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 shroom-jitsu
Divine Triangler
Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 436
Loc: Here
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 Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: fastfred]
#12924056 - 07/20/10 10:45 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Psychoactives like mushrooms and marijuana were introduced into man's natrual food supply by the Ultra God Supreme Ruler of the Multiverse and Beyond. This was done intentionally so that a spiritual message could be delivered to us, the consumers of the divine fungus and inhalers of the sacred herbs. This message would bring His people back into symbiotic balance with the Earth, the Universe and the Multiverse beyond.
But instead, corrupted cancer-like human beings destroy any who seek to hear the message of our creator. Otherwise, this message could result in the critical mass necessary to upset the current status quo. This threatens the very existance of the corrupted ones, and they don't like that one bit.
Edited by shroom-jitsu (07/20/10 10:46 AM)
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PrimalSoup
stronger than dirt
Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 3,142
Loc: PNW 
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: fastfred]
#12929932 - 07/21/10 11:22 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
One thing I was thinking is that perhaps when people or animals are eating them the effects will cause them to wander around for some time rather than trekking straight back to their normal homes. That would help spread spores around to new territory.
Well, there are viruses that cause ants to alter their behavior in a way that spreads the viruses (I'd have to look up the details) but results in the death of the ants - so it's not too far-fetched!
Quote:
So evolutionarily, producing psilocin is the most successful survival strategy ever developed by a mushroom.
Yeah, I've thought this for quite a while. Humans have collected these mushrooms back into prehistory, inevitably spreading their spores around, and disturbed the habitat where they grow with the same result.
Peace
-PS
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 anonjon
Partially Right
Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: PrimalSoup]
#12930297 - 07/21/10 12:29 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
PrimalSoup said:
Quote:
So evolutionarily, producing psilocin is the most successful survival strategy ever developed by a mushroom.
Yeah, I've thought this for quite a while. Humans have collected these mushrooms back into prehistory, inevitably spreading their spores around, and disturbed the habitat where they grow with the same result.
Peace
-PS
I don't buy this. They are not domesticated and were not cultivated by people until just recently.
Cubes evolved to colonize dung and spread their seed on the wind. They didn't evolve as a result of human selection. They've probably been around as long as ruminants have.
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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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dokunai
Cactus, Cannabis, Cubensis
Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 1,211
Loc: Hyphal Heights, USA
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: fastfred]
#12930973 - 07/21/10 02:45 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said:
Any compound with a basic nitrogen atom can be properly be called an alkaloid.
-FF
That's not the whole definition. It has to be an organic molecule and it has to be produced by a living organism.
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,242
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: anonjon]
#12933896 - 07/22/10 01:50 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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> It has to be an organic molecule and it has to be produced by a living organism.
Sure it should contain carbon, but there's no need for it to be produced by a living organism.
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anonjon said:
I don't buy this. They are not domesticated and were not cultivated by people until just recently.
Cubes evolved to colonize dung and spread their seed on the wind. They didn't evolve as a result of human selection. They've probably been around as long as ruminants have.
Ahh... One of my favorite arguments. Evolution is not something that happened millions of years ago or progresses at a glacial timescale.
Evolution happens daily and entire species can change in a season or two. This is all well documented.
Mushrooms have been cultivated as far back as the historical record goes. Intentional or unintentional human interactions with mushrooms have caused their spread and affected their survival.
-FF
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anonjon
Partially Right
Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: fastfred]
#12934098 - 07/22/10 04:27 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said:
Mushrooms have been cultivated as far back as the historical record goes. Intentional or unintentional human interactions with mushrooms have caused their spread and affected their survival.
-FF
Affected, perhaps. But to suggest that psilocybin evolved as a result of humans is too big a stretch.
The word cultivated is a stretch too. It was still effectively a wild species until just recently. Humans didn't teach cubes how to colonize dung. Humans probably weren't even very widespread when cubes were evolving.
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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,242
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: anonjon]
#12934175 - 07/22/10 05:15 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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> But to suggest that psilocybin evolved as a result of humans is too big a stretch.
