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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: Viveka]
    #11243302 - 10/13/09 11:10 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Western music written before the 70's had more complex rhythmic variation than I think any other culture before it.  Ive listened to a lot of world music, I cant really imagine anything more complex than what was being made in the US in the 20th century.  Listen to orchestral music like Varese where he had an entire piece of just drummers (the piece is called Ionisation), then you go onto jazz where jazz soloists like Elvin Jones created dense polyrhythmic solos.  Or Steve Reich with Drumming (out in 70 I believe).

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OfflineViveka
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: Chespirito]
    #11243526 - 10/14/09 12:06 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Ionisation doesn't really contain any rhythmic structure.  The rhythmic forms that are posited are transitory.  They serve more as a vehicle for dynamic phrasings.  Not that Varese wasn't capable of establishing new, dominant rhythmic structures in music but that's just the point.  Varese was on the absolute edge, what he did in no way represents the dominant forms of Western music and that's my point.  If anything Varese was a reactionary whose more rhythmically expermintal output is an exception that proves my point.

The most advanced jazz drummers were using simultaneously complementary and disparate rhythmic elements to confound, if anything.  They're not developing rhythmic forms so much as they are attempting to temporarily escape the rhythmic cycle.


Look at India for instance.  The dominant form of music, the classical tradition of the region, is by default far more rhythmically complex than anything in the mainstream Western classical tradition.  A lot of this has to do with an oral vs a transcribed tradition.  This discussion gets very deep and mysterious very quickly.

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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: Viveka]
    #11244108 - 10/14/09 03:37 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Id be interested if you could post some music showing what you are talking about

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Offlinemtichael
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: Alabama Slim]
    #11248504 - 10/14/09 07:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

labels labels thats all ya say good music puts itself in its own .not punk or dub or nu punk or kung fu punk.

rock = non sell out

misfists and sex pistols exploited  suck and are fake as jonas brothers

if ya dont go and hang in the streets with kids ya cant say shit
cuz your inside with your computer makeing labels for flavors of people

leftover crack , citizen fish grateful dead clash XTC and the specials

you arnt a selector


--------------------
The stars relly suck tonight
Hate is so usefull i make sandwichs out of it
:sandwich:

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InvisibleAlabama Slim
Chinese river witch

Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 7,439
. [Re: mtichael]
    #11248926 - 10/14/09 08:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

.

Edited by Alabama Slim (02/02/12 01:12 PM)

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OfflineViveka
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: Chespirito]
    #11250155 - 10/15/09 12:01 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I'm glad you asked since it just led me to spending two hours watching amesome videos on YouTube looking for a good example.

I don't know how much you've already observed of Indian classical.  This is a good video for the purpose since Ravi talks a little about the rhythmic tradition and they demonstrate some Tala vocab



Here's a very distinct bit of form:



There's so much of this to explore just on YouTube there's no need to post anything else

Here's the cliff notes on the rhythmic tradition of India

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tala_(music)

It's pretty clear that this culture was interested in rhythm and studied it extensively to the point where their expression of rhythm largely informs their melodic tradition as well.  In the West, the opposite is roughly true.

BTW, thanks for turning me on to Prokofiev in this forum a couple months ago!  I think that was you.

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Offlinemtichael
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: Viveka]
    #11250319 - 10/15/09 12:32 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

punk the word dont exist its a label
punk = be your self
hippe = be your self
rocker = be your self
nerd = following the light into the dark


--------------------
The stars relly suck tonight
Hate is so usefull i make sandwichs out of it
:sandwich:

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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: Viveka]
    #11251043 - 10/15/09 04:34 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I listened to those two videos and that was pretty cool.  The second video was impressive.  That said Id agree with you that India had a much richer rhythmic tradition well before the West got started.  But you said the West before 1970's which I just cant get behind.  Jazz has blown that Indian tradition out of the water.  I mean they were incorporating Indian techniques as far back as the 50's and probably before.  Jazz drumming in the 50's 60's and early 70's is absurdly complex.





Heres Elvin Jones, the solo starts a few minutes into the video.  I find it incredible.  I'm not sure your musical background, but he incorporates 'a lot' of poly-rhythms into this solo which is why it sounds like theres no continuous flow.  The Indian solo was great and all but its just not even close to the complexity level displayed here.  Its their classical music which was lightyears beyond the Wests before the 1900's

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OfflineViveka
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: Chespirito]
    #11257247 - 10/15/09 11:57 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I was generally speaking about the rhythmic traditions and forms of music wherever it's found, not strictly classical.  Indian percussion, particularly the southern Indian rhythmic tradition is likely the most complexly polyrhythmic music in the world.  It may not sound as such since it's performed so quickly and fluidly(tabla) and only on two elements - the bayan and the dayan.  (It's also interesting to note tabla has only been around since the 18th century.)

