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Invisibleonce in a lifetime
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Re: This is IMO the best explanation of why the infinite one existence divides into finite consciousness [Re: PocketLady]
    #21563833 - 04/18/15 01:38 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

If you haven't noticed, I quote this quite regularly, about once a week probably, and have shared it maybe 10-20 times.

It helps knowing this in advance, which is why I've always done a lot of research before I took any drugs.

Yes -- it is not necessary to see the truth on LSD more than once; further, there's no need to go back, because 'there' is always here.

Still - I had a psyche professor once, red-faced, almost screaming at us, "LSD is the most addictive substance," not a big bother -- the point is, mis-information is an unfortunate thing.  There's been a campaign against these things for over a century in this country.

And they are medicines.  I would recommend anyone to read Joyous Cosmology by Watts; it delineates a very thoughtful approach to them, in which psilocybin, mescaline and LSD are explored as medicines to the mind -- when used in an appropriate setting, LSD was found to cure alcoholism 90% of the time, and people found it to be roughly equivalent to 7 years of psychotherapy.  This was my experience as well.

As I say - I love Meher greatly; he is a brilliant saint, and his message of love, selfless service, is ideal -- without reference to color, caste, or creed, to simply love and shine on all without distinction -- this is the pure message found in all religions, covered up in some cases by people who misunderstand the message.

He taught love without restriction, and selfless service as a path to the divine, and I'm completely on board with him on this, and share the same message myself -- especially, to restore balance and equality.

Yet, much as I love Meher and respect him, as I say; this is one place where he was mistaken --

It would be silly to discard Watts, Leary, John C. Lilly, Ram Dass, and McKennna, and countless other brilliant, compassionate, loving beings who shared the truth of these medicines for the mind. . .

It is generally a poor choice of action to engage in argumentation - a waste of energy, and you can't really win an argument -- if by some chance, after a long time of arguing, you've convinced someone your position is right; they will probably go back to their old view after some time, and you will likely have lost a friend in the process.

So this is why, as many have pointed out, once you've seen the divine peace, consciousness and bliss, the infinite consciousness, bliss and peace -- the inherent quality within this experience is to share it, with the whole world.  Yet it's best in many cases simply to write poetry, create new art, new thought, pour out new ideas into the world, by music art and poetry -- this is the rejuvenation of society -- this is the path back to sanity for our collective consciousness.

The point is, if you outpour beauty into the world in new art, new creativity, etc., this is generally best.


--------------------
Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland          Julia Delaney, Bothy Band                                        Rasta Girl, Sister Carol                    Genesis, Jorma K
I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing                                                                                                                    Do Your Thing, Moondog                     
large  . . music garden . .  very
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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: This is IMO the best explanation of why the infinite one existence divides into finite consciousness [Re: once in a lifetime]
    #21564057 - 04/18/15 02:37 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I agree that psychedelics do have their uses, as I've already stated. I definitely wouldn't be where I am today without them. They opened my eyes to so many things. My point was that I can completely understand why Meher Baba said this about LSD, because in my own personal experience, and from everything I have learnt from those who have attained liberation, psychedelics are detrimental to the path to realisation. The people that you mention, Ram Dass, McKenna, Leary, Watts are all people who I have a lot of respect for, and who have been sources of wisdom to me in the past. However, as far as I am aware, none of them have attained moksha. 

Quote:

once in a lifetime said:

It is generally a poor choice of action to engage in argumentation - a waste of energy, and you can't really win an argument -- if by some chance, after a long time of arguing, you've convinced someone your position is right; they will probably go back to their old view after some time, and you will likely have lost a friend in the process.






I'm confused by why you have written this paragraph? Is it because you feel like I'm arguing with you? I'm merely expressing an opinion. I don't know about anyone else, but I learn a lot by having discussions with people who have different perspectives :shrug: Wouldn't it be dull if we all thought the same?


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: This is IMO the best explanation of why the infinite one existence divides into finite consciousness [Re: once in a lifetime]
    #21564211 - 04/18/15 03:18 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Interesting to see this thread bumped after so long.

When I first discovered Meher Baba I was not necessarily impressed with his stance on psychedelics, I mean it simply did not fit into my world view at the time. Marijuana had been apart of my life and a great influence upon my thinking and perceptions of things, like many other people I enjoyed new insights from it and a change in my perception. A black and white view on psychedelics is too simple when analyzing such a complicated and powerful substance, it has a powerful effect on the psyche and the mental sort of matrix of a person, I believe it can shatter the egoic identity and in this sense it can be potentially useful spiritually. Anything powerful is powerful because it has deep rooted effects and something like that can be either really good or bad and a combination of both. It has both good and bad effects.


