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 Computerism
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 Judaism
#12169678 - 03/09/10 09:22 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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deCypher's Roma thread reminded me that I recently found out I was an Eastern European Jew on my father's side. (He was adopted and we knew nothing of his genetics until I did a paternal DNA test through National Geographic.) I seem to have the highest DNA matches with Jewish people from Latvia and Belarus as well as other former-Soviet countries.
Judaism is pretty much identical throughout the Orthodox sects, isn't it? There's not like "Latvian Orthodox" like there would be with Catholicism, right? (I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong on this.)
I know there is Conservative and Reformed Judaism, and probably some others as well. But from an outsiders perspective, the Orthodox version seems like it would most match the original teachings. Is that correct?
Since Judaism is inherited matrilineally (via the mother), would an Orthodox Jewish person even consider me a Jew since it is all on my father's side? Does the Eastern European connection have any further meaning to it, or is a Jew just a Jew and it doesn't matter where they're from?
I'm just curious and hoping that someone here has a few answers.
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Silversoul
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Quote:
Computerism said:
Judaism is pretty much identical throughout the Orthodox sects, isn't it? There's not like "Latvian Orthodox" like there would be with Catholicism, right? (I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong on this.)
Far from it. There are several different currents of Orthodox Judaism, ranging from strict legalism to Kabbalistic mysticism. There are very conservative forms of orthodoxy, and there is modern orthodoxy. There are also regional differences between Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and other groups of Jews.
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 c0sm0nautt
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Like most religions, the mystical sects were the ones who knew what was up.
Judaism --> Kabbalahism
Christianity --> Gnosticism
Islam --> Sufism
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astralsun.blogspot.com
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
  
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Computerism
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I assume there are different types of Jewish Kabbalah as well. On Wikipedia it says, "It is hard to clarify with any degree of certainty the exact concepts within Kabbalah. There are several different schools of thought with very different outlooks; however, all are accepted as correct."
Nice.
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Computerism
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Spent part of the morning reading about Kabbalah... doesn't seem worth any further investigation for me. It's the same as everything else. 
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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c0sm0nautt
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Do realize it is an immense subject people dedicate there lives to. It can be overwhelming and easily dismissible if glossed over. See how you like this book.
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astralsun.blogspot.com
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
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RiverRat427
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Indeed there are many different schools of thought within Judaism as well as different forms of Kaballah/Qubalah/Cabala from the mystical, to the rabbinic, occult, and Kaballah WaterTM pushing forms.
In most forms of Judaism (certainly in Orthodoxy) if you're mother isn't Jewish one must convert in order to be considered a Jew by the community. Once one converts though, they aren't considered to be a different kind of Jew from those who born Jewish.
The biggest differences withing the Jewish community derive from the differnt cultures in which the communities formed. Most Eastern European Jews belong to the Askenazic (German) branch of the Jewish community. The other biggest branches are the Sephardic (Spanish) and Mizrahi (Middle Eastern) Jews along with smaller communities form places like Ethiopia and the Southern Arabian peninsula. They all have the same beliefs and use the same scripture, but they say their prayers in different order during services and have different practices when it comes to celebrating the sabbath and holidays and stuff like that.
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Computerism
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Do realize it is an immense subject people dedicate there lives to. It can be overwhelming and easily dismissible if glossed over. See how you like this book.
Yeah, it's just too much. I'm already trying to unlearn past mystic teachings, live by my senses and embrace simplicity.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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RiverRat427
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Do realize it is an immense subject people dedicate there lives to. It can be overwhelming and easily dismissible if glossed over. See how you like this book.
Damn fine book on the subject, if I do say so myself. But it's about what the title states, the Mystical Qabalah. A lifetime could be dedicated to the study of it alone but it's not the only form of the Qabalah in existence.
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Don't tase me, bro!
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The Chronic
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Quote:
Computerism said:
Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Do realize it is an immense subject people dedicate there lives to. It can be overwhelming and easily dismissible if glossed over. See how you like this book.
Yeah, it's just too much. I'm already trying to unlearn past mystic teachings, live by my senses and embrace simplicity.
Then your coming into the true teaching that unveils the mystery 
Silence
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 skatealex2
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Quote:
Chronic777 said:
Then your coming into the true teaching that unveils the mystery
Silence
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
Computerism said:
Spent part of the morning reading about Kabbalah... doesn't seem worth any further investigation for me. It's the same as everything else.
Well...I beg to differ with your conclusion (which, after one morning, is way too premature IMO). I'd recommend one book that will set you back some $4.98, but you'll understand the essential system better than anyone who hasn't read this little gem (I've read quite a bit including the classical authors, Scholem, Franck, Waite, Fortune, Crowley: Kabbalah, Cabala and Qabalah):
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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Olympus Mons
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there was an episode of seinfeld about the latvian orthodox church.
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I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....
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Computerism
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
Computerism said:
Spent part of the morning reading about Kabbalah... doesn't seem worth any further investigation for me. It's the same as everything else.
Well...I beg to differ with your conclusion (which, after one morning, is way too premature IMO). I'd recommend one book that will set you back some $4.98, but you'll understand the essential system better than anyone who hasn't read this little gem (I've read quite a bit including the classical authors, Scholem, Franck, Waite, Fortune, Crowley: Kabbalah, Cabala and Qabalah):
That's a nice list of names, but it doesn't really explain to me what any of it is about. You're going to have to give me a little more to go on before I decide if it's worth the trouble. Why are you so enthusiastic about Kabbalah?
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RiverRat427
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Quote:
Olympus Mons said:
there was an episode of seinfeld about the latvian orthodox church.
That's a branch of the Eastern Orthodox Christian church.
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
Computerism said:
Spent part of the morning reading about Kabbalah... doesn't seem worth any further investigation for me. It's the same as everything else.
Well...I beg to differ with your conclusion (which, after one morning, is way too premature IMO). I'd recommend one book that will set you back some $4.98, but you'll understand the essential system better than anyone who hasn't read this little gem (I've read quite a bit including the classical authors, Scholem, Franck, Waite, Fortune, Crowley: Kabbalah, Cabala and Qabalah):
Thanks, man!!! I remember seeing that little book everywhere in occult shops back in the day before I really delved into studying Qabalah and by the time I did there were a lot more other books available (esp. after the Kabbalah Center popularization) and it wasn't so easy to find among all the other more elaborate, fluffed up, not to mention more profitable for vendors, ones. I'm gonna check that out ASAP.
Props 
Edited by RiverRat427 (03/11/10 02:49 PM)
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deCypher
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Do realize it is an immense subject people dedicate there lives to. It can be overwhelming and easily dismissible if glossed over. See how you like this book.
This was a great book.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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RiverRat427
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said:
Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Do realize it is an immense subject people dedicate there lives to. It can be overwhelming and easily dismissible if glossed over. See how you like this book.
This was a great book.
I second that statement. I've read that twice and I could still go back and learn something new each time.
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MarkostheGnostic
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It seems that RiverRat427 and Mr. Cypher have my back on this. If you can't go for a B&N $4.98 book and find out first hand, then I'm done doing my part here. "Let those with ears, hear."
