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 daytripper23
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 “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening
#12287717 - 03/28/10 12:15 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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One at a time:
(1) Both the sravakas and the middling buddhas are produced from the teachings of the most excellent sage, and every buddha is himself born from a bodhisattva. The generative causes of the sons of the conquerors (or bodhisattvas) are the thought of compassion, non dualistic knowledge, and the thought of awakening
So I notice that every Buddha is born from a boddhisatva - and the given definition of bodhisattva is a son of the conquerer.
Considering this terminology, am I correct to read that this "conquerer" is a Buddha? That would mean they are sons of each other...?
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Icelander
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: daytripper23] 1
#12288018 - 03/28/10 01:13 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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That's nice.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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daytripper23
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: Icelander]
#12288279 - 03/28/10 02:06 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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An attitude of sentimentality is clearly not how to go about it. Yes, joy is mentioned, but I am pretty sure the point is to circumscribe and understand it. It seems the point of the passage is specifically to understand its specific order of its arising - not just to make a blurb. So if you've already assumed a sentimental outlook, I think you've entirely overlooked the intended meaning of the passage.
(2) Before all else I praise compassion; for this sympathy is regarded as the seed of the precious harvest [which is] the conquerors, as the water that nourishes [this crop] and as the ripening process that ields mature fruit after some time.
(3)I bow down to this compassion arising for all living beings who have first generated self-infactuation through the thought "I" and then attatchment to objects through the thought "this is mine," so that like a paddlewheel they wander round and round devoid of self-determination
(4-5) The sons of the conquerors see these creatures as fluctuating and empty of intrisic being like the reflection of the moon in shimmering water. The first stage in generation of the thought of awakening is dominated by compassion directed toward the liberation of all living beings, and fixed in happiness that grows from the vow of universal good. Because he has obtained [the thought of awakening], from this moment on he is designated by the title bodhisattva
Edited by daytripper23 (03/28/10 02:31 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: daytripper23]
#12288375 - 03/28/10 02:37 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sounds like the beginnings of a great video game. 
I think compassion is the best, a really great feeling. If it feels good then do it. Right?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: Icelander]
#12288396 - 03/28/10 02:42 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Do it!
*cue funky drum beat*
Do it!
Do it!
*basso fundo voce*
Whatever it is.
Do it 'til your satisfied.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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daytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: Icelander]
#12288441 - 03/28/10 02:56 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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"I think compassion is the best, a really great feeling. If it feels good then do it."
Yeah, kind of like that, but your still beyond me. Where did you get that?
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Icelander
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: daytripper23] 2
#12288856 - 03/28/10 04:29 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Were did I get compassion? It came with the hard drive.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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 MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
 
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: Icelander] 1
#12288989 - 03/28/10 04:54 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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--------------------
    
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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daytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: Icelander]
#12289363 - 03/28/10 06:30 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Right, I find that this doctrine is of interest in understanding that. What is the pragmatic "situation" - where is joy or compassion, and how does it manifest?
You seem to find it a bit absurd? Well so far, ha-ha absurd, but what about the more straight-faced absurdity?
For instance, there does not seem to be any reason to have compassion for an animal, yet for some reason we may do this, without any true positive feedback. This is absurd. That, or we use the animal as a tool for self-fullfillment, and you've said before that this is not the right way to connect with an animal. You've suggested that there must be a pragmatic basis, and I find that you will not be able to hide the fact that this approach is supposed to be liberating - I would further elaborate that this is not because liberation is something, but because the only alternative is to cage the animal, so long as we acknowledge our actions.
"Liberation" is something though, and as such, it is seen as problematic. I think that this pragmatic liberation you suggest, is actually similar to the doctrine of dependent origination, or emptiness:
You have described before that there is necessarily a pragmatic basis of learning - that you only truly teach the animal, as the animal teaches you. By other means you have only dictated the animal. So only upon this plain of dependency is there true learning, rather than caging the animal. This dependency is very much like the foregoing description of the Bodhisattva.
In Buddhist terminology, dependency is synonymous with emptiness - it is descriptive of the aforementioned emptiness of compassion, as well as the emptiness of the doctrine itself.
But to your suggestion, how is this pragmatic basis instantiated? I think we both know how mundane - and indoctrinating it is to train a dog... So long as we see it as something.
When you are looking for something to specifically swallow, or rather spit back up, there is no possibility of learning. But as the Buddhists postulate (they do not justify the point) - since liberation is something, but is empty, compassion and liberation can genuinely occur in consistency with mundane reality.
