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Dan4th
Psilocybin Researcher

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 31
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Last seen: 11 hours, 13 minutes

Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today!

1
#13157074 - 09/06/10 07:20 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Here's a link to the abstract: http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/archgenpsychiatry.2010.116

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jivJaN
yes

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,054
Last seen: 1 day, 11 hours

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: Dan4th]
#13158111 - 09/07/10 12:21 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Awesome.

I want more details though.
how much psilocybin were they administering and through which method ?
which strain ?
how frequently ?

link it up bro :thumbup:

--------------------

---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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jivJaN
yes

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,054
Last seen: 1 day, 11 hours

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: jivJaN]
#13158112 - 09/07/10 12:22 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

sis

--------------------

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jivJaN
yes

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,054
Last seen: 1 day, 11 hours

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: jivJaN]
#13158115 - 09/07/10 12:23 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

lol
i just realized you were involved in the research so u can just share what you know ?
sry for three replies :bigjoint:

--------------------

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Led Zeppelin
Tripper

Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 2,140
Last seen: 14 hours, 4 minutes

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: jivJaN]
#13158282 - 09/07/10 01:58 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

This is amazing! Fuck yeah! shrooms FTW!!!!

:psychsplit:

Now lets study some

:lsdabc:

--------------------

^{If acid puts you in the drivers seat, and mushrooms put you in the passenger seat...then DXM puts you in the trunk}

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AlteredAgain
Open Sourcerer

Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 10,910
Loc: Sol III

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: Dan4th]
#13158376 - 09/07/10 03:49 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Safe physiological and psychological responses were documented during treatment sessions. There were no clinically significant adverse events with psilocybin.

DUH!

no but really, it's about time we get on some serious research in mainstream centers. we've allowed territorial politics to hinder significant progress in psychedelic research for decades enough!

:1up:

--------------------
"I don't do drugs. I am drugs. Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic." Dali

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LanLord
Stranger

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1,560
Loc: San Mateo, Ca. USA
Last seen: 17 hours, 14 minutes

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: jivJaN]
#13158776 - 09/07/10 08:12 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
Awesome.

I want more details though.
how much psilocybin were they administering and through which method ?
which strain ?
how frequently ?

link it up bro

I don't know if I can answer for this test, however, when I was at the MAPS conference earlier this year I sat in on some of the clinical trial sessions. If I recall correctly they were administering psilocybin in pill (or caplet) form (one patient even showed their prescption bottle with the name psilocybin on the label). The dosages were relatively large considering the threashold is 5 mg for most people, I believe they were administering 45 mg at a time. The patients were in a very relaxed setting (they had a special room setup) with a bed, blankets, music, 2 doctors and a nurse with regular readings of temp, BP, pulse and mind set.

--------------------
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.

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LanLord
Stranger

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1,560
Loc: San Mateo, Ca. USA
Last seen: 17 hours, 14 minutes

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: Led Zeppelin]
#13158784 - 09/07/10 08:16 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Led Zeppelin said:
This is amazing! Fuck yeah! shrooms FTW!!!!

Now lets study some

LSD probably won't make it into clinical trials for several reasons.
1 - stigma (Tim L effect)
2 - time, it takes way WAY too long to make it through an entire session, most doctors and nurses feel the 4 to 6 hours of psilocybin is long enough, they sure don't want to go for a marathon 10 to 12 hour ride with a patient.
3 - psilocybin, DMT and ayahuasca seem to be doing the job, no need to go with LSD.

--------------------
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.

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sve
ursus

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 1,282
Loc: nj
Last seen: 4 days, 2 hours

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: LanLord]
#13158823 - 09/07/10 08:34 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Nice. I've read some stuff about psilocybin being used to treat headaches and would love to see a study done on that. I hope that the results of this study lead to additional research.

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OneMoreRobot3021
punky jewster

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 60,572
Loc: new york city
Last seen: 20 hours, 1 minute

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: jivJaN]
#13159035 - 09/07/10 09:51 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:

which strain ?

Synthetic.

--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.
-Erik Davis

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LanLord
Stranger

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1,560
Loc: San Mateo, Ca. USA
Last seen: 17 hours, 14 minutes

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: sve]
#13159044 - 09/07/10 09:53 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

sve said:
Nice. I've read some stuff about psilocybin being used to treat headaches and would love to see a study done on that. I hope that the results of this study lead to additional research.

Ya know, there was a session on headaches, I was there but honestly didn't take in that much information.

I would imagine that for cluster and migraine headaches, you could get either relief or severe pain reaction - this might very from one person to another. I doubt that stress headaches would have any reaction at all (other than less stress because you found a good buzz! - I'd be less stressed!).

--------------------
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.

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OneMoreRobot3021
punky jewster

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 60,572
Loc: new york city
Last seen: 20 hours, 1 minute

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: LanLord]
#13159051 - 09/07/10 09:56 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LanLord said:
LSD probably won't make it into clinical trials for several reasons.
1 - stigma (Tim L effect)
2 - time, it takes way WAY too long to make it through an entire session, most doctors and nurses feel the 4 to 6 hours of psilocybin is long enough, they sure don't want to go for a marathon 10 to 12 hour ride with a patient.
3 - psilocybin, DMT and ayahuasca seem to be doing the job, no need to go with LSD.

? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/09/27/MNEN19SNGD.DTL ?

Edited by OneMoreRobot3021 (09/07/10 09:57 AM)

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LanLord
Stranger

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1,560
Loc: San Mateo, Ca. USA
Last seen: 17 hours, 14 minutes

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
#13159057 - 09/07/10 09:57 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OneMoreRobot3021 said:
Quote:

jivJaN said:

which strain ?

Synthetic.

I don't have an answer to this question. It may have been synthetic, I don't recall that being addressed. But it's a great question.

--------------------
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.

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LanLord
Stranger

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1,560
Loc: San Mateo, Ca. USA
Last seen: 17 hours, 14 minutes

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
#13159065 - 09/07/10 09:59 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OneMoreRobot3021 said:
Quote:

LanLord said:
LSD probably won't make it into clinical trials for several reasons.
1 - stigma (Tim L effect)
2 - time, it takes way WAY too long to make it through an entire session, most doctors and nurses feel the 4 to 6 hours of psilocybin is long enough, they sure don't want to go for a marathon 10 to 12 hour ride with a patient.
3 - psilocybin, DMT and ayahuasca seem to be doing the job, no need to go with LSD.

? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/09/27/MNEN19SNGD.DTL ?

I get item not found.

Are you disputing LSD use?

I am not stating my opinion, I am just passing MAPS information. EDIT (I should state, this was what I remember from the MAPS conference, not necessarily MAPS information)/EDIT.

If you want LSD used in these studies, I am not against it. I'd volunteer!

Edited by LanLord (09/07/10 10:19 AM)

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OneMoreRobot3021
punky jewster

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 60,572
Loc: new york city
Last seen: 20 hours, 1 minute

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: LanLord]
#13159130 - 09/07/10 10:17 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I fixed the link, check it again. LSD is making its way back to the lab.

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sunshine
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/03/04
Posts: 23,114
Loc: Upstate penitentiary
Last seen: 4 months, 21 hours

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: Dan4th]
#13159320 - 09/07/10 11:03 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Dan4th said:
Here's a link to the abstract: http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/archgenpsychiatry.2010.116

We want more about the concrete results.

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LanLord
Stranger

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1,560
Loc: San Mateo, Ca. USA
Last seen: 17 hours, 14 minutes

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: sunshine]
#13159503 - 09/07/10 11:49 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

sunshine said:
Quote:

Dan4th said:
Here's a link to the abstract: http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/archgenpsychiatry.2010.116

We want more about the concrete results.

Again, I can't tell you results from this test, but at the MAPS conference, all results were positive.

Granted, they might not be willing to discuss the negative side, but from what I was hearing, it was not only positive, it was awesome results!

People dealing with terminal cancer, post traumatic stress disorder, and other issues were helped. I gotta think that's a good thing.

I have never understood why the govt. thinks certain chemicals are not acceptable when dealing with discomfort. I went through a horrible bone disorder, and would prefer never taking pain meds again if there was a better way to deal with the physical and mental side of it.

--------------------
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.

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sunshine
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/03/04
Posts: 23,114
Loc: Upstate penitentiary
Last seen: 4 months, 21 hours

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: LanLord]
#13159511 - 09/07/10 11:51 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I agree.

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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 7,905

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: Dan4th]
#13159758 - 09/07/10 12:46 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I would be curious about the outcome measures chosen for study.

I'd question the relevance of some of those. Beck depression, POMS, STAI...etc.

--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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weiliiinmyyard
blueberry poptart

Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 4,135
Loc: SE USA

Last seen: 2 months, 19 days

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: badchad]
#13161032 - 09/07/10 04:35 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Isn't there a big difference between synthetic heroin and the real thing? I wonder how much different the synthetic is. I bet it's great with none of the other psychoactive alkaloids in mushrooms

I wonder how much more pleasant synthetic varieties can be.

