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 Saidin
Sun Dragon
Registered: 12/02/08
Posts: 360
Loc: In between my thoughts
Last seen: 15 days, 19 hours
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 Re: Explain to me again. [Re: deCypher]
#12585503 - 05/18/10 11:58 AM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said:
Everyone always talks about fear/love. What about hate?
Hate has its roots in fear.
All emotions can be boiled down to either love or fear as the root causes.
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What, you ask, was the beginning of it all? And it is this...
Existence that multiplied itself
For sheer delight of being
And plunged into numberless trillions of forms
So that it might
Find
Itself
Innumerably.
-Sri Aubobindo
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 c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 9,432
Loc: NY
Last seen: 6 seconds
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Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said:
By the definition of consciousness you cannot experience universal consciousness unless you have expanded your own.
What definition are you going by? I don't understand what you mean.
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astralsun.blogspot.com
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
  
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 deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: Explain to me again. [Re: Saidin]
#12585589 - 05/18/10 12:16 PM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Saidin said:
Hate has its roots in fear.
Would you mind elaborating on this thought? Why is this true?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 27 minutes, 55 seconds
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Quote:
Chronic777 said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
its the only way it can work for a while
Why? And how do you know?
Theres the evidence of most species on this planet feeding on each other
Then theres also the evidence of some few beings who have gone beyond that and live off sunlight, water & air
And they help countless others without demanding anything in return.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: Explain to me again. [Re: Kickle]
#12585607 - 05/18/10 12:19 PM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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My heart goes out to the truly compassionate. It must be difficult being so perfect all the time.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
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Re: Explain to me again. [Re: Icelander]
#12585610 - 05/18/10 12:20 PM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
How this universal consciousness, if it exists, is ultimately love directed?
When walking this morning my big old dog treed a young raccoon. It looked so scared up in that little tree with Kilo trying desperately to get at it. Then I remembered that Kilo is one of the sweetest dogs I've owned and that raccoon would have no trouble tearing into a nest full of young helpless newborn birds. This isn't even taking a hard look at how primates, including and especially humans, behave much of the time.
Now explain to me again how a consciousness that expresses itself in these ways is all about love and niceness? Cause it really doesn't make sense to me. Especially if one is going to claim that this consciousness is very very aware. 
Consciousness is not all about love and niceness, it's a mistake if anyone thinks we are never supposed to become mad, depressed, or pissed off.
But 99% of this suffering is the result of consciousness becoming identified with the body and mind. We see enemies when there really aren't any, we become offended when someone challenges or disrespects us, we think of the past and become somber about the friends and loved ones we once had but no longer do...
All of this is a dream tied to an illusory sense of self.
Consciousness is free of all qualities, there is no such thing as a "car", "tree", or "sky". But it seems inevitable that consciousness has to label and identify with things in order for us to survive. If you did not know what a tree was you might think it was some monster with a thousand arms that would attack you when you walked by, so consciousness ends up labeling the tree as harmless. The problem though is that we forget all these labels are merely illusory and have no absolute value whatsoever, they are simply meant to serve as reference points and guides for helping us navigate through life. But, we become ignorant of the illusion and end up spending our lives in a fairy tale.
Edited by appleorange (05/18/10 12:48 PM)
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Tony
Stranger
Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 859
Last seen: 3 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: Explain to me again. [Re: Icelander]
#12585650 - 05/18/10 12:26 PM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
You also never can find that which loves. Again you are not responding to my question as far as I can tell.
Also how is love an absurd desire? It's ingrained in us as infants to seek it out for survival purposes.
There can be desire for unconditional love. In fact I think all people have it. Unconditional love can not, however be found anywhere. Love in the phenomenal world is always conditional. Good parents provide a safe environment for the child to grow in, but even they have to sometimes imply that there are certain conditions to be met, otherwise some kind of corrective action will be taken. The only unconditional love is the space that simply allows everything to happen. And how is everything happening? Are we all trying to kill each other? Is it really that bad?
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Cognitive_Shift
@shroomery.org
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 22,230
Loc: OhighO 
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said:
By the definition of consciousness you cannot experience universal consciousness unless you have expanded your own.
What definition are you going by? I don't understand what you mean.
For example under high dose LSD/Mushroom experiences i literally feel as though i have merged with my physical surroundings. I am no longer Cognitive_Shift the person, i don't identify my self in my mind as a single thing with a name and home. I feel as though i am everything. However under normal brain/mind functioning this does not happen, my sense of who i am is Cognitive_Shift a person with a name and house. I do not feel i am everything. In fact i will always be Cognitive_Shift unless i expand my consciousness.
Edited by Cognitive_Shift (05/18/10 12:33 PM)
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circastes
i did it for tha bliss
Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 3,575
Loc: 
Last seen: 1 hour, 57 minutes
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Re: Explain to me again. [Re: Icelander]
#12585684 - 05/18/10 12:32 PM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
How else could this universal consciousness conjure the values of courage and valor, without malice and ferocity?
But this is exactly my point and the one no one addresses. Why would a universal consciousness need to conjure these values if it was already it's primary values and it's was already everything????? 1
Remember there is only one Self. So who or what suffers, at any time? No one, it is chosen mistakenly.
If there is no one who suffers there would have to be no one who chooses suffering. ????? 2
Everythings ultimate state is love, because that's the nature of the universal consciousness.