This truth appears doctrinally. It appears as something, an object, we are subject to. But if it is correct as you say, that nihilism of all things, even leads one to subjective perspective, you would not even escape the (subject to...) even in the most steadfast rejection.
I have found by personal experience, that if you are stuck on whether and how the dog gets a carrot, or by the many manifestations of these objects, there is no possibility of training. But if you, the dog, the carrot, are all empty, the possibility of liberation and compassion make sense. There is no proof for this, what is referred to as the "soteriological truth" (of liberation). This is because we truly acknowledge its pragmatic instantiation. Further, it is held to be the actual plain of reality
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(6) He is born into the family of the tathagatas and rids himself completely of the three bonds9; the bodhisattva fosters a sublime joy and is capable of shaking a hundred world systems.
(7)
Mounting from stage to stage he will make his ascent, [but even] at this time he will have eradicated the paths leading to rebirth in bad migrations12. For him [any possibility of] life as a common man is now absolutely exhausted and he is assigned the same [status] as a saint of the eighth rank (commonly referred to as stream-enterer).
(8) Even a bodhisattva who has reached no further than this first stage in the vision of the thought of perfect awakening excels by the force of his merit, and triumphs over both the pratyekabuddhas and the sravakas born from the words of the most excellent sage; and at the stage called "far advanced" (Durangama), he will surpass them in intelligence (dhi) as well.
----------------------------------
Useful notes:
9These are 1. attachment to philosophical views 2. attatchment to conventional standards of morality, custom, and ritual practices 3. doubt or confusion about the possibility of attaining awakening
12 A bad migration includes birth in any of the hell regions and birth as an animal or a hungry ghost (preta). Bad migrations are also realms of experience accessible through meditation as well as states of mind occurring spontaneously when the requisite conditions are present. With reference to this last aspect in relation to all six realms of samsara, Conze 1962, 256: "One and the same object, say a river, leads to a transformation of inward thought, a 'pure fantasy' as we might say, and that for all practical purposes the external object does not exist. The hungry ghosts, by way of retribution of their past deeds, see nothing but pus, urine and excrement; the fishes find there a home; men see fresh and pure water which can be used for washing and drinking; and the gods of the station of infinite space see only space."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,568
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: daytripper23]
#12289538 - 03/28/10 07:13 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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I still say this would make a great video game.
And how did you know I train my dog with carrots?
As to the rest... who is empty? Isn't it everyone all the time?
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: Icelander]
#12289797 - 03/28/10 08:14 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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"I still say this would make a great video game."
Why not? Remember, suffering hurts though.
"And how did you know I train my dog with carrots?"
No, I train my dog with carrots, and lots of people do. But I think I heard you say that before too.
"As to the rest... who is empty? Isn't it everyone all the time?"
"Who" is empty? 
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Icelander
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: daytripper23] 1
#12290104 - 03/28/10 09:26 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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6) He is born into the family of the tathagatas and rids himself completely of the three bonds9; the bodhisattva fosters a sublime joy and is capable of shaking a hundred world systems.
(7)
Mounting from stage to stage he will make his ascent, [but even] at this time he will have eradicated the paths leading to rebirth in bad migrations12. For him [any possibility of] life as a common man is now absolutely exhausted and he is assigned the same [status] as a saint of the eighth rank (commonly referred to as stream-enterer).
(8) Even a bodhisattva who has reached no further than this first stage in the vision of the thought of perfect awakening excels by the force of his merit, and triumphs over both the pratyekabuddhas and the sravakas born from the words of the most excellent sage; and at the stage called "far advanced" (Durangama), he will surpass them in intelligence (dhi) as well.
Let's create the Buddhist video game of enlightenment. The goal would be to become completely empty. Suffering wouldn't hurt on a video game.
All this is empty, no who, no what, no Bodhisattva, no nothing. It's all  business but in "reality" empty.
The process is on auto pilot. Everything we do is part of the program. Nothing is going on outside of what is already programmed.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
Edited by Icelander (03/28/10 09:27 PM)
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daytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: Icelander]
#12291835 - 03/29/10 09:00 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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"When all things are empty...where is there any proposition?"
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GrimaceTheFrog
Actually Stonehenge
Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 529
Loc: aussieland
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: daytripper23]
#12291857 - 03/29/10 09:05 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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what
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no
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 67,568
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: daytripper23] 1
#12292013 - 03/29/10 09:34 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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I agree with the possibility that behind appearances all of it may be empty. But I find that information, if true, of limited usefulness in a human body where things appear and are not "empty". Let's deal with becoming healthy and happy before we try for enlightenment. If we did that then enlightenment might become less of an obsession around here. And becoming emotionally relatively healthy seems a more realistic goal than "enlightenment".
