - 12/20/10 02:11 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Well, depends what you mean by "athiest". Folks seem to have some pretty widely diverging notions of the term.
Nihilism is hard to really comment on. Do you mean this as a positive belief? i.e. a belief that no external morality exists or that no moral framework is preferable in the abstract? Or do you meerly mean you don't have a belief as to these issues?
Nihilism certainly seems emotionally unappealing to me and many, and I always felt it was kind of pointless. I believe you can form a consistant moral framework from the presumption that people have a moral right to their body and the products and extensions thereof (i.e. property, relationships, et cet). This not only seems more practical and appealing, but it certainly isn't immoral in the nihilist view, so it always seemed a pretty good beleif system to me. Both practical, emotionally appealing in ways nihilism isn't, and not justifying the immoral even if we take the presumption of the moral right to the person to be incorrect (i.e. in the case of nihilism, or some forms of it).
Yes, i should have specified I am not a moral nihilist in the way that there is no right and wrong, but even here when considering only the most libertarian of social constrictions i find myself wondering if it is just my emotions playing with me. If i myself am an emotional being and have been my whole life how can i hope to objectively make a decision on something like this. It leads me towards the thought of a very naturalistic worldview with no morals.
Please try to counter this argument for i don't like the implications.
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Live your Life!
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 Freedom
Will swim for food
Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: 4896744] 2
#13661321 - 12/20/10 02:19 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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From a purely rationalist perspective you should have no views whatsoever because you should be dead. There are no reasons to live except for emotional ones. If you were purely rational you would cast aside your irrational desire for water and you would die from dehydration in a couple of days.
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: Freedom]
#13661338 - 12/20/10 02:23 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
From a purely rationalist perspective you should have no views whatsoever because you should be dead. There are no reasons to live except for emotional ones. If you were purely rational you would cast aside your irrational desire for water and you would die from dehydration in a couple of days.
Just because I believe emotion could give me a flawed and subjective view does not mean that i don't enjoy it. What would be gained by killing myself? I would rather live and continue to feel pleasure.
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Live your Life!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: Freedom]
#13661406 - 12/20/10 02:40 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
From a purely rationalist perspective you should have no views whatsoever because you should be dead. There are no reasons to live except for emotional ones. If you were purely rational you would cast aside your irrational desire for water and you would die from dehydration in a couple of days.
That's your idea of rational?
Imo it's rational to seek pleasure and avoid pain for obvious reasons. As long as life tips the scales in favor of enjoyment then it's rational to hang in.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: 4896744]
#13661415 - 12/20/10 02:42 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
iThink said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Well, depends what you mean by "athiest". Folks seem to have some pretty widely diverging notions of the term.
Nihilism is hard to really comment on. Do you mean this as a positive belief? i.e. a belief that no external morality exists or that no moral framework is preferable in the abstract? Or do you meerly mean you don't have a belief as to these issues?
Nihilism certainly seems emotionally unappealing to me and many, and I always felt it was kind of pointless. I believe you can form a consistant moral framework from the presumption that people have a moral right to their body and the products and extensions thereof (i.e. property, relationships, et cet). This not only seems more practical and appealing, but it certainly isn't immoral in the nihilist view, so it always seemed a pretty good beleif system to me. Both practical, emotionally appealing in ways nihilism isn't, and not justifying the immoral even if we take the presumption of the moral right to the person to be incorrect (i.e. in the case of nihilism, or some forms of it).
Yes, i should have specified I am not a moral nihilist in the way that there is no right and wrong, but even here when considering only the most libertarian of social constrictions i find myself wondering if it is just my emotions playing with me. If i myself am an emotional being and have been my whole life how can i hope to objectively make a decision on something like this. It leads me towards the thought of a very naturalistic worldview with no morals.
Please try to counter this argument for i don't like the implications.
I agree. Personal ethics rule over mob morality any day.
And being emotional creatures we have no choice but to emote.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: 4896744]
#13661429 - 12/20/10 02:46 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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If we limit the definition to this Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life[1] is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. we have a working method for getting a lot out of the experience of being alive imo.
That is on the condition that you can easily overcome previous programming which is far from a given.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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amuzakat
Growing mutant shrooms
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 519
Loc: Europe
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: 4896744]
#13661507 - 12/20/10 03:04 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
iThink said:
I consider myself to be an extreme rationalist. I have been going through all of my beliefs over time and if something arises that does not have a purely rational/objective basis then i discard it.
It has lead me to become an Atheist and Nihilist.
I would like to see arguments against my views from the perspective that they are not rational.
Rational from what point of view..?
Rational from the point of view of science, i.e., whether or not "God"/values/meaning actually exist (or rather, whether we have or can have meaningful evidence for that)
or rational from the point of view of your individual economic rationality/utilitarism: what you gain from holding the particular views/beliefs? (I.e. are you wasting your time holding these beliefs, or worrying about them.)
