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TheGuy said:
BBB has never said "Want to get high? Here is how."

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FrenchMachine said:
I think they should just drop it and let it go. Be thankful that the charges were dropped.

If they sue and do what this person above me mentioned, take it to the supreme court, it's going to bring about even more unwanted attention to these entheogens/ethnobotanicals that are thankfully still legal to buy!

Just let it go. Yeah, it was a messed up thing for them to do, but it happened and nothing can change that now.

Not to mention, they are just going to have to spend more money in legal fees with the possibility of not getting any of that money back that they are suing for.

Bad idea, IMO.

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CosmicLion said:

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TheGuy said:
BBB has never said "Want to get high? Here is how."

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You lie, sir.

Your business sends emails + talks to customers on the phone about ingesting cacti.

Your business ran Dancing Bear Forums, linked to + directly tied to BBB, where you specifically told dose & preparation advice about "how to get high" off of your products.

Get over yourself guy, you aren't some disastrous victim here. Everything that is happening to you and your son is a result of your own inability to operate a business within the realms of legality in conjunction with your failure to act in an intelligent manner regarding your customer and product base.

No pity for the dumb and greedy who setup their own demise...

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There is no reason not to have pity though, your an asshole. You have never gone through it either.

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LongStrangeTrip said:
There is no reason not to have pity though, your an asshole. You have never gone through it either.

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Your right dude, that was a misplaced sentiment.

I have expressed how I feel for about about Jon. I donated to his fund and I don't think he in any way deserves to be behind bars or have his $700,000 taken. I'm not saying he's not a smart person who I personally have admired for establishing ethnobotanicals the way he did. I think its ridiculous how they've treated him & his family and what they are putting his kids through.

I just don't like how his dad comes in here with this pretentious liberty mantra admitting that the Dancing Bear forums may have been what caused the incident only to defend it intensely. Then someone comes in and says "Hey Guy, I got extraction advice from the store" and he goes off on them instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt that maybe an employee or something at the store was slipping info here and there.

Then, in the end, he has the AUDACITY to say:

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To all you people that say "He had it coming..." -- I'll tell you one thing that helped get this started: It was people posting on forums like this saying "I bought X from BBB and I didn't even get off!" Or... "I bought X from BBB and had a really cool trip!"

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TheGuy said:
Even the Dancing Bear forums. Go read up. You will NOT find one post by anyone at BBB instructing anyone on how to get high on any products.

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Then someone comes in and says "Hey Guy, I got extraction advice from the store" and he goes off on them instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt that maybe an employee or something at the store was slipping info here and there.

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TheGuy said:

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If memory serves me right, someone already posted an email from BBB, after the raid, and they were referred to Erowid.com

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That is the point. Neither BBB nor Jon tells people how to extract anything from any plants. If you want to find out -- go somewhere else -- we aren't going to tell you.

Erowid.com is a great site BTW. It isn't a "How do you get high" site. It discusses in details the laws, the grey areas, the good, the bad, the everything.  If you want to find out the truth about drug laws, chemicals, plants etc... then visit erowid.com

BBB has never said "Want to get high? Here is how."

The bottom line is what you are referring to is an automated reply to emails. That email answers 20 common questions. And one answer is: "If you want to find out more information about some of these plants, visit erowid.com "  We could have added: "If you would like more information on shrooms, visit shroomery.org."
Point is simple if one thinks about it.

Your question about responsibility is moot. Of course we accept all kinds of responsibility. We've made lots of mistakes.
Telling people how to extract mescaline from a cacti is not one of them. And you should stop spreading misinformation.

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makaveli8x8 said:

Do you not see where im coming from here?  why why why why why why why?

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Giveadont said:

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makaveli8x8 said:

Do you not see where im coming from here?  why why why why why why why?

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I'm sure he does, but you're making them out to seem more malicious than they actually were when you don't make note of the differences between they, themselves, telling people how to do something and them directing people to a website in which said things can be found out.

Sure, they might've been able to predict that some kind of backlash would happen. But, at the same time, you can't blame them for not being super-cynical towards all the people who probably asked them about their products. I think sending them to erowid for information was the best solution. Better than ignoring your customers and then, in turn, you have these people doing very stupid, ill-advised things. I mean, I can't count the number of times simply coming to a place like this has given me information I wouldn't have, otherwise, even considered.

Plus, let's be honest here, people are going to do try and "get high" off just about anything they can find; hence why once natural psychedelics like mushrooms, cacti, LSA and such were banned (or getting cracked down on harder than before), designer psychedelics like MDMA and Crystal Meth - which are even worse than their natural psychedelic counterparts - sprouted up seemingly out of nowhere (and I barely even have to point out how ironic this fact is considering the "drug war" attitude).

The main reason a place like BBB gets busted isn't because they were "being open about it". It's because once agencies like the FBI, DEA, FDA and whathaveyou decide, basically, who they're going after... you can't do much to stop them from bending the law to allow them to do, pretty much, whatever they want. I mean, on sites like this people discuss Home Depot just as often, but you'll never see that place getting raided like this one... and beyond the fact that Home Depot sells other things, we all know why that - even if they didn't - they probably wouldn't be treated like BBB was.

Also, you can try all you want to keep things hush, hush... all it takes is one idiot, and you can't do much to stop them from being stupid because, well, by definition they probably have very little self-discretion.
But, you know what, better to send them to erowid where they might actually get useful information that will help them to NOT kill or seriously hurt themselves (which draws infinitely more negative attention than forums and websites just mentioning this shit), rather than to say, "We don't discuss those things, AT ALL. Figure it out for yourself. Good luck."

No sense in simply arguing "how could you have not seen this coming?"
Of course they didn't see it coming, because most people don't actually believe how retarded and gestapo-like these Government agencies have become simply because they insist on continuing to uphold a failed drug prohibition policy (especially when these might not even be the agencies themselves but, rather, rogue portions of said agencies). I've written a number of essays for school, done a whole shitton of research and probably listened to guys ranging from Jello Biafra to Alan Watts discuss said matters more times than I care to count and I STILL hardly believe how close-minded and just flat out dumb these people in charge of things are. I mean, intellectually I get it, but as far as fully believing, feeling and understanding... well... let's just say that's probably one of the reasons I gravitate towards sites like this one, with threads like this one.

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laotzo said:
give it a break. the horse is dead, and beaten so thoroughly that it begins to resemble sausage.

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That's some good ole' Texas wisdom!

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Comradez said:
This seizure of products and funds sets a very bad precedent.  I don't really care about whether BBB in particular gets its money back, but I hope that they sue and get this precedent overturned. 

Think about it:  this sets the precedent that the government can seize your property on the vaguest suspicion that they can conjure up, and then not give you your stuff back. 

Let's say you are protesting the Iraq War.  The government doesn't like you doing that, even though you are within your rights to do that, so the government busts into your house and seizes your computer because they claim that you might be using it to "plot illegal terrorist activities against the government."  Then the next day they drop the charges.  The net result is that the government just stole a couple thousand dollars from you.  It's that simple.  They can then go on doing this repeatedly to as many people as they want. 

If that's not despotism, then I don't know what is.

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hahaha when it comes to drugs buddy, the precedent has been set long before this. They did not do this because of a vauge suspicion, I think it's more sinister than that. They know they can't shut BBB down, and they know the charges won't stick; so you roll in, knock some heads and make them start over from scratch. From their perspective, its worth the effort, I think.

Not what I like, but its the way it is~ You just havent noticed until NOW

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"Kansas somehow thinks it can tax someone for selling illegal drugs when they haven't even been charged with selling illegal drugs."

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Are they going to be charged for failure to show up to court, even though they went to court?