--------------------

"Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword"

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curenado
73rd Man

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 2,601
Loc: North Central Arkansas
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: weiliiinmyyard]
#13161727 - 09/07/10 06:53 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Synthetic doesn't seem to be as potent, if they are giving nine times the threshold dose. Probably more like truffles or crystals - there, but doesn't really grab you by the boo-boo. Just specuating though.

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

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Mycophyte
Outkast

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 81
Last seen: 3 months, 25 days

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: weiliiinmyyard]
#13161888 - 09/07/10 07:18 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I'm always amazed at the surprise generated by the results of these studies. People have been medicating themselves with all natural plant and animal products for thousands of years, learning the hard way what works and what doesn't. The Americans were using psilocybin as a medical and spiritual treatment long before someone's 17 year old son drove the Beamer into the garage door while tripping on shrooms. It always seems disrespectful to our ancestors to first outright ban and then grudgingly readmit into respectability something they used and treated with a great deal of respect and reverence. Maybe the old prejudices are finally falling to reality

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JT
amphetamine dream

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 6,747
Loc: athens

Last seen: 21 days, 15 hours

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: Mycophyte]
#13161951 - 09/07/10 07:29 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

pertty sweet

my dad emailed me this today!

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curenado
73rd Man

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 2,601
Loc: North Central Arkansas
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: JT]
#13162056 - 09/07/10 07:41 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

hmmm.....or reality is finally falling :lol:

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

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skatealex2
/////////////////////////////

Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 16,744
Last seen: 7 hours, 13 minutes

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
#13162301 - 09/07/10 08:25 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OneMoreRobot3021 said:
I fixed the link, check it again. LSD is making its way back to the lab.

The future of lsd is exciting. I'm guessing it won't happen anytime soon but it would be amazing to see medical LSD being used for treatments/therapies in the near future

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weiliiinmyyard
blueberry poptart

Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 4,135
Loc: SE USA

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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: skatealex2]
#13162626 - 09/07/10 09:19 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

LSD will fuck your life up. Lol.

--------------------

"Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword"

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BrownThumb
Versed in sterility

Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 67
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: weiliiinmyyard]

1
#13163434 - 09/08/10 12:54 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Hi everyone.

The study is pretty interesting. BTW, they used synthetic psilocybin administered in 00 capsules. I have downloaded the complete article in PDF, and made it available at:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5618396/Psilocybin%20in%20cancer%20patients.pdf

(you can read it in your browswer or right click the link to download)

I have also posted a photo that summarizes some of their results:

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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs

Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 days, 24 minutes

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: curenado]

1
#13163662 - 09/08/10 03:51 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

curenado said:
Synthetic doesn't seem to be as potent, if they are giving nine times the threshold dose. Probably more like truffles or crystals - there, but doesn't really grab you by the boo-boo. Just specuating though.

A chemical is a chemical is a chemical, etc. The same.

--------------------

All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug:

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curenado
73rd Man

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 2,601
Loc: North Central Arkansas
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: MushroomTrip]

1
#13163888 - 09/08/10 06:25 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

curenado said:
Synthetic doesn't seem to be as potent, if they are giving nine times the threshold dose. Probably more like truffles or crystals - there, but doesn't really grab you by the boo-boo. Just specuating though.

A chemical is a chemical is a chemical, etc. The same.

Wrong. That is a generalized and ignorant statement. Just because it suits you. It's not even true objectively let alone subjectively.

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

Edited by curenado (09/08/10 06:27 AM)

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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs

Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 days, 24 minutes

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: curenado]
#13163934 - 09/08/10 06:52 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

How the hell does that suit me? Do you even understand the implications and meaning of your words?
Please explain how the same chemical can be different. I hope you realize how ridiculous this sounds.

--------------------

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sve
ursus

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 1,282
Loc: nj
Last seen: 4 days, 2 hours

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: MushroomTrip]
#13163969 - 09/08/10 07:07 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Maybe a whole mushroom might have other stuff in it that affects how it works but those other things wouldn't be present in a pill containing just psilocybin so the experience might be different. There's also a chance that eating a whole mushroom has a different effect on some people's mental/spiritual/ect state than taking a pill. :shrug:

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fungusmuncher
rabbit chaser

Registered: 03/07/09
Posts: 495

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: BrownThumb]

1
#13163970 - 09/08/10 07:07 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BrownThumb said:
Hi everyone.

The study is pretty interesting. BTW, they used synthetic psilocybin administered in 00 capsules. I have downloaded the complete article in PDF, and made it available at:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5618396/Psilocybin%20in%20cancer%20patients.pdf

(you can read it in your browswer or right click the link to download)

I have also posted a photo that summarizes some of their results:

Thanks for the article, good read.

Post Extras:

curenado
73rd Man

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 2,601
Loc: North Central Arkansas
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: MushroomTrip]

3
#13163971 - 09/08/10 07:08 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I realize you are in a serious grown up forum and your sad trolling/pub debate habits of
<<I hope you realize how ridiculous this sounds.>>

Won't help at all. There are numerous designations in organic chemistry and the pill is not the same as other forms. Neither is DMT which has numerous designations.
No one even needs to argue about it because this is a place of people experienced in multiple psychedelics and multiple forms of the "same" psychedelic.
Your statement might be "good enough tripe for trash" but it's not accurate at all.

<<Please explain how the same chemical can be different>>

It is well known, I have already said above and go educate your own self - nobody owes you anything in explanation or justification. It's not like it matters what you say?

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

Post Extras:

sve
ursus

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 1,282
Loc: nj
Last seen: 4 days, 2 hours

Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: curenado]
#13164016 - 09/08/10 07:21 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I feel like it might be a bad idea to post right now because people seem not all too friendly about this topic but I'm a bit confused. I'm not experienced with psychedelics. I just like to run around in the forest and know the names of the things I find so I'd very much appreciate if you could explain this.

Is it that the method of taking something causes different effects? Like taking a pill vs. getting a shot?

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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs

Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: curenado]
#13164028 - 09/08/10 07:24 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

curenado said:
I realize you are in a serious grown up forum and your sad trolling/pub debate habits of

How amazing it is that while you're saying all that, you also say:

Quote:

Wrong. That is a generalized and ignorant statement. Just because it suits you. It's not even true objectively let alone subjectively.

and

Quote:

No one even needs to argue about it because this is a place of people experienced in multiple psychedelics and multiple forms of the "same" psychedelic.
Your statement might be "good enough tripe for trash" but it's not accurate at all.

Am I the only one seeing the irony in all this? :lol:

What kind of a grown-up discussion can it be when your first reply is "wrong!". That's not stupid and childish at all. :rolleyes:

When trying to mimic your superiority, please first consider your own language because otherwise nobody will take you seriously. And spare me with the whole experienced trippers elitism - it's pretty obvious that you use it only to veil your own lack of knowledge.
Of course nobody ows me anything, which is I never demanded for anything. It only made sense to me, since you were so eager to point out that how wrong and ignorant my statement was, that you will also provide an actual explanation. My mistake since this isn't my first encounter with you, and each time there was an exchange between us you were more completely unable to make a valid point, insulting me, all while pretending that I was the one who was being disrespectful.

--------------------

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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs

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Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: sve]
#13164035 - 09/08/10 07:27 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

sve said:
Maybe a whole mushroom might have other stuff in it that affects how it works but those other things wouldn't be present in a pill containing just psilocybin so the experience might be different. There's also a chance that eating a whole mushroom has a different effect on some people's mental/spiritual/ect state than taking a pill.

Indeed.
But that's because the whole mushroom contains more than one chemical, which far from saying that one single chemical is different from itself. But that's not what curenado would have you believe. :wink:

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curenado
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: sve]

1
#13164036 - 09/08/10 07:27 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

<<Is it that the method of taking something causes different effects? Like taking a pill vs. getting a shot?>>

There is that variable. Also include the form used to make the pill or shot (as it were) and that is just for the synthetics. Organics add even more variables to consider.

Subjectively and in organic forms truffles, crystals and whole fruit have differences and not all subtle ones. The trip quality and features differ and differ in degree.

I was only speculating that their form may be different owing to the seemingly large amounts they were giving.

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

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MushroomTrip
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: curenado]
#13164046 - 09/08/10 07:29 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

curenado said:
I was only speculating

Then stop trying to turn it into a fact.

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curenado
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: MushroomTrip]

1
#13164056 - 09/08/10 07:33 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

sve said:
Maybe a whole mushroom might have other stuff in it that affects how it works but those other things wouldn't be present in a pill containing just psilocybin so the experience might be different. There's also a chance that eating a whole mushroom has a different effect on some people's mental/spiritual/ect state than taking a pill.

Indeed.
But that's because the whole mushroom contains more than one chemical, which far from saying that one single chemical is different from itself. But that's not what curenado would have you believe.