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Computerism
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
It seems that RiverRat427 and Mr. Cypher have my back on this. If you can't go for a B&N $4.98 book and find out first hand, then I'm done doing my part here. "Let those with ears, hear."
Nah, I'm not gonna bother hunting down a book on something that doesn't interest me if the people who like it can't tell me anything about it.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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RiverRat427
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It's a Jewish mystical system drawing from the Bible and the dissertations thereon which can help people empower and better understand themselves, the nature of man, the nature of God, the nature of the cosmos, the nature of evil and ignorance, and then some. It's basically a road map back to paradise if you can grasp the lessons which it contains. MarkosTheGnostic gave you a good list of places to start your search if you're interested in doing so, but understand that spiritual understanding (gnosis) is entirely different from intellectual understanding so if you're just going to gloss over it it's probably not worth your time. But if you want better intellectual understanding it's good for that, too, if you take the time to mull it over.
It's hard to have somebody explain an entire mystical system in a blurb on a message board. It's the basis of most (pretty much all) Western occult, esoteric, and mystery traditions and it's worth at least a gander if you plan on seriously studying mysticism or magic as more then just a favored reading topic to pass time.
When it all comes down to it do whatever tickles your pickle. I wouldn't think any less of you for your choice, in this life you gotta do you.
Peace
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Don't tase me, bro!
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Computerism
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I guess the questions I'm trying to get answered are these:
1. Why do you study Kabbalah?
2. What practical uses does it have?
3. What has it done for YOU?
4. How is it going to help me in my every day life?
You answered the first two questions (sort of) in your first paragraph, but no one has answered the last two.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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redgreenvines
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the core of judaism is the Torah
kabalism came much later and is not core
hasidism came later too and while not core it is very rigorous like the sufis or like tibetan buddhism
the torah is the original old testament ant it is used in the same version for all sects of judaism.
aside from that there is a siddur which is used for prayer ceremonies
surprisingly,
with all the variance, and cultural distinctions, the service is substantially the same for each jewish sect (, except reform which is purposefully simplified), and if any congregation lacks 10 men (known as a minyan) it will send out for any kind of jew to join them and participate to make the service bonafide.
I like this inclusive part of it, but I resist being included by just lying, cause I do not like being in synagogue that much.
all religions make me dizzy.
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Computerism
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
all religions make me dizzy.
Haha. Thank you for being so candid. That's one of the things that bugs me is that the Torah is basically just the Old Testament. Sometimes it has the Talmud added on. I already disavowed myself from the Old Testament when I denied Christianity. Plus, I'd say I've always liked the New Testament better than the Old Testament, so if I were to do anything involving the Bible, I'd just accept Jesus as my savior, sit back and wait for an easy salvation. ;-)
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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deCypher
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The Torah is for those who go to synagogue, the Talmud is for the intellectuals/philosophers, and the Qabalah (Kabbalah?) is for the wise men or mystics. This was a good description I read from I can't remember where.
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RiverRat427
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1-I came across it in my spiritual studies and found it very useful, as a Christian practicing Christian mysticism and Christio-conjure, to better understand the mysticism being practiced at the same time/in the same area as Jesus.
2-Practically, it helped me to get a better understanding how Judeo-Christian teachings compare to other systems of mysticism (Dion Fortune refers to it repeatedly in the book for which the link was given, as "the yoga of the west" which is a pretty accurate assessment).
It's also helped me glean better understanding of the Bible by learning about "gematria", a Quabalistic practice (refered to as "the literal Quabalah") which focuses on the Hebrew alphabet and language as the language of God that bears far deeper meaning than the words and sentences contain at face value. If you're familiar with the Runic alphabet and it's significance in Northern European pagan practices it's similar to that. Each letter has a mystical significance and magical attribution and when they're put together into words, boy howdy. All of a sudden the Bible is more then just a book of stories with morals and lessons but a living code containing the mysteries of the universe.
It plays a big part in western Ritual Magick (that's what separates magic with a 'c' from magick with a 'ck'). The Hebrew words are like the mantras of the east and when pronounced out loud (especially the names of God) bring on changes of consciousness and have magical effects on the environment around you.
3-For me since I began studying it I've become more empowered and had a greater sense of inner peace. It's basically taught me that I'm not just a part of God's creation as a macrocosm but I am God, creation, and the entire universe as a microcosm. Everything that's a part of us is a part of it and vice versa.
I've also gained better understanding of the Bible (Old and New Testament) and the words of Christ.
Essentially the Quabalah is a form of Jewish Gnosticism, it teaches us not to strive for God and heaven but to become consciously united with God which will make heaven unfold "before our eyes" here on earth.
4-Pretty much contained in questions 1-3. The benefits are spiritual growth and enlightenment, personal growth and empowerment, cultivating inner peace and closeness to God.
Like I said it's really deep and hard to discuss any kind of mysticism basically over a message board to someone not familiar with it. It's like trying to explain the feelings/experience of a psychedelic trip to someone who's never tripped before. It helps us dissolve ignorance and our ego and become a part of the divine. It's objectives really aren't any different then any other form of mysticism/spiritual practice, but it comes from a Jewish context and works best for those who follow a Judeo-Christian faith/belief system.
It's worth checking out for yourself, then decide whether you want to pursue it or not. I did and I'd never go back to how I was before I discovered it.
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Don't tase me, bro!
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skatealex2
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Quote:
Computerism said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
all religions make me dizzy.
Haha. Thank you for being so candid. That's one of the things that bugs me is that the Torah is basically just the Old Testament. Sometimes it has the Talmud added on. I already disavowed myself from the Old Testament when I denied Christianity. Plus, I'd say I've always liked the New Testament better than the Old Testament, so if I were to do anything involving the Bible, I'd just accept Jesus as my savior, sit back and wait for an easy salvation. ;-)
Pretty sure the Torah was around before the testament. 
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Computerism
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Yeah, it appears I had the general gist of it. It's not for me.
I first learned of Kabbalah when I read Crowley's "Book 4" 14 years ago. Then I looked at it off and on since then in various incarnations, including the Qlipoth. Then you see it in the news when people mention Madonna, which is just the funniest shit. Plus a 2nd or 3rd aunt of mine is really into it and recently moved to Israel, but I really don't know her very well. She's a total fruitcake.
The other day when I examined it intently for a couple hours in the morning, I was in effect finalizing my decision whether or not to follow it. I was kind of giving it one more chance in light of my new genetic information, but I really don't think genetics plays any part in what path is mine. I have to go it alone. ;-)
I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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Computerism
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Quote:
skatealex2 said:
Pretty sure the Torah was around before the testament.
The Torah includes the 5 books of Moses which are in the Old Testament, so that is what I was referring to.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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The Chronic
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Like most religions, the mystical sects were the ones who knew what was up.
Judaism --> Kabbalahism
Christianity --> Gnosticism
Islam --> Sufism
Hinduism - Advaita Vedanta
Buddhism - Buddhahood
Its basically the difference between following it or actually embodying it
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RiverRat427
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People like Madonna make it look bad, that's called fanaticism not Qabalah. Just go with whatever works for you and for what you understand, not what you feel like you should be going with. Qabalah is just a system I find useful.