The konnakol, which is the vocal syllabic system like the West's solfeggio, is used to create extremely polyrhythmic phrasings and compositions, which as you've now seen are complex and many in their forward moving structure, but moreover the accents and phrasings shift in such as way as the cycles progress that the complexity of subdivision and polyrhythm that develops is quite astounding and about as complex as it gets here on planet Earth. 

Elvin Jones was busting out for sure in that solo.  A lot of it was quarter note triplet, that staple of jazz polyrhythm.  The thing with jazz drum solos as I mentioned in an earlier post is that the aim is largely free time.  When this happens no rhythmic forms are really being established, which was my original focus, and actually almost the opposite is happening.

My primary interest as a practitioner of rhythm(I'm a drummer/generally musical person) as far as my own creation is concerned is to utilize uncommon, unusual rhythmic forms.  Sometimes just for the sake of doing so but ideally for the sake of the music and expansion in a general sense, so this topic is most interesting to me. 

If you play an instrument, especially one employed in rock and jazz, it's always a challenge when you pick up/sit at your instrument to not play cliches and tired forms.  I really think every musician should accept this challenge instead of indulging and lazing in established and thoroughly worn grooves, of which rock'n'roll is the most prevalent and punk the most disgraceful.


Watch Zakir Hussain go off for a few minutes:


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: Viveka]
    #11272457 - 10/18/09 05:05 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Well I feel like we are talking about different things.  My argument is mainly that western music before the 1970's is more complex than anything before it.  I base this off the fact that before the 70's musicians were incorporating elements from world music so if anything is in world music, you can bet some guy was aware of and used it. 

As far as polyrhythms go, I just dont hear it in those videos.  They sound more like a system of a designated number of beats, and then the person solos fitting in hits until he has reached that number of beats.  Basically like 4/4 for example, you can hit 4 quarter notes or 3 quarter and 2 8th notes.  Ultimately though I dont see how that is a polyrhythm.  That jazz solo has clear polyrhythmic elements, but if you want to call that free rhythm thats fine with me also.  Honestly I while I can appreciate the Indian stuff you posted, I got bored of it fairly quickly

However since you are a drummer Im sure you are more knowledgeable about rhythm than myself, so Id be interested in more explanation.  I play the classical guitar

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Offlineelectrics
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: Chespirito]
    #11272521 - 10/18/09 05:18 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Still Plenty of good punk bands=
Rancid
NoFx
Hawthorne Heights
I could go on and on but to me the best punk is still the local small Bangers that play for nothing at the local Skate Park!!
And I agree Keith was the bomb Black Flag was Shit with Henry Rollins he's always been a pumped up mommy's boy!!
listen to some old school Dead Kennedy's and Dead Milkmen and you're faith shall be restored....e


--------------------
"Listen now I'm talking I've been here for weeks, waiting in this growing crowd staring at my feet, The world around me is Turning I'm just standing still, The time has come for changes do something or I will" Phish

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OfflineViveka
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: electrics]
    #11278644 - 10/19/09 04:57 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hawthorne Heights




:rofl2:

Anything you can say in this thread has been instantly invalidated by those two words.

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Offlinedrawde
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Registered: 10/18/09
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: Viveka]
    #11280706 - 10/19/09 09:38 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

propagandhi  :rockon:


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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: drawde]
    #11282124 - 10/20/09 02:51 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

stryper fucking rulez


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Offlinebevardis
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: Infamy456]
    #12431235 - 04/21/10 10:50 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Infamy456 said:
i was actually a real hc punk at one time. i had the leather jacket with like 5000 spiked studs in it, and a foot long green mohawk, and 14 eye long ass doc martin steel toe boots. i was listnenin to "chaos uk" and "disorder"(too very very hardcore british punk bands. i was really into the whole punk thing years ago, the real punk thing. nothing on tv today is not punk. punk was dead when i was into it, and its still dead.




You were just following some rules.

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: bevardis]
    #12431558 - 04/21/10 11:49 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bevardis said:
Quote:

Infamy456 said:
i was actually a real hc punk at one time. i had the leather jacket with like 5000 spiked studs in it, and a foot long green mohawk, and 14 eye long ass doc martin steel toe boots. i was listnenin to "chaos uk" and "disorder"(too very very hardcore british punk bands. i was really into the whole punk thing years ago, the real punk thing. nothing on tv today is not punk. punk was dead when i was into it, and its still dead.




You were just following some rules.



plus a scenester.


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Invisiblenowwhoutthink
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #12432336 - 04/21/10 02:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

punk is just loud pop music...??? :lol:


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OfflineKonyap

Registered: 06/30/07
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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: nowwhoutthink]
    #12435571 - 04/22/10 12:19 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

took me two years to see these guys' whole show

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="
name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param>

thats how you know your fucking punk, when your OWN audience doesnt show up/gets lost.

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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Definition of real "punk rock"? [Re: Konyap]
    #12441125 - 04/22/10 11:09 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

buncha clowns i found on the internet

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="
name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param>

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