No, that's you twisting around and trying to bail out. :lol:

You came in, said a general statement and it was worthless compared to the posting.
I have tried to be clear. Besides, if we do know each other then clearly you just couldn't resist a opp to troll and you failed at it. That's all. :lol:

This isn't a stupid pub debate :laugh2:

go troll someone stupid enough to talk to you :lol:

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

Edited by curenado (09/08/10 07:34 AM)

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MushroomTrip
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: curenado]
#13164073 - 09/08/10 07:39 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Besides, if we do know each other then clearly you just couldn't resist a opp to troll and you failed at it.

Which makes perfect sense since you're the one who started flaming. :lol:

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badchad
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: curenado]
#13164095 - 09/08/10 07:44 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

sve said:
Is it that the method of taking something causes different effects? Like taking a pill vs. getting a shot?

Could be. Route of administration plays a large role in many drugs, most notably due to speed of onset and first pass metabolism.

When clearing a submission to perform human experiments, one must provide very extensive data on how "pure" the compound is. An enormous amount of standards and analyses need to be provided to show that a drug administered to humans is "pure".

Theoreticlly, extracted psilocybin should be identical to synthesized psilocybin. One might make some (relatively) wild speculation on proportions of enantiomers or racemates that could affect the subjective profile between the two.

However, while that may affect potency, it shouldn't affect efficacy, and certainly wouldn't be expected to affect the outcome measures used in the study.

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MushroomTrip
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: badchad]
#13164116 - 09/08/10 07:51 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Cool beans. :mushroom2:

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Led Zeppelin
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: MushroomTrip]

1
#13164364 - 09/08/10 09:09 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Why must we argue in this thread. this is good news!

:mushroom2:

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^{If acid puts you in the drivers seat, and mushrooms put you in the passenger seat...then DXM puts you in the trunk}

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Dan4th
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: sve]
#13165481 - 09/08/10 01:37 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I can report that the subjects in the study did not experience the nausea and general GI upset that is commom with mushroom ingestion. With pure psilocybin at the 0.2mg/kg dose level, they did not describe the anxious feelings that often accompany coming on with mushrooms, either. The come down was gentle, too.

Participants who had prior experience taking mushrooms (some were psychedelic naive) reported fewer open-eye visuals with pure psilocybin. However, several reported vivid closed-eye visions.

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Ubitsa
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: MushroomTrip]
#13165613 - 09/08/10 02:02 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
A chemical is a chemical is a chemical, etc. The same.

I know where you're coming from but I think you and curendo are arguing around a misunderstanding.
Curnedo is just saying that there can be many other factors that affect an experience besides 'chemical'.

In the context of the original quote, I think it's generally accepted that eating a pure chemical will give different results from taking it in its natural form, due to other alkaloids present, among other factors.

For another example, some people can eat up to ~200mg DMT, but you wouldn't like an IV dose of 200mg DMT.

Curendo is not saying that a chemical can magically change its effects for different people in different ways or anything.

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MushroomTrip
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: Ubitsa]

1
#13165627 - 09/08/10 02:05 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Oh, I agree with that, but what he said was that synthetic isn't as potent as natural, when the discussion was in reference to a single chemical: psilocybin. :shrug:

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Freedom
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: Dan4th]
#13166097 - 09/08/10 03:19 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

looks like the study is already lighting up the news outlets...

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Dan4th
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: Freedom]
#13166424 - 09/08/10 04:15 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

http://news.google.com/news/story?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&topic=m&ncl=dxi7-DbvTaVLqIMmk4vTDoakHkf4M

It's wild how many media sources picked up this story!

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uninc4life2010
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: jivJaN]
#13168618 - 09/08/10 11:36 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
Awesome.

I want more details though.
how much psilocybin were they administering and through which method ?
which strain ?
how frequently ?

link it up bro

no strain, they administered a dose of lab produced psilocybin because they would not be able to get consistent results from ingestion of actual mushrooms. The potency varies, the ratios of psilocin and psilocybin baeocystin too. Baeocystin was obviously not used in this study. As for the dose, they described it as moderate, .2 milligrams/kilogram of body weight. I have no clue what that equals in dry weight.

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Ubitsa
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: uninc4life2010]
#13169403 - 09/09/10 07:58 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

uninc4life2010 said: .2 milligrams/kilogram of body weight. I have no clue what that equals in dry weight.

.2mg/kg for me(80kg) works out to 16mg Psilocybin, or ~30g fresh mushrooms, which i'd roughly translate to 3g dried.

So, a pretty decent dose.

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curenado
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: Ubitsa]
#13169448 - 09/09/10 08:09 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

But nothing "heroic" - that is good. We consider up to 2gm safe for most people.
Saw a retinitis patient lay on a couch and laugh hysterically for two hours after 1.5gm. She's a liteweight, but the therapeutic effect was achieved even at the lo-dose.
I used to think that the dose for a physical use would have to be higher but actually in a number of cases it hasn't seemed to be like that.

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

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curenado
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: MushroomTrip]
#13169459 - 09/09/10 08:13 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Oh, I agree with that, but what he said was that synthetic isn't as potent as natural, when the discussion was in reference to a single chemical: psilocybin.

I did not.

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: curenado]
#13169518 - 09/09/10 08:28 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Right.
This should explain why you said my statement was wrong, ignorant, that it was "good enough tripe for trash", and that experienced trippers know best, all while refusing to explain the mechanism through which you were right in saying that a synthetic chemical is weaker than a natural chemical.
This should also explain why you then called me a troll, making it sound like I seriously disturbed the otherwise academic discussion that you were entertaining, and telling me that I should go troll someone stupid enough to talk to me.
But now I believe you didn't flame, since you make it sound so credible. :wink:

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OneMoreRobot3021
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: MushroomTrip]

2
#13169539 - 09/09/10 08:33 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

How about you guys take your little argument to PM's or something instead of continuing to derail this universal board-wide sticky that is calling to attention some positive news and positive press? That would be soooo awesome k thx bye.

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sunshine
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
#13170970 - 09/09/10 02:03 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Did anyone call their mom after the trip?

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Mycophyte
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: curenado]
#13172416 - 09/09/10 07:32 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

curenado said:
hmmm.....or reality is finally falling

Ohh, it all makes sense now. None of it makes sense! :flowstone:

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byrn0ut
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: Dan4th]
#13176164 - 09/10/10 03:29 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

From the Medscape.com article that talked about the study as well...
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/728185

""All subjects tolerated the treatment sessions well, with no indication of severe anxiety or a 'bad trip'," write the authors."

I've had a handful of bad trips, but I no longer see them as a reason not to enjoy mushrooms. For me that sort of serious anxiety is usually brought on by something that I had suppressed and had been avoiding dealing with. There's no conscious effort to conceal those emotions when you're tripping so they come pouring out and it can be very uncomfortable, sometimes for the full duration of the trip.

A bad trip in my experience is often finding out you had acted selfishly, or been unkind... revealing your SELF to yourself and sometimes you don't like what you see!

Even if the anxiety is proven to be a chemical side effect, that sort of "why do i feel bad" self-examination helps me try to be a better person.

--------------------
Ask me about converting to a mini-martha!
.. or, dealing with dry climates.

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debianlinux
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: byrn0ut]
#13178843 - 09/11/10 05:28 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I don't use the term "bad trip"; I use the term "difficult trip".

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To be honest, I fear the OTD. ---TheMadConductor

Now I'm gonna have to start getting down on my knees and blowing mushrooms... ---RogerRabbit

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curenado
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: debianlinux]
#13179142 - 09/11/10 07:56 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I remember terms like
Psychotomimetic
Delusional imprinting
Manic obsessions
Personality disassociation
Schizoform embolism
Hope everyone is careful out there. Remember, it always starts with the "ooohing! and the awwwing!"....

But I was relieved to see the dose conversion, and that they were using the lower end of the moderate range.
Physical benefit ranges with most whole fruits and decoctions begin at about .5gm to 2gm, including perceieved "psychological" ones, such as the temporary mood elevator effect, that are at the supplement level.

So this demonstrates that it does take a little more to reach the desired or "therapeutic" (if you will) level in conscious/emotional psychological uses.
That means that the psychological features are actually the side effect, or secondary effect and the primary one(s) are the physical features which are, in many cases, sub-hallucinogenic.

What I am saying is that if you are sick you can take this medicine, but if you take too much you will see stars (or talk to Jesus or ?)

If you are trying to use this medicine for matters of the head or heart, it gets riskier. So does the chance of the side effects being negative, as you approach doses that many of us take for granted.

That is a contributing big difference in this use. Most of these people never tripped before, and most of us have broader and much higher dose experience. I suppose though that most people would be alright even if they were a little over the threshold.

In all cases, when you use lidocaine for a physical injury you have a crash cart handy in case of side effects. I am sure they have some version of mess management for the incidents that get by the prevention screen, or manifest ex post.

