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 HeartAndMind
Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 822
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 What is it for? 
#12809060 - 06/26/10 07:36 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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We are born, we live bound physically here and return where this cycle started.
What for this physical world is needed? We should be able to exist without suffering, hate and lies if
there were no physical manifestation. Just pure peace and harmony.
I wonder what importance this egoistic world around us plays in whole. Every living being already is
perfect. Living in this world we often think that we are uncomplete.
Discuss  
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 dokunai
Cactus, Cannabis, Cubensis
Registered: 01/31/10
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There doesn't have to be any purpose. That's a human concept. Unless you're a solipsist, the physical world does not require humans to exist. The physical world is needed by us because there are no immaterial things going on in your body. Therefore, you would need to be material.
You're reaching with the no hate, etc. We aren't physically manifested or in contact with each other here at all, and there's plenty of hate/lies/whatever to go around. Those are functions of cognition. So, if you are assuming you will be the same person whether or not your consciousness inhabits a body, you will still hate, lie, cheat, and steal.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 80,493
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
HeartAndMind said:
We are born, we live bound physically here and return where this cycle started.
What for this physical world is needed? We should be able to exist without suffering, hate and lies if
there were no physical manifestation. Just pure peace and harmony.
I wonder what importance this egoistic world around us plays in whole. Every living being already is
perfect. Living in this world we often think that we are uncomplete.
Discuss
Why should we be able to exist without suffering?
And any reason for life you can come up with is personal speculation.
imo it's not about us or them or that. It just is.
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"People convince themselves of their own lies, becoming victims of their own inventions as they begin to direct their lives by standards of behavior, ideas, feelings, or instincts which do not correspond to their inner reality. What is truly serious in this matter is that the individual loses all points of reference regarding what comprises truth, and what comprises lies. He becomes used to considering as true only that which is convenient for his personal interests; everything that is in opposition to his self-esteem or in conflict with already established prejudices, he considers false."
- John Baines
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auxiliary
Mr.
Registered: 05/03/09
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 Re: What is it for? [Re: Icelander]
#12809231 - 06/26/10 08:26 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Unbiased, aesthetic waste of time.
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circastes
Being too serious
Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 5,736
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Re: What is it for? [Re: auxiliary]
#12809345 - 06/26/10 08:54 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Interesting perspectives.
My central tenet is that it's not serious.
About the physical world existing without humans - you don't have to be a solipsist, you can be a Buddhist, Taoist, psychonaut or quantum physicist...
The more I live life the less I believe there's anything there at all.
I do lean towards the 'aesthetic game' idea.
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"Your salvation may lie in a rational apprehension of the present moment."
-Terence McKenna
"There never was any forgetfulness for Self."
-Ramana Maharshi
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HeartAndMind
Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 822
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Re: What is it for? [Re: dokunai]
#12809360 - 06/26/10 08:57 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
dokunai said:
There doesn't have to be any purpose. That's a human concept. Unless you're a solipsist, the physical world does not require humans to exist. The physical world is needed by us because there are no immaterial things going on in your body. Therefore, you would need to be material.
The physical world is needed only for body to exist.
Quote:
You're reaching with the no hate, etc. We aren't physically manifested or in contact with each other here at all, and there's plenty of hate/lies/whatever to go around. Those are functions of cognition.
Why cognition is needed if we already are all what we are? Who is doing it? The body/brain? This cognition won't change us.
If body is learning it all, why is this evolution is needed of all organisms?
Quote:
So, if you are assuming you will be the same person whether or not your consciousness inhabits a body, you will still hate, lie, cheat, and steal.
Nah, 'consciousness' alone does not have to steal or hate. 'It' already is fulfilled.
The consciousness of body is what never gets enough, so it steals and cheats to fulfill ego. To gain and be more.
this 'consciousness' is often so ignorant that it could end evolution of its species.
Why this evolution is needed?