"He who knows everything
displaces nothing." Meher


Meher Baba does not really take an over-simplified position on psychedelics, perhaps in some of his messages delivered to the masses then yes the message is quite simple - that is to not take them. To individuals he always had a more specific message or explanation. He did say that they were used in ancient times for spiritual reason by spiritual aspirants however they are abused by the masses. Who is to say if something as powerful as a psychdelic does more harm or more good? Marijuana for instance is abused by the masses as it becomes an addiction. Meher said that marijuana was not physically addictive but one could get addicted to the experience of it, this is bang on the money. He also said they could be used to treat mental disorders and that they would not cause physical damage, he said this to Richard Alpert (Ram Dass) in his long correspondence with him. You can read it online and it is quite interesting.


Quote:

(1) Baba did say that the user of LSD could never reach subtle consciousness in this incarnation despite its repeated use, unless the person surrendered to a Perfect Master. To experience real, spiritual consciousness, surrenderance to a Perfect Master is necessary.

(2) The experiences gained through LSD are, in some cases, experiences of the shadows of the subtle plane in the gross world. These experiences have nothing at all to do with spiritual advancement.

(3) Beloved Baba stresses that repeated use of LSD leads to insanity which may prove incurable in mental cases, even with LSD treatment.

(4) Medical use of LSD helps to cure, in some cases, mental disorders and madness.

(5) There is no such thing as "areas in the brain reserved for subtle consciousness," and the question of LSD affecting them has no meaning.

(6) When LSD is used for genuine medical purposes, in controlled doses under the supervision of specialists, there are no chances of the brain, liver or kidney being damaged.

(7) Baba answered again that continued LSD use for non-medical purposes results in madness, and eventually death.

On Saturday, 23 July 1966, Baba dictated points for a letter to Richard Alpert, which Francis drafted and Adi mailed with his signature. Baba again wished Alpert to understand the futility and harm of taking LSD as a means of spiritual advancement, and the need of a Perfect Master for realizing Reality.



http://www.lordmeher.org/rev/index.jsp?pageBase=page.jsp&nextPage=5243

Quote:

Baba went on to describe the manner in which a drug, such as LSD, functioned on the nervous system. He pointed out, "At a maximum, all that a drug of this sort can do is to open up certain nerve centers which in normal circumstances of spiritual development open naturally themselves, and one gets access to them. But the whole emphasis is unimportant and has little to do with spirituality. It is a by-product of it."

Eruch interjected, "It is like trying to use a crowbar to wrench open a very fine, beautifully sculpted door, rather than using the passkey." Baba stated even this analogy did not quite give the true picture, or take into account the enormous risk a person was taking with such powerful drugs.




Personally I am not convinced lsd or any psychdelic can be bring about the infinite eternal state of consciousness IE) enlightenment. I believe Meher Baba does see them in their proper context and that for the average person they are harmful and dangerous. I do not know of any genuine saint that attributed their higher states of consciousness and the knowledge that they derived from that state to a physical chemical or drug. Ram Dass had the right idea with "when you get the message hangup the phone". Even Mckenna after his death his brother's biography tells of how he turned his back on them. Ram Dass went past the drugs and into real spirituality, Leary went the way and believed in the drugs. Leary believed in the drugs and IMO into insanity. In that Online biography you can search and read Meher Baba's correspondence with Timothy Leary as well.

I also read that Meher said that some people could get away with it fine whereas for some they could be disasterous. It all depends on a person sanskaras or mental impressions, we all have different sanskaras or way of perceiving the world. Meher Baba dealt out advice to people according to their sanskaras, he often gave completely contrary and different advice to different people.. one he would tell to be a vegetarian another he would say to only eat meat, another to not be concerned with diet at all.. all according to the sanskaras of the individual.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Invisibleonce in a lifetime
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Re: This is IMO the best explanation of why the infinite one existence divides into finite consciousness [Re: soldatheero]
    #21564568 - 04/18/15 05:07 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Leary, Ram Dass, J.C. Lilly and Watts were all far beyond Meher in some, indeed many aspects.  Meher was further than them in a couple of others, certainly, but I would say it's always foolish to place one person above others forever. 

All in all it's just foolish to talk about something if you've never experienced it.  Meher never took LSD, so he didn't know he was wrong about it. . .

How can I, for example, say that someone who never had etc. etc.