Unless the different variables are wholly independent, then it's not safe to assume that optimizing the performance of one of them will also enhance the performance of the whole system. I suspect the same holds for implementing optimal rational performance in the human mind.
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SlashOZ
Can't tell if trolling
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 2,988
Loc: or just in America
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: amuzakat] 1
#13661638 - 12/20/10 03:32 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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interesting thread.
you base your life on rationalism but I don't think you have made explicit yet whether or not you believe that it is making your life better or not.
so I ask you, do you feel that being an 'extreme rationalist' is improving your life?
have a nice day. 
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"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: 4896744]
#13662087 - 12/20/10 05:19 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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What is the rational basis for your adherence to extreme rationalism?
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ralphserket
Stranger
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: xFrockx]
#13664840 - 12/21/10 08:56 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
if something arises that does not have a purely rational/objective basis then i discard it.
Please define "purely objective."
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quinn
grimly predictable
Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 2,605
Loc: (usually) above sea level
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: 4896744]
#13664872 - 12/21/10 09:04 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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a nihilism which rejects rationalism:
no belief system is ever preferable to any other.
(note: by 'belief system' i mean the unchallenged assumptions that form the grid for the rest of our beliefs to logically flow from.)
here are some unchallenged assumptions that may make up the base of your own belief system:
-there are physical and mental things
-you are a self
-you have a mind
-you have sensations
-words have meanings
etc etc etc
and yet all these assumptions are entirely optional or not 'given'...
for a belief system to form there must be such unchallenged assumptions.
and given this 'fact' there really is no grounds for rationalism, for to be a rationalist one needs an established belief system to be rational about.
you could never rationally 'discover' or justify the assumptions that allow the system to form in the first place...
and so by rejecting all unchallenged assumptions you inevitably slide toward a kind of nihilism that is skeptical about any belief system and holds no beliefs to begin with.
i think this could be a good place to be because it seems that beliefs more often than not lead ppl to do silly things 
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a fucked of a fuckedness
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: quinn]
#13665022 - 12/21/10 09:37 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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quinn
grimly predictable
Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 2,605
Loc: (usually) above sea level
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: Poid]
#13665102 - 12/21/10 09:53 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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exactly...
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a fucked of a fuckedness
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: johnm214] 2
#13665407 - 12/21/10 10:54 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Nihilism certainly seems emotionally unappealing to me...I always felt it was kind of pointless.
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No more words of wisdom.
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 16 hours
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Quote:
SlashOZ said:
interesting thread.
you base your life on rationalism but I don't think you have made explicit yet whether or not you believe that it is making your life better or not.
so I ask you, do you feel that being an 'extreme rationalist' is improving your life?
have a nice day.
I guess it has improved my life in a way that i am more understanding of people and make more rational decisions that lead towards improving my overall level of happiness.
Quote:
ralphserket said:
Quote:
if something arises that does not have a purely rational/objective basis then i discard it.
Please define "purely objective."
I define objective as being verified in a "scientific" way.
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Live your Life!
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 16 hours
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Re: Extreme Rationalism [Re: quinn]
#13665771 - 12/21/10 12:01 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
quinn said:
a nihilism which rejects rationalism:
no belief system is ever preferable to any other.
(note: by 'belief system' i mean the unchallenged assumptions that form the grid for the rest of our beliefs to logically flow from.)
here are some unchallenged assumptions that may make up the base of your own belief system:
-there are physical and mental things
-you are a self
-you have a mind
-you have sensations
-words have meanings
etc etc etc
and yet all these assumptions are entirely optional or not 'given'...
for a belief system to form there must be such unchallenged assumptions.
and given this 'fact' there really is no grounds for rationalism, for to be a rationalist one needs an established belief system to be rational about.
you could never rationally 'discover' or justify the assumptions that allow the system to form in the first place...
and so by rejecting all unchallenged assumptions you inevitably slide toward a kind of nihilism that is skeptical about any belief system and holds no beliefs to begin with.
i think this could be a good place to be because it seems that beliefs more often than not lead ppl to do silly things
First of all I don't believe their to be physical and mental things, unless you mean mental in a figurative sense. I believe all things "mental" to be physical and quantifiable phenomenon.
Basically what i get from your post is the point that you can't truly know anything, which i agree with. However I do believe that i can gain a pretty good idea or "guess" of what is real based on evidence i see for these things.
You bring up things like language, sensation, etc. I guess my strongest evidence I use to justify my belief in these things is the success of invention. If there was no real basis to all of these "assumed" things then how would anything ever be invented through the scientific process which relies on things like language and sensation.
Don't our abilities to travel to space, create a working internet, etc. count as unassumed evidence?
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Live your Life!
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