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Don't tase me, bro!
Edited by RiverRat427 (03/12/10 10:20 AM)
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Computerism
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Quote:
Chronic777 said:
Hinduism - Advaita Vedanta
Buddhism - Buddhahood
Its basically the difference between following it or actually embodying it
Yes, Buddhism can be exceptionally powerful, especially if one does not limit themselves to the Zen school.
Quote:
RiverRat427 said:
People like Madonna make it look bad, that's called fanaticism not Qabalah.
It's just funny that anyone would follow a spiritual practice because Madonna does it and that she goes around advertising it like anyone should care what she thinks. It's nothing against the practice itself.
Edited by Computerism (03/12/10 12:53 PM)
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RiverRat427
Something funny happened...
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Quote:
Computerism said:
Quote:
RiverRat427 said:
People like Madonna make it look bad, that's called fanaticism not Qabalah.
It's just funny that anyone would follow a spiritual practice because Madonna does it and that she goes around advertising it like anyone should care what she thinks. It's nothing against the practice itself.
Yeah, I get that and I agree completely. I would have love to have been there at the Kaballah Center on Rosh Hashanah when they blew the shofar and fucking A-Rod's yarmulke & tallis clad Puerto Rican ass held up the torah.  And now Madonna's old ass has got the baby Jesus taking Kaballah classes before retiring out to their Kaballah WaterTM filled swimming pool. Some people are ridiculous, it's like The Very Brady Movie version of spirituality.
The ultimate goals of Qabalah aren't any different from any other form of mysticism or spirituality, say Buddhism or Tantra or whatever. While it's more elaborate that some systems, those elaborations usually are useful for reaching those objectives which help us reach the ultimate, as opposed to a direct route. It just grew out of a specific cultural context and is works best for those who work within that context.
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Don't tase me, bro!
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MarkostheGnostic
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Fair enough. A paraphrase won't do the book justice, and you are quite obviously not ready for what it teaches anyway.
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MarkostheGnostic
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It just grew out of a specific cultural context and is works best for those who work within that context
This is true of Kabbalah, but it is not true of Qabalah. In the latter spelling, much of the colorless and abstract principles have been distilled from the very Jewish context, and it becomes known as an occult or esoteric idiom, rather than as a strictly religious one (as in Lubavitcher spirituality). In passing, I'll only mention Cabala, which is a Christianizing adaptation of Kabbalah.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
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I think I'll refer to it as QBLH from now on.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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RiverRat427
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True, but I'm not apt to get into such a deep topic on a message board. Perhaps I would have been better off keeping my mouth shut, or rather my fingers still. I was just trying to help the kid glean some insights into my perspective on it's practice. I don't think anyone could paraphrase anything having to do with Kabbalah/Quabalah/Cabala without ending up having written their own book on the subject.
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Don't tase me, bro!
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Computerism
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Fair enough. A paraphrase won't do the book justice, and you are quite obviously not ready for what it teaches anyway.
Wow, buddy. I think you need to lose the attitude. Is everyone on Earth supposed to be into the same things you are? Obviously it appealed to you on some superficial level before you really got into it, but it doesn't appeal to me. Get over it.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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Computerism
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Quote:
RiverRat427 said:
True, but I'm not apt to get into such a deep topic on a message board. Perhaps I would have been better off keeping my mouth shut, or rather my fingers still. I was just trying to help the kid glean some insights into my perspective on it's practice. I don't think anyone could paraphrase anything having to do with Kabbalah/Quabalah/Cabala without ending up having written their own book on the subject.
I'm not a kid. I think you confuse low post count with age and life experience. You really should feel free to discuss your personal point of view on a topic, rather than just throwing books at people. There's nothing that makes the author of that book any better than you. In fact, I don't really see a point to reading books unless you can communicate what you've learned to others in the course of day-to-day life. Perhaps that goes against some hermetic code you have, but I appreciate your speaking up and explaining things in your own words. 
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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deCypher
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Occult means hidden for a reason, yo. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Computerism
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said:
Occult means hidden for a reason, yo.
The era of hiding is long over.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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deCypher
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And the era of surveillance has begun!
:NWO:
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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RiverRat427
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Fair enough. A paraphrase won't do the book justice, and you are quite obviously not ready for what it teaches anyway.
I'm pretty sure that comment was meant for me based on my half-assed attempt of assessing hundreds of years of spiritual tradition from which evolved many different branches/applications in a few paragraphs.
Quote:
Computerism said:
I'm not a kid. I think you confuse low post count with age and life experience. You really should feel free to discuss your personal point of view on a topic, rather than just throwing books at people. There's nothing that makes the author of that book any better than you. In fact, I don't really see a point to reading books unless you can communicate what you've learned to others in the course of day-to-day life. Perhaps that goes against some hermetic code you have, but I appreciate your speaking up and explaining things in your own words.
Shit man, I wasn't trying to be condescending with the kid comment. I didn't even realize it at the time. I just talk that way because I'm a kid (I'm only 18) so I assume everyone I'm talking to on-line is a peer. It's hard to tell when you're just looking at words on a screen. Sorry about that.
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Don't tase me, bro!
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Computerism
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said:
And the era of surveillance has begun!
:NWO:
People are giving up their personal information quite willingly it seems. Facebook, MySpace, Google, Shroomery, Twitter, some part of the hive knows who you are and what you're doing almost all the time and we just hand it all over to them. It was brilliant to extend the leviathan electronically and make us want to be counted. Most people find it nearly impossible to unplug; they MUST keep telling people what they're doing. Where can one hide from the robotic eyes? They'd have to give up cell phone service.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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Computerism
Propagandist
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Quote:
RiverRat427 said:
Shit man, I wasn't trying to be condescending with the kid comment. I didn't even realize it at the time. I just talk that way because I'm a kid (I'm only 18) so I assume everyone I'm talking to on-line is a peer. It's hard to tell when you're just looking at words on a screen. Sorry about that.
Don't worry about it. That's cool. Sorry if I caused any discomfort. 
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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In which case I'm fucked because I use my cellphone to score dr00gz and game women.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Computerism
Propagandist
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said:
In which case I'm fucked because I use my cellphone to score dr00gz and game women.
Verizon (or whoever) probably has all your messages saved to a special server and has contacted the FBI by now. They know all your lingo. They know when you text your friend "I need some new socks," what you really mean is you want an eightball.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
Edited by Computerism (03/12/10 03:12 PM)
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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FUCK
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Computerism
Propagandist
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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RiverRat427
Something funny happened...
Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 1,076
Loc: ..on the road to Damascus
Last seen: 2 months, 29 days
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Quote:
Computerism said:
Quote:
RiverRat427 said:
Shit man, I wasn't trying to be condescending with the kid comment. I didn't even realize it at the time. I just talk that way because I'm a kid (I'm only 18) so I assume everyone I'm talking to on-line is a peer. It's hard to tell when you're just looking at words on a screen. Sorry about that.
Don't worry about it. That's cool. Sorry if I caused any discomfort.
