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 twirlingdervish
spicy treat
 
Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 274
Loc: Podunk, KY
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 Is the Antichrist really that bad??
#11510528 - 11/23/09 11:07 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Just wondering if maybe the antichrist "prophecies" might have been just as misunderstood by the Christians as Jesus himself is...
Perhaps the Antichrist or antichrists is really just symbolic ofr a person or people whose purpose is to bring about the end of Christian rule. In which case he would be more of a hero than a villain.
Maybe...
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"Reality is only a rorschach ink blot you know."
~Alan Watts
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 MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
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Perhaps all christianity is a symbol for some folk's psyches. 
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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pockets le peu
Mega Duce Dropper
Registered: 11/19/09
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Loc: northeast
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#11511488 - 11/23/09 01:20 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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if somthing can go wrong, it will!-darwin-
hey everyone will die. now all i have to do is average out the deaths in your race and area yadda yadda. if your good at keeping track of patterns then you will be close. how close? depends on your formula and calculations. every atom has a pattern that can be followed and now scientist can tell you where a given atom will be in the future. the problem is keeping track of every atom as a whole! so is fate pre destined? yes, but you concieve it as if you have a choice which makes for a more interesting and enjoyable life. a life worth living!
sorry to go off track, i like to build with others like me.
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pressure can do two things, bust pipes and make diamonds.
what are you!?
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
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I'd like the meet the Antichrist and give him/her a big hug! 
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astralsun.blogspot.com
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
  
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pockets le peu
Mega Duce Dropper
Registered: 11/19/09
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Loc: northeast
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#11511615 - 11/23/09 01:37 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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if theres a concious anti christ then theres an actual concious god, which i cant believe. also our god has his own god, just as you are god to your pets if they could concieve a mysical, which i can believe.
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pressure can do two things, bust pipes and make diamonds.
what are you!?
Edited by pockets le peu (11/23/09 01:39 PM)
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BiG_StroOnZ
Lost White Brother
Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 3,061
Loc: New Jersey 
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Ante-Christ, simply translates to before Christ, or "Before the Anointed"
Obviously, over time, the translation or true interpretation was lost. Which is why you now see it as Anti-Christ and not Ante-Christ.
Now the subject of "The Mark" (666, 606, 616) is an entirely different topic:
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Shroomism
I AM
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 50,539
Loc: The Void
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I think I might be the antichrist 
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
twirlingdervish said:
Just wondering if maybe the antichrist "prophecies" might have been just as misunderstood by the Christians as Jesus himself is...
Perhaps the Antichrist or antichrists is really just symbolic ofr a person or people whose purpose is to bring about the end of Christian rule. In which case he would be more of a hero than a villain.
Maybe...
how are they misunderstood?
post the scripture and show us how us Christians has misinterpreted
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: BiG_StroOnZ]
#11514386 - 11/23/09 07:19 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BiG_StroOnZ said:
Ante-Christ, simply translates to before Christ, or "Before the Anointed"
Obviously, over time, the translation or true interpretation was lost. Which is why you now see it as Anti-Christ and not Ante-Christ.
Now the subject of "The Mark" (666, 606, 616) is an entirely different topic:
2 Thessalonians 2:
1Now we request you, (A)brethren, with regard to the (B)coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our (C)gathering together to Him,
2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a (D)spirit or a (E)message or a (F)letter as if from us, to the effect that (G)the day of the Lord (H)has come.
3(I)Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [a](J)apostasy comes first, and the (K)man of lawlessness is revealed, the (L)son of destruction,
4who opposes and exalts himself above (M)every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, (N)displaying himself as being God.
5Do you not remember that (O)while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6And you know (P)what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7For (Q)the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only (R)he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8Then that lawless one (S)will be revealed whom the Lord will slay (T)with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the (U)appearance of His coming;
9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of (V)Satan, with all power and (W)signs and false wonders,
10and with all the deception of wickedness for (X)those who perish, because they did not receive the love of (Y)the truth so as to be saved.
this is a commonly held view amongst the new age movement
the Anti-Christ being a good guy, scripture being coded for the illumined to understand, the prophecy already being fulfilled
its bullshit
you can't sit down and read the bible and honestly come to this conclusion
some type of extreme self deception has to be in place
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walkingeyeball
Dreamer
Registered: 09/14/09
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Quote:
twirlingdervish said:
Just wondering if maybe the antichrist "prophecies" might have been just as misunderstood by the Christians as Jesus himself is...