Evolution is just a combination of random mutations and the selective pressure on those mutations. It simply arises and is selected for by the selective pressures of the environment.
Production of actives arose at some point and either serves some unknown purpose or was simply not selected against. At some point in cubes history humans discovered the activity of the actives and this trait suddenly became highly advantageous to the mushroom.
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The word cultivated is a stretch too. It was still effectively a wild species until just recently. Humans didn't teach cubes how to colonize dung. Humans probably weren't even very widespread when cubes were evolving.
Well what would you call it when humans pick the mushrooms, eat them, carry them with them, provide the cattle who produce the food that they like, and transport them all around the globe through their migration?
Just because it doesn't fit neatly into our little box of what we consider "cultivation" doesn't mean that's not what actually happened. We certainly unintentionally cultivated and transported them around, spreading them all over the globe as we expanded.
Even calling it unintentional is rather arrogant. Ancient people carved symbols of them and certainly had ceremonies involving mushrooms. Quite a few people speculate that the biblical "mana" was some sort of mushroom. As they prayed to and thanked their god, and collected the mana it kept coming for them in the morning.
If you collect something, carry it with you, worship it and brandy it about while hoping for more you are cultivating it. Just because you don't understand the modern theories of propagation doesn't mean you're not intentionally cultivating something.
As far as being present for the evolution of activity, that is neither here nor there. We have no idea when the trait arose, nor does it really matter. We as humans have made the trait evolutionarily advantageous for a long time. Going beyond recorded history is delving into speculation, but we know at least some humans used and lived with mushrooms before written language. That's good enough for me.
It's certainly not the first time we've affected evolution either intentionally or unintentionally. Case in point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
In less than 50 years we more or less completely changed this moth species from light to dark colored. And that's from unintentional industrial pollution slowly changing their environment. Direct selection by humans can have a dramatically faster result.
So we know we currently affect mushroom evolution and have for quite some time. The only question is how far back it goes. As far back as we have evidence humans have been affecting mushroom evolution, and I see no reason we shouldn't assume it goes all the way back to the beginning of mankind. It could even go back further than humans, to our ancestors and predecessors, like neanderthals and other primates.
The earliest humans we have found are known to have eaten and carried mushrooms with them. When you find the oldest iceman we know of with mushrooms in his pouch what can you say?
Obviously we've been picking, eating, and spreading around mushrooms as far back as we can possibly look. Evolution is just a change in alleleic frequency, and it's clear we've done that with many species of mushrooms, probably for at least the last 20,000 years. We know we're currently doing it with cubes and other active mushrooms. So it's not a stretch in the least to think our ancestors did the same thing for the same reasons, they just might not have understood it as thoroughly as we do today.
-FF
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anonjon
Partially Right
Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: fastfred]
#12934562 - 07/22/10 08:20 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said: We have no idea when the trait arose, nor does it really matter... Going beyond recorded history is delving into speculation, but we know at least some humans used and lived with mushrooms before written language. That's good enough for me.
-FF
I'm surprised to hear you say that because usually your standards are higher.
It's not enough for me. I attribute the success of the species to their ability to ride the wind and colonize dung, which probably came around the time of the earliest ruminants. In comparison to those evolutionary pressures I think human affinity for psilocybin is a drop in the bucket. Also the time scale doesn't fit for me.
I'd also like to point out that many diff civilizations across the globe with no contact with each other were familiar with these mushrooms. The mushrooms didn't need people to spread worldwide.
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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
Edited by anonjon (07/22/10 08:23 AM)
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PrimalSoup
stronger than dirt
Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 3,142
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 14 hours, 42 minutes
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: anonjon]
#12938029 - 07/22/10 08:23 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
I don't buy this. They are not domesticated and were not cultivated by people until just recently.
You missed my point.
They don't have to be domesticated, they only have to be harvested (and transported) to spread spores widely. It doesn't depend on knowing that spores are the seeds.
