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ozzyozzyozzy
Australian
Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 545
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Ascorbic acid + mushroom capsules?
#12383901 - 04/13/10 08:12 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I grind my dried mushrooms and put them in 00 vegatable capsules. I can't take them any other way due to a serious aversion to the taste+texture. I'm not looking for advice that entails removing the mushroom powder from the capsules.
My understanding is that orally-ingested psilocybin is converted into psilocin under very acidic conditions (e.g. in the stomach) and this psilocin is absorbed into the blood-stream via the liver, being a first-pass metabolism drug.
Ascorbic acid, when mixed with psilocybin, helps the dephosphorylation process by increasing/maintaining the acidity, and the high-acidity also helps mitigate/reduce the oxidisation of psilocin (which destroys the pharmacological effect of the drug).
That's why the lemon tek is used as a partial solvent upon shroom powder, to help convert the psilocybin to psilocin pre-ingestion and forestall oxidisation, thereby increasing the onset of the drug's absorption and reducing the potency lost through first-pass metabolism.
I don't have a grounding in science and I'm only just getting into this part of things, so I'm sure I'm getting stuff wrong, but I have a couple questions (assuming I'm grasping the basics of it).
Is the solubility of ascorbic acid + mushroom powder possible post-ingestion? I.e can I take 3.5g of mushroom capsules (0.5g of mushroom powder in a vegetable capsule size 00) over say 20 minutes, following each capsule with a shot of lemon juice, and expect them to mix and have some limited effect within my stomach and small intestine? Or will the delayed onset due to the capsule's dissolving negate any potential benefit?
Secondly, could the effect be achieved similarly by reducing the volume of mushroom powder per capsule and filling the remainder with ground up vitamin c tablets? So 3.5g of mushroom powder would take up say 10 capsules, not 7, with an extra 1.5g of vitamin c filling the balance?
Also, I've noted that people recommend you don't eat for several hours before a trip. It's important to dose on an empty stomach, as the first-pass metabolism effect will great diminish conversion+absorption of psilocin if you have food in the stomach competing with it... but surely you want to eat a few mouthfuls of something easily digestible about 40-50 minutes before dosing, so not only is your stomach empty but your metabolism is running at full speed to help maximise dosage efficiency?
Sorry if I'm writing a bit strangely, I'm tired as fuck and trying to struggle with terminology + scientific concepts I've only learned in the last few days.
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ozzyozzyozzy
Australian
Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 545
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: Ascorbic acid + mushroom capsules? [Re: ozzyozzyozzy]
#12386847 - 04/13/10 05:31 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I also realise that the minor acidity increase in the stomach won't affect the rate of dissolving of the capsules, and both gelatin and vegatable capsules have a similar dissolving rate.
Is this the right forum for this?
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hooka4lifecough
Stranger
Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 105
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
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Re: Ascorbic acid + mushroom capsules? [Re: ozzyozzyozzy]
#12387062 - 04/13/10 06:04 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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SEE MY ANSWERS IN BOLD
Quote:
ozzyozzyozzy said:
Quote:
I grind my dried mushrooms and put them in 00 vegatable capsules. I can't take them any other way due to a serious aversion to the taste+texture. I'm not looking for advice that entails removing the mushroom powder from the capsules.
My understanding is that orally-ingested psilocybin is converted into psilocin under very acidic conditions (e.g. in the stomach) and this psilocin is absorbed into the blood-stream via the liver, being a first-pass metabolism drug.
Ascorbic acid, when mixed with psilocybin, helps the dephosphorylation process by increasing/maintaining the acidity, and the high-acidity also helps mitigate/reduce the oxidisation of psilocin (which destroys the pharmacological effect of the drug).
That's why the lemon tek is used as a partial solvent upon shroom powder, to help convert the psilocybin to psilocin pre-ingestion and forestall oxidisation, thereby increasing the onset of the drug's absorption and reducing the potency lost through first-pass metabolism.
so there is potency lost by your body metabolising psilocybin?
Quote:
I don't have a grounding in science and I'm only just getting into this part of things, so I'm sure I'm getting stuff wrong, but I have a couple questions (assuming I'm grasping the basics of it).
Is the solubility of ascorbic acid + mushroom powder possible post-ingestion? I.e can I take 3.5g of mushroom capsules (0.5g of mushroom powder in a vegetable capsule size 00) over say 20 minutes, following each capsule with a shot of lemon juice, and expect them to mix and have some limited effect within my stomach and small intestine? Or will the delayed onset due to the capsule's dissolving negate any potential benefit?
Yes, but remember your stomach is naturally acidic. When you eat food the PH rises to 3-4 so with lemon juice you can bring the PH down to around 2, but this is exactly why you shld just eat it on an empty stomach. same effect.
Quote:
Secondly, could the effect be achieved similarly by reducing the volume of mushroom powder per capsule and filling the remainder with ground up vitamin c tablets? So 3.5g of mushroom powder would take up say 10 capsules, not 7, with an extra 1.5g of vitamin c filling the balance?
no, i doubt that will do anything, and there is no proof. HOWEVER, i have been researching other nutrients, like iron and calcium which are taken up most efficiently in the duodenum; however, the jejunum, the middle section of the small intestine, is the place where most nutrients are actively absorbed. The amino acids as well as most vitamins and minerals are absorbed in the jejunum. The process of absorption used by the jejunum is called active absorption since your body uses energy to select the exact nutrients it needs. This "active transport" acts as a shuttle, picking up the vitamin or mineral and taking it through the intestinal cell wall into the body, where it may be directly released or transferred to another transport molecule. This is a similar theory to drinking black currant juice (also a MAOI and ppl have reported extraordinary results). Anyways, i wonder if these 'active transports' will also increase potency by way of delivery...just a theory...
