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 PoopIntrusion
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 Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting?
#11735261 - 12/28/09 11:51 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Bacillus Subtilus, a bacteria found in soil, is found to inhibit green mold growth without affecting mycelium.
Canadians applied for the patent,
could come in spray or pellet form...
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/ia.jsp?ia=CA2009/000224
Has anyone experimented with this?
Could you increase the production of Bacillus Subtilus through composting certain materials?
Is it a certain isolate of Bacillus?
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Doc_T
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: PoopIntrusion]
#11735947 - 12/29/09 05:04 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PoopIntrusion said: Is it a certain isolate of Bacillus?
A Bacillus species, and probably an isolate from there. There's lots of Bacilluses, and within a species some individuals will be more desirable for a certain purposes.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: Doc_T]
#11736436 - 12/29/09 09:05 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's the reason we pasteurize casing layer and substrate materials. The temperatures kill mold spores but leave behind the bacteria, leading to less chance of green molds taking over. We've known about this for a long time. Trichoderma inhabits nearly every square inch of soil on earth, yet you rarely see 'green dirt'. The reason is the natural presence of other organisms.
I wonder what they're considering to be the 'invention'? It almost sounds as silly as trying to patent the dog as a rabbit control, because dogs chase rabbits. 
RR
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PoopIntrusion
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#11736829 - 12/29/09 10:40 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's the reason we pasteurize casing layer and substrate materials. The temperatures kill mold spores but leave behind the bacteria, leading to less chance of green molds taking over. We've known about this for a long time. Trichoderma inhabits nearly every square inch of soil on earth, yet you rarely see 'green dirt'. The reason is the natural presence of other organisms.
yes. but if this is the actual thing that inhibits trich, then should we not do more than preserve it, but rather we should not be cultivating the bacteria?
It seems to me that there is a general idea that we weren't sterile enough if we get trich, when often enough we were being too sterile.
Quote:
I wonder what they're considering to be the 'invention'? It almost sounds as silly as trying to patent the dog as a rabbit control, because dogs chase rabbits.
RR
yeah, I imagine the intention to use it for horticultural purposes, and thus the mediums involving that were the "invention"
There were some legal battles a few years ago when the human genome project began. Last I heard our genes are being patented.
Upon more research, I found that the US Marines were fed b. subtilis so they could drink water without getting dysentery in Mexico.
And also that you can buy a frozen culture of it here: http://wardsci.com/product.asp?pn=IG0005124&cm_mmc=Mercent-_-Google-_-NULL-_-850228&mr:trackingCode=436F975B-6581-DE11-8C0A-000423C27502&mr:referralID=NA&bhcd2=1262111493
Though I'm not entirely sure what you would do with it in order to deliver it to fight trich.
Perhaps cultivating it on agar and suspending it in your misting solution or in the water you dunk?
(My problem is I get Trich during colonization, so I would rather not dunk a trich baby, I would rather make highly resistant substrate)
If someone who understands the biological chain of events that occurs in substrates can point me down the right path of an experiment, where and how to introduce the b. subtilis, I might be able to try it.
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solumvita
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: PoopIntrusion]
#11736844 - 12/29/09 10:43 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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They normally patent/place breeders rights on the actual strain that they have discovered. This becomes the 'invention' or failing that the process to deliver/apply the isolate in a viable living form.
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One of these days all the answers will be revealed until then we learn from each other!
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 CheeWiz
Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 263
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: solumvita]
#11737396 - 12/29/09 12:15 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by CheeWiz (12/29/09 10:23 PM)
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PoopIntrusion
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: CheeWiz]
#11738297 - 12/29/09 03:23 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hipster,
This might be hearsay and slightly off subject, but from my understanding alfalfa is actually too nutritious to feed horses and can be harmful in large amounts because it can raise the temperature of their bodies, and the ligaments that hold their coffin bone in place can soften, allowing the bone to slip resulting in a lame horse. This of course is mostly applicable to horses which have elevated body temps because they are being trained and ridden.
Just looked into Companion, it's a bit expensive, but not as expensive as Trich... Perhaps adding some to manure/starw compost would do the trich. Unfortunately, I think it is too cold here to compost at the moment...
Considering the bit about eating camel feeding the horses bacillus subtilis?
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CheeWiz
Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 263
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: PoopIntrusion]
#11738939 - 12/29/09 05:19 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hi PoopIntrusion; Horses and other beast of burden get the Bacillus Subtilus from the straw that's in there normal diet and Bacillus Subtilus is naturally found in most straws, wheat, oat, rice, rye, ex.. It can survive the gut of horses and that's why horse poo has been use as a compost starter for hundreds of years for things like farm wast and forest produces wast that do not contain the right bacteria to compost on its own. You can also compost clean straw by soaking, pasteurizing and treating with some urea.