PocketLady -- the problem from Argumentation is that you are generally trying to Persuade someone of the correctness of your view.  Persuasion is generally not a good idea, because essentially it's a way of trying to exert your power over someone.  Essentially, such is a bad idea...  In our world of coorporations and what not -- a lot of people trying to persuade the masses, etc., etc., a much better idea is to teach people to be immune from persuasion, to think for themselves, to have trust in themselves and gain all power back for themselves.

When I see a philosopher teaching self-trust as the highest thing, and thinking for oneself as the highest thing; that is a good philosopher, worth his salt.

For instance, as McKenna said, "No one is smarter than you; and if they are, what of it?  What good is their understanding doing you?"

Philosophers who teach this way are doing good -- philosophers who are merely trying to exert their power over others, are not.


--------------------
Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland          Julia Delaney, Bothy Band                                        Rasta Girl, Sister Carol                    Genesis, Jorma K
I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing                                                                                                                    Do Your Thing, Moondog                     
large  . . music garden . .  very
all peace                    them hi
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OfflineDeviate
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Re: This is IMO the best explanation of why the infinite one existence divides into finite consciousness [Re: once in a lifetime]
    #21565105 - 04/18/15 07:17 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


Leary, Ram Dass, J.C. Lilly and Watts were all far beyond Meher in some, indeed many aspects. 


?

Such as?

Personally I feel like I have gained a lot from psychedelics, but they have harmed me also. One way in which I know they harmed me, and greatly slowed down the spiritual progress I could have made over years (had I had an understanding of the true path) was by causing an attachment to psychedelic drugs and experiences. My mind would often go back and forth arguing with itself over whether it was a good idea to stop taking to continue taking them.

I am grateful to them for what they have shown me but how I see them now is very different compared with how I saw them in my late teens and early 20s. I think they have the potential to be used as mind medicine, and I feel they are effective treatments for the illness of society, especially our society, because they deprogram the brain.

But as it turns out, there is actually a lot more to the spiritual path than just stepping out of the ill mindset picked up by one's culture, thats just the beginning. It takes true courage, desire, self control,  perseverance, love and commitment to walk the spiritual path. For example, one insight I got from psychedelics was that psychedelic drugs are not very important. What it is important in life in to love God, which can be done anywhere, any time. The problem with psychedelics is that the trips they provide one with are time bound and hence they cause people to stay stuck in time. I get especially annoyed by the people on this forum who worship psychedelics as God and believe any and all spiritual experiences are from psychedelics. To me this is a blasphemous view because psychedelics themselves taught me that it was God that was important and not psychedelic drugs.

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: This is IMO the best explanation of why the infinite one existence divides into finite consciousness [Re: Deviate]
    #21565686 - 04/18/15 10:11 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

After reading more of babar, I think he had the right understanding. He does say LSD can be useful in terms of awakening the spiritual longing but after it has done that you should stop taking it and the experiences it produces are all in the realm of illusion.

To the guy who said earlier, you know when you find the source, that is not necessarily true. From the standpoint of the aspirant, some of the premature states of enlightenment, will feel like total enlightenment because a characteristic of Reality is that it feels complete, but that is actually not true enlightenmnent. So just because you feel like you experienced the Source on LSD doesn't mean you actually became free of illusion. In other words, illusion can bend to look like source and may you think youve realized it.

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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: This is IMO the best explanation of why the infinite one existence divides into finite consciousness [Re: Deviate]
    #21566159 - 04/19/15 01:05 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Well said Deviate :thumbup: I too have had a very similar experience with psychedelics. They did indeed wake me up from the completely unconscious state I had been in my whole life and gave me a new perspective I never thought possible. But there is a reason why in pretty much all spiritual traditions these drugs are discouraged in the serious seeker. As you said. they cause attachments. They also induce a lack of clarity, and the artificial rise of vibration they cause is both unstable and also causes distortions and damage to a person's energy field. It might not be as noticeable in a person who is not actively on the path, but for people who are trying to purify their energy fields and do things such raising Kundalini and merging with their souls, it's likely to cause big setbacks. 