Also it's rather well understood that disturbing fruitbodies in the wild enhances spore release over a wider area, whatever the agent of disturbance.
Quote:
Cubes evolved to colonize dung and spread their seed on the wind.
I didn't ever say "cubes"... 
Peace
-PS
Edited by PrimalSoup (07/22/10 08:29 PM)
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curenado
73rd Man
Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 2,601
Loc: North Central Arkansas
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: PrimalSoup]
#12949009 - 07/25/10 05:29 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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It is theorized that the Toltecs, some later called the "Mississippi people" after their northern migration, may have spread them in their path.
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Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."
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Danja
Enjoys insanity.
Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 200
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: curenado]
#12968658 - 07/28/10 06:33 PM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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An interesting question dude, I'm not entirely sure.
Perhaps, rather than it be a wonder the mushrooms produce those chemicals (as their bound to have a reason, quite intelligent chaps), its more of a wonder that the chemicals contained in certain Psilocybes effect us in the ways that they do, and that we chose to consume them?
It wouldn't be entirely impossible that the mushrooms figured out that the ones with psilocin/etc were more commonly picked before dumping spores, so to increase chances of the spores landing somewhere else natural selection decided they were best.
It could be for pretty much any reason really.. would be nice to know.
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jimmystubs
Backyard Chemist
Registered: 07/02/10
Posts: 212
Loc: Australia 
Last seen: 3 days, 6 hours
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: Danja]
#12969066 - 07/28/10 07:51 PM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Well, PE are defective and the spores don't drop. They get stuck in the barrel so to speak.
Great observation man, cheers.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would of thought people collecting mushrooms actually to be a negative, at least in some ways. I understand we transport mushrooms/spores around etc and I can appriciate that, but also most people would agree that over-picking mushrooms can kill patches. I have seen certain spots that get picked/raped week after week and now no longer produce mushrooms.
I would of thought it would be better for mushrooms to live their full life cycle and release as many spores as possible.
What do you guys think?
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None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free
Journal of an Australian finding supplies
Edited by jimmystubs (07/28/10 07:56 PM)
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anonjon
Partially Right
Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: jimmystubs]
#12969306 - 07/28/10 08:31 PM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
jimmystubs said:
Quote:
Well, PE are defective and the spores don't drop. They get stuck in the barrel so to speak.
Great observation man, cheers.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would of thought people collecting mushrooms actually to be a negative, at least in some ways. I understand we transport mushrooms/spores around etc and I can appriciate that, but also most people would agree that over-picking mushrooms can kill patches. I have seen certain spots that get picked/raped week after week and now no longer produce mushrooms.
I would of thought it would be better for mushrooms to live their full life cycle and release as many spores as possible.
What do you guys think?
I think it's like saying a pug wouldn't survive well in the wild. It's true.
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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,242
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: anonjon]
#12969770 - 07/28/10 10:11 PM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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> most people would agree that over-picking mushrooms can kill patches.
No, it's doubtful anyone with much understanding of biology would agree with that.
The second you lift that mushroom above your knees you've spread it's spores better than it could have otherwise hoped for. A mushroom's fruitbody hopes to be picked or eaten, that's the best fate it can have.
-FF
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jimmystubs
Backyard Chemist
Registered: 07/02/10
Posts: 212
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 3 days, 6 hours
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: fastfred]
#12970009 - 07/28/10 11:25 PM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said:
> most people would agree that over-picking mushrooms can kill patches.
No, it's doubtful anyone with much understanding of biology would agree with that.
The second you lift that mushroom above your knees you've spread it's spores better than it could have otherwise hoped for. A mushroom's fruitbody hopes to be picked or eaten, that's the best fate it can have.
-FF
I can appreciate that, thanks for the info. In regards for it being good to be eaten, surely this is not the case with humans eating them, as normally these would go down the toilet! 
I have experienced patches that no longer produce mushrooms so I have always regarded over picking as a problem, I am still surprised you would see this as advantageous, though I do understand what you are saying and realize the only need for the mushroom is to release spores. I did think that prolonged position for the mushroom is good because it allows lots of spores to land near each other, far more than the amount that would fall during the brief time that you pull the mushroom up.
