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 libertaire
liberator
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 Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Doc_T]
#11910758 - 01/27/10 09:22 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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I disagree. Naming things based on their geographical location which as a result has caused variations in their particular set of genetics would certainly seem like it has scientific merit to me.
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Doc_T
Random Dude
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: libertaire]
#11910764 - 01/27/10 09:24 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm done here.
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libertaire
liberator
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Doc_T]
#11910786 - 01/27/10 09:29 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sorry for arguing the point into the ground, I tend to do that sometimes....
But the issue of whether strain is the proper terminology or not has been brought up before, so I just thought it was something people were interested in trying to resolve.
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Fahkface
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: libertaire]
#11910931 - 01/27/10 09:57 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I said "macroscopic", not "microscopic".
Oops, indeed!
Quote:
It's true that isolates are not naturally occurring and are not limited to a certain geographical region, but let's say that it was possible to cultivate A. Muscaria var. formosa, and I cultivated it in a place far from it's naturally occurring environment. Just because I cultivated it in a different locale, is it now a different variety?
No! But this question doesn't really make much sense, when it's about this issue. At least I don't see it;)
Some varieties of the species Ps. cubensis have an increased tendency to develop certain characteristics.
As we see, when we cultivate them (and as we can see when they're growing wild), these are tendencies and nothing more. They can well look totally different from each other and still grow in the same spot.
Since I can't say if this is the same way with A. muscaria variations, i don't want to make a statement about it.
But what we know is, that with Psilocybe cubensis the fluctuation of phenotypic features is enormously, no matter where they come from and where they're cultivated.
Most people in here, who have dealt with these questions, don't really use the term "strain" with pleasure. When I do it, I do it to make myself clear.
In the end, I'd use the term phenotype for any Cube that has been cultivated and found. But that again would lead to confusion, because it couldn't really be separated weather I mean a phenotype of a certain "strain" or a phenotype of the species Psilocybe cubensis.
Quote:
I disagree. Naming things based on their geographical location which as a result has caused variations in their particular set of genetics would certainly seem like it has scientific merit to me.
Only to a very limited degree! And that's exactly where the "problem" is. Since their phenotypic features vary at such a high rate, I wouldn't want it to state it that way.
Especially strains that don't have a unique look, which appears that often, because it was isolated from the wild prints, can't be distinguished. Neither can their growing habits.
Edited by Fahkface (01/27/10 10:04 AM)
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Cervantes
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Doc_T]
#11911668 - 01/27/10 11:57 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Doc_T said:
Quote:
libertaire said:
I'm just trying to find with the next best thing that has legitimate acceptance in the scientific community.
I don't think that what we are using the term for has legitimate scientific merit.
So that's why I don't think you'll find a legitimate scientific word for it.
But keep trying if you like. 
The trick is coming up with words which work both scientifically, and with stoner hippies. 'Strains' are most important to n00bs. Nomenclature is the hobby of veterans.
I am VERY open to suggestions.
I settled on 'Race', 'Variety' and 'Brand' not because they were scientifically accurate... but rather because the words represent differences which novice cubensis mycologists seem to hold dear.
One reason scientific terminology is (almost) impossible to use when it comes to cubes is this: The commercialization of multispore 'Strains'.
Multispore 'Strains' are not common in the 'Legit' mycological community... and therefore the 'Legit' terminology is annoyingly complicated.
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
Edited by Cervantes (01/27/10 12:06 PM)
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 daytripper05
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Cervantes]
#11913196 - 01/27/10 04:15 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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That's how I feel. While there are probably more correct ways of referring to a 'strain', the word 'strain' isn't going to stopped being used anytime soon until the people selling the spores start called them something else.
Of topic but on the same principle, people should stop referring to mushrooms as She like weed which has a definitive sex. Just as mushroom Races are not strains, they are not females either.
I like nomenclature and technical jargon pertaining to any field. I believe in being semantically correct. But it's hard to talk to people who won't understand the language, so I think most of us find ourselves using incorrect language just to allow for better communication through people who otherwise don't know.
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Cyanesense
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Quote:
daytripper05 said:
using incorrect language just to allow for better communication through people who otherwise don't know
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Everything I say is totally false - and all my pictures were stolen from SWIM.
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anonjon
Partially Right
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Cervantes]
#11913830 - 01/27/10 05:55 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
I settled on 'Race', 'Variety' and 'Brand' not because they were scientifically accurate... but rather because the words represent differences which novice cubensis mycologists seem to hold dear.
I like variety. Race has too much human connotation. Brand isn't really analogous to strain, in the sense you're looking for.
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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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Cervantes
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: anonjon]
#11914033 - 01/27/10 06:22 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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None of those words are analogous to 'Strain'. Instead, the three words, 'Race', 'Variety' and 'Brand' refer to different characteristics of a 'Strain'.
'Race' refers to the geographical location where the original spore specimen was found. This distinction serves a few purposes. Mainly, the goal is to denote where the cube originated before domestication. For example, Penis Envy came from Amazonian Columbia, so it is racially Amazonian or Columbian. 'Race' is not the perfect word, but in this case, it serves a purpose. There are several small and large differences present in cubes which originate from different regions of the world.
But I digress...