But that was what caught me this round - the thing most people are interested in about psilocybes is actually the side effects of over consumption. :lol:

Which of course is good :lol:

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

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jivJaN
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: curenado]
#13179273 - 09/11/10 08:45 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

i wanna know why people see eyes , and why i see them eeeevery time i eat the mushroom :bigjoint:

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bourndead
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: jivJaN]
#13179344 - 09/11/10 09:11 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
i wanna know why people see eyes , and why i see them eeeevery time i eat the mushroom

I used to see faces in everything on LSD and Psilocybin, and after my first few trips I'd still see them in many things...sober.

I remember reading that people see things like faces and eyes because it's just an associative/familiarity thing...we're seeing them all the time in our daily lives and they just bleed into other things after awhile.

I used to swear I saw faces, some tortured, some happy, in wood, trees etc. Was on a trip thinking that it was the souls of the dead which had been returned to the earth and reborn into trees.

--------------------
"I don't have a God complex, you've got a simple God"

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SuperD
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: bourndead]
#13180338 - 09/11/10 01:03 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

My field of vision has been covered entirely by intricate geometric shapes before, but I don't recall ever seeing faces of any type on any of my trips.

--------------------
I'd like you to meet my local drug dealer

Bruce Campbell for a day! said: Go misidentify a mushroom please.

I'm a psilovibin' psilocybeing :vibin:

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nasem
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: SuperD]
#13181144 - 09/11/10 04:41 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I saw my grandfather's corpse floating above me in the dark. That scared me shitless

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I dont know

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Psilly Rabbit
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: nasem]
#13184518 - 09/12/10 12:25 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Apologies for not posting sooner, I have been so busy. I just wanted to say that this is a great move forward for science.
This study has the potential to re-awaken a an area of science that stigma and mis-information had almost eradicated. It is
great to see individuals in the professional community and in the media embracing these studies in a new light without all the
stigma associated with the use of and I quote, "Illegal" substances. Perhaps one day they could do a study of N,N-Dimethyltryptamine
in terminal patients.

:smile:

--------------------
"But first the notion that man has a body distinct from his soul is to be expunged; this I shall do, by printing in the infernal method, by corrosives, which in Hell are salutary and medicinal, melting apparent surfaces away, and displaying the infinite which was hid. If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern."

-William Blake

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idunno
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: Psilly Rabbit]
#13184579 - 09/12/10 12:36 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

The same chemical- synthetic or natural could be totally different, There are many analogs, mirror reverse molecules etc, in laymans terms-
Like the difference between, sativa and indica or Pans and cubes- same stuff different effects. Edit: just like the different types of Dmt isomers, Cocaine isomers etc ie, hydrocloride ,bromide and other bases etc. BUT IN SHORT YEA FOR THE STUDY

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The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic.. Josef Stalin

Edited by idunno (09/12/10 12:39 PM)

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MushroomTrip
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: idunno]
#13184600 - 09/12/10 12:41 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

The difference between sativa and indica comes from the varying quantities of alkaloids in them, and the concentration of THC.

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AUtrippin
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: MushroomTrip]
#13186801 - 09/12/10 07:28 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

This is great. Isn't John's Hopkins also doing a study?

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Dan4th
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: AUtrippin]

1
#13187852 - 09/13/10 12:34 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

The New York Times ran the following announcement this week about findings published in the Archives of General Psychiatry from the Harbor-UCLA Medical Center psilocybin study:

Magic Mushrooms’ May Help Cancer Patients, Study Says
By REUTERS
Published: September 6, 2010

The hallucinogen psilocybin, known by the street name magic mushrooms, may help ease the anxiety that often accompanies late-stage cancer, researchers said Monday. Cancer patients given a moderate dose of psilocybin, whose effects are similar to those of LSD, were measurably less depressed six months after a single dose compared with a placebo, researchers reported in the Archives of General Psychiatry. The pilot study of 12 patients was devised to prove that hallucinogenic drugs could be studied safely as a way to relieve the distress of advanced cancer. It revives a field of study from the 1950s to the early 1970s that suggested some patients experienced powerful and sustained improvement in mood and anxiety from hallucinogens. The studies were abandoned in the early 1970s when drugs like LSD became used on the streets, leading to strict federal laws regulating them.

A version of this brief appeared in print on September 7, 2010, on page A15 of the New York edition.

What's important to remember is that this study is treating anxiety and NOT cancer.If you are curious about similar studies that are currently active, here's a link to info on a study at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine: http://www.cancer-insight.org For additional information about FDA-approved, registered studies, try www.clinicaltrials.gov (search for key word "psilocybin")

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Dan4th
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: AUtrippin]

1
#13187855 - 09/13/10 12:35 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Yep. Johns Hopkins is recruiting: : http://www.cancer-insight.org

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FleshCap
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: Dan4th]
#13190780 - 09/13/10 05:11 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

The article indicated that the purpowof the study was to determine if mushrooms were safe or not... I think the researchers knew the answer already. This study is part of an ongoing effort to make psychedelics more accepted in the scientific community.

--------------------

I'll mail you FREE Mushroom Stickers & Zip Bags, Click Here.
Click here to visit the SACRED MUSHROOM ART GALLERY.

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Synesthetic
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: FleshCap]
#13196752 - 09/14/10 08:19 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Just to clear a few things up...

Psilocybin, I'm pretty sure, isn't synthesized but extracted from P. cubensis.

And heroin isn't natural, but not fully synthetic, either. Acetic Anhydride + Morphine (which is natural) = diacetyl morphine (heroin).

The isolated psychoactives don't work the same as when taken in their natural forms because the natural forms have other alkaloids and other chemicals that affect the brain and body in different ways.

That's why THC alone causes high anxiety and other horrible things but THC + the other cannabinoids produce all of those wonderful effects everyone loves.

--------------------

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curenado
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: Synesthetic]
#13196914 - 09/14/10 08:52 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

<<Psilocybin, I'm pretty sure, isn't synthesized but extracted from P. cubensis.>>

Hofman synthesized it, and I don't know what form they are using with certainty but I believe it is the synthetic. One of them will be back soon to say...

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Synesthetic
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: curenado]
#13198006 - 09/15/10 05:45 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Even so, there are only a few cases where a chemical compound can have the same atomic makeup but a different structure, which causes it to act differently.

If Hoffman was trying to truly synthesize psilocybin, he'd know not to accidentally make it the way it isn't in nature because doing so can have very unpredictable results.

For example...Water is usually arranged HOH, but if you add some DC you can force the molecules to go OHH, which is a gas called Brown's Gas and burns extremely hot and explosively.

Another example is a morning sickness drug that was experimented with sometime in the 50s or 70s (my history sucks I'm sorry). One version of the drug is very effective and harmless to the child, but the mirror image (chiral) version of the drug will still control the sickness at the cost of interfering so much with the fetus that it's born with horrific birth defects.

Chemists, especially those involved in pharmacology, know better than to screw around like that. If it's called psilocybin, it's the same psilocybin that's in mushrooms on a molecular level

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curenado
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: Synesthetic]
#13199327 - 09/15/10 12:02 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Oh yeah - I was not disagreeing with you by any means. In fact you are so right that medically, we just have to identify those features and responses and factor them in and it isn't impossible but it does require more effort.
The pills Hofman synthesized were at first rejected by Maria Sabina because their onset was slower. Later, she said the pills would let her do vigils even when the mushrooms were not in season.
So, the synthetic must be somewhat effective at least in the non-physical areas.

What I would like to know (if we ever get done holding stuffed animals and talking about our feelings) is simple; does the synthetic exhibit the same effectiveness in intractable infection, tumors and pain that the real deal does. If it does, is it equal or better?
Because not everyone tolerates psilocybin in adequate therapeutic doses for some things, but they might be able to tolerate the pill, especially if we "turn down" the side effects part.

I have gotten less "Grrr!" about the psychologists (not much though..) but still, the real purpose of psilocybes is for healing sickness. The rest is side effects and you can grin all day long and not change my mind about that. Everything else is getting way into the risk zone and ripe for rampant abuse.
Like one Shroomerite said "Way too much power" for people to be using on people after such a fashion.

But anyway - you have a disease that will kill you if not gotten rid of so what do you pick?

This:

(under construction - Wrong Psychologist :cool:

)

(Dr. Roland Griffiths, not pictured here, Studies the occasion of mystical-type experiences having substantial and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance) Though I think he accepts believers only for his data, whereas I would throw them all in a fish tank and count the ones who said "I saw Jesus!" as opposed to the ones who just giggled and saw the pretty colors (about 1 out of three I believe - untested) Also, I would never allow the risky "God in a pill!" thing to be attached to me because that to me would be bogus. We do not know the whole of why these things happen and should not try to create the illusion of it. I also think it's funny to give people a psychotomimetic and then say it was more than their own self and reflections. God is not in the pill anymore than in every leaf or bit of salt. That is bad psychiatry.