Now I can see these patches dying or whatever could be caused by other factors than just picking mushrooms, but certainly I have seen a few sites that used to grow plenty of mushies, and now with over exposure, none grow 
My knowledge of mycology and biology is pretty limited so I am not pretending to be an expert, I am posting here to learn.
I have come to believe that patches should be protected, and I normally only take mushrooms that have opened fully and try to leave at least 20% of the fruits in place. Am I wasting my time with this?
Please let me know what you think as to why these spots might of stopped producing, as all I can see/think of is over picking.
Edited by jimmystubs (07/28/10 11:31 PM)
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 37,004
Loc: USA Mountain Northwest
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: jimmystubs]
#12970758 - 07/29/10 06:56 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Over-picking a patch will destroy it, period. This is a very well known fact.
When you pick a mushroom, a few spores do fall off. However, when it's left in place, billions of spores fall off right back into that area, refreshing the patch. In addition, when a mushroom is left in place as it breaks down, it often turns back into growing mycelium, in essence 'cloning' itself right back into the substrate/ground.
One should never pick over about 25% of the fruits in a wild patch. Leave the rest in place to keep the patch alive. I've seen dozens of P cyanescens and chanterelle patches ruined by idiots coming through and picking every last mushroom.
It's also not just about spores. Mycelium derives energy from light, and the fruiting body is what receives this light. If you pick off all the mushrooms, the mycelium below loses that very important part of it's life cycle.
RR
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www.mushroomvideos.com
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
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anonjon
Partially Right
Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#12971322 - 07/29/10 10:12 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Excuse my ignorance, the only place i pick mushrooms is in my house.
Are you guys mostly talking about actives that grow on decaying wood under the soil? How long will a patch remain in one place?
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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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PrimalSoup
stronger than dirt
Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 3,142
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 14 hours, 42 minutes
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: anonjon]
#12971841 - 07/29/10 12:06 PM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Peace
-PS
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,242
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#12973100 - 07/29/10 03:46 PM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Over-picking a patch will destroy it, period. This is a very well known fact.
Do you have some citations for that? The literature I've read indicates it's a wash at worst.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:Mycelium derives energy from light, and the fruiting body is what receives this light. If you pick off all the mushrooms, the mycelium below loses that very important part of it's life cycle.
RR
Where is that coming from? Everything I've ever read says fungi cannot produce energy from sunlight.
Sounds pretty far fetched from what I know.
-FF
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 37,004
Loc: USA Mountain Northwest
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Re: Why is psilocin/psilocybin in mushrooms, how's does it help the mushrooms life cycle if at all? [Re: fastfred]
#12973979 - 07/29/10 06:30 PM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Fred, mycology is an emerging and growing science. It matters little what biology-minded people think. Asking a biologist about mycology is akin to going to a horticulturist to get a liver transplant.
As for over-picking a patch ruining it, everyone from Paul Stamets, to David Aurora, to Soloman Wassen, to Gaston Guzmun, including me, myself and I plus hundreds of others have personally observed it. We don't need a damned citation from somebody else to know what we all see and observe with our own eyes and know to be a fact. I'm sure there's plenty of papers on it out there, but you'll have to do your own research if you desire to contradict the experts in the field.
As for mycelium deriving energy from light, that's an observation that every single gourmet mushroom farm in the world knows to be a fact. Stop by the gourmet and medicinal forum and take a look at the cube growers who try to branch into edibles and provide insufficient light for their oysters for an obvious example. If you wish to see it in print, get a copy of the Mushroom Growers Handbook and read it. As further proof, the biological efficiency in my shiitake farm is running close to 125%, which is WAY above average and much of that is due to using very bright light. Mushrooms on the bottom shelves which receive less light are smaller, and my outdoor shiitake, exposed to direct sunlight are as large and meaty as portobellos.
RR
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www.mushroomvideos.com
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
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