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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Registered: 08/17/07
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13458732 - 11/09/10 12:29 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Mushrooms don't see color temperature, they respond to wavelengths.  :hulk:

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OfflineHofmann1943
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13458876 - 11/09/10 01:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

to
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

Those so-called 'peaks' at 460nm, etc., were wrong thirty years ago(concerning mushrooms, not plants) and they still are.  Mushrooms benefit more from full spectrum daylight color than any single wavelength.
RR




I'm sure that is true, so blue goes down the drain, But what kind of light source produces least heat. And this question is really important for all Martha's owners.
I tried cfl but they produce to much heat for my conditions.
any suggestions?


--------------------
By Albert Hofmann :
Been cautious man, I though I would start with a smallest, smallest quantity. Namely I started with 0.25mg.....and my intention was to increase dosage to see if something will happened.
That very small dosage, the first dose of my experiments i planed, was very very strong.

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OfflineHofmann1943
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13459004 - 11/09/10 01:33 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

HerbBaker said:
Mushrooms don't see color temperature, they respond to wavelengths.  :hulk:



yes wavelengths, why are you so mad?
wavelengths are conditioned by color temperature



--------------------
By Albert Hofmann :
Been cautious man, I though I would start with a smallest, smallest quantity. Namely I started with 0.25mg.....and my intention was to increase dosage to see if something will happened.
That very small dosage, the first dose of my experiments i planed, was very very strong.

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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: Hofmann1943]
    #13459114 - 11/09/10 01:59 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"wavelengths are conditioned by color temperature"

Maybe in regards to human perception, but that is all.

Two lights with the same color temp can have completely different wavelength profiles and in turn will have different effects on fungi.

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Offlinecaradoc
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm *DELETED* [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13459333 - 11/09/10 02:49 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by caradoc

Reason for deletion: .


Edited by caradoc (11/09/10 02:55 PM)

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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: caradoc]
    #13459437 - 11/09/10 03:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The color temperature of a lamp (bulb) describes how the light appears when the human eye looks directly at the illuminated bulb.

If you wanna go into more detail, it describes how the changing temp(in Kelvin)of a black body radiator appears to our eyes, from red to blue(low to high).
apparently only incandescent lights can be referred to color temperature, fluorescent and other lights use (CCT) correlated color temperature.

The correlated color temperature (CCT) designation for a light source gives a good indication of the lamp's general appearance, but does not give information of the specific spectral composition of the lamp or radiant power emitted by a light source at each wavelength or band of wavelengths in the visible region of the electromagnetic spectrum" (IESNA Lighting Handbook, 2000). Therefore, two lamps may appear to be the same color, but their effects on object colors can be quite different.

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OfflineHofmann1943
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: caradoc]
    #13459450 - 11/09/10 03:14 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

to HerbBaker

so you think that peaks in wave length are not BS?
I saw your post http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13256870
and you showed some really nice flushes.

to RogerRabbit
Why do you think:"Those so-called 'peaks' at 460nm, etc., were wrong thirty years ago(concerning mushrooms, not plants) and they still are.  Mushrooms benefit more from full spectrum daylight color than any single wavelength.
RR"

have you experimented with led narrow band light, or do you know someone who has?


--------------------
By Albert Hofmann :
Been cautious man, I though I would start with a smallest, smallest quantity. Namely I started with 0.25mg.....and my intention was to increase dosage to see if something will happened.
That very small dosage, the first dose of my experiments i planed, was very very strong.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: Hofmann1943]
    #13459867 - 11/09/10 05:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

have you experimented with led narrow band light, or do you know someone who has?




Yes, and the results were underwhelming to say the least.  I've experimented with isolated wavelength light, and full spectrum light on tens of thousands of grows over the last 40 years. 

In fact, to this day at least 50% of the grows I do are experimental.  This drives Mrs Rabbit nuts since we're trying to make money on our mushroom farm, but rather than do 100% of my substrates on "what I know works", I'm constantly trying new substrates, new strains, new supplements, different temperatures, and various lighting regimens.

I haven't yet figured out why herb is so obsessed with the 'human eye' regarding color temperature.  Color temperature refers to the entirety of the light, not just one frequency.  This has nothing to do with the human eye, as is well understood by professional film photographers.  It's like saying the only reason we eat carrots is for the carotene, without regard for the fiber, vitamin C, calories, etc.  The whole is often greater than the sum of the parts.