Perhaps the Antichrist or antichrists is really just symbolic ofr a person or people whose purpose is to bring about the end of Christian rule. In which case he would be more of a hero than a villain.
Maybe...
Saying that the Anti-Christ is "bad" is coming from a dualistic viewpoint. Just as the yin and ying, everything is made up of opposing sides. Even the "Christ" was equally "bad" as he was "good."
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"We come from the stars
We have no ships
We travel from mind to mind
As you open your heart
We enter your body
As you open your heart
We enter your imagination
As you open your heart
We enter your dreams "
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twirlingdervish
spicy treat
Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 274
Loc: Podunk, KY
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Quote:
walkingeyeball said:
Saying that the Anti-Christ is "bad" is coming from a dualistic viewpoint. Just as the yin and ying, everything is made up of opposing sides. Even the "Christ" was equally "bad" as he was "good."
I like the way you think. 
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"Reality is only a rorschach ink blot you know."
~Alan Watts
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Life Upon Death
Stranger
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Quote:
twirlingdervish said:
Quote:
walkingeyeball said:
Saying that the Anti-Christ is "bad" is coming from a dualistic viewpoint. Just as the yin and ying, everything is made up of opposing sides. Even the "Christ" was equally "bad" as he was "good."
I like the way you think.
so what scripture leads you to believe that the Anti-Christ is actually the good guy?
or is this coming from another source?
you do realize that the claims made in the movie zeitgeist have been proven to be completely false and even the narrator Peter Joseph has admitted his views were "immature"
the Pagan texts that speak of resurrection are dated from 150 A.D.-???
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Mr. Middle
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 6,523
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Marduk, Osiris, Krishna, Mithra, Dionysus, Baccus, etc. were indeed pre-Peter resurrection myths.
Of course there are many superficial differences yet they all reflect the same 'transpersonal' process.
Some of the claims in Zeitgeist may be false.
The astrotheology is conjecture, the economic segment is painfully probable.
Anyoneofus could admit our views a few years ago were 'immature'.
There are all kinds of ancient resurrection myths but only Christers are ignorant enough to believe in physical resurrection.
There are no Norse pagan records before 100 CE because the Romans were just beginning to discover them at that time.
There are very real connections between astronomy and all religions.
Yet there is far more to religion than 'mere' astrotheology.
People need to pull their heads out of literalism.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: Mr. Middle]
#11530276 - 11/26/09 01:10 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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you realize there is as much evidence for the historical Jesus as basically any other important person living in the same timeframe?
some of Zeitgeist isn't crap, I was mostly referring to part one
I would invite you to watch this thorough video debunking zeitgeist part 1 with included quotes from even Atheist scholars who believe the source for this perspective is ridiculous(graves, 16 crucified saviors)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAvBP6wKKbg
Edited by Middleman (11/26/09 01:15 AM)
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Mr. Middle
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 6,523
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I've studied Christer history and seriously disagree but I'm not here to debate that.
The point isn't whether these stories are 'real' or not, what's important is their denotations, connotations and intimations.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: Mr. Middle]
#11530299 - 11/26/09 01:23 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said:
I've studied Christer history and seriously disagree but I'm not here to debate that.
The point is not whether these stories are 'real' or not, what's important is their denotations, connotations and intimations.
what do you disagree with? that Jesus actually existed?
heres another thorough video presenting the case for Jesus's existence(includes skeptics interjections)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I93OLYzewgY
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Mr. Middle
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 6,523
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I only disagree that there is as much 'evidence' for Jesus than anyone else, there is much more evidence for many lowly Roman soldiers.
Once the common principles of religions are understood, history becomes a moot point.
BTW, the editors of the scriptures are not to be trusted, they couldn't even rope a camel.
The only way to correctly understand Xtianity is to learn Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek while reading the original texts.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: Mr. Middle]
#11530392 - 11/26/09 02:23 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said:
I only disagree that there is as much 'evidence' for Jesus than anyone else, there is much more evidence for most roman soldiers.
