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Invisiblewhyblameus
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Re: Potency Project [Re: NoOneKnowsHowToAct]
    #11785857 - 01/07/10 07:35 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

ok i have thought about this alot and said it a few times.

i think the b+ bunk flush problem comes from like rr said not labeled
prints right.(on a bigger scale cause the vendor mistake.:smirk:)

i have b+ that came from the hawks eye and i have never been able to find someone on here say they got bunk flushes from b+ from them.and i havent either.

so i would like to ask in here if anyone has ever had bunk b+ from the hawks eye?

i think it is very important so people know were to get reliable genetics when ordering this cube.


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Potency Project [Re: whyblameus]
    #11785956 - 01/07/10 07:50 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Let me ask this: could you isolate for low potency? Would that breed true? Could you establish a low-potency strain?


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Offlinefundamentalchair
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Doc_T]
    #11786166 - 01/07/10 08:18 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Adam Gottlieb - 1976 (http://www.lycaeum.org/~sputnik/Shrooms/shroom1.html) said
Crumble and pulverize the dried mycelial material and combine each 100 mg of this material with 10 ml of methanol. Place the flask in a hot water bath for four hours. Filter the liquids with suction through a filter paper in a buchner funnel with Celite to prevent clogging. Collect and save the filtrate liquids. Heat the slurry (the mush in the filter paper) two more times in methanol as before, filter, and accumulate the liquids of the three extractions. To be certain that all of the alkaloids have been extracted do a small extraction with a portion of the used slurry and test with Keller's reagent (glacial acetic acid, ferrous chloride, and concentrated sulfuric acid). If there is a violet indication, alkaloids are still present and further extraction is in order.

In an open beaker evaporate the liquids to total dryness with a hot water bath or by applying a hair dryer. Be certain that all traces of methanol have been removed. The remaining residue should contain 25-50 percent psilocybin/psilocin mixture. Greater purification can be achieved, but would require other solvents and chromatography equipment and is hardly necessary.




Please keep in mind that the article in its entirety is quite dated (30+ years), but shows the basics.

I would suggest going from a GLC process, or from a dehydrated fruit to straining (instead of who the hell knows what he is saying).

Quote:

Wikipedia () said:
Psilocybin (O-phosphoryl-4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine) is a prodrug that is converted into the pharmacologically active compound psilocin in the body by a dephosphorylation reaction.[20] This chemical reaction takes place under strongly acidic conditions, or under physiological conditions in the body, through the action of enzymes called phosphatases. Psilocybin is a tryptamine compound having a chemical structure derived from tryptophan and containing a ring configuration called an indole linked to an ethylamine substituent. It bears a close structural resemblance to the neurotransmitter serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine). Psilocybin is a zwitterionic alkaloid that is soluble in water, moderately soluble in methanol and ethanol, and insoluble in most organic solvents. Exposure to light is detrimental to the stability of aqueous solutions of psilocybin, and will cause it to rapidly oxidize—an important consideration when using it as an analytical standard.[21] A method for the large-scale synthesis of psilocybin was reported by a Japanese group in 2003.[22]




This may allow us an avenue to go from psilocybin to psilocin, either through enzymes (hell if I know which ones) or possibly an acidic solution (acetic, hydrochloric, sulfuric?). This would be handy in that (assuming no destruction of either psilocybin or psilocin, and a 100% conversion) that we can get a nice number stating the overall mass of psilocybin/psilocin content per mass of mycelium/fruit. Without doing such a conversion their relative ratios would have to be taken into consideration or be separated for an accurate measurement (due to difference in molecular mass).

If the above information is correct, one could further purify the concoction by washing in a battery of solvents (that won't themselves mix). By using Keller's reagent (assuming it works) and through some testing, one could create a list of solvents that p&p are solulable in but the others are not. By disolving each of the solvents pre/post 'wash', one can surmise which solvents leave or remove other material.

Can it be done? Sure, but that's all the research I do for free.

Quote:

DocT said
Sure you'll have other things besides psilocybin, but that will be fairly constant.




That is a invalid assumption.

Quote:

So, i can do everything but the diethyl ether, sodium sulfate, and nitrogen evaporation lol.... The first part is actually pretty simple.




Other inert gasses should be able to be substituted for nitrogen. If pure enough, Xeon/Neon/etc could be yanked out of a 'neon sign', theoretically.

2 NaCl + H2SO4 → 2 HCl + Na2SO4

Assuming you can still out some anhydrous sulfuric acid and have a fume hood, that shouldn't be too difficult to produce.

Quote:

Let me ask this: could you isolate for low potency? Would that breed true? Could you establish a low-potency strain?




Using (un)natural selection, you should be able to promote any feature (within reason). Done long and hard enough, you could well isolate a new species.

Quote:

I also suspect the PE's unique looks may impact the mindset of many trippers, often making it seem more potent than it actually is.




I always get giddy before I take a penis to the food hole...