Not at all. Thanks for appreciating my half-assed assessment.
Unlike Markos I don't have a Ph.D., and I've kind of been lapsed in my spiritual study for a couple of years so I may not have all my p's and q's exactly in order when it comes to being in a position to explain something so complex to someone else but I still have the knowledge that's I've gained through it's application. I'm just rusty on the technicalities.
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Don't tase me, bro!
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Computerism
Propagandist
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Quote:
RiverRat427 said:
Unlike Markos I don't have a Ph.D., and I've kind of been lapsed in my spiritual study for a couple of years so I may not have all my p's and q's exactly in order when it comes to being in a position to explain something so complex to someone else but I still have the knowledge that's I've gained through it's application. I'm just rusty on the technicalities.
I don't think you need a Ph.D or any other certificates. You're a good person. You both are. You want to help me out and Markos wants me to learn it "right." No one was trying to hurt anyone. 
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
RiverRat427 said:
True, but I'm not apt to get into such a deep topic on a message board. Perhaps I would have been better off keeping my mouth shut, or rather my fingers still. I was just trying to help the kid glean some insights into my perspective on it's practice. I don't think anyone could paraphrase anything having to do with Kabbalah/Quabalah/Cabala without ending up having written their own book on the subject.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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Unlike Markos, you're not 56 years old either.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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curenado
73rd Man
Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 2,601
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Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
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Quote:
Computerism said:
Quote:
Mr. Cypher said:
Occult means hidden for a reason, yo.
The era of hiding is long over.
No it's not
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
RiverRat427 said:
True, but I'm not apt to get into such a deep topic on a message board. Perhaps I would have been better off keeping my mouth shut, or rather my fingers still. I was just trying to help the kid glean some insights into my perspective on it's practice. I don't think anyone could paraphrase anything having to do with Kabbalah/Quabalah/Cabala without ending up having written their own book on the subject.
Seems like if it speaks to you when you're exploring it then good, if not then not. That, I believe be the rules anyway - along with doing your own homework, and when someone offers you a reference for your own consideration just accept it as maybe a kindness instead of a blowoff - saying "Well if you're not gonna tell me I'm not interested" sounds like it might be your loss and may be thought by some to be a means to get others to do your study/meditation for you and hand you something on a plate that doesn't really work that way.
You have to make your own plate with torat haSod and then see what gets put on it.
Only the structures can really be explained - the rest is up to each and if they are lucky enough to have a good explainer (sharer/teacher) for tips along the way. But not on a forum like this and definitely not Madonna...
Also - not to argue lineage or anything which I wouldn't but "Jew is in the Heart" this be the word of God....
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Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."
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RiverRat427
Something funny happened...
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
It just grew out of a specific cultural context and is works best for those who work within that context
This is true of Kabbalah, but it is not true of Qabalah. In the latter spelling, much of the colorless and abstract principles have been distilled from the very Jewish context, and it becomes known as an occult or esoteric idiom, rather than as a strictly religious one (as in Lubavitcher spirituality). In passing, I'll only mention Cabala, which is a Christianizing adaptation of Kabbalah.
True, the stuff I was saying about using it as an aid in scriptural study is more the literal Kabbalistic side than the esoteric Qabalah.
That was just an example of how I put it into practice that I've found most useful. Using principals of gematria (along with a copy of Strong's) in regular Bible study has greatly helped me decode the message contained in the Old Testament in their original context. Which of course leads to principles to contemplate in meditation.
The Qabalah on the other hand isn't as religious in context and works as sort of a schematic of the mechanics of the cosmos and represents the forces at play in the universe and how they relate to one another. Through it's study one can come to know these forces one by one, gradually working up to the ultimate, the experience of the fullness of all of creation. The source, pure transcendental being.
By doing so one gains knowledge of said mechanics and learns how to manipulate them, bringing about changes in consciousness and the physical world (by understanding the play of forces behind it).
It's a useful tool for those in pursuit of spiritual growth by allowing them to put any object or experience one may encounter in life on earth into their context in "the big picture", seeing the forces they relate to and how they fit into the scheme of things on every level.
The study of the Qabalistic mysticism to me has been very beneficial to my spiritual practice in ways that I can't even state. One has to experience it for themselves to truly grasp the concept fully. The book for which the link was given, by Dion Fortune, is probably the best text to begin at. I still haven't gotten down to checking out the book Markos mentioned but I damn sure will, I remember seeing that book EVERYWHERE back before the Kabbalah explosion and could never track it down.
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Unlike Markos, you're not 56 years old either.
Nor do I claim to be. I knew I was opening a can of worms getting into such a topic and trying to explain something so vast in such broad terms. Whatta' ya' think Tau Markos, does my re-wording redeem me at all, just a little?
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Don't tase me, bro!
Edited by RiverRat427 (03/12/10 11:15 PM)
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RiverRat427
Something funny happened...
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Quote:
curenado said:
Quote:
Computerism said:
Quote:
Mr. Cypher said:
Occult means hidden for a reason, yo.
The era of hiding is long over.
No it's not
IMO the era of looking harder is at hand
Quote:
Only the structures can really be explained - the rest is up to each and if they are lucky enough to have a good explainer (sharer/teacher) for tips along the way. But not on a forum like this and definitely not Madonna...
Word
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Don't tase me, bro!
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curenado
73rd Man
Registered: 04/01/03
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You do pretty good anyway RiverRat...and don't worry about the age card, it gets played too much anyway ...either Markos is spot-on, close enough we get it or not, just like anybody else.
Age doesn't have that much to do with the important stuff really - except of course the old one about being forty before discussing merkabah with anyone. I have no argument for that...
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Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."
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RiverRat427
Something funny happened...
Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 1,076
Loc: ..on the road to Damascus
Last seen: 2 months, 29 days
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Nor do I. Thanks for the kind words, man!
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Don't tase me, bro!
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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welcome to the internet
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Computerism
Propagandist
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Quote:
curenado said:
Quote:
Computerism said:
Quote:
Mr. Cypher said:
Occult means hidden for a reason, yo.
The era of hiding is long over.
No it's not
Maybe not for you, but it can end with me.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
Edited by Computerism (03/13/10 05:33 AM)
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curenado
73rd Man
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Computerism said: "Maybe not for you, but it can end with me."
?
I don't even know what that's supposed to mean but said enough here anyways - cheers!
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Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."
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Computerism
Propagandist
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I believe in casting pearls before swine.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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Silversoul
Holon
Registered: 01/01/05
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Quote:
Computerism said:
I believe in casting pearls before swine.
No one's giving you any pearls if you're not going to put some effort into finding them.
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Computerism
Propagandist
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
Computerism said:
I believe in casting pearls before swine.
No one's giving you any pearls if you're not going to put some effort into finding them.
Implying you have any pearls.
All you have are secrets.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
Computerism said:
I believe in casting pearls before swine.
No one's giving you any pearls if you're not going to put some effort into finding them.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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MarkostheGnostic
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You never required "redeeming" in the first place. 