This!
(PICTURE REMOVED because Dan4th claims it is different than it looks or has been in the press for the public - see later posts. But this using them on terminals is about as open as the "Food Safety Bill" so until that changes....I'm still me.)

This is the guy that I don't want getting ahold of one of my patients with his "Here, eat this mushroom and you won't worry so much about being terminal!" ("Dr. Euthanasia Parlor")
When the answer is:
"Here, a lot of people have fun giggling with their friends on this mushroom which is also going to help get rid of your terminal thing there. Don't eat just once! Oh, and by the way, no matter what hype you may have read, not everyone is obligated to imaginary guide their trip on any spiritual thing and that is really not my business. Some people just have a good time and enjoy the pretty colors. It's a side effect. If something neat does happen, that's you and God's personal business as well."

or This:

Savage/Physician - Cancer-stomp-the-shit-out-of-er

Because the former serves God and Country by making you feel better about dying, but the plain one that knows ya says "How 'bout fuck the fairy tales and Stanislov Groff and lets just not die? MMk? How 'bout that?"

I guess it just looks too much like "Get 'em high and let 'em die" to me, and my patients would be like "Fuck that! Get me high to fix me if you will, but get 'er done!"

But - I have decided to be less vehement in my disdain of psychological applications. (WHAT?!) Yes, and why? Because I HATE the drugs they kill them with in hospice. I would rather see someone already in hospice and "committed" to die have that type of care than "mellaril" and some of the other atrocious stuff I see. Yes, I would rather, if I am going to lose one for sure, see them with Dr. Grinny Pants (not that sinister Grob, someone like Griffiths) eating psilocybin than being grotesquely medically euthanized and laying there in "mellaril misery" unable to complain or ask for help.

I lost one not long ago, and those hospice vultures started circling (they keep pretty clear of me though - heh) and what did they bring? Mellaril! Sure, my patient looked "quiet" to his family, but what was going on inside still makes me sick to contemplate.

Plus, "Johnny TouchFaith" died in his hammock at home of pancreatic cancer, drifting away with Maria Sabina instead of poisoned with FUCKING MELLARIL!
...and that broke my heart. Made me look at this use in a different way, as long as it is ONLY for those committed to dying - everybody else needs to forget fairy tales and psychology and get fucking better, if they are a clever cabbage.

and yes, if someone said "I am going to get better and I am taking care of it, I would just like to break up this head a little. I promise no one will tell me how "ok it is to die" if I go do their thing." I would approve of that too.

Generally, for health, some giggles and a little shock - you don't need a prescription for that and you know, until somebody breaks the fifty year old retarded paradigm on the hill, psilocybe nor anything else will ever be there because "It makes us happy and content". Somehow, that concept just offends the hell out of hypocrite legislators.

Edited by curenado (09/20/10 10:27 PM)

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BlueDruid
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: Synesthetic]
#13199572 - 09/15/10 01:10 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Synesthetic said:

Another example is a morning sickness drug that was experimented with sometime in the 50s or 70s (my history sucks I'm sorry). One version of the drug is very effective and harmless to the child, but the mirror image (chiral) version of the drug will still control the sickness at the cost of interfering so much with the fetus that it's born with horrific birth defects.

You're thinking of Thalidomide, used commercially in the '50's & withdrawn in the early '60's

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sunshine
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: bourndead]
#13199905 - 09/15/10 02:15 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

What they really need, I presume, is a drug that makes you fearless! They could inject it all the time until you died. That's DEA style.

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ehtdaedlufetarg
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: Dan4th]
#13200097 - 09/15/10 02:51 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Dan4th said:
http://news.google.com/news/story?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&topic=m&ncl=dxi7-DbvTaVLqIMmk4vTDoakHkf4M

It's wild how many media sources picked up this story!

Fun Observation. The article towards the bottom of that page on the sie "myfoxorlando.com" Uses a picture of P. mexicana in the article. I knew i recognized the picture from this site, and sure enough it was taken by Cactu.

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curenado
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: ehtdaedlufetarg]
#13200489 - 09/15/10 04:27 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ehtdaedlufetarg said:
Quote:

Dan4th said:
http://news.google.com/news/story?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&topic=m&ncl=dxi7-DbvTaVLqIMmk4vTDoakHkf4M

It's wild how many media sources picked up this story!

Fun Observation. The article towards the bottom of that page on the sie "myfoxorlando.com" Uses a picture of P. mexicana in the article. I knew i recognized the picture from this site, and sure enough it was taken by Cactu.

That is cool!

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UroboroS
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: curenado]
#13202992 - 09/16/10 06:22 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I'm all for research in this field.

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Kapitthaka Mudra
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: LanLord]
#13204212 - 09/16/10 11:41 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

well actually, http://maps.org/

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latherdome
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: curenado]
#13204488 - 09/16/10 12:30 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

curenado said:I have gotten less "Grrr!" about the psychologists (not much though..) but still, the real purpose of psilocybes is for healing sickness.

I hear you on the potential for abuse. But as one who has been helped rather mightily beyond relief of bodily sickness (of physical healing I am neither skeptical nor convinced), I must ask why you want to limit the "real purpose" to one?

Quote:

curenado said:But anyway - you have a disease that will kill you if not gotten rid of so what do you pick?

This:

Psychologist/Philosopher "It's OK to die"

or This:

Savage/Physician - Cancer-stomp-the-shit-out-of-er

Wait, Griffiths (above) is the one doing work on HEALTHY people, advancing psilocybin as for the betterment of the well instead of the healing of the sick or just the comfort of the dying, as Grob. I have no beef with either. Seems unfair of you to lump them together.

I've read your stuff here about physical healing occasioned by mushrooms, mostly quotations from other sources. Interesting, for sure. Here you are stating pretty flatly that shrooms cure cancer, without much in the way of rigorous clinical evidence such as "the psychologists" are offering for their claims. Again, does it have to be either/or? Are you implying that it does, and that this constitutes a conspiracy to suppress the "real purpose" of psilocybes?

Edited by latherdome (09/16/10 12:40 PM)

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Tripke
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: latherdome]
#13204666 - 09/16/10 01:12 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

synthetic heroin?? hope its better than before :tongue:

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I hope I didn't brain my damage!

:syringe:

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curenado
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: latherdome]
#13205271 - 09/16/10 03:23 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

<<I must ask why you want to limit the "real purpose" to one?>>

I don't. Beyond the way too much power and abuse concerns, I don't have that much problem with psychologists being involved either. I just am not able to see psychology as a real science.
To me it is a theoretical and subjective game that got a "medical" license and so can take off the turban, hide the tarot cards and get paid even better, but basically the same thing.
I think Psychiatry should always oversee psychology, but that does not seem to matter much in our country anymore so - for me and mine, but do as one pleases with their own. America is based on caveat emptor.

It's responsibility as well - your doctor is ultimately responsible for the protection of your "integrity and well being" and I would be (and do) scrutinize with "no sweet eye" anybody wanting to fool around in my patients head and life. I'll still have to be there when the "counselor" has gone on merrily away and left me with a body that still breathes in whatever condition. People go through counselors like revolving doors, and the primary gets to deal with whatever comes of it, good or bad the whole way.

I also feel like they are playing games with us, because all the benefits they offer, you could have at home with your friend and have no need of psychological involvement at all. That is better mental health to me. But there has to be something for folks who are alone or don't have friends that good. I see that.

<<Wait, Griffiths (above) is the one doing work on HEALTHY people, advancing psilocybin as for the betterment of the well instead of the healing of the sick or just the comfort of the dying, as Grob. I have no beef with either. Seems unfair of you to lump them together.>>

You are right - it is, and I will take Roland's pic off the post.

I have also changed (radically) my position on this, based on the idea that someone laying miserably and dying could get that as opposed to mellaril, which is a really shitty thing to do to a dying person to me.
I see little harm in psychologists and folks playing subjectively in psybes if somebody really suffering can have a bite too.

Part of it OWM, is honestly bias of hard experience - I would trust simple users any day more than about the majority of my colleagues at first blush. Some would disagree with that, others would say "Spot on. Smart man." You guys are more open and honest, desiring your hearts and minds to be heard. They are an industry, with industrial goals. When they put on collars, tell the truth and do it for free with vows it might be different. But it won't be.

Part of it is perspective too. When people want counseling they look for some grinning "happy-happy joy-joy" person for their feelings and introspection.
When there is a zucchini sized lump on their liver they want somebody serious. I'm groomed and manufactured serious, life is no "game" (at all) and when the "grizzly" comes, I bet even Roland moves over to stand behind me or someone like me.
I have to be ready for the situation or you for sure don't want me protecting your life and well being. I'm a partial victim of my proper role in your life, which is usually "Are you really sure about this?"
(and yes - I could not resist the movie reference. No, I don't want my patients being "a 40 year old virgin, drinking a banana-broccoli shake singing "I'm an oscar meyer wiener" no matter how happy that would make the government. I also don't like "Barney" the purple dinosaur. Fine I guess, but not my kid?)