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Edited by fundamentalchair (01/07/10 08:29 PM)

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InvisibleNecco
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Doc_T]
    #11786256 - 01/07/10 08:34 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know about ideal, that protocol looks like it would actually be quite a pain to do 100+ times. It can be pretty difficult to accurately (quantitatively) pull off an acid/base extraction.

Still worth considering tho, I suppose. Ether could be substituted for any variety of non polar solvents (for those who are bothered by ordering ether) and the rest of the stuff is easy to get. Sodium sulfate is easy to make, cheap and easy to buy (or use a different desiccant). Nitrogen tanks are easily rented from the local welding supply, and that step can also be substituted by any number of alternatives.

This concept lends itself only to a prolific grower. Let's say you took 10 samples each from 5 trays each of 4 different strains, that would potentially be 2kg dried material for analysis alone. Not unheard of, but certainly not happening in my closet.

Edit: whoops, the pages are flying by, this was directed at the protocol suggested by NoOneKnowsHowToAct on page 2

Edited by Necco (01/07/10 08:48 PM)

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InvisibleNecco
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Re: Potency Project [Re: fundamentalchair]
    #11786325 - 01/07/10 08:44 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fundamentalchair said:
I would suggest going from a GLC process, or from a dehydrated fruit to straining (instead of who the hell knows what he is saying).
...
This may allow us an avenue to go from psilocybin to psilocin
...
Other inert gasses should be able to be substituted for nitrogen. If pure enough, Xeon/Neon/etc could be yanked out of a 'neon sign', theoretically.
...
Assuming you can still out some anhydrous sulfuric acid and have a fume hood, that shouldn't be too difficult to produce.
...





Using fresh material would be essential due to differences in drying technique and the affect of drying on actives.

Conversion of psilocybin to psilocin would be unnecessary using colorimetric techniques as I described earlier.

Harvesting neon is preposterous. You could accomplish the same goal by using CO2 from a draft system, you could even use natural gas from your stove. Inert gasses are unnecessary in this case, only low reactive gasses.

Lol, anhydrous sulfuric acid. Try mixing dilute sulfuric acid with dilute sodium hydroxide, drying it out in a pan then baking it in the oven. Tada!


--------------------

"Now ether was substituted for chloroform, and the difference of their phenomena noted, and now some other exhilarant, in the form of an opiate or stimulant, was the instrument of my experiments, until I had run through the whole gamut of queer agents within my reach..."          I can do everything!!

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Necco]
    #11786337 - 01/07/10 08:45 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I hope to start with something far simpler... like weighed extractions.

If it looks like some 'Strains' are regularly more or less potent than others it may be worth digging a bit deeper.


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InvisibleNecco
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Rose]
    #11786367 - 01/07/10 08:50 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Grinding 2 grams of fresh mushroom with some solvent, filtering, adding a coloring reagent, pouring in a cuvette and sticking in a spectrophotometer is about as simple as you can get.

A whole lot easier than going all the way to extracted solids.

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Offlineevildee125
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Rose]
    #11786378 - 01/07/10 08:52 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

this should be interesting.. i received b+ from a member but had no intention of using it anytime soon given i already have other things in the works.. would i also need pe to enter.. i have pr

u know come to think of it .. shouldt substrates be included ..


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Edited by evildee125 (01/07/10 08:55 PM)

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Necco]
    #11786393 - 01/07/10 08:55 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah.

What I am hoping is that a bunch of Trusted PE growers save... say 5-10% of their stash to be used in their own extractions... then they post the results... and compare the results with any other type of extracted cube.

It is hardly scientific, but it may provide enough evidence to see if we should investigate further, or it may show conclusively that PE's potency is just a perceived placebo. Either way, I'd like to find out more than we already know.


--------------------
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Edited by Rose (01/07/10 09:01 PM)

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Potency Project [Re: evildee125]
    #11786399 - 01/07/10 08:56 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

evildee125 said:
this should be interesting.. i received b+ from a member but had no intention of using it anytime soon given i already have other things in the works.. would i also need pe to enter.. i have pr

u know come to think of it .. shouldt substrates be included ..




PR is the other 'Strain' with consistently good potency reports... I am surprised it isn't more popular. I would love to learn more about PR potency as well.

I am not convinced substrate effects potency, but it would be worth researching... even if it just puts that rumor to rest.

It would be great if people listed their results and the substrates used... just for shits and giggles.


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Offlineevildee125
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Rose]
    #11786425 - 01/07/10 09:00 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

yeah i remember reading about its potency at first.. but then that never really caught on like pe did..

i brought up the substrate issue given that one could always argue that had something to do with it.. just thinking of way to keep it consistent across the board

Edited by evildee125 (01/07/10 09:02 PM)

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InvisibleTacoHerder
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Rose]
    #11786431 - 01/07/10 09:01 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

is there a chemical that could break down the active chemical in mushrooms? SO making it possible somehow to deterime how potent the mushroom is by how long it takes the chemical to get broken down? i dont know, prob just talking out my ass.