With all due respect Once In A Lifetime, I am struggling to understand your "self-trust" philosophy. Whilst I think it's very important that a person starts thinking for themselves, as Deviate has said, realising the way we can be lead by others, particularly society, is only the beginning of the spiritual path. But this idea of not learning from others on the basis of "self-trust" doesn't make sense to me, because from what I can gather, you are basically operating on the belief that you already know everything and that other people's perspectives mean nothing? Maybe you can explain further. Most traditions indicate that once a person reaches a certain point in the path, they will be able to have direct experience of God, and complete unrestricted access to their soul/higher-selves and all the guidance that goes with it. But until that point, IMHO it's not that a person should have complete self-trust. (I think that is a massive ego/mind trap personally. The mind loves to trick us into thinking it has all the answers. As R.A.W said, "Belief is the death of intelligence.")  It's a matter of discernment and being conscious, but still learning from each other and listening to other perspectives, even if they don't agree with your own. There absolutely no reason it has to turn into a conflict. The only true spiritual knowledge comes through direct experience, but until we get far enough along the path to begin having those experiences (higher realms and states such as Samadhi) we must use the experiences of others as signposts to get there. What you see as an argument, I see as educational.

I also would be interested to know why you believe Leary and co were ahead of Meher in many aspects. My current understanding is that someone who is enlightened as Meher was, has complete access to God all the time. Therefore, it's likely that even though he hadn't personally taken LSD, that's not to say he didn't know everything about it that we know, and more.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir

Edited by PocketLady (04/19/15 03:20 AM)

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: This is IMO the best explanation of why the infinite one existence divides into finite consciousness [Re: PocketLady]
    #21566403 - 04/19/15 05:35 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:
Well said Deviate :thumbup: I too have had a very similar experience with psychedelics. They did indeed wake me up from the completely unconscious state I had been in my whole life and gave me a new perspective I never thought possible. But there is a reason why in pretty much all spiritual traditions these drugs are discouraged in the serious seeker. As you said. they cause attachments. They also induce a lack of clarity, and the artificial rise of vibration they cause is both unstable and also causes distortions and damage to a person's energy field. It might not be as noticeable in a person who is not actively on the path, but for people who are trying to purify their energy fields and do things such raising Kundalini and merging with their souls, it's likely to cause big setbacks. 

With all due respect Once In A Lifetime, I am struggling to understand your "self-trust" philosophy. Whilst I think it's very important that a person starts thinking for themselves, as Deviate has said, realising the way we can be lead by others, particularly society, is only the beginning of the spiritual path. But this idea of not learning from others on the basis of "self-trust" doesn't make sense to me, because from what I can gather, you are basically operating on the belief that you already know everything and that other people's perspectives mean nothing? Maybe you can explain further. Most traditions indicate that once a person reaches a certain point in the path, they will be able to have direct experience of God, and complete unrestricted access to their soul/higher-selves and all the guidance that goes with it. But until that point, IMHO it's not that a person should have complete self-trust. (I think that is a massive ego/mind trap personally. The mind loves to trick us into thinking it has all the answers. As R.A.W said, "Belief is the death of intelligence.")  It's a matter of discernment and being conscious, but still learning from each other and listening to other perspectives, even if they don't agree with your own. There absolutely no reason it has to turn into a conflict. The only true spiritual knowledge comes through direct experience, but until we get far enough along the path to begin having those experiences (higher realms and states such as Samadhi) we must use the experiences of others as signposts to get there. What you see as an argument, I see as educational.

I also would be interested to know why you believe Leary and co were ahead of Meher in many aspects. My current understanding is that someone who is enlightened as Meher was, has complete access to God all the time. Therefore, it's likely that even though he hadn't personally taken LSD, that's not to say he didn't know everything about it that we know, and more.




Just want to add if you read his correspondance with Ram Daas you will see that Ram Daas also thought at first that babars negative view toward LSD was due to his ignorance about it. But when pressed, Babar reveals through his comments that he does in fact understand how LSD operates (more clearly than Ram Daas in fact) and yet still holds to his view against it.

I don't understand why you think Ram Daas was more advanced in a lot of ways though.  From what I have read of the two of them, babar comes off as a God-realized being. Ram Daas comes off as a very wise and spiritually advanced person. But my understanding is that true liberation trumps all spiritual attainments.

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: This is IMO the best explanation of why the infinite one existence divides into finite consciousness [Re: Deviate]
    #21566451 - 04/19/15 06:28 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Anyway, I did sort of hang up the phone with psychedelics (I say sort of because I am not counting weed even though I probably should), my last shroom trip was 2 years ago, however I was actually planning an upcoming mushroom or cactus trip. Reading these comments by babar kinda takes the wind out of my sales. I also think psychedelics are more addictive than traditionally thought, not addictive like traditional drugs but addictive in how we tend to idolize and attach to the experience, going over it again and again in our minds and dreaming of repeating it even if we are not repeating at a rate that appears harmful to our outward lives.