Once the common principles of religions are understood, history becomes a moot point.
Roman historians wrote of Jesus the man(though they did not believe he was God)
they did not write about low level soldiers
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Mr. Middle
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 6,523
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There are references that could be about Jesus but nothing equivocal.
I meant the soldiers left records, children, and graves.
Rome recorded everything and there is no census recorded around the time of Jesus' birth like it says in the NT.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: Mr. Middle]
#11530426 - 11/26/09 02:43 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said:
There are references that could be about Jesus but nothing equivocal.
I meant the soldiers left records, children, and graves.
Rome recorded everything and there is no census recorded around the time of Jesus' birth.
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [or Chrestians[95]] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.
Tacitus the Roman historian
to deny that this reference is to Jesus the man is to self deceive
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Mr. Middle
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 6,523
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Funny Christers like the word 'decieved', Christianity is one of the greatest mass deceptions in history.
Josephus + Tacitus =/≠ forgery.
Not that any one case is indisputable but all of the anomalies in church history add up to some serious suspicion.
That and the Crusades, oh and the Inquisition, not to mention the abomination that is doctrine of everlasting Damnation.
The belief in absolute evil as a force that opposes the will of God and must someday be punished is spiritually naive.
There may be truth to the prophecies as they relate to individual and collective experience but no experience is absolute.
CP Rebuttal:
The passage contains an early non-Christian reference to the origin of Christianity, the execution of Christ described in the Bible's New Testament gospels, and the presence and persecution of Christians in first-century Rome. While a majority of scholars consider the passage authentic, some dispute it.[5] Some supporting authenticity argue it is too critical of Christians to have been added by later Christian scribes.[citation needed]
Some who argue against authenticity assert:[6][7]
No early Christian writers refer to Tacitus even when discussing the subject of Nero and Christian persecution. Tertullian, Lactantius, Sulpicius Severus, Eusebius and Augustine of Hippo make no reference to Tacitus when discussing Christian persecution by Nero, however the Tacitus text itself demonstrates that it may be a good resource for Christians to refer to since the text derides Christians and Christianity thus proving it to be free of later tampering by Christians.[8][citation needed][9]
Pontius Pilate's rank was prefect when he was in Judea.[10] The Tacitus passage mistakenly calls Pilate a procurator, an error also made in translations of a passage by Josephus.[11] (However, Josephus wrote in Greek and never used the Latin term.) It should be noted that after Herod Agrippa's death in AD 44, when Judea reverted to direct Roman rule, Claudius gave procurators control over Judea.[12][13] This was made possible when he augmented the role of procurators so that they had magisterial power.[14][15] Tacitus, who rose through the magisterial ranks[16][17] to become consul and then proconsul had a precise knowledge of significance of the terms involved and knew when Judea began to be administered by procurators. It is therefore problematical that he would use "procurator" instead of "prefect" to describe the governor of Judea prior to the changes that he tells us Claudius brought in.
The passage implies that the Christians may have been guilty of setting fire to Rome, another argument against veracity, for Tacitus was attempting to lay the blame of the fire on Nero by aspersion.[18]
Another ancient writer, Suetonius, mentions Christians being harmed during this period by Nero, but there is no connection made with the fire[19].[20]
Christians or Chrestians?
The surviving copies of Tacitus' works derive from two principal manuscripts, known as the Medicean manuscripts, which are held in the Laurentian Library, and written in Latin. It is the second Medicean manuscript which is the oldest surviving copy of the passage describing Christians. In this manuscript, the first 'i' of the Christianos is quite distinct in appearance from the second, looking somewhat smudged, and lacking the long tail of the second 'i'; additionally, there is a large gap between the first 'i' and the subsequent long s. Georg Andresen was one of the first to comment on the appearance of the first 'i' and subsequent gap, suggesting in 1902 that the text had been altered, and an 'e' had originally been in the text, rather than this 'i'[21].