The 'I', or 'soul' is already whole. Why would this non physical energy would want to live on such
negative physical world? Even if it was not that negative, it still could not be as fulfilled as consciousness alone is.
Or could it? The new universe would born?
What for would that happen? 
Edited by HeartAndMind (06/26/10 08:58 PM)
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HeartAndMind
Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 822
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Re: What is it for? [Re: Icelander]
#12809379 - 06/26/10 09:03 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Why should we be able to exist without suffering?
And any reason for life you can come up with is personal speculation.
imo it's not about us or them or that. It just is.
Haha, why should we be able to exist with suffering?
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circastes
Being too serious
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What if we choose all suffering, what if it's not meant to be there? Perhaps our minds are more central to this than we think? Perhaps cognition DOES change what we are?
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"Your salvation may lie in a rational apprehension of the present moment."
-Terence McKenna
"There never was any forgetfulness for Self."
-Ramana Maharshi
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 80,493
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is it for? [Re: circastes]
#12809638 - 06/26/10 10:10 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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If it's not meant to be here then how could it possibly be here?
You're just subjectively moralizing imo.
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"People convince themselves of their own lies, becoming victims of their own inventions as they begin to direct their lives by standards of behavior, ideas, feelings, or instincts which do not correspond to their inner reality. What is truly serious in this matter is that the individual loses all points of reference regarding what comprises truth, and what comprises lies. He becomes used to considering as true only that which is convenient for his personal interests; everything that is in opposition to his self-esteem or in conflict with already established prejudices, he considers false."
- John Baines
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 4,238
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Re: What is it for? [Re: Icelander]
#12810622 - 06/27/10 03:19 AM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
If it's not meant to be here then how could it possibly be here?
In other words, God loves pain.
If "he" existed, I mean.
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circastes
Being too serious
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Posts: 5,736
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Re: What is it for? [Re: Icelander]
#12810641 - 06/27/10 03:27 AM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
If it's not meant to be here then how could it possibly be here?
You're just subjectively moralizing imo.
Perhaps suffering is a human invention? Is there any suffering in the Now? If we assume there is nothing but now, not even an object or event except Now, we don't suffer. This also entails no longer assuming there are 'things', and that you are one of these things. MOST of human suffering is caused by desire, the desire for more, the feeling one is left out from having more. If there's only Now then you must already have everything.
I've never seen suffering in natural environments. There is pain and death, but it is done over short intervals for the sake of necessity - it has purpose. You can't really say it's suffering if there's purpose, like for example you can't say, despite the pain, that you're suffering to stack logs of wood for your woodshed, it has purpose.
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"Your salvation may lie in a rational apprehension of the present moment."
-Terence McKenna
"There never was any forgetfulness for Self."
-Ramana Maharshi
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 80,493
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is it for? [Re: circastes]
#12810794 - 06/27/10 07:24 AM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Suffering is based in human psychology. Our abilities to project into past and future. It's a function of a our developed primate brains. The Buddhas great discovery was psychological and not imo spiritual.
Spiritual is just more malaise. This whole bit about no you no me no noting is just based in anxiety from my observations. We appear to be here. That should be fully enough if one has a healthy psychology and is fully engaged in living in a personally meaningful way. But our general psychology is not healthy and the reason behind this fixation/obsession with philosophy and spirituality imo.
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"People convince themselves of their own lies, becoming victims of their own inventions as they begin to direct their lives by standards of behavior, ideas, feelings, or instincts which do not correspond to their inner reality. What is truly serious in this matter is that the individual loses all points of reference regarding what comprises truth, and what comprises lies. He becomes used to considering as true only that which is convenient for his personal interests; everything that is in opposition to his self-esteem or in conflict with already established prejudices, he considers false."
- John Baines
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AngryPhil
Herenow
Registered: 01/22/09
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Re: What is it for? [Re: Icelander]
#12811419 - 06/27/10 12:03 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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If a species didn't feel pain and suffer it would become extinct.
