Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!
|
 Grapefruit
Obliviated
Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 4,276
Last seen: 1 day, 19 hours
|
 Re: Just in case you wanted to Awaken [Re: deCypher]
#14619877 - 06/15/11 08:57 PM (11 months, 8 days ago) |
|
|
The organism can refer to itself but it is an automatic process independent of any control or guidance from an independent entity. The illusion of this guiding indepedent entity is what I would refer to as the illusion of self.
--------------------
"So man's insanity is heaven's sense; and wandering from all mortal reason, man comes at last to that celestial thought, which, to reason, is absurd and frantic; and weal or woe, feels then uncompromised, indifferent as his God." - Herman Melville
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 7 hours, 56 minutes
|
Re: Just in case you wanted to Awaken [Re: Grapefruit]
#14622665 - 06/16/11 12:23 PM (11 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
"it is an automatic process independent of any control or guidance from an independent entity."
Oh so there is no free will and the world is absolutely deterministic. I'm sure glad we know this. I'm sure glad we know this. I'm sure glad we know this. I'm sure glad we know this. I'm sure glad we know this.
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 20 hours, 39 minutes
|
Re: Just in case you wanted to Awaken [Re: laserpig]
#14623369 - 06/16/11 02:29 PM (11 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
laserpig said:
Just to clarify: the reference point does exist, but the reference point is not "who you are." The human body and mind =\= a linguistic reference point. Hence, a human body/mind does not contain a self, and selves do not have bodies or minds.
so, who or what is experiencing all that things going on around you if it's not your self ?
|
 deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Just in case you wanted to Awaken [Re: xFrockx]
#14623953 - 06/16/11 04:14 PM (11 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
"it is an automatic process independent of any control or guidance from an independent entity."
Oh so there is no free will and the world is absolutely deterministic. I'm sure glad we know this. I'm sure glad we know this. I'm sure glad we know this. I'm sure glad we know this. I'm sure glad we know this.
@Grapefruit: Even if there is no free will, there is still a point-of-view from this human, no? The idea of an independent entity is ludicrous, but I see nothing wrong with defining the self as interdependent with the rest of reality.
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
|
laserpig
Weedmaster_P
Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 7,468
Last seen: 9 days, 10 hours
|
Re: Just in case you wanted to Awaken [Re: BlueCoyote]
#14624194 - 06/16/11 05:04 PM (11 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Quote:
laserpig said:
Just to clarify: the reference point does exist, but the reference point is not "who you are." The human body and mind =\= a linguistic reference point. Hence, a human body/mind does not contain a self, and selves do not have bodies or minds.
so, who or what is experiencing all that things going on around you if it's not your self ?
Excellent question! The answer is no one, nothing. This is exactly our point. Experience is not "directed at" anyone or anything.
Experience/awareness exists in the world in just the same way as do trees and rocks. Awareness is a natural phenomenon in human beings. There is no self or soul observing the body and mind; there is only the human form, which is materially continuous with the rest of the world. Experience is a part of the human form, as are metabolism, movement, etcetera. All of these are coexisting phenomena of the natural world. There are no outside observers or separate entities. A clumsy way of phrasing this would be to say "all is one."
"Self" suggests a ghost in the machine. In my view, what is astounding about human beings is that we are such subtle and intricate natural forms. Like snowflakes, if snowflakes had a thousand degrees of differentiation, and could autonomously move about the world and speak. Humans are miraculous in the sense of being amazing, but there is nothing supernatural about how we work.
By way of comparison, I encourage you to really try to make sense out of the following position: the material universe is pushed around by selves, one of which is you, and you, invisible, immaterial you, animate the limbs of the body you're inside of. In that case, specifically what kind of a being are you? Do you control the brain? Do you create or alter the sequential firings of neuronal circuitry? If so, by what means? If not, then how can you claim to be making decisions?
When mentally comparing these two positions, the self one appears patchy and ill-defined, whereas the non-self position makes complete sense and is all-inclusive. But beyond that, putting all theory aside, this can be observed in immediate experience.
Observation of thoughts shows that they follow one another in a rhythm not unlike the heartbeat, or any other bodily process, and that their content is determined based on present environment and past experiences interacting automatically in the mind. There is no trace of a "me" who is doing this process. Please, check it out. I am not asking you to take my word for this.
Quote:
deCypher said:
@Grapefruit: Even if there is no free will, there is still a point-of-view from this human, no? The idea of an independent entity is ludicrous, but I see nothing wrong with defining the self as interdependent with the rest of reality.
My 2c, all of reality is interdependent. The question then is: if you want to define the human self as an interdependent thing/process with the rest of reality, where are its boundaries? What's the difference between you and not-you? If the self is interdependent, AKA, everything it does depends on everything around it ... then does it really make sense to say that you as a self can be the cause for bodily action or thought?
Also: as part and parcel of every human being is a view, to be sure, but is there actually a point of view? Observe sight. It's a plane of vision, right? It's not a point of vision. First off, each retina covers about a square centimeter, and second, there are two retinas. Describing human vision as one point does not make any sense when checked against observation. Just like describing a human being as one self.
Edited by laserpig (06/16/11 05:23 PM)
|
oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 8 hours, 6 minutes
|
Re: Just in case you wanted to Awaken [Re: laserpig]
#14624641 - 06/16/11 06:25 PM (11 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
i feel as though I (as a being, as consciousness) can either be present in the mind, controlling its thoughts directly, or just allow the mind to flow without interference. When I am present in the mind this is the true intellect. I also think there is a part of my mind, or my soul essentially, that is very wise, and is the entity that reincarnates. Ultimately of course it would have to be transient as it is a form, and nothing can last forever.
I gravitate much more towards the "everything is the self" viewpoint.
--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
| |
|
|
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Mr. Middle, Shroomism, Diploid, Kickle, c0sm0nautt
7,909 topic views. 2 members, 6 guests and 0 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic ]
| | |
|
|
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit 
Reply 