As for eating dung this was observation made by the German doctors during WW2 that lead to Bacillus Subtilus being cultured to help prevent food born illness. For years you could buy small bottles of Bacillus Subtilus culture to drink before you traveled into Mexico along the USA/Mexico bolder. When I was a young man I would start three to four days before traveling by drinking a bottle a night with a small bowl of oat meal and I never got sick. But I had friends who spent most of their time in the bathroom with a bad case of the screamers.
Look into buying Natto culture on line http://www.gemcultures.com/soy_cultures.htm.
It grows on soaked and pasteurized soy beans. After you cultured your soy beans you can use them to culture your pasteurized straw and its cost to get into is a lot cheaper. Years ago Natto was made by taking rice straw and washing with hot water, drained and placing in a bowl to which boiled soy beans were added. The B Subtilus-Natto from the straw will start to grow on the soy beans because of its high nitrogen content some thing lacking in the straw that's needed for it to grow.
I'm 58 now and have not cared for horses for years now. But that is close to what I was told too, what your describing is what you would end up with if you feed some thing like Omolene (a high energy oat & molasses feed) to horses that are not being worked like a race or grandpre (jump) horse. Back in the late 60's there still was allot of fields of wild oats growing around here and when the county fire authority would make them cut and bale it, well then it was a great time to buy. This was a great feed because it had most of its grain head intact and it was cheap. Hell we would buy a good years supply at a time. But we would feed half oat hay and half alfalfa plus a little extra rolled oats on mornings if we were going to work our horses. But the people at the stables around here now feed mostly alfalfa. I can't even find any one who feeds hay cubes any more. Go figure! Hiptster
Edited by CheeWiz (12/30/09 02:23 AM)
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fastfred
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: CheeWiz]
#11784525 - 01/07/10 02:53 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Horses are put to pasture in alfalfa fields all the time with no ill effects. Maybe it's a problem in hot climates, but in the places I've lived most fields for grazing are planted with alfalfa and a grass. Most of the available higher quality hay also contains significant alfalfa. Hay without it isn't considered to have good nutritional quality where I've lived.
Now grains OTOH can cause stomach problems for grazing animals that aren't used to eating grain. Usually you start mixing in grain with the hay gradually until you get up to the grain content you want. Animals fed this way have no problem eating grain in reasonable amounts.
But yea, if you feed a big bucket of grain to a normally hay fed horse it can harm or even kill them.
As far as the bacterial mix... I'm surprised nobody's making a "pro-biotic" mushroom mix yet. There's already plenty of bacteria known to be beneficial. Maybe somebody can start with one strain and keep adding new bacteria to the mix that are found to be beneficial.
I don't think you'd get all that great of results from just a single strain of bacteria. Bacteria in nature live in a complex symbiosis and it's this "every niche is filled" system that keeps "bad" bacteria from multiplying to problem causing numbers.
-FF
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falcon
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: PoopIntrusion]
#11951155 - 02/02/10 08:38 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey PoopIntrusion,
I started playing with B. subtilis after I saw your thread and Hipsters replies, that was a couple of weeks ago. A thread,
Making Natto
I think using Natto may work as a selective media for mushroom mycelium, and if not it something fun to play with.
This weekend I made some to try as media.
This is potato skins inoculated with natto beans. This picture was taken after it had been left to ferment for about 12 hours. You can see that a little of the characteristic slime that you get with Natto had developed on the potatoes.
My method, not really sterile, but clean.
The tea leaves, coffee grounds and potato skins were inoculated with natto beans.
But first, all the substrates were microwaved, three times. The plates and bowl they were in were covered with plastic wrap and nuked till the plastic wrap puffed up away from the substrate, this was done three times for each substrate.
Some water was boiled with three spoons and three shot glasses that were submerged, and a pair of tongs, that the grabbing end was submerged. The shot glasses were pulled out with the tongs, with some water in each. To each shot glass with water was added about an eighth of a teaspoon of raw sugar and a few grains of salt. When the shot glasses had cooled a teaspoon of Natto was added to each and stirred. When the each of the substrates had cooled one of the shot glasses was added and the mixture stirred. The spoons were boiled for this stirring.
   
What I used as inoculant
A little slime developed in the potato. This picture was taken a little before the first picture in this post.
After twelve hours the potato skins smelled strongly like natto, and had developed some slime.
The tea leaves and the coffee grounds did not smell like natto nor had they developed any slime.
Yesterday, almost 2 days after they were started, some baby portabella tissue was put on each of the substrates.
Some Shiitake tissue was put on each of the substrates.
And an agar wedge of morel was put on the coffee and the Potato substrate. All of these additions to substrates were done in individual clear plastic containers with lids
Today it is three days after the three substrates were inoculated with natto and the tea leaves are starting to smell like natto and get a little sticky.
The extra coffee substrate was thrown out, so I don't know if they developed the characteristic smell of Natto.
The agar wedge on the coffee grounds fuzzed out today  , none of other fungi is showing growth.
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falcon
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: falcon]
#11991513 - 02/08/10 08:10 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Good news and bad news,
Bad news
The the pieces of shiitake and the baby portabellas were engulfed and incorporated into the seething mass of B. subtilis. They are no more.