In 1950, at Harald Fuchs request, Dr. Teresa Lodi, the director of the Laurentian Library, examined the features of this item of the manuscript; she concluded that there are still signs of an 'e' being erased, by removal of the upper and lower horizontal portions, and distortion of the remainder into an 'i'.[22] In 2008, Dr. Ida Giovanna Rao, the new head of the Laurentian Library's manuscript office, repeated Lodi's study, and concluded that it is likely that the 'i' is a correction of some earlier character (like an e), the change being made an extremely subtle one. Later the same year, it was discovered that under ultraviolet light, an 'e' is clearly visible in the space, meaning that the passage must originally have referred to chrestianos, a Latin word which could be interpreted as the good, after the Greek word χρηστός (chrestos), meaning 'good, useful'. "I believe that in our passage of Tacitus the original reading Chrestianos is the true one" says Professor Robert Renehan, stating that it was "natural for a Roman to interpret the words [Christus and Christianus] as the similarly-sounding χρηστός".[23] The word Christian/s is in Codex Sinaiticus (in which Christ is abbreviated - see nomina sacra) spelled Chrestian/s in the three places the word is used. Also in Minuscule 81 this spelling is used in Acts of the Apostles 11:26.[24]
Detail of the Medicean manuscript showing the word 'Christianos'. The large gap between the 'i' and 's' has been highlighted; under ultraviolet light an 'e' is visible in the gap, replacing the 'i':
All ideologies are self-deception and all deception is a sin of omission.
In the wise words of Markos the G., "Biblical infallibility is idolatry."
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: Mr. Middle]
#11530620 - 11/26/09 04:57 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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you really believe that Tacitus was referring to "Chrestians"?
Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [or Chrestians[95]]
Chrestes, Chrestos, Chrestians chrestos (Greek) Applied by the Greeks as a title of respect equivalent to "the worthy." Chrestes meant an interpreter of oracles. In the language of the Mysteries, a chrestos was a candidate or neophyte, and a christos (anointed) was an initiate.
its quite clear that Tacitus would not have been referring to these people as "Chrestians" considering the meaning of the word
it doesn't even matter because regardless of what he called them its obvious he was speaking of Christians and their new beliefs which Tacitus referred too as a "a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome"
everything about this passage matches the accounts of the bible
that Jesus was Crucified by Pontius Pilate and Christianity spread shortly after
to deny that is to deceive yourself as I said
I also already posted a video which goes into these topics at length including Josephus who did write about Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I93OLYzewgY
one account is questioned but another IS NOT
meaning we have a genuine writing of Jesus from Josephus regardless of whether you question the other writing
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Mr. Middle
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 6,523
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
to deny that is to deceive yourself as I said
Well you obviously aren't interested in an intelligent discussion, I might as well write to my 6 year old niece. I bid you good day.
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Life Upon Death
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GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLUS (69 - 130 A.D.) Suetonius was a prominent Roman historian who recorded
the lives of the Roman Caesars and the historical events surrounding their reigns. He served as a court official
under Hadrian and as an annalist for the Imperial House. Suetonius records the expulsion of the Christian Jews
from Rome (mentioned in Acts 18:2) and confirms the Christian faith being founded by Christ.
"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from
Rome." Life of Claudius 25.4
Skeptic Interjection: Because Suetonius misspells Christus as Chrestus, is it possible he was referring to
someone else?
Answer: Because Chrestus was an actual Greek name, critics speculate Suetonius may have been referring to a
specific civil agitator. I would like to present a few arguments as to why I feel this is a reference to Jesus. In
order to get as close to the author's intent as possible, this is the passage as it exists in the original Latin:
"Iudaeos (The Jews) impulsore (the instigation) Chresto (Chrestus) assidue (upon) tumultuantis
(making a disturbance) Roma (Rome) expulit (were expelled)."
1. Suetonius seems to imply the word Chrestus as a title- not as a reference to a particular rebel. Though I
have seen critics cite the passage as "a certain/one Chrestus" we can see this is incorrect by the lack of
the word quodam in the original Latin.
2. Suetonius uses the word instigation- not instigator. The Latin word referring to an instigator is impulsor but
the term referring to an instigation is impusore- and this is the word Suetonius uses, thus affirming the
belief he is using the word Chrestus as a title and not as a name.