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OfflineImaginingEmotions
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Necco]
    #11786444 - 01/07/10 09:02 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Can potency be affected by growing conditions, substrates, nutes, temp, light, humidity, time of harvest(before veil breaking or after) etc.?

If potency can be affected by growing conditions, then wouldn't a bunk report possibly come from someone who either was inexperienced or lack of maintenance during a grow?

I've seen a thread somewhere around here about a study a group did on growing cubes without light and they became more potent 100 fold....I will see if I can find it and post a link to it in this thread.

On a side note, when researching into motorcycles before I bought mine I was reading on CBR1000's on the 1000rr.net forum. There was people always asking about how the 2008 models smoked and burned oil and why it happened. Many people, even employees from honda, stated that it was just a big rumor. Even after they said that, noobs would come on the forums and keep asking about this rumor still believing it was real.

^^^The case of the B+ Bunk I feel is just like another one of those rumors.... Yeah, you can get a brand new bike to smoke and burn oil if you don't let it warm up before you ride it or snap throttle to redline... and I bet if your grow conditions were less then adequate I think you might be just making your mushies bunk all on your own.


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Edited by ImaginingEmotions (01/07/10 09:05 PM)

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OfflineNoOneKnowsHowToAct
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Re: Potency Project [Re: evildee125]
    #11786465 - 01/07/10 09:06 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

dunno how well this is going to work but i'm doing a small experiment with super easy to find shit as substitutes and some left-over crap that no one wants to eat (verm stuck to stem bases, etc... from a while ago... these days I cut them off after picking). For my acid I'm using lemon juice. For my base I'm using a sodium carbonate solution (produced by putting some baking soda in a glass of water and sticking it in the microwave for a couple of minutes). Only naphtha I have is some coleman camp fuel. It has the rust protector crap in it unfortunately. Still, I'm doing an experiment. Never done an acid/base extraction before. I'm probably not going to use the product. Just seeing what happens really lol.


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Offlineevildee125
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Re: Potency Project [Re: ImaginingEmotions]
    #11786481 - 01/07/10 09:09 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

we should definitely be testing out substrates.. like ccv vs cv or ccv vs hpoo


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Offlinekevbo
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Re: Potency Project [Re: evildee125]
    #11786842 - 01/07/10 10:24 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I keep seeing it said that all strains are the same, blah blah. But the fact that geologically isolated strains consistently display a unique set of phenotypes is inherently enough evidence to show that certain strains MAY tend to produce more psilocybin than other strains. I doubt the difference is huge.

What if B+ is more susceptible to certain mutations or recessive phenotypes which cause low potency? Look at humans, although we are all homo sapiens, white people and black people and Asians people have many different, exclusive diseases and features. If there is any reason to assume that increased psilocybin led to a greater propagation of genes moreso in some environments than in others, the strain-potency connection would almost certainly exist. I also believe that this slightly alters optimal growing environments (the genetic variance between strains), but I'll stay on topic.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Potency Project [Re: evildee125]
    #11786850 - 01/07/10 10:27 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

evildee125 said:
we should definitely be testing out substrates.. like ccv vs cv or ccv vs hpoo




It's been done thousands of times before.  Every substrate known has produced awesome fruits and bunk fruits, sometimes on the same flush.  I ran tests a few years ago on many different substrates, all with the same isolated strain.  Potency, while admittedly subjective, seemed to be the same on all substrates, whether pf cakes, straw, manure, compost, or my favorite substrate of all, a combination of everything.

It's really a moot point for those too lazy to do strain isolation.  We already know that growing from multispore inoculation is like a roll of the dice. . .a dice with billions of sides, that is.  I've had bunk PE too, but my PE isolates produce the same quality, flush after flush, year after year.  It's as simple as strain isolation, but the biggest problem with that is our average member here gets one or two flushes, gets the shit scared out of him, and goes on to the next hobby without ever mastering this one.  Those who stick around for the love of fungi, tend to get tired of tripping after a few years and don't really care. :shrug:
RR


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Potency Project [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11786874 - 01/07/10 10:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with you about substrate.

I do believe research about potency would at the very least put the end to some rumors and a lot of speculation. It is odd that a few 'Strains' are better known for their potency than others... especially if your theories are correct.


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InvisibleTacoHerder
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Re: Potency Project [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11786885 - 01/07/10 10:33 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
  Those who stick around for the love of fungi, tend to get tired of tripping after a few years and don't really care. :shrug:
RR




thats what edibles are good for:super:


--------------------
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We need more member like mycochef, he is truly a kind giving person. Just ask Noobie, mycochef hooked him up big time!
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OfflineSillyBilly
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Re: Potency Project [Re: TacoHerder]
    #11786922 - 01/07/10 10:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I would love to test people with the placebo idea on PE like I have with PR. I am pretty sure they wouldn't know the difference from looking at the two without knowing to ask.


--------------------
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