It must be remembered that many members here have never grown anything but P cubensis, a very forgiving species which will practically grow itself even when the cultivator does everything wrong.  Try growing the harder to cultivate edibles and medicinal mushrooms without paying attention to all the growth factors, lighting being only one of them, and see what happens.  When the lessons learned from harder to grow species are applied to cubes, the results are stellar.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13461053 - 11/09/10 09:32 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, color temperature has everything to do with the human eye.

Its anthropomorphic to think fungi see color temperature like we do.
Its also an error to try and apply the light requirements of one species to another.

In all scientific studies in regards to light and fungi, they use nanometers (nm) not color temperature or CCT to describe the light source.




"A discharge source has big 'spikes' in its output spectrum which come from the particular elements used in the fill mix forming the arc. For example, a discharge lamp might have a large spike in the Blue region, two or three spikes in the Green and a number of smaller spikes in the Red. What color is that? What your eye and brain do is smooth out these spikes and you see it as one color.

So how do you define a concept like Color Temperature for this 'spiky' source? The method normally used is to match the output of the arc source to an incandescent source and then take the color temperature of the incandescent source. When it's matched like this the color temperature of the discharge source is referred to as its 'Correlated Color Temperature' which provides a helpful approximation.

It is in this matching where the problem occurs - in theory this matching is supposed to be done so that the human eye sees them as the same color. That isn't very convenient, so measuring instruments (such as the Minolta meter) have been developed to do this matching for you. These meters have a response which is designed to match the response of the eye - and it does this very well WITH AN INCANDESCENT SOURCE. Unfortunately they have problems with very spiky discharge sources; it's very difficult to predict how the human eye will perceive these spikes and how the brain will smooth them out into a single color."

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OfflineMetamorph
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: RogerRabbit] * 1
    #13461839 - 11/10/10 12:44 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think your experiments really indicate that the peaks at 460 nm were wrong per se. I am actually convinced that fungi have light receptors (most likely some sort of flavoproteins or flavins) similar to the cryptochromes present in plants, animals and bacteria, actually in every Kindom except for the Archae. It is generally believed that these evolved very early in evolution, still before eukaryotes developed, which is why it is likely that these structures will also be found in fungi.
But of course this doesn't mean fungi don't have any other light receptors for other wavelengths*, maybe unique proteins only found in their kingdom. This is actually pretty likely concerning your observations. But you see, even if they do benefit from full spectrum light (which I won't question at this point), the absorption maxima of (at least some) fungal photoreceptors might/will still be found at around 460 nm and which is why the peaks Stamets indicated are not exactly wrong. They just don't show the whole picture. My two cents.
Anyway, far more research needs to be done here :crazy:

* To be exact: other light receptors whose absorption maxima are at different wavelengths

Some reading
http://books.google.com/books?id=3dGf9vUIlCIC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=basidiomycetes+blue+light&source=bl&ots=GUKoqv_v7S&sig=huwKoqb_Gxxow1-WxFhAFvJvrDk&hl=de&ei=bV6iTO_vFonGswa97pWKBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFoQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=blue%20light&f=false
Page 91f

http://books.google.de/books?id=diIw3GbXPeUC&pg=PR12&lpg=PR12&dq=carotenoids+as+light+receptors&source=bl&ots=kplosNkM6N&sig=OhH0PSG81igLEFL_f5SO77HS_vE&hl=de&ei=X8HZTNaBMs7HswbhltzlBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=blue%20light%20receptors&f=false
Page 198

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OfflineHofmann1943
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: Metamorph]
    #13462302 - 11/10/10 04:20 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

to RogerRabbit

Hahahahahha my girlfriend is going nuts too, or at least she think i'm nuts.
Bla bla bla you spend all your money on your stupid experiments.
And i always say it's ok honey that will make my life easier.
Well sometimes it dose, but most of the times i come up with some b*lls*it ideas.

I'm really interested in your experiments what have you try?
As we all know red spectrum is useless as the green too, guess you been experimenting from <500nm.
Please tell me some of the experiments you done on Cubensis.

because I'm really interested in that led diodes, as they are my only way out of temperatures like 300Celsius.


--------------------
By Albert Hofmann :
Been cautious man, I though I would start with a smallest, smallest quantity. Namely I started with 0.25mg.....and my intention was to increase dosage to see if something will happened.
That very small dosage, the first dose of my experiments i planed, was very very strong.