3. It was common for both pagan and Christian authors to spell the name using either an e or an i- and we
know the Christian authors were obviously referring to Jesus when they spelled the name as Chrestus.
4. Tertullian criticises pagan disdain for Christianity and points out the fact they can't even spell the name
correctly. He implies the common misspelling of Chrestus by their use of the term Chrestians: "Most
people so blindly knock their heads against the hatred of the Christian name...It is wrongly pronounced
by you as "Chrestians" (for you do not even know accurately the name you hate)... But the special
ground of dislike to the sect is, that it bears the name of its Founder." Apology, Chapter III
5. We also see Justin Martyr (a Christian apologist, nonetheless!) using the incorrect spelling of Chrestian.
First Apology IV
6. Lactantius repeats the lament of Tertullian with his statement, "But the meaning of this name must be set
forth, on account of the error of the ignorant who by the change of a letter are accustomed to call Him
Chrestus." Fathers of the Third and Fourth Centuries
7. Chrestus was a Greco-Roman slave name but Suetonius tells us "foreigners" were not allowed to adopt
such names. Knowing the Jews were a close-knit community, the idea of them following the revolt of a
gentile slave to such an extent to get them (and only them!) expelled from Rome is quite a stretch.
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Life Upon Death
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so here we see that even Christians mispelled the name as Chrestians
correlating Tacitus' account further
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Life Upon Death
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THALLUS (~ 52 A.D.) Although his works exist only in fragments, Julius Africanus debates Thallus' explanation
of the midday darkness which occurred during the Passover of Jesus' crucifixion. Thallus tries to dismiss the
darkness as a natural occurrence (a solar eclipse) but Africanus argues (and any astronomer can confirm) a
solar eclipse cannot physically occur during a full moon due to the alignment of the planets. Phlegon of Tralles, a
2nd century secular historian, also mentions the darkness and tries to dismiss it as a solar eclipse. He also states
the event occurred during the time of Tiberius Caesar.
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness. The rocks were rent by an earthquake and many
places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History,
calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the
14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior falls on the day before the passover. But an
eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other
time... Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from
the sixth hour to the ninth-manifestly that one of which we speak. Chronography XVIII, 47
this is also recorded in the bible:
Matthew 27:
45(BB)Now from the [a]sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour.
51(BF)And behold, (BG)the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and (BH)the earth shook and the rocks were split.
52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had (BI)fallen asleep were raised;
53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered (BJ)the holy city and appeared to many.
54(BK)Now the centurion, and those who were with him (BL)keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw (BM)the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was (BN)the Son of God!"
now if this didn't actually occur WHY would the Roman historian attempt to explain it away as a natural occurence?
answer:
he wouldn't!
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Life Upon Death
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PLINY THE YOUNGER (63 - 113 A.D) Pliny the Younger admits to torturing and executing Christians who
refused to deny Christ. Those who denied the charges were spared and ordered to exalt the Roman gods and
curse the name of Christ. Pliny addresses his concerns to Emperor Trajan that too many citizens were being
killed for their refusal to deny their faith.
"I asked them directly if they were Christians...those who persisted, I ordered away... Those who denied they
were or ever had been Christians...worshiped both your image and the images of the gods and cursed Christ.
They used to gather on a stated day before dawn and sing to Christ as if he were a god... All the more I believed
it necessary to find out what was the truth from two servant maids, which were called deaconesses, by means of
torture. Nothing more did I find than a disgusting, fanatical superstition. Therefore I stopped the examination,
and hastened to consult you...on account of the number of people endangered. For many of all ages, all classes,
and both sexes already are brought into danger..." Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan
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Life Upon Death
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CELSUS (~ 178 A.D.) Celsus was a second century Roman author and avid opponent of Christianity. He went to
great lengths to disprove the divinity of Jesus yet never denied His actual existence. Unfortunately for Celsus, he
sets himself up for criticism by mimicking the exact accusations brought against Jesus by the pharisees which
had already been addressed and refuted in the New Testament. There are two very important facts regarding
Celsus which make him one of the most important witnesses in this discussion:
* Though most secular passages are accused of being Christian interpolations, we can accept with certainty
this is not the case with Celsus! The sheer volume of his writings (specifically designed to discredit
Christianity) coupled with the hostile accusations presented in his work dismiss this chance immediately.