Penis Envy is a DOMESTICATED 'VARIETY' of a cube which originated from Amazonian Columbia. 'Variety' denotes differences and unique characteristics which expose themselves AFTER isolation and domestication. To some degree, every commercial cube is a variety.
A Sporeworks 'Brand' Penis Envy may also be slightly different than a Hawks Eye 'Brand' Penis Envy... since they may not have originated from the exact same genetic pool (for more info about its origins, see the PE profile at the start of this thread).
There you go. 'Brand', 'Variety', 'Race'.
If you all have any more suggestions for terminology, to better explain the differences between commercial and non-commercial multisporous cubes, I would love to hear them.
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
Edited by Cervantes (01/27/10 06:50 PM)
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Cyanesense]
#11916743 - 01/28/10 08:29 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cyanesense said:
Quote:
daytripper05 said:
using incorrect language just to allow for better communication through people who otherwise don't know
Good point.
I don't think we'll ever have one set uniform set of terminology across the board, but in some circles we can have slightly proper terminology as long as we're mindful of it. We'll definitely never be completely scientific though, since I couldn't possibly see us adapting every single "variety" name to latin, as would be required if we were trying to be completely scientific. For the most part though, we're definitely on the right track.
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Fahkface
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: libertaire]
#11917016 - 01/28/10 09:43 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Science is man-made and therefore we could actually invent our own mycological language.
It's probably useless to argue about it.
Let's just be happy about the fact, that we are able to enjoy mushrooms
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CaptainAhab
Honky
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Fahkface]
#11917858 - 01/28/10 12:38 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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You are a good man, Crang
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Cyanesense
AMU's Fish Killa
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Fahkface]
#11918963 - 01/28/10 03:10 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fahkface said:
Science is man-made and therefore we could actually invent our own mycological language.
It's probably useless to argue about it.
Let's just be happy about the fact, that we are able to enjoy mushrooms
I doubt the community could even agree on an invented mushroom language
But yes we can all be thankful to enjoy the FRUITS of our labors 
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Everything I say is totally false - and all my pictures were stolen from SWIM.
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PrimalSoup
stronger than dirt
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Cervantes]
#11925551 - 01/29/10 04:12 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
If you all have any more suggestions for terminology, to better explain the differences between commercial and non-commercial multisporous cubes, I would love to hear them.
Well, just take a page from domestic animals and plants and call them "breeds". Everybody knows (I hope) that you can cross any two dog breeds and get mixed offspring.
Mushrooms haven't been bred for nearly as long, but they show some of the same characteristics regarding phenotype, vigor, and other valued qualities.
And the point of breeding is still the same - domestic animals have been bred for hundreds if not thousands of generations by people who were going after particular characteristics, and got them. Breed a purebred to another purebred of the same type and you get a purebred offspring. Maybe with recessives showing up, but it's pretty easy to understand.
Peace
-PS
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Cervantes
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: PrimalSoup]
#11925986 - 01/29/10 05:50 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Breed" covers fascinating territory... but I am afraid it sounds TOO much like an animal... that would lead to a whole new set of problems.
People don't 'Breed' plants... and mycologists don't breed mushrooms. Part of the problem is, "Breed" is also a verb.
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Cervantes]
#11937544 - 01/31/10 06:16 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah, I realized that later on. But plant breeders and breeding is well established (see wiki on plant breeding), though the results are usually called varieties (which would be my second choice) and often are hybrids, the test being sterility SFAIK.
Anyway, I've seen breeding going on with ps. cubensis - taking two varieties with recognizable characteristics and crossing them is breeding, IMHO. Selecting from mutation is similar and part of normal breeding activity, no question.
Peace
-PS
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...................................................The ConstruKction of Light: king crimson
   
Primal's simple tested teks and projects:  Grain Prep Tea Tek Potency Project!
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Cervantes
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: PrimalSoup]
#11939085 - 01/31/10 10:12 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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I agree with you... I just don't think it is the SIMPLEST way to explain this all to a bunch of stoner hippies.
Also, crossing one cube with another could be called breeding... but why? We already call it crossing.
Breeding suggests male and female. Animals and plants are more acceptable for this term than mushrooms and spores.
Thank you for furthering the discussion. I disagree, not because you are wrong, rather because I fear your suggestion would cause as many new problems as it solves old ones.
I have a lot of experience talking to n00b mycologists here on The Shromery. Words must be PERFECTLY selected or confusion ensues. We don't have perfect words for 'Strains' yet. Hopefully we will some day soon.
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
Edited by Cervantes (01/31/10 10:18 PM)
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PureGrit
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Cervantes]
#11940552 - 02/01/10 06:26 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Does anyone know anything about "Space Coast"?
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"But our trip was different. It was a classic affirmation of everything right and true and decent in the national character. It was a gross, physical salute to the fantastic possibilities of life in this country—but only for those with true grit. And we were chock full of that."
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Fahkface
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: PureGrit]
#11940586 - 02/01/10 06:42 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Although I've never heard of that "strain", I strongly assume it's another bull shit name for a totally regular Psilocybe cubensis.
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PureGrit
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Fahkface]
#11940648 - 02/01/10 07:04 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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figured as much, says they found in on the coast of florda.
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"But our trip was different. It was a classic affirmation of everything right and true and decent in the national character. It was a gross, physical salute to the fantastic possibilities of life in this country—but only for those with true grit. And we were chock full of that."
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