I don't like to see a worldling like Madonna talk about Kabbalah or any other spiritual path. She is the "material girl," and I'm afraid that one really cannot be so invested in this world and have any spiritual depth simultaneously. Our buddy Jesus said as much. Clearly, Madonna has a hugely inflated ego, as anyone with wealth, fame, throngs of adoring fans, could not help to be utterly effected by this and believe in her own 'greatness.' Then, that egoic identity of worldly greatness seeks to devour/incorporate spiritual development. How can so large an investment in personality at the level of Yesod-Hod-Netzach actually be transcended, and still parade around on stages in fetish wear? Impossible! So all a popularizer can do (and I've had a student in North Miami Beach, where there is a Kabbalah Center, meet Madonna there) is popularize. Madonna is a 'pop idol' and has all that the material world can offer, but I rather see such a person like the demon that Jack Nicholson played in the film 'The Witches of Eastwick.'
Dion Fortunes book was illuminating, but Parfitt's book is a little 'gem.' You can buy it on-line at Barnes & Noble for $4.98. It blows my mind how he paralleled the 7 chakra system with the sephira. And Da'ath, like the Enlightened Throat Center following an Experience at the Crown/Sahasrara, is the place of Knowledge-Holding Deities in Vajrayana - Knowledge/Gyan/Gnosis. It all fits completely!
As to my age: It wasn't a badge of honor, just a fact, that if one remains fascinated by esoteric knowledge from age 18 to one's 50s, one is bound to have stored a lot of data. Just how transforming that data has been for me, or those who have wanted to relate to me, is another question. Knowing a bunch of stuff cognitively isn't transforming, but seeing one's life experiences superimposed on the Tree of Life is the beginning of a transformation. I remember living between Malkuth and Hod as a young materialistic science buff. By my first semester in college, my unconscious was pushing for some kind of spirituality. I read the new Satanic Bible, for crying out loud, and actually began to get into it with ritual items (yet never a practice)! This led to ceremonial magick and Wicca, as Yesod began to open up. I would place LaVey's book under my pillow and have corresponding dreams of cloaked figures walking on high parapets - black and white dreams! This was also the time of my sexual awakening - more Yesod - but feeling, Netzach, didn't open until I met a very influential girl. I didn't rise to Tiphereth until perhaps a year or so later, on acid, when someone handed me a BE HERE NOW on a difficult trip, and that opening page defined the breakthrough I was experiencing. Magick gave way to mysticism. Etc., etc., for the next 37 years.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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mysticism was boring
magick is power
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Oooooooh. "Hocus Pocus." 
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 8,557
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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Computerism
Propagandist
Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 1,015
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said:
mysticism was boring
magick is power
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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don't you roll your eyes at me sonny
or I'll have to cast the evil eye in your direction
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Computerism
Propagandist
Registered: 02/27/10
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said:
don't you roll your eyes at me sonny
or I'll have to cast the evil eye in your direction
Please, be my guest. At least it will be some form of proof. 
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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proof is found over that way ---->
in the mystical land of Philosophy, Sociology and Psychology
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Computerism
Propagandist
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Can't you at least send a succubus?
I think a demonic ménage á trois would really spice up my marriage. 
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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I hear ceasing to masturbate before sleeping works wonders for summoning succubi. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Computerism
Propagandist
Registered: 02/27/10
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said:
ceasing to masturbate
impossible.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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curenado
73rd Man
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I should've been more on the "timeless" and less on the age regarding my point. I think one could find it easier to see or apply in this time if they can arrive at the timelessness of it...
In so far as  and  It seems one would arrive at a point where there was really a very fine line between the two if much of one at all - it seems they would both just be expressions or applications of the same thing differently.
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Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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Quote:
curenado said:
In so far as and It seems one would arrive at a point where there was really a very fine line between the two if much of one at all - it seems they would both just be expressions or applications of the same thing differently.
yes
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said:
Quote:
curenado said:
In so far as and It seems one would arrive at a point where there was really a very fine line between the two if much of one at all - it seems they would both just be expressions or applications of the same thing differently.
yes
Magick operates below the Veil of Paroketh, (which is equivalent to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd chakra spheres) in the Astral Triangle of Yesod-Hod-Netzach, which govern the individual personality. Once one has risen to the Ethical Triangle of Geburah-Tiphereth-Chesed, one's 'born-again' identity is that of The Witness - the first truly transcendental identity, and the beginning of an ascent to more and more subtle identity. This is why Crowley's drama in the desert and claim to have crossed The Abyss into the Supernal Triangle - the Godhead - by ceremonial magickal means, perhaps involving sodomy with his cohort Victor Neuberg, is absurd.
Magick and mysticism are two directions - getting and giving, respectively. In mysticism, one serves the Higher, in magick one tries to coerce the lower (thaumaturgy) or the Higher (theurgy). The latter is transcendental magick, and it is essentially receptive to the Higher as is religion. In transcendental magick, I would agree that there is a fine line between magick and mysticism, perhaps with a certain knowledge element in which Names or symbolic implements are used both to enhance the magician's 'active imagination,' and also to exert the power of a being a fetish object (not to be confused with a sexual fetish, although sexually, objects seem to embody 'powers' like a spiked shoe does for a shoe fetishist).
As the 23rd Psalm reads: "...for Thine is the power, and the kingdom, and the glory, forever..." which recognizes the Absolute Cause (to use an Aristotelian expression for God), and that humans who attempt tp assume the role of author of these attributes are misguided, presumptuous, and doomed spiritually, especially if magick 'gets' all manner of worldly acquisitions. This was the basis of Christopher Marlowe's ' Dr. Faustus,' which Goethe rewrote as his 'Faust.' In the first version, (played by Richard Burton in the play), Dr. Faustus, after 24 years of being served by the devil Mephistopheles, is ragged kicking and screaming into Hell. Goethe's Faust repents at the last, to be saved from Hell and cheats the devil. These stories, like biblical ones, are intended to teach, among other things, spiritual values. Being rooted in materiality, one so totally identifies with the flesh and its pleasures, (including power over others), that one's 'soul' fails to identify with 'spirit' (this goes back to ancient Egypt), and spiritual death occurs along with physical death. Of course, the world is populated by a majority of spiritually dead humans, and leave it to a film maker like George A. Romero to illustrate this fact with the goriest of ghoulish fiction.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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RiverRat427
Something funny happened...
Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 1,076
Loc: ..on the road to Damascus
Last seen: 2 months, 29 days
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I myself took an interest in spirituality at a rather young age, starting around eleven, being an ill-supervised little hood who found more interest floating around the aisles of spiritual suppliers during the day then sitting in a class room parroting off catechisms (yup, I went to Catholic school). I wasn't really into Qabalah at that point though, at the time reading it more like stereo instructions than a mystical system. I was more acquainted with Catholic magico-religious practices through my father's Southern Italian heritage so I got into learning everything I could about natural and elemental magic, wanting to know everything that could be done with water, candles, herbs, and the like to understand the mechanics of it all.