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Offlinecaradoc
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm *DELETED* [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13462935 - 11/10/10 08:21 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by caradoc

Reason for deletion: .



--------------------
1) I can't imagine how P could possibly be false
2) Therefore P

Edited by caradoc (11/10/10 08:34 AM)

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InvisibleCheeWiz
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: caradoc]
    #13463154 - 11/10/10 10:00 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Hi; I made an interesting find when going though some old camera equipment from the 70's when I was in the service. What I found was my old light color meter. The way it works is that it has a set of disks with six color filters per disk and these are used with a turret mount on the meter. You would turn the turret to set a filter over the light detector of the meter. These were use with color enlarging machines to help you set the color correction filters as each pack of enlarging paper would have it own color settings and sometimes with the gel filters used on lighting for a photo shot. I know this may be more information than needed but these meter go back to when a lot of you were born and have never seen one.

When I was looking at the disk set for the meter I found the blue light spectrum filter disk. Guess what it has 370nm-440mn-470mn filters in it. I called and ask my friend who's a climatologist if light color meters were used by them in the field back in the 70's and was told yes. But they were replaced with meters that were able to take a UV reading which is what he did his doctorate on (ozone thinning and UV energies in the tropics). What he said they would do was take reading with the different color filters. Then bar graph that information and cross the tops to get a light spectrum graph of the relative lighting by time of year at any point on the planet that you wanted. He also said you always use the whole light spectrum and not just a few points and doing so is poor science.

So what we have with these pecks are not so much points of light energy that stimulate pinning and fruiting but rather just filter setting on a common tool used to measure light spectrum and because he doesn't show the whole light spectrum is poor science on Badham part. Again I feel he used a syllogism and built his model based on that and then went looking for information to support that model. In doing so he borrowed things from botany that may not apply to mycology. He could have said you needed the light of fire flies and nobody would say anything because this is an area of mycology that most in academia didn’t want to touch. Like RR implied so much BS!

But it does give some of us who have been around something to snicker about every few months when someone will drag it out and tries to reinvent the wheel again.

Edited by CheeWiz (11/10/10 11:09 AM)

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OfflineHofmann1943
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: CheeWiz]
    #13463210 - 11/10/10 10:23 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

yes but much better wheel. :laugh2:


--------------------
By Albert Hofmann :
Been cautious man, I though I would start with a smallest, smallest quantity. Namely I started with 0.25mg.....and my intention was to increase dosage to see if something will happened.
That very small dosage, the first dose of my experiments i planed, was very very strong.

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OfflineHofmann1943
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: Hofmann1943]
    #13463224 - 11/10/10 10:27 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think I'll give it a try.


--------------------
By Albert Hofmann :
Been cautious man, I though I would start with a smallest, smallest quantity. Namely I started with 0.25mg.....and my intention was to increase dosage to see if something will happened.
That very small dosage, the first dose of my experiments i planed, was very very strong.

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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: Hofmann1943]
    #13463312 - 11/10/10 10:47 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

We are talking about CCT, fluorescent lights and all discharge lights are broken spectrum lights. When we speak of their color temperature we are talking about how it appears to our eye.

Blue LED's have an infinite color temperature.

Edited by HerbBaker (11/10/10 11:03 AM)

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InvisibleCheeWiz
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: Hofmann1943]
    #13463397 - 11/10/10 11:02 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Don't you think that RR and others including myself haven't been there and done that at some time in the past. I personally had taken my first class in microbiology in 1969. Started to grow mushrooms in the late 70's, left the hobby in 85 and returned to it in 2000. There are many other that go back a long time also. So this is so much been there done that too many of us. So when some one like RR who's been doing this for close to forty years says it's crap science there's a good chance it is!

In a few months to a year some one else will come along with the same line of thinking and chiseling of the wheel begins again. So when you're done reinvent the wheel you will find we are right.

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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: CheeWiz]
    #13463411 - 11/10/10 11:06 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Oh ok, I guess I'll pick up my marbles and go home.


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InvisibleCheeWiz
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13463524 - 11/10/10 11:28 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Oh I see we are to be very impressed because of a photo of a grow that we don't even know is yours and this is going to make you right. I don't know what color the suns are in what ever universe you live in. But back here on earth I'm not impressed! Good Day

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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Re: light for Cubes Cool daylight VS Blue 460nm [Re: CheeWiz]
    #13463532 - 11/10/10 11:30 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah its my grow with blue led, do you need a DNA sample?

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