Pain and suffering keeps us away from self-destruction.
The ability to feel pain is a survival mechanism.
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The creation takes hand of the chisel...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 80,493
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is it for? [Re: AngryPhil]
#12811459 - 06/27/10 12:22 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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In this forum we differentiate between pain and suffering. Suffering is a choice while pain is not. Suffering comes from not being willing to accept things as they are in the moment. It seems most other animals don't have the brain function to have this problem.
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"People convince themselves of their own lies, becoming victims of their own inventions as they begin to direct their lives by standards of behavior, ideas, feelings, or instincts which do not correspond to their inner reality. What is truly serious in this matter is that the individual loses all points of reference regarding what comprises truth, and what comprises lies. He becomes used to considering as true only that which is convenient for his personal interests; everything that is in opposition to his self-esteem or in conflict with already established prejudices, he considers false."
- John Baines
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AngryPhil
Herenow
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Re: What is it for? [Re: Icelander]
#12811494 - 06/27/10 12:35 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Would you agree that suffering is the mental equivalent of physical pain?
The ability to suffer mentally is a survival mechanism as well
If you never suffered from being single and 'not getting any'
you would have less motivation to get up and make babies
The will to avoid suffering perpetuates the species
as much as the will to avoid physical pain
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The creation takes hand of the chisel...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 80,493
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is it for? [Re: AngryPhil]
#12812797 - 06/27/10 04:55 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well they are both painful but one is self induced. It may have survival value, I'll have to think about that for a bit. On a personal level in regards to happiness it is not very valuable. It's neurotic.
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"People convince themselves of their own lies, becoming victims of their own inventions as they begin to direct their lives by standards of behavior, ideas, feelings, or instincts which do not correspond to their inner reality. What is truly serious in this matter is that the individual loses all points of reference regarding what comprises truth, and what comprises lies. He becomes used to considering as true only that which is convenient for his personal interests; everything that is in opposition to his self-esteem or in conflict with already established prejudices, he considers false."
- John Baines
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AngryPhil
Herenow
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Re: What is it for? [Re: Icelander]
#12813731 - 06/27/10 08:22 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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I would say it's nearly vestigial by now but had a big hand in helping our species earlier on
Humans work to improve our situation when we suffer, which helps us survive
Natural selection is about survival, not happiness
It only gave us the tools to find survive
Happiness is left up to you
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The creation takes hand of the chisel...
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husk
Stranger
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Re: What is it for? [Re: AngryPhil]
#12813904 - 06/27/10 09:07 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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most of us are unhappy because we take life seriously like it means or has to mean something....like there is a win and loose....we're like those kids who get depressed and crack hissy fits because thier Avatar in an MMO is killed....because we forget too easily that its just a game...just an experience...so we take it way too seriously.
well..that And...we don't have enough drugs to "never come down"
as for why?? i had a trip last monday that was one of those "scared the shit outta me so much, that i was extremely happy to be alive and have people in my life, when i eventually came down" Trips
In the Trip, after ego death, i lived out in full RL detail anything i imagined, i was the god of my own realm or reality, because it was like i was THERE whenever my mind wandered into imagining something, and i could be there as ANY charecter in the said imagined reality, or i could view any charecter from any angle.
In the veda's it suggests brahman is everything, and he remembers/imagines reality, much in the same way we do when we wake up(or sleep depending on which side of the mirror you think your on bacchus) see the thing here is that they give the god mind, or universal conciousness the attributes of normal human conciousness but way in the macrocosm.
why i say this is because now i think its fair to say that it could work inverse aswell, SO imagine you were alone, in nothingness because you are everything, there is nothing for you to love, you are the magnificient divinity but have no object because you are subject/object and the line in the trinity that coneects them.
so you enter within yourself, being such a magnificent conciousness you are able to imagine a scene a reality with immense detail, you witness your own glory now, like a baby calibrating its motor skills by exploring its own body, or a boy who hits puberty and finds out his willie feels good, your imagined avatars provide you an escape from lonliness and the opportunity to witness the only glory that exists, YOUR OWN...