<<rigorous clinical evidence such as "the psychologists" are offering for their claims>>

Some people accept subjective and guided reports as clinical evidence - I just take it in consideration and continue watching. That has to be factored in - I consider most of their evidence just testimony and guided testimony for now. Others accept it as much as they would my factual, physical petri dish or blood sample.

<<mostly quotations from other sources. Interesting, for sure>>

Actually more my patients than others, but the articles were written more for awareness and easy reading than hair splitting APA style. In some ways that has hindered more interested and serious people like you, which we realize. In the beginning, we were just asked to back up what others had said. IF that part (APA Style) is done - it will be an intern doing it. I'll sign :lol:

I did always figure all you little professors out there would !run with it! and replicate it repeatedly for yourselves. I trusted your "chutzpah" because I've always been able to.
Everything I have ever submitted is easily replicable by almost any reasonably experienced person, pro or not. Just don't take on cancer, livers or SARS on your own, yah? (I said that too..)

I suppose what has been most frustrating is ten years of wheel spinning, when they should have just gotten even one damn good MD with a ball bat and sent him up the hill to get some red tape settled.
I'm a LOT more frustrated with the legislature than the lollipop guild - it may be best that they are dealing with people more willing to still be shoved around than me though. (I'm a bit of a bear with critters "My size or bigger".)

I have no need to convince anyone how "happy" or politically correct I am. I see constipation in the process and am trying various laxatives hopefully.
I just don't think this approach has been successful - all the "wording" and "curtsying" and "styling" this pharmacolization thing - that's not medicine or legislature. You go up the hill with your notebook and demand. When you hit a brick wall, you reach in your little black bag and pull out jackhammer.

The thing needs effective leadership of a serious MD with a ball bat.
Are all those MAPS listings just people who can write papers? The papers have not functionally gotten us very far in over a decade.

I once told Alicia I owe no "heads up". At that time the plan was mustering "doctor" support for legislation in Arkansas that basically said "Oh the people can have within reason, without fear of decades in jail and fines, but you industry predators and profiteers will be overseen scrupulously by a competent, experienced MD in Arkansas - period."

Either the "Domestic Administration of Home Remedies" as we have here, or NOT "industry friendly" professional control and oversight with monitoring. (May sound like a dick, but responsible to protect the patients and public, which priority has fallen off some in this country. Especially in mental health, pharmaceuticals and certainly in Arkansas.)

...and I have been reminded 3 times now how late I am - but I will continue to follow and respond to anything. I am sorry this is so dashed off as to barely be a adequate response. I could list out guidelines and protocols by condition for everything you've read and more. ("in my sleep") I suppose if their were more guys like me in the US we could have put this easy thing behind us and been rolling (PhD's & MD's) by now, but such is our situation for the present.

There are plenty of MD's friendly to this, but doing nothing about it beyond advising their own patients privately - so in that respect, much success has been achieved. Just not enough in the right places.

I'll be back when I can surface again (Gaw! :lol:

) but I am super late at the moment.

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badchad
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: curenado]
#13205522 - 09/16/10 04:13 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

curenado said:
The thing needs effective leadership of a serious MD with a ball bat.
Are all those MAPS listings just people who can write papers? The papers have not functionally gotten us very far in over a decade.

This seems to be the source of much of your frustration. The scientists the you so despise and harass for doing hallucinogen research are just that..."scientists". It is not their job, their mission, or their primary goal to change the laws and legislature.

They do the science, put it in the public domain, and after that, it's up to lobbyists, lawyers et al. to get it done.

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jivJaN
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: bourndead]
#13205830 - 09/16/10 05:22 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bourndead said:
Quote:

jivJaN said:
i wanna know why people see eyes , and why i see them eeeevery time i eat the mushroom

I used to see faces in everything on LSD and Psilocybin, and after my first few trips I'd still see them in many things...sober.

I remember reading that people see things like faces and eyes because it's just an associative/familiarity thing...we're seeing them all the time in our daily lives and they just bleed into other things after awhile.

I used to swear I saw faces, some tortured, some happy, in wood, trees etc. Was on a trip thinking that it was the souls of the dead which had been returned to the earth and reborn into trees.

yea i get that, but i didn't see eyes in things.
this is a full blown hallucination , not just visual distortion.

It literally covers my field of vision as if you put a screen over my eyeballs and it is a very luminescent electric white that kinda reminds me of those little pictures that change when you move them.
its pure white , but you can see every color in it , subtly shining.

and these eyes are looking at me.
and they change too.
its dynamic .. as if they were alive.

the first time i experienced this , the eyes were completely foreign to me.
i didn't at all have the feeling that i brought them out of my memory and projected somehow.

sry to be a bit off topic here but you replied so i thought i'd explain a bit better , since there are many people that report similar experiences.
even alex grey depicts them in several of his paintings , quite accurately too :thumbup:

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greggor22
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: jivJaN]
#13207709 - 09/16/10 11:58 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

wow trippy eyes watching you... while you trip. How odd. Oh wait nevermind thats normal lol.

in all seriousness there are some certain images that seem to recur in various halucinegenic reations which probably point back to some shared species memorie of Homo Sapien.

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curenado
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: greggor22]
#13211851 - 09/17/10 08:57 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

OK - finally got home and I went back and cleared up that who's who post.

As to Chad's point - I guess I'm feeling like the lawyers and the lobbyists must need a doctor then, if they can't do any better than this. I also think more knowledgeable people in professional positions should stop being comfortably quiet and champion better medicine and the people who they live off of. I feel they have an ethical obligation towards harm reduction, education and livable regulation for psilocybes that benefits more than doctors and pharmceutical profiteers.

We in fact are responcible - or at least we seem to like being mighty godly when it is making u$ look good and is ri$k free. So how 'bout living up to and earning some of that status better. (note, not a question mark.)

None the less - the general approach does not seem to be helping and perhaps is not being handled by the right people. As I said before, the only thing I felt I could do was back up what others were saying and make every effort possible to get certain savages to give their chosen people liscense, so they did not have to look like they knew less and had less expertise and repretoire than say, like tiny brother colleges in Arkansas! :lol:

(and it's not funny. Medicine is serious and people are suffering needlessly. Even the ones who get help feel they must sculk around like guilty criminals; that they comforted or spared their flesh.)

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

Edited by curenado (09/17/10 09:15 PM)

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latherdome
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today! [Re: curenado]
#13213370 - 09/18/10 08:50 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I guess it's hard for me to get too worked up over the possible pharmacol-ization of psilocybin. Not any more than, say, echinacea or mint or shiitake. If the rich, timid, lazy or dying can get a pricey prescription with professional sitting, well, that will just make my picking a bit less outlaw in feel if not letter. More people will have access to the good, one way or another.

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latherdome
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: curenado]
#13213858 - 09/18/10 11:26 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

curenado said:(Dr. Roland Griffiths, not pictured here, Studies the occasion of mystical-type experiences having substantial and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance) Though I think he accepts believers only for his data, whereas I would throw them all in a fish tank and count the ones who said "I saw Jesus!" as opposed to the ones who just giggled and saw the pretty colors (about 1 out of three I believe - untested) Also, I would never allow the risky "God in a pill!" thing to be attached to me because that to me would be bogus. We do not know the whole of why these things happen and should not try to create the illusion of it. I also think it's funny to give people a psychotomimetic and then say it was more than their own self and reflections. God is not in the pill anymore than in every leaf or bit of salt. That is bad psychiatry.

Let's say you're right about no more than 1 in 3 random people experiencing more than giggles and pretty colors. I think you may well be right. It's almost common knowledge, right? It's unpredictable. What good would that study be? "Shrooms result in weird behavior with random lasting mental effects, but do they cure cancer? Film at 11." I don't see anything wrong at all with Griffiths carefully screening his pool for "success." It's a far more useful result to say "people exhibiting the following characteristics reap the following benefits from this carefully controlled (guided, if you will) administration of psilocybin."

The Griffiths stuff explicitly rejects the "god in a pill" thing. The most solid thesis of the work to date, to my thinking, is that mystical states are biologically normal, somewhat self-consistent whether endogenous or drug-induced, and tend to result in positive mood and behavioral changes for people matching a certain broad profile.

Quote:

curenado said:This!

This is the guy that I don't want getting ahold of one of my patients with his "Here, eat this mushroom and you won't worry so much about being terminal!" ("Dr. Euthanasia Parlor")

It's not like these people were getting shrooms instead of all the current orthodox oncology treatment. Even that wouldn't be euthanasia, right, unless the shrooms actually hastened death? Johnny TouchFaith... had "medicinal" shrooms failed to heal him before "palliative" shrooms became acceptable to you? At home in a hammock with M.Sabina sounds as good a way to meet the inevitable as any, for sure, as long as not too, too young and hungry yet to live.