I didn't come to seriously study it until around 15-16 after the shop I frequented had been closed down and all I came into contact with afterward were New Age la-de-das (mostly Wiccans who worshiped Silver RavenWolf) who, like Madonna, seemed to (IMO) be stuck in Qeshet, blinded by the astral luster and not being able to comprehend anything beyond it, therefore accepting it as the be-all-and-end-all. Running around with their pentacles and athames claiming to know the secrets of the universe, preaching love and acceptance while whining about the ignorance of Christians and "never again the burning times"TM. To me they seemed more interested in making everyone know they had a chip on their shoulder and wanting to be different and "special", not having enough faith in themselves to cause change through simple prayer and will, needing all the bells and whistles of witchcraft and ritual to convince them they had spiritual power to make chenge happen in their lives. I also believe it to be partially based on the people's feeling powerless in the physical world so they used the 'image' of being a witch to get people to not trouble them and deluding themselves into thinking it meant they had some kind of power over others or aura of mystique that other, 'less enlightened' folks couldn't handle; not realizing that what they had was the power of acting like a weirdo which most people tend to steer clear of.
It was at around 15 I got into psychedelics and at that time I was interested in more the Robert Cochrane type of witchcraft, using altered states to 'ride the hedge' toward achieving gnosis, and once I got into Qabalah it was like a natural transition back towards my roots in Christ (which of course led to a more Gnostic interpretation of scripture).
It allowed me to see the oneness of mystical/magical practice beyond the contexts of culture and creed and all the different traditions I had previously learned about came together to form one beautiful synchronistic tradition.
I lapsed for a couple of years in terms of study, being held up trying to get my home life straightened out and spreading the knowledge I had gained therein, so my family wouldn't be in as much emotional/spiritual turmoil. It worked out for the most part and now I'm back to me and my studies, re-learning everything intellectually to go farther spiritually in my pursuit of gnosis. That's where I'm at today.
The big thing with Qabalah, in terms of it's mystical/esoteric side is that it has to be experienced for ones self and goes beyond words or intellect, and therefor can't really be summed up in words to explain it to another. I should have known better than trying to write anything to convey the lessons learned through the study of the mystical Qabalah. One of the names for it is the unwritten Qabalah and it didn't earn that name without reason, it's because it goes beyond words and, like Tantra, is a method one has to put into practice (or at least contemplate) themselves in order to gain understanding of it or to have it bear any fruit for them.
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Don't tase me, bro!
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Goethe's Faust repents at the last, to be saved from Hell and cheats the devil.
is it possible to trick the greatest trickster of them all?
--constantine
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Thanks for the well written letter! I can either relate to or agree with most everything you wrote. I got that whole witchy mystique when I was still 18, the 'occult revolution' was on, and Ray Buckland would proselytize at my college, taking a gorgeous young blonde witch in black with him (we all imagined her being Skyclad) from the Brentwood, L.I., NY coven. Perhaps if I hadn't been so shy, and a virgin, I might have looked into it. But, there was still something sinister about it all, in a cult-like way, grown man using 18 year olds for luring horny college boys  This is probably why I went to ceremonial magick right after reading Ferrar's What Witches Do, because I've always been more cerebral than visceral, despite my best attempts at being more earthbound. Trying to do that reminds me of one of my first scuba dives when my dive buddy forgot his weight belt, and he he even tried grabbing rocks from the seabed to weigh him down, but he kept buoying back up again! And the Lord provides! On Halloween 1972, when my roommate and I were preparing a midnight ritual to evoke the demon of lust, Asmodeus, beautiful strawberry blonde, freckle-faced and built, Linda R., whom I desired but could not approach, knocked on MY door! She wanted to learn to drive a 'stick shift,' and she knew I had a Fiat 850 Spyder! I actually told her to leave!  It was like God was saying 'Here is an object of your lust, delivered to your door. You needn't ask demons.' But, of course, all this synchronicity didn't occur to me until much much later when all I could do was marvel and laugh at the irony.  
The psychological thing for me is that I often want to 'do' something, and mysticism is mostly receptive. Mapping my life upon the Tree of Life wasn't sufficient for this need to 'do' something, which is why people sometimes say that mysticism is 'boring.' It certainly is anything but boring when one is caught up in an ecstatic state, but the ritual accoutrements that you mentioned also exert a fascination on part of my psyche - perhaps even a vestigial part of my Yesodic personality. I asked my Lady what SHE preferred for me to do: start rituals in magick circles, or take up laboratory alchemy. She selected the latter, and as half of our alchemical Rebis, I honored her choice. It too resonates with me because of a long history with Jungian based alchemy as well as a childhood spent experimenting in a home lab. This brings together Qabalah, as part of the synchronistic correspondences in alchemy and Spagyrics (planetary hours, metals, plants). But, this too shall pass. I usually feel like there is nothing that is necessary for me to 'do,' while there are temptations that I need not to do.
A life with grace, with synchronicities abounding, is for me the 'life abundant,' This is contrary to those people who call themselves Christians and who believe that God wants them to be rich! So much about the tag 'Christian' disgusts me at this point. After my long struggle to be liberated from the quagmire of Reformed Jewish culture and ethnicity, I am extremely reluctant to tell others that I am a Christian, although saying that I am a Jew is far from accurate. I think that I must be a Jewish 'soul' with a Christian 'Spirit' held together in some kind of Gnostic-Qabalistic-Alchemical metaphor of transformation. I guess I'm still just an Esotericist at heart. Occultist sounds too much like the people you were describing, and I am just too old, and living in the wrong state, at the wrong time to adopt some hocus-pocus persona.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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synchronicities are usually hidden to the most oblivious of mystical seekers 
that's why they call it the occult 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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RiverRat427
Something funny happened...
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Yeah, I hear you, Markos. Most of my generation (post-occult revolution) seems to have come to mysticism and magic not as part of a quest for self-realization, but trough seeing the 'occult commercialization' with shows like Charmed and movies like The Craft and what have you, seeing these bad ass bitches kicking ass and haphazardly throwing about occult terminology which gives the impression of arcane knowledge, and saying "Wow they're cool, I wanna be like THAT" so they go to Barnes and Noble and buy whatever they can that can as long as they find it aesthetically pleasing, and on with the delusion!
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MarkostheGnostic said:
It certainly is anything but boring when one is caught up in an ecstatic state, but the ritual accoutrements that you mentioned also exert a fascination on part of my psyche - perhaps even a vestigial part of my Yesodic personality.
The difference in my mind when it comes that is that you understand that the different tools and and drama of ritual work as psychological triggers, as opposed to the modern fast-and-loose "Barnes and Noble" occult tradition which makes it sound like one gains their allotment of witch power or whatever after they "collect the whole set" so to speak.
I myself am not that big on ritual, only when it comes to certain things, and when I do it's much more about achieving a trance state.
I tend to have more of a Tantric approach to life, preferring to go along for the ride and letting life 'do' me in a sense, with each experience bringing me closer towards my ultimate fulfillment and realization. I see Shiva as a sort of proto-Christos and the first to be the bring the Word of God (in mythology/poetry) to humanity and Kali as a sort of "Sophia the Destroyer" representing her fall from the Fullness and redemption thereto as one complete, necessary cycle and helping us in realizing this and getting back to where we belong.