..of course things aren't perfect in the percieved reality....after all how could they be, any object/subject in the imagined space is left with a void in its being, as it is not the sum of everything....it is not complete...most of the imagined beings are too distracted or lack the capacity to dwell on this....but your favourite avatars....the humans..they are aware of thier emptiness, they feel it but do not know what it is, they try and fill the void with food, women, power and all other forms of material distraction....but nothing can fill the void...nothing can complete them...because they are you.. and you are the sum of everything....so for them to be complete would mean for them to one with everything....but they cannot concieve that because thier imagined self image or ego program makes them believe they are seperate.
of course you will again sleep, brahman and be at peace again...you will be whole again...and this universe you conjured up in your imagination will be return to being just you...it will implode using the natural force of gravity when your attention moves back towards dreamless sleep/nothingness/peace, just as it exploded outwards when you awoke and sent your attention along with your imagination into 3 dimenstional space.
just as space will end, time will end, because when you are brahman you are ALL, and when you are ALL you are consistant, with not relatives there can be no change, with no change time cannot be concieved....but as you awake and enter your imagination...changes become possible, there can be relative space, thus time is born.
and we have a trinity what was, what will be and the line that connects them. here there and the journey between.
actually forget everything i said
OK ENOUGH BS FROM ME FOR ONE DAY..
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 80,493
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Re: What is it for? [Re: AngryPhil]
#12814218 - 06/27/10 10:02 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
AngryPhil said:
I would say it's nearly vestigial by now but had a big hand in helping our species earlier on
Humans work to improve our situation when we suffer, which helps us survive
Natural selection is about survival, not happiness
It only gave us the tools to find survive
Happiness is left up to you
Well survival is overrated. I'm all about the happiness. Natural selection, evolution, survival, that shit is none of my business.
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"People convince themselves of their own lies, becoming victims of their own inventions as they begin to direct their lives by standards of behavior, ideas, feelings, or instincts which do not correspond to their inner reality. What is truly serious in this matter is that the individual loses all points of reference regarding what comprises truth, and what comprises lies. He becomes used to considering as true only that which is convenient for his personal interests; everything that is in opposition to his self-esteem or in conflict with already established prejudices, he considers false."
- John Baines
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husk
Stranger
Registered: 05/29/10
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Re: What is it for? [Re: Icelander]
#12814242 - 06/27/10 10:07 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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yep yep yep, its better to be here for a good time not a long time!!!!
after all, your habits and memories and your body restricts you....die be a rock god die at 27!!!
thats all you ever need
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 80,493
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is it for? [Re: husk]
#12814278 - 06/27/10 10:17 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've heard the good die young. Too late for me.
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"People convince themselves of their own lies, becoming victims of their own inventions as they begin to direct their lives by standards of behavior, ideas, feelings, or instincts which do not correspond to their inner reality. What is truly serious in this matter is that the individual loses all points of reference regarding what comprises truth, and what comprises lies. He becomes used to considering as true only that which is convenient for his personal interests; everything that is in opposition to his self-esteem or in conflict with already established prejudices, he considers false."
- John Baines
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AngryPhil
Herenow
Registered: 01/22/09
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Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: What is it for? [Re: Icelander]
#12814317 - 06/27/10 10:24 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Well survival is overrated. I'm all about the happiness. Natural selection, evolution, survival, that shit is none of my business.
And it doesn't have to be 
When your appendix get's infected
you don't have to figure out why you have an appendix
you just have to get that shit out of there so it won't hurt anymore
The tendency to suffer is like an appendix that's guaranteed to get infected eventually
Relieving the pain is what matters in the end, but you can look into the why's if it interests you
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The creation takes hand of the chisel...
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