Edited by latherdome (09/18/10 11:49 AM)

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curenado
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: latherdome]
#13214143 - 09/18/10 12:41 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

OWM - I meant that 2 out of three would be raising their hand that "something bigger" was going on, but the one would be the "just saw the pretty colors". I think the majority would be "grabbed by the booboo". Just thought maybe I said that backwards...

<<had "medicinal" shrooms failed to heal him before "palliative" shrooms became acceptable to you? At home in a hammock with M.Sabina sounds as good a way to meet the inevitable as any, for sure, as long as not too, too young and hungry yet to live.>>

John's tragedy was that he did not take medical advice and wrongly thought that you could use any combination of mushrooms to treat cancer, especially a risky one like pancreatic. That is a very grave error.

His friends advised him to listen to the pros. I contacted this man three times myself, pleading with him to accept professional advice and help, offered to provide medicines for free because he was very poor and had a wife - every single time he would do the equivalent of "pat my head" and say "Ah, don't worry about me curenado. I'll be fine."
He did feel physically better because of what he was eating, but it was not the correct protocol or complete enough for what he had.
He is a testament of "Don't do it alone" as well as a example of how one medication can relieve pain and induce a nicer mind in the last stage terminal. I never saw anyone on mellaril in the nicer mind - doped, yes.

His wife said, on his last night he came in, brewed his own batch of mushrooms and psilocybes like he usually did and then went out to his hammock. She found him later.
None of the doctors - chemo or otherwise - ever really had a chance. He still died peacefully at home though, which is what he wanted. If the whole thing was the way he really wanted it, that too was his personal right to choose.

He wrote beautiful things, which I believe are still posted on another OMC, in the same thread where others were striving to reach out to him.
I don't mean to go on about that, but better details for you.

He is a testament that even though numerous mushrooms are cancer effective, they are still their own pharmacopeia, and there is danger in reading information and thinking "one cures all, and all by itself." No one has ever said that.

<<" I don't see anything wrong at all with Griffiths carefully screening his pool for "success.">>

I see it as me saying "Psilocybes cure cancer" and then only selecting patients with simple, easily arrested cases that I knew would most likely succeed. The scientifically accurate and honest thing to do is to test everyone and learn what is and what is not. I know there is money and politics involved, but I don't think that would justify me doing a study that way. I'd have to be prepared for the results - whatever they were.
Because if I did my study that way and only showed success, then someone else may believe that more slanted data and die.

<<had "medicinal" shrooms failed to heal him before "palliative" shrooms became acceptable to you?>>

Psilocybes are always acceptable to me in cancer, as long as the patient tolerates them and they are not contraindicated, as in severe organicity.
There is a point in a severely debilitated patient where the effects of the psilocybes can put a burden on the system - a "tipping" point which has to be evaluated case by case and organ by organ. It is not that hard but it is important. Just as in a case where a patient has to be fit for surgery, or the cure could kill.
I only consider psilocybes "palliative" in the instance of "nothing else to do and will comfort" and as many know, I consider them primarily medicinal and secondarily palliative.

I am glad you got at this and gave me the opportunity to clarify things. Both from the physical med side as well as our own practice.

I would have been embarrassed if someone thought:
<<... had "medicinal" shrooms failed to heal him before "palliative" shrooms became acceptable to you?>>

of me. I have more knowledge, skill and experience than that.

and actually, OWM, I can't say in John's case because I never had him near me but, yes, with my big "rum te tum" self I am actually speculating that at his stage and in his individual case it is very likely that the way in which he applied them may have contributed to his death.
That is one thing you have to watch that your doctor already will - just because it does not hurt does not mean that it is "OK".

Heartbreaker of a case but that is why I think to memorialize him in a cause to comfort the last stage folk instead of the other example he was about "Don't go it alone, on blind faith". He was very much loved by his friends and I am sure they remember him passing sweetly among them and would hope that it could be as kind for others, if he is remembered for something.

and again, thank you for being a good student and tasking me harder than you do Roland - for the chance to tell John's story a little, and for the chance to clarify the requirements of my own position.
I think we (pros) are for "handling, inspecting, turning round and round" - so that you may have the benefit of what we have and have learned as well as the possibility that you might just be the guy that takes it further.
:psychsplit:

PS -
<<If the rich, timid, lazy or dying can get a pricey prescription with professional sitting, well, that will just make my picking a bit less outlaw in feel if not letter>>

Perhaps you did not know that one of my primary vetches is that "me and all my buddies" WILL have and get paid for it - but y'all will still be left in the pooper, and I stand for naturalization or citizen right protection BEFORE OR WITH pharmacolization.
I have no doubt the "man" will be fine, but y'all are getting tore up and maybe worse later, and I feel we have some ethical responsibility to be less self centered and selfish regarding the people we live off of. We are not separate on that issue. That everyone may have in a educated and reasonable environment with protective or remedial legislation.
This particular substance is about everyone, not just those who partake of or profit from it.

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

Edited by curenado (09/18/10 01:43 PM)

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latherdome
envy of the drug world

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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: curenado]
#13215673 - 09/18/10 07:16 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

curenado said:<<" I don't see anything wrong at all with Griffiths carefully screening his pool for "success.">>

I see it as me saying "Psilocybes cure cancer" and then only selecting patients with simple, easily arrested cases that I knew would most likely succeed.

If you could in fact demonstrate efficacy in these "easy" cases, to a similar or greater degree than orthodox treatments, with a convincing degree of scientific rigor, then that would be progress! It would make the next, broader, harder study easier to get behind.

I say this as somebody who's watched 2 close friends die of cancer (esophageal and lung) in their 30s leaving wives and kids, and who has a third getting a colostomy bag on Tuesday after a year of chemo. I'm sure you've seen a lot more hurt, but I get it, too.

<<" The scientifically accurate and honest thing to do is to test everyone and learn what is and what is not. I know there is money and politics involved, but I don't think that would justify me doing a study that way. I'd have to be prepared for the results - whatever they were.">>

Well, we're not talking bunnies here, are we? Real live human cancer patients don't make great experimental subjects EXCEPT in the toughest cases where orthodox medicine says "sorry, you're Terminal. wanna be part of our dataset for this 'what is and what is not' fungus healing experiment? you're gonna die anyway, and we need your death to testify to the study's lack of bias."

<<"Because if I did my study that way and only showed success, then someone else may believe that more slanted data and die.">>

Slanting the results -- suppressing or distorting findings -- is different than conducting the experiment narrowly/slantily enough to produce useful results without need of dishonest conclusion-making. As long as you're up front about the narrow conditions, right?

Edited by latherdome (09/18/10 07:22 PM)

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curenado
73rd Man

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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: latherdome]
#13216288 - 09/18/10 09:48 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Yeah - one of the major differences we're using in our comparisons here is the discrepancy between studies in mind and flesh. Of course they will be handled different, but I get what you are saying and it's translatable.

In any physical study we might provide, there would be that percentage of patients whose "result" was that they did not respond or respond well enough, and that was obvious pretty quickly from their lab. So they would be moved from that therapy (immediately) to the program that would give them results because no - we do not allow patients to perish just to demonstrate that in a particular disease and/or body condition the primary therapy wasn't sufficient :lol:

But all of us do that all the time normally in every medical environment. Here we always start, if it seems likely, with the least severe and most nutrition based protocol and then proceed to more severe measures if very good results are not quickly seen. i.e. If I see for example, that you have not gone from stage three back to stage two within 12-18 days then I notify (all and whoever) that we need to consider chemo/surg/rad strategies.

I have never counted the % numbers, but there are patients that go entirely with the primary protocol, patients that combine therapies, and patients who, for whatever reasons, cannot avoid the more severe/radical approaches owing to their case/condition.

We would never be selective on a "ideal" but eclectic and provide each case with the therapies that for all the reasons considered are in the best interest of/to the best benefit of each individual.

With psilocybes specifically, I would never count on them to be the "only" required thing unless we were dealing with essentially "shadows" i.e. superficial minor cell involvement which they can handle in a acceptable amount of time. By the time a patient has reached a measurable stage, you need more bullets in your gun - or you are gambling dangerously.

But - we have digressed a bit - suffice to say that we, imo, in the case of this psilocybe thing have not gone "from stage three back to stage two" in a acceptable amout of time, so now I'm obliged to notify, and locate the forms and codes for the ballbat/jackhammer/thumbscrew cart to be brought. :lol:

(if only I could :punish2:

God knows we've tried in our fields)

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

Edited by curenado (09/18/10 10:20 PM)

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Dan4th
Psilocybin Researcher

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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: curenado]
#13224721 - 09/20/10 09:52 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

This is the guy that I don't want getting ahold of one of my patients with his "Here, eat this mushroom and you won't worry so much about being terminal!" ("Dr. Euthanasia Parlor")
When the answer is:
"Here, a lot of people have fun giggling with their friends on this mushroom which is also going to help get rid of your terminal thing there. Don't eat just once! Oh, and by the way, no matter what hype you may have read, not everyone is obligated to imaginary guide their trip on any spiritual thing and that is really not my business. Some people just have a good time and enjoy the pretty colors. It's a side effect. If something neat does happen, that's you and God's personal business as well."