Good news, the morel mycelium from the agar wedge has crawled out onto the coffee grounds,
 
I also put some B. subtilis on brown rice. After it was fully colonized it was dried. I plan on putting this into substrates and inoculating the substrate with whatever I have on hand. I'll probably grind the dried brown rice.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: falcon]
#11992179 - 02/08/10 09:28 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bad news
The the pieces of shiitake and the baby portabellas were engulfed and incorporated into the seething mass of B. subtilis. They are no more.
I wonder if you could inoculate with the B subtilis, let it grow for awhile and then pasteurize to knock it back just before you inoculate with mushroom mycelium? Shiitake mycelium is very weak and won't survive unless it's either in sterile culture or a natural balanced ecosystem.
RR
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
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Mycelio
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: falcon]
#11992775 - 02/08/10 11:04 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Try oysters. From my experience with lactic acid fermentation, Pleurotus ostreatus and eryngii are the strongest, P. pulmonarius and Hypsizygus ulmarius also do well, while Shiitake and buttons failed most times. I'd use at least a spoonful of colonized substrate (in one piece) for inoculation, so it won't get overrun, before it can adapt and fight back.
For the weaker species I'd go with RR and try pasteurization.
Damned, I've got to find natto around here...
Carsten
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falcon
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: Mycelio]
#11993517 - 02/09/10 04:51 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
I wonder if you could inoculate with the B subtilis, let it grow for awhile and then pasteurize to knock it back just before you inoculate with mushroom mycelium? Shiitake mycelium is very weak and won't survive unless it's either in sterile culture or a natural balanced ecosystem.
RR
Quote:
Mycelio said:
Try oysters. From my experience with lactic acid fermentation, Pleurotus ostreatus and eryngii are the strongest, P. pulmonarius and Hypsizygus ulmarius also do well, while Shiitake and buttons failed most times. I'd use at least a spoonful of colonized substrate (in one piece) for inoculation, so it won't get overrun, before it can adapt and fight back.
Carsten
I'll try both of these suggestions soon.
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falcon
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: falcon]
#12339043 - 04/05/10 09:28 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
falcon said:
I also put some B. subtilis on brown rice. After it was fully colonized it was dried. I plan on putting this into substrates and inoculating the substrate with whatever I have on hand. I'll probably grind the dried brown rice.
 
I ground the rice today, and added a Tbsp to about a gallon and a half of hot water with a Tbsp and half of brown sugar.
Let the water cool to about 90F, it was about 130F when I put the natto rice in.
Then I dunked a flower pot full of wood shavings that had some trich growing in it.
Don't hold much hope for the culture (gym) that was in with the wood shavings, but since it was going into the compost heap anyway...
It was as good as any reason to grind the rice.
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Mycelio
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: falcon]
#12367778 - 04/10/10 01:16 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hi Falcon,
sounds interesting, please keep us updated.
Mushroom Growers Handbook 2 mentions spraying with B. subtilis against green mold infections on page 256.
http://www.fungifun.org/mushworld/Shiitake-Mushroom-Cultivation/mushroom-growers-handbook-2-mushworld-com-chapter10-01_p.244.pdf
Perhaps we should look into studies on the antibacterial properties of mushroom species to find one that would be able to colonize substrate, which had been fermented by B. subtilis.
BTW: Did the morel mycelium survive?
Carsten
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CheeWiz
Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 263
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: Mycelio]
#12371734 - 04/11/10 07:14 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hi falcon; Bacillus Subtilus-strain (Natto, ex.) needs a relatively high nitrogen content in its growing medium. One has to remember that B. Subtilus is found naturally in straw. What keeps the straw from spontaneously culturing its B. Subtilus is the fact that straw has very low nitrogen content. In Asian Natto (the Japanese name for it) was discovered much in the same way that Roquefort (blue) cheese was discovered. Roquefort is credited to a Sheppard that left his sheep’s milk cheese in a cave that returned some time later to find the mold in the cave had changed it to a blue cheese. In the case of Natto it was discovered by people that had steamed soybeans in a rice straw lined bamboo steamer that had been neglected after cooking and the B. Subtilus that was in the rice straw started to grow on the soybeans making Natto.
The point I’m trying to make is that you’re trying growing it on a high starch medium (potato skins and brown rice, ex.) which is great for growing fungi but not necessarily this type of bacteria. What you should be using is something like chick pea meal, green pea meal, soybean meal and ex., then using that culture to inoculate a fibrous substrate material like straw that has been pasteurized and treated with urea (the best thing to use for this, but not the only). Hipster
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falcon
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: Mycelio]
#12372022 - 04/11/10 09:39 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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The morel mycelia lived but I still had it on agar and didn't have plans for it at the time so it went into the compost.
The wood shaving that I soaked in the water didn't work out so well they succumbed to trich.
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falcon
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Re: Green Mold Inhibitor patent...composting? [Re: CheeWiz]
#12372033 - 04/11/10 09:43 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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I might try it on some coffee grounds again, they colonized well with the natto strain.
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