You can also see parallels between Christ and Shiva in the (venomous) serpent handling, strychnine (deadly stimulant/intoxicant poison) drinking Pentecostal Christian sects.
When it comes to labels I'm with you even more. With the connotations that terms like 'Occultist', 'Gnostic', 'Christian', 'Witch', have and the different feelings they evoke from different people I pretty much throw out whatever term which, depending on the circumstances and people I'm talking to, will lead to the least amount of confrontation. I don't see it as a big deal because when it all comes down to it in the mystical sense, we all just ARE, all titles and labels just being creations of the mind.
And when it comes to Ray Ray Buckland, sure, he may have been the first Wiccan to publicly "come out of the broom closet" (again, a term which in my mind emphasizes the differentness and specialness those who embrace modern Wicca want to feel) in the US and he gets a lot of clout for that, just take a gander at his occult masterpiece "The Magick of Chant-o-Matics". 'Nuff said.
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Don't tase me, bro!
Edited by RiverRat427 (04/28/10 12:34 PM)
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Computerism
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Enjoying my lurk. 
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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MarkostheGnostic
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I once did a spontaneous candle burning ritual of my own design, combined with autoerotic stimulation, and I swear the object of my 'pink candle desire' (didn't have red on hand) made herself available to me! I was influenced by Buckland's Practical Candle Burning, and the girl was this gorgeous Amazon who used to date the shot-putter at college. She was coming by, I can only surmise, to throw me a goodbye something-or-other, but I was so shocked by her only visit (for a bogus reason) to my room, that I failed to take advantage of this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Kicked myself in the ass for a long time after that. All she knew was my looks of adoration, and of course, these 'coincidences' will always remain unproven in magick, but...the whole thing remains in my mind as a meaningful connection. 
But I used to experiment with cannabis as a kid in private, not for the persona of being cool. I didn't want others to know. This kind of experimentation became even more secretive whenI began to experiment with witchcraft, and then ceremonial magick. As an introvert, I never had many friends to begin with, and two of them were extreme rationalists (one became a genetic engineer, the other a geologist, another an electrical engineer). The non-academic friends were too 'ordinary,' but everyone was completely dismissive of my occult interests beginning at age 18. As for female friends, forgetaboutit. Now, after the major portion of my life has been lived, I seem to be acting like I was 18 again.   
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The Chronic
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
I was so shocked by her only visit (for a bogus reason) to my room, that I failed to take advantage of this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Kicked myself in the ass for a long time after that.
These sort of times we perform to the best of our abilities, there was no other way it could have been more special, even the 'kicking yourself afterwards' is meant to be like that
I seem to remember you recently mentioning a girlfriend?
I thought you'd found your mystical other half man 
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Computerism
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I believe I had a similar experience my senior year in college after following a "ritual" of Thee Temple Ov Psychick Youth. Basically all you had to do was write your sexual fantasy on a piece of paper, put a few drops of your spit on the paper, a few drops of your blood... then masturbate and at the moment of orgasm focus intently on what you want and ejaculate semen on the paper as well.
Then you let the paper dry overnight and forget about what you want. Put the paper someplace it will be out of then way. I put mine in the top of the closet, but some people would mail them into the "Temple."
I seem to remember a few weeks later my hot neighbor made herself available to me and, like you, I didn't have the courage to strike. It was for the best, though. When I got to know her better, I would have been really upset by having a sexual relationship with her. She would have just broke my heart.
edit: Oh yes, it also had to be on the 23rd of the month, beginning at 2300 hours.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
Edited by Computerism (03/15/10 03:47 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Hmmm. Perhaps I was referring to the college girlfriend, whom I had broken up with, who looked me up a year ago Christmas Eve, after someone told her that I had written about her on this site. Someone was doing a search of the literature on her (she was in the National Enquirer in 2002 for operating a large 'prostitution ring,' or, as she would have it, an escort service), and I used her full name (now deleted with an apology to her). I fell in love with this girl some 34 years ago - first time is always the most intense - and she continued to haunt my dreams for over 3 decades. Then we had a sort of phone/e-mail reunion, and I had another opportunity of a lifetime to make peace with her, to try to transmute my residual feelings into a kind of 'courtly love.' She really won't have it, but keeps inviting me to visit her, which I can't do. However, her parents still live in my state, though elderly, and she may have to come here eventually  They have never reconciled with their prostitute daughter however. You are right, I have a Lady of some 13 years, and she is none too happy about this haunting from my past.  All I can say is that I will never accept that loving someone  is wrong. Now, sleeping with the former girlfriend  would be wrong  , given the relationship with my Soror Mystica.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (03/15/10 04:17 PM)
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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Loving someone is never wrong. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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MarkostheGnostic
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As silly as these things seem to read about, at the moment, it also seemed as though one had entered a 'liminal space,' a "crack between the worlds," in which mind could influence another mind.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Oh yeah, YOU tell that to my Lady!
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
I fell in love with this girl some 34 years ago - first time is always the most intense - and she continued to haunt my dreams for over 3 decades.
lol yeah, the first girl i ever loved still pops up in my dreams! Hopefully not for 3 decades though...
I think you were reffering to your girl of 13 years before, and i just presumed it was a recent thang... just when you said 'everyone was completely dismissive of my occult interests beginning at age 18. As for female friends, forgetaboutit.' i thought you meant you'd never met any mystically inclined female, maybe you were talking about back then when you were 18?
I can't imagine you being with someone for 13 years and them not being at least a little mystically inclined
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MarkostheGnostic
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Well, as it turns out, at the time of this writing, I had been with my ex wife for 13 years, and, I have just reached the 14 year mark with my present Lady. The ex did not have a mystical bent, she was mentally ill (which I just responded to in Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology in the post on Borderlines). I married appearance and what I believed to be 'potential' interest in my interests. I HATE it when I'm stupid! 
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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RiverRat427
Something funny happened...
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Loc: ..on the road to Damascus
Last seen: 2 months, 29 days
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IMO Buckland's writings on already established systems like Wicca, candle magic, and the like are sound but some of his writings which he obviously took creative license on like "Chant-o-Matics" or "Gypsy Witchcraft and Magic" have very little basis in any occult or magical theory/doctrine that I know of other than faith in the thought form of 'making magic'.
Those 'liminal spaces' you talk about played a big part in the kinds of "traditional" witchcraft I was into when I was younger was all about, accessing them at certain times or certain places like crossroads, in cemeteries, where land meets water, other naturally occurring markers etc; and sort of 'slipping in' them to access the group mind (I guess you could call it that) to find things out so you can get things done.
And @ what Computerism said the people I was around who sort of 'brought me up' I guess, in the spiritual community instilled in me that I'd have to be absolutely bananas to let anyone else have a chance to get their hands on a paper prepared the way you said. I couldn't believe some people would mail them off, I'm glad you didn't.
The Tantric practices I've learned and adopted were a big aid in overcoming my thoughts and nerves when opportunities like you guys mentioned (and also less so opportune BS) and just roll with whatever cards I get dealt with my head fully in the moment.
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Don't tase me, bro!