Rather, imo, it seems this is the reaction of humans who cannot handle nature and creation the way it actually appears. They must put love at the center or all their anxieties are aroused.3
Good point on 1. There must be another reason, or something entirely different is going on.
As for 2, I was saying since there is only one Self, suffering is an illusion. Say you slowly die because you're beaten to death by a stick, you still win because you are the stick, you are omnipotent, so who really suffered? You cannot say anyone suffered, there was just some suffering and now it no longer exists.
As for 3, my idea of the universal consciousness' love is derived directly from my experience of natural ecstasy. Because I feel this, I say all is love, not for any other reason. It just seems obvious to me.
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Find me in the backyard, sailing my kettle. Playing poker with insects, wearing a cup of tea. A hat of brimstone, yellow-crimson, looking like a giant flea. Forever my friend: so my energy this day I lend, I practice faking it to pretend, and become the actor in the end. My folly hangs on the trees like leaves and drips in the falling breeze, the tock of a minute here shakes me to my knees.
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 9,432
Loc: NY
Last seen: 6 seconds
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Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said:
By the definition of consciousness you cannot experience universal consciousness unless you have expanded your own.
What definition are you going by? I don't understand what you mean.
For example under high dose LSD/Mushroom experiences i literally feel as though i have merged with my physical surroundings. I am no longer Cognitive_Shift the person, i don't identify my self in my mind as a single thing with a name and home. I feel as though i am everything. However under normal brain/mind functioning this does not happen, my sense of who i am is Cognitive_Shift a person with a name and house. I do not feel i am everything. In fact i will always be Cognitive_Shift unless i expand my consciousness.
I see. Well you are looking at it as your consciousness expanding, I see it as the drugs temporarily kill the ego self which allows you to identify with the infinite awareness which is always there.
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astralsun.blogspot.com
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,039
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Yes, expansion is just as much phenomena as anything else, the greatest bliss as an experience, still phenomena
The true way is permanent presence, as only that can be called Truth
And theres even an Awareness of that presence
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
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Chronic, what is awareness?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,567
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Explain to me again. [Re: Kickle]
#12586176 - 05/18/10 01:38 PM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Chronic777 said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
its the only way it can work for a while
Why? And how do you know?
Theres the evidence of most species on this planet feeding on each other
Then theres also the evidence of some few beings who have gone beyond that and live off sunlight, water & air
And they help countless others without demanding anything in return.
I'd sure like to know what you're talking about?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,567
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Explain to me again. [Re: circastes]
#12586211 - 05/18/10 01:43 PM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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As for 3, my idea of the universal consciousness' love is derived directly from my experience of natural ecstasy. Because I feel this, I say all is love, not for any other reason. It just seems obvious to me.
I've experienced ecstasy, but it would be a huge leap of faith to claim that all is love then. That would be like saying,"I've experienced hate so all is hate then" See what I'm getting at. You are focused on what is pleasurable and comfortable and ignoring what is stressful and uncomfortable. Which makes sense but it's not realistic imo.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,567
Loc: underbelly
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But it seems inevitable that consciousness has to label and identify with things in order for us to survive.
Why? Why does consciousness if it is awake and aware and committed to bliss and love create life forms that are based in the violent struggle for survival and which feed off of each other. Wouldn't it be more likely that that there is no such consciousness at work here?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,039
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Quote:
appleorange said:
Chronic, what is awareness?
its who i am
its not a thing
it is infinity
Im sure you'll see that those answers will not do
You are Awareness, thats indisputable from where im seeing
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,567
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Explain to me again. [Re: Tony]
#12586519 - 05/18/10 02:27 PM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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The only unconditional love is the space that simply allows everything to happen. And how is everything happening? Are we all trying to kill each other? Is it really that bad?
Based on what you said in your post, imo, it doesn't follow that it's unconditional love that is allowing everything to happen but rather things are just happening because they can. That makes much more logical sense to me. And yes on a very large level we are all struggling for position to survive. In modern culture it's often more symbolic but not the less real. "Dog eat dog" is a common phrase in the business world among others. Every day many things will die to support our existence. We are buffered from this by the facade of culture. It really is survival of the fittest in the long run. And this has been the design of life for as long as we have been here as far as we know. How would an all loving conscious awareness require this type of existence if it didn't have to?????????????????? That's my question and I really haven't heard a good answer yet.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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I was aware but after this forty of malt liquor, not so much anymore.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
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Re: Explain to me again. [Re: Icelander]
#12586572 - 05/18/10 02:33 PM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
But it seems inevitable that consciousness has to label and identify with things in order for us to survive.
Why? Why does consciousness if it is awake and aware and committed to bliss and love create life forms that are based in the violent struggle for survival and which feed off of each other. Wouldn't it be more likely that that there is no such consciousness at work here?
For one, we do not know what consciousness is committed to, that's the same as asking "what is the meaning of life?" All that can be said about life is that when consciousness becomes identified with form, suffering ensues. That's about the extent our intellect is able to reach. Anything beyond that point is pure supposition.
If there was no such consciousness at work, you would not be able to read the words on this screen.
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Cognitive_Shift
@shroomery.org
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 22,230
Loc: OhighO
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I don't think psychedelics kill anything including the ego. They do not reduce consciousness. When you say "kill the ego" I think of a process of elimination, which is not what psychedelics do. They do not eliminate anything including the ego, they expand your mind. You become more connected to everything. This mental experience of feeling connected IMO is consciousness expansion.
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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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