I have to jump in here. You are way off the mark on your depiction of Charlie. First of all, he is an MD. He's a psychiatrist and not a psychologist. He is not a good candidate for a symbol of widespread abuses in the mental health professions. After reading the views you have shared in this forum, I think you would respect him, his philosophy on his work, and how he relates to the participants in the study.

I am respectfully requesting that you reconsider what it means to post his photo with incorrect information about him, his values, and how he practices his profession.

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curenado
73rd Man

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Posts: 2,601
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: Dan4th]
#13224983 - 09/20/10 10:38 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Done! But when will there be some complete and correct information that is less sensationalism aimed at the public (That psychiatry article was even a little ? to me) and when will the lot of the psychedelic researchers so-called be put to the same kind of simple task I have been in this thread?
No pros see it as the public does. That perspective is so wholly different - and if some people don't want to be misinterpreted and misunderstood, perhaps they should be more careful or complete in what they allow to be published. I have not seen anything in the press that would cause me to think differently, and I am trying to get there but...it's got to get some things in place before I can step on that boat.

You have to admit I have been trying.

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

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curenado
73rd Man

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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: curenado]
#13225713 - 09/21/10 05:35 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

?
?
Hello?
Misunderstood and abused scientists?
Hello?
Yes, I was pretty sure that you would leave the public to defend and handle your apologetics - as usual.

Now we are back to - nevermind...see ya'll next time you get put in the paper and want to honk it or want money from the public. Until then don't worry, other people will explain and defend you. They most voiciferously will - my head is full of dents over thee and thine!
:cool:

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

Edited by curenado (09/21/10 08:20 AM)

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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: curenado]
#13239486 - 09/24/10 05:13 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

It's a reporter's misinterpretation of a peer-reviewed article.

I would hope that, as a physician, you would collect data on your patients suffering from cancer. Then meticulously document the effects and benefits of psilocybin in objectively reversing the cancer.

These results should then be published as a series of case reports. You can attend a myriad of conferences and meetings and present what you found.

This would champion your cause and you could get the word out.

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curenado
73rd Man

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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: badchad]
#13239981 - 09/24/10 09:17 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

That is the way to go. If you claim to be or someone names you a discoverer. I never even checked to see who is doing practial medicine with these in what areas where - I was just illustrating for people who already knew and the public that the biggest hallucination I see is the attempt to accomplish this goal by a wholly unbalanced approach and the ignoring of other features obvious to everyone.

I wanted to say "People, this is a bigger ride than it was the first time and while the things work and help a lot of people...and "Why do all the professionals, colleges and government try to act like we did not know this and a boat load more?" "Why do we pretend to be ignorant?" - because a lot of people are.

I never felt this route would be successful because it is a repete' of a previous failure.
I saw the most successful strategy as getting it into physical medicine first (Moreno, coming closest in work has seemingly failed as well.) and then allowing cross applications as is done with many medicines. However it seems that everyone is so stubbornly busy on their own agendas there really is no unified front in medicine. I also saw the most successful strategy as one that is more normal in life - get the eye surgeons a medicine and let people abuse it if they will - who cares? They can't abuse it much and it is less dangerous/harmful than loratab.

All the justifications I have heard seem less than successful too:
1) Well, the congress is stupid beasts so you act like you are "Barney" and only want good and look how good you are! Oh pwetty, pwetty pwetty pwease? (I never really saw that work with them you know. Rock heads they may be, so you present soemthing a rock head actually can relate to, not try to get rock heads to be "Barney" or believe him. :lol:

)

2) Well the public is stupid babies so you have to talk to them that way because they can't understand and are simple and you need to get what you want from them. (I don't think they have to be all hyped up in a lather. I think they would consider tangible things and pain as much as sad things and happiness. i.e. physical and psychological.)

3) Well, everybody is so mentally gone that they only recognize the Psychological! Hallucination! obsession and are mindless to anything else, so it has to be mind games to succeed, because that is all they can "relate" to. That is what allures, frightens and gratifies them the most and they are too base and sensate for reason. (When what psybes do to the perception is not remarkable or new at all compared to what they do to the flesh.....actually)

Literally, it was presented to me as we try this hallucination stuff because it is all the lawmakers can "relate" to.
Then it is time they woke up and weren't so stupid. How can they legislate something they are so stupid of? Maybe if we cut all the ~~Groff~~ subjective "Baba RumDum" crap and just said "Looka dis dish right here" then something could get done and the various psychology depts could go right down to the pharmacy on site and get a big 'ol bottle of professional canned bullshit to paint with however they want like me and respiratory too?
Even physical things hinted at by MAPS have to be wrapped in a mystical burrito or they are not accepted. That isn't obvious to everyone?
Not "Your immune system goes bazzo on these!" but "When you are imagining Ghandi on these it rubs your immune systems tickle spot" - when atheists get pain relief and symptom reduction just like believers here.

Anyway - the bottom line is I am just a voice and one of little consequence really. I see the physical medicine side either pretending none of this exists or being academically shut out.

I simply thought that we in our particular position, might be able to pull the plug on the pipeline by catering to other things about doctors and legislators "people" don't believe, or don't like to think about, that carry a lot more weight than the follies they do.

Not to mention that there are now extremely resistant viral and bacterial threats and in a short while many people will not be prioritizing nice dreams but rather effective bitters.

Psilocybes have some physical medical benefits at sub-hallucinogenic levels. That makes them a ipso facto physical medicine for extreme pain, infection, intractable and terminal conditions that is still being held up by the current paradigm.

Only shooting stars break the mold. I am far too old and ugly. I am some guy who will's evil professor. I am just a squeek for the wheel.
If I mattered a jot in this, or was recognized as a discoverer there would have already been handlers and ~~vultures~~ Reps and lobbyists - Oh My!
So far, all quiet at Rosewood. :lol:

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

Edited by curenado (09/24/10 09:29 AM)

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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs

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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: curenado]
#13240071 - 09/24/10 09:53 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

--------------------

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curenado
73rd Man

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 2,601
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: MushroomTrip]
#13240176 - 09/24/10 10:28 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

One thing is for sure, they will never listen to YOU :lol:

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

Edited by curenado (09/24/10 10:38 AM)

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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs

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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: curenado]
#13240213 - 09/24/10 10:38 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Well, at least you tried to be funny. :lol:

--------------------

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curenado
73rd Man

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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: MushroomTrip]
#13240340 - 09/24/10 11:21 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

What's funny about my guy is dead because he was afraid to grow his own medicine and succmbed to a treatable condition?

What's funny about "They're driving iron spikes in my LEGS!!" and "Hit me in the head! Hit ME in the head! HIT ME IN THE HEAD!"

What's funny about watching somebody leave, god knows what they are thinking, because some hospice ghoul poisoned 'em with mellaril to make it look like they were "peaceful" to their family?

There really isn't anything funny about any of this.
Maybe to you.

:dumbass:

and even if I was the

(Yes, I'm sure, a half breed GP that says "Fu-Q" and has a penchant for sour diesel - I lose sleep over it.)

It would come more like everybody wants anyway. I mean except the pigeonholers and glory hounds because their part would be over and adults would be sigining for the classy version at Wally's if they didn't grow their own.

--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

Edited by curenado (09/24/10 11:34 AM)

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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs

Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: curenado]
#13240397 - 09/24/10 11:31 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

To be honest, I didn't read more a couple of lines from your post. I just thought your attitude was funny like Roderick Spode's. And I commented you were funny because you replied back in a funny manner, instead of bitching. :shrug:

--------------------

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curenado
73rd Man

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Re: Results of Harbor-UCLA Psilocybin Study Published Online in Archives of General Psychiatry Today [Re: MushroomTrip]
#13240523 - 09/24/10 12:04 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Why don't that
:hansen:

"Dr. OZ" do something about it? Might have kept that polyp off him anyway.
I am just the poor accidental default. Harvard should have apologised and made amends with Andrew Weil - he is Mr. Society guy.
He wrote "The Natural Mind" and would have been more impressive than me for that sort. (except they eat the nice people, or blow them off in perpetua....like now.)

...and Andrew Weil said "The problem is there are things about it BOTH sides don't want to hear." and he was right.

Edit: But - I find that I am supposed to "forget it" as of this day (deja vu or whatever) I am supposed to be finishing a book about how to live in a world without antibiotics and I am on like....page 25 - or some other reason, but it's falling off my radar officially. It's been...stranger than fiction! :lol:

Hey! Don't forget me!

Edited by curenado (09/26/10 10:40 AM)

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