Edited by Deviate (04/19/15 06:30 AM)

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Invisibleguitardude3
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Re: This is IMO the best explanation of why the infinite one existence divides into finite consciousness [Re: Deviate]
    #21578582 - 04/21/15 10:54 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Not to 'Deviate' from the current conversation(pun intended, haha), but I'd like to add a comment or two on the original post.

During my recent first encounter with ayahuasca, I had an experience that seems to come up quite often. Not only in my psychedelic journeys, but in meditation and silent contemplation as well. As an individual, one can only be 100% sure of one's own consciousness. That is to say that none of us are truly certain that another is truly conscious. To put another way, there is no way I can be sure that everything outside of me is not just an illusion. With this realization, it also occurred to me that I may also be an illusion. How egotistical would it be for me to believe that I am the only real one, and that all others are merely a very realistic illusion.

When the Aya kicked in, this was the first thing it hit me with. I was there, doing this ceremony, in order to heal myself of some deeply seated trauma I could find no other way to heal from. I began seeing typical DMT like, shifting geometrical patterns, and the familiar voices began. "Well... You're GOD, what are you doing here?" I snickered, saying, "Yeah, yeah... Okay."

"No," they replied.

"You are GOD, and GOD alone. All of this is an illusion, and even the Shaman must obey your commands. All of the worlds hate, love, problems, and chaos is your own doing. You can make it stop anytime you want. You don't even need this healing."

Now I seriously contemplated this possibility, as I had many times before. Although, not to this degree of accuracy.

I replied, "Even if I am, I really don't want that. I just want to be me. I want to be healed, I came all the way here for that reason, and I want the Shaman to take care of it for me when I can't handle it."

I was faced with the shear loneliness of what it would actually be like to be GOD. To be the one consciousness in a vast dark universe that didn't even exist before I decided to 'trick' myself into believing that something else was real. So real, that there is no way I will ever be able wake up to the fact that there is only one. When I truly accepted what I was being faced with, I wholeheartedly rejected it.

Once I did that, the medicine got down to business, and I resumed being who I was in my life. Faults, weaknesses and all. I willingly accepted the 'delusion' of my life after that, and decided to quit trying to transcend it, at least for now.

My point is, maybe that is why creator 'split' itself up. It would really suck to be the only one in a sea of darkness. Almost unimaginable loneliness forever...

That being said, I may decide to quit using entheogenic substances for good some day, but for now, they are great tools which I respect very much and look forward to learning more about. The more respect I show them, the more they show me. One day that might mean ceasing their use altogether, but not for now. :wink:


--------------------
All you see is an illusion, including my posts.

"Thanks to impermanence, everything is possible."
-Thich Nhat

Edited by guitardude3 (04/21/15 10:55 PM)

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Offlinecrkhd
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Re: This is IMO the best explanation of why the infinite one existence divides into finite consciousness [Re: guitardude3] * 1
    #21579181 - 04/22/15 06:24 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

It rejoins in multidimensional consciousness - there is a merging of Life into Life that dissolves the aloneness. You go from experiencing I-ness with its loneliness to We-ness with its incredible majestic communion of the self with the self, some truly splendid stuff. Reaching out to each other through the imagination, knowing it is real holographically, you become a dew drop resonating with all the other dew drops, holding your own dew drop ness and simultaneously being the entire ocean of reflections of dew drops. Through the reflection space you can contact anybody, any creature, all a matter of tuning into that being's individual resonance and linking it to yours. The Creator had/has something supremely majestically grand beyond all comprehension in mind, it is Paradise - the total fulfilment of cosmic knowledge, the absolute reification of God, the finished masterpiece of the supreme Overmind - our Home


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific

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Invisibleguitardude3
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Re: This is IMO the best explanation of why the infinite one existence divides into finite consciousness [Re: crkhd]
    #21580156 - 04/22/15 12:37 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I like the dew drop analogy. :thumbup: After my experience, it really put my individual sufferings into perspective, and I thank Creator very often for this 'Paradise.'

I wonder if this work of 'knowing thy self' will ever truly be done. Or will we forever expand into the infinite realms of possibilities until we all truly see everything as one from our individual point of consciousness?


--------------------
All you see is an illusion, including my posts.

"Thanks to impermanence, everything is possible."
-Thich Nhat

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Invisibleonce in a lifetime
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Re: This is IMO the best explanation of why the infinite one existence divides into finite consciousness [Re: crkhd]
    #21580217 - 04/22/15 12:58 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

in the here and now.

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