Edited by RiverRat427 (04/28/10 12:32 PM)
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Computerism
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Quote:
RiverRat427 said:
And @ what Computerism said the people I was around who sort of 'brought me up' I guess, in the spiritual community instilled in me that I'd have to be absolutely bananas to let anyone else have a chance to get their hands on a paper prepared the way you said. I couldn't believe some people would mail them off, I'm glad you didn't.
In rereading their manifesto, I see they also ask for hair from your head and pubic hair to be included. (See "THEE SIGIL OV 3 LIQUIDS.") That's about everything the typical Barnes & Noble Grimoire Witch would need to make you her love slave.
According to Wiki, "If an individual chose to do so, they were invited to mail their sigils to a central location where the magical energy in them could be used to enhance each other."
The group was founded by members of Psychic TV, Current 93 and Coil.
edit: Somewhere in Portland, there is a pile of jizzed on, bled on, spat on, sexual fantasies with hair stuck to them.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
Edited by Computerism (03/15/10 11:12 PM)
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 51,934
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You've got to be shitting me. No joke.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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RiverRat427
Something funny happened...
Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 1,076
Loc: ..on the road to Damascus
Last seen: 2 months, 29 days
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I've heard of that group before before but I'm not totally familiar with their cosmology or anything in detail. I could see the mechanics behind gathering the personal effects of all the members of a group together to 'enhance' one another but I'd still be wary of the motives behind said group, call me a pessimist.
All pop-culture occultism aside my intro to spiritual practice was an old school conjure shop (less on the love and light than most modern New Age shops) that one can find in pretty much any inner city, I'm sure they must abound where Markos is in South FL; and in such a setting hearing stories of people throwing curses left and right and the occasional discovery of a dead chicken on someone's doorstep is hardly a rare occurrence so over the years I'm made a habit of certain things like picking my hairbrushes clean after use and the like. You can never be too careful.
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Don't tase me, bro!
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Computerism
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Quote:
RiverRat427 said:
...so over the years I'm made a habit of certain things like picking my hairbrushes clean after use and the like. You can never be too careful.
Voodoo neighbors want a piece of you... literally.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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RiverRat427
Something funny happened...
Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 1,076
Loc: ..on the road to Damascus
Last seen: 2 months, 29 days
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You never know man, I remember hearing horror stories about people digging through people's trash or doing things like going to a ill-liked neighbor's to 'borrow sugar' or whatever and as soon as they get in they all of a sudden they have to use their bathroom REAL BAD. When you're like 12 years old and hearing things like that it sort of gets ingrained in you after a while to pick up after yourself. Especially someone like me who IRL generally pisses a lot of people off. Just because you aren't paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you and I'd rather be safe than sorry.
I'm sure now I sound like a loon but I don't care, I'm just being honest.
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Don't tase me, bro!
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Computerism
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I wouldn't say you're a loon. It's natural to be afraid. I know I've had similar fears in the past and still do from time to time. However, I don't think you have any real reason to fear these people. Imagine yourself confronting them with the full knowledge of your own omnipotence and see how that feels.
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Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high.
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RiverRat427
Something funny happened...
Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 1,076
Loc: ..on the road to Damascus
Last seen: 2 months, 29 days
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Yeah I get that completely, I'm not fearful anymore at this point in my life. Now it's less about getting rid of any links to myself then it is just a habit, like a reflex. I don't bother trying to break it because I'm just so used to it it's just cleaner in my mind, like if I see people who have brushes so caked in dead hair that you can't see the 'body' of the brush through it or spying the occasional stray nail clipping on someone's bathroom floor, I can't help but get a little grossed out.
Yeah, I guess I'm just a little tapped anyway.
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Don't tase me, bro!
Edited by RiverRat427 (04/28/10 12:27 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
RiverRat427 said:
I've heard of that group before before but I'm not totally familiar with their cosmology or anything in detail. I could see the mechanics behind gathering the personal effects of all the members of a group together to 'enhance' one another but I'd still be wary of the motives behind said group, call me a pessimist.
All pop-culture occultism aside my intro to spiritual practice was an old school conjure shop (less on the love and light than most modern New Age shops) that one can find in pretty much any inner city, I'm sure they must abound where Markos is in South FL; and in such a setting hearing stories of people throwing curses left and right and the occasional discovery of a dead chicken on someone's doorstep is hardly a rare occurrence so over the years I'm made a habit of certain things like picking my hairbrushes clean after use and the like. You can never be too careful.
Quote:
RiverRat427 said:
I've heard of that group before before but I'm not totally familiar with their cosmology or anything in detail. I could see the mechanics behind gathering the personal effects of all the members of a group together to 'enhance' one another but I'd still be wary of the motives behind said group, call me a pessimist.
All pop-culture occultism aside my intro to spiritual practice was an old school conjure shop (less on the love and light than most modern New Age shops) that one can find in pretty much any inner city, I'm sure they must abound where Markos is in South FL; and in such a setting hearing stories of people throwing curses left and right and the occasional discovery of a dead chicken on someone's doorstep is hardly a rare occurrence so over the years I'm made a habit of certain things like picking my hairbrushes clean after use and the like. You can never be too careful.
I have more Voudun stories than I care to even relate. My first exposure was right after I moved to North miami out of grad school. I was poor and unemployed, and I didn't have a physician. Cleaning up the yard of the house my ex-wife bought, I got stung by a hornet. My arm swelled up like a hot sausage, so I went to the local small pharmacy run by a compassionate Haitian pharmacist. She gave me some Benedryl capsules when they were still prescription drugs back in 1983, and some Benedryl ointment, both of which brought the pain and inflammation down. The next time I visited that pharmacy, there was red candle wax with some chicken feathers still stuck to the molten mess on the threshold of the door. I asked her about it, and I don't remember what she said about certain disgruntled people in the neighborhood, but only days later, she and her pharmacy were gone! Cleared out!
When the Haitian husband of a White female Christian missionary (a friend of my ex-wife) got AIDS back in the 80s, he left his position as a Catholic eucharistic minister when  was knocking at his door, and hired a Houngan (medicine man) from Haiti. My ex and I carried this poor man up a flight of stairs 'cause he was about 85 pounds and too weak. The Houngan gave him emetics to 'cleanse the snakes and toads' from his belly. Poor Jocelin shit and puked himself to death in the next 24 hours while the Houngan fled back to Haiti.
Quote:
RiverRat427 said:
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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RiverRat427
Something funny happened...
Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 1,076
Loc: ..on the road to Damascus
Last seen: 2 months, 29 days
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Yeah, I've heard about the 'Live Things' in people before. Snakes and frogs in stomachs, tadpoles in the bloodstream, spiders on the brain, etc.
The story you mentioned about the Houngan was one of the reasons I wasn't satisfied to have somebody else do my work for me and wanted to learn the way of it all for myself. For every worker/shop owner who'll burn candles on their altar for you there are a couple dozen who'll take it in back room only to put it back out on the shelves for sale again after closing time, and that's just with $4 candles. One could imagine all of the other profitable short-cuts that may be taken.
Edited by RiverRat427 (04/28/10 12:24 PM)
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