OC please notice the use of then and than. 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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dill705
Amazed
Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 3,779
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: Icelander]
#12292068 - 03/29/10 09:43 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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This thread is full of win 
--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.
-Icelander-
I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!
~dill705~
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,568
Loc: underbelly
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: dill705]
#12292099 - 03/29/10 09:48 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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As win as it gets around here.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: Icelander]
#12292720 - 03/29/10 11:47 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
OC please notice the use of then and than.
And the student becomes the Master! 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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daytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: Icelander]
#12293548 - 03/29/10 02:15 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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It is strange how warm gooey sentiment has enveloped what could have been an even-minded study of this text.
I think obsession is more indicative of the many projections of sentiment into this thread.
Your approach from the very beginning seems to be to find a "heart", and then squeeze the life out of it. But this thread is not about such an object of interest.
So I tried to toss you "a bone", but you wouldn't touch it. That's the best I can do.
Personally, I have never felt so free than in these last few months - I study and practice formally now, and it is also more than that. I suppose you could call that obsession if you want. I call it graduating, and I call it philosophy, and a practice. Each of these namesakes is a convention, and a possible attachment, but I will deal with that.
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GrimaceTheFrog
Actually Stonehenge
Registered: 03/07/10
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#12293556 - 03/29/10 02:16 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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what the hell
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no
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: daytripper23] 1
#12293602 - 03/29/10 02:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
daytripper23 said:
It is strange how warm gooey sentiment has enveloped what could have been an even-minded study of this text.
I think obsession is more indicative of the many projections of sentiment into this thread.
Your approach from the very beginning seems to be to find a "heart", and then squeeze the life out of it. But this thread is not about such an object of interest.
So I tried to toss you "a bone", but you wouldn't touch it. That's the best I can do.
Personally, I have never felt so free than in these last few months - I study and practice formally now, and it is also more than that. I suppose you could call that obsession if you want. I call it graduating, and I call it philosophy, and a practice. Each of these namesakes is a convention, and a possible attachment, but I will deal with that.
Look at how many people chimed in to your study. If you could just get off your high horse you might get somewhere.
Why don't you just continue your practice and forget the posting. That is until you learn how to communicate with the lesser mortals.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: Icelander]
#12293658 - 03/29/10 02:35 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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I will address your continued projections succinctly in another thread, where I can prove it succinctly.
Here it just seems to be a circuitous narrative of itself.
Wait just a moment and I will address your concern.
Until then hold onto your britches
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GrimaceTheFrog
Actually Stonehenge
Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 529
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: Icelander]
#12293672 - 03/29/10 02:38 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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your posts make zero sense dude
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no
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Simulacra541
Nobody
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: GrimaceTheFrog]
#12293691 - 03/29/10 02:41 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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if you want to be liberated, be liberated
and if you want to have compassion, have compassion
I don't see why you need to understand them first
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,568
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: daytripper23]
#12293723 - 03/29/10 02:47 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
daytripper23 said:
I will address your continued projections succinctly in another thread, where I can prove it succinctly.
Here it just seems to be a circuitous narrative of itself.
Wait just a moment and I will address your concern.
Until then hold onto your britches
Oh I can't wait. 
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: GrimaceTheFrog]
#12293754 - 03/29/10 02:50 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
GrimaceTheFrog said:
your posts make zero sense dude
I will address your projections too then.
Edited by daytripper23 (03/29/10 02:51 PM)
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GrimaceTheFrog
Actually Stonehenge
Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 529
Loc: aussieland
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: Icelander]
#12293770 - 03/29/10 02:52 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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what is a projection??
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no
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,568
Loc: underbelly
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: GrimaceTheFrog]
#12293837 - 03/29/10 03:02 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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hairybear
Stranger
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: Icelander]
#12293925 - 03/29/10 03:20 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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GrimaceTheFrog
Actually Stonehenge
Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 529
Loc: aussieland
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: Icelander]
#12294009 - 03/29/10 03:34 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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yeah honestly bro i don't think i'm projecting?? wtf
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no
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dill705
Amazed
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Re: “The Joyous” The First Stage in the Generation of the Thought of Awakening [Re: GrimaceTheFrog]
#12295082 - 03/29/10 06:58 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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As I understand projection, you never stop projecting your inner landscape and belief constructs onto your perceptions.
Got it?
--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.
-Icelander-
I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!
~dill705~
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