Quote:
Also, I've noted that people recommend you don't eat for several hours before a trip. It's important to dose on an empty stomach, as the first-pass metabolism effect will great diminish conversion+absorption of psilocin if you have food in the stomach competing with it... but surely you want to eat a few mouthfuls of something easily digestible about 40-50 minutes before dosing, so not only is your stomach empty but your metabolism is running at full speed to help maximise dosage efficiency?
Sorry if I'm writing a bit strangely, I'm tired as fuck and trying to struggle with terminology + scientific concepts I've only learned in the last few days.
not 40-50min's before and your stomach PH will increase as your stomach will be in the active digestion phase...try eating 3-6 hrs before at a minimum.
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CharlieD123
Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 249
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Quote:
hooka4lifecough said:
no, i doubt that will do anything, and there is no proof. HOWEVER, i have been researching other nutrients, like iron and calcium which are taken up most efficiently in the duodenum; however, the jejunum, the middle section of the small intestine, is the place where most nutrients are actively absorbed. The amino acids as well as most vitamins and minerals are absorbed in the jejunum. The process of absorption used by the jejunum is called active absorption since your body uses energy to select the exact nutrients it needs. This "active transport" acts as a shuttle, picking up the vitamin or mineral and taking it through the intestinal cell wall into the body, where it may be directly released or transferred to another transport molecule. This is a similar theory to drinking black currant juice (also a MAOI and ppl have reported extraordinary results). Anyways, i wonder if these 'active transports' will also increase potency by way of delivery...just a theory...
not 40-50min's before and your stomach PH will increase as your stomach will be in the active digestion phase...try eating 3-6 hrs before at a minimum.
You sound like you've been doing your research hooka4lifecough . I've been browsing the shroomery for a few months now, finding myself recently spending all my free evenings smoking bud and researching on here. I'm absolutely overloading myself with information about cultivation after failing on my first attempt [my second grow went swimmingly Anyways I'm real interested in some of the things you've spoken about in this thread and, as easy as it is to search on the shroomery and get shite loads of information about what i want, i find all threads are conflicting and confusing. So basically if you've got some spare time some time soon and wouldn't mind dropping me a pm and having a chat about some of this stuff I'd really appreciate it. Infact I could probably do you a print or something as a thankyou. Hope to speak soon, Charlie.
-------------------- The Shroomery - It all starts as a simple thirst for knowledge and soon becomes an addiction fed on a daily basis.
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ozzyozzyozzy
Australian
Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 545
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: Ascorbic acid + mushroom capsules? [Re: CharlieD123]
#12387285 - 04/13/10 06:36 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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"so there is potency lost by your body metabolising psilocybin?"
I meant that a certain (variable) % of the psilocybin is not converted into psilocin and passed into the blood supply. p360 of "Pharmacology of Psilocin" (T. Passie et al) says:
"The elimination of glucuronidated metabolites as well as unaltered psilocybin (3-10%) was found to occur through the kidneys."
So this is saying that metabolisation of psilocybin into psilocin is <100%, and my understanding that by increasing acidity and offsetting oxidisation, you could reduce that % of unmetabolised psilocin - essentially just providing the conditions for peak psilocybin conversion.
Regarding not eating food at least 3-4 hrs before dosage, that's fair enough. I didn't realise digestion raised stomach PH. I mostly need to eat food because mushrooms by themselves give me a bit of a headache and eating food helps combat the come-down. Eating food should not pharmacologically affect the trip post-peak, should it? There's no reason why the food would be competing with the psilocybin->psilocin conversion or psilocin uptake across the blood-brain barrier as you have already processed the material either through the liver (or the unconverted psilocybin has passed into the lower intestine).
Is that correct or incorrect?
Edit: To clarify, I mean you eat food about 70 mins (come-up) + 50 mins (peak) after dosage, depending on the time specific to the individual. I.e so ~2 hrs after dosing you can eat, providing your peak has finished and everything has been processed. It'd settle your stomach, stop hunger pangs + headaches, but won't affect the strength of the trip.
Edited by ozzyozzyozzy (04/13/10 06:41 PM)
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hooka4lifecough
Stranger
Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 105
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
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^Makes sense.
You can definitely eat IF you feel like it once its fully absorbed and your stomach can handle it. Personally I can only eat once i've come down, otherwise it doesn't feel right. I've had friends say they sober up a bit after they eat.
Don't worry so much about digestion...look into other things like MAOI's and such, there's been more conclusive evidence on those topics. Personally i like to do a combo: lemon tek and capsules. I peak for a long time like that and the waves really hit hard.
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hooka4lifecough
Stranger
Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 105
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
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Re: Ascorbic acid + mushroom capsules? [Re: CharlieD123]
#12387728 - 04/13/10 07:37 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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charlie - PM'd
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