* The idea of Celsus getting his information entirely from Christian sources (another recurring accusation
against secular evidence) is wholly absurd. Though he is obviously aware of his opponents' beliefs (as
anyone who is engaging in a debate should be), Celsus wrote his exposition in the form of a dialogue
between a "Jewish Critic" and himself. This gives us cause to believe he used non-Christian (probably
Jewish) sources.
On Jesus' Miracles: "Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired
certain [magical] powers... He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of
them gave himself out to be a god... It was by means of sorcery that He was able to accomplish the wonders
which He performed... Let us believe that these cures, or the resurrection, or the feeding of a multitude with a
few loaves... These are nothing more than the tricks of jugglers... It is by the names of certain demons, and by
the use of incantations, that the Christians appear to be possessed of [miraculous] power..."
Not only does Celsus confirm Jesus' existence, he also tries to debate the source of Jesus' miracles. Like the
pharisees of Jesus' day, Celsus tries to dismiss these miracles as both demonic possession and cheap parlor
tricks. However, he is clearly grasping at straws: On one hand Celsus accuses Jesus of performing magic learned
in Egypt, then later states it is by the power of possession, then states the miracles were not really miracles at all
but were illusionary tricks performed by a deceiver, then finally states the miracles never occurred!
On the Virgin Birth: "Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her
living by the work of her hands. His mother had been turned out by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade,
on being convicted of adultery [with a Roman soldier named Panthera]. Being thus driven away by her husband,
and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard."
Celsus acknowledges Jesus' birth and existence but does not accept the concept of a virgin conception. He tries
to dismiss Mary's premarital pregnancy as the result of an affair she had with a Roman soldier. Strangely
enough, there is a very similar passage in the Jewish Talmud which makes the same accusation. This gives us
reason to believe Celsus might have referenced Jewish sources for some of his arguments.
On the Apostles: "Jesus gathered around him ten or eleven persons of notorious character... tax-collectors,
sailors, and fishermen... [He was] deserted and delivered up by those who had been his associates, who had him
for their teacher, and who believed he was the savior and son of the greatest God... Those who were his
associates while alive, who listened to his voice, and enjoyed his instructions as their teacher, on seeing him
subjected to punishment and death, neither died with nor for him... but denied that they were even his disciples,
lest they die along with Him."
Celsus' intentions were to argue that if the disciples really believed Jesus was the Son of God, they would not
have forsaken Him at His arrest. Instead, he only ends up confirming the Biblical account! The Bible tells us when
Jesus was arrested, the apostles denied being His followers. It was only upon Jesus' resurrection they understood
the spiritual principles concerning Jesus' crucifixion and boldly went out to preach the Gospel. Celsus is also
wrong with his statement, [they] neither died with nor for him. We are told by early historians all but one of the
remaining apostles were killed for their faith.
On Jesus' Divinity: "One who was a God could neither flee nor be led away a prisoner... What great deeds did
Jesus perform as God? Did he put his enemies to shame or bring to an end what was designed against him? No
calamity happened even to him who condemned him... Why does he not give some manifestation of his divinity,
and free himself from this reproach, and take vengeance upon those who insult both him and his Father?"
Celsus ridicules Jesus for the exact same reasons the pharisees of His time ridiculed Him- if Jesus was the Son of
God, why didn't He save Himself from the cross? Neither Celsus nor the pharisees understood the spiritual
implications of Jesus' death to atone for sin. Celsus also asks why no judgment came upon the Jews but history
shows shortly after His death Jerusalem was invaded by the Romans, the Jewish temple was destroyed, and the
Jewish people were dispersed for almost 2,000 years!
John the Baptist "If any one predicted to us that the Son of God was to visit mankind, he was one of our
prophets, and the prophet of our God? John, who baptized Jesus, was a Jew."
Celsus confirms Jesus' baptism by John but asserts that John was the only one who actually prophesied His
coming- not the Old Testament Messianic prophecies.
On the Crucifixion: "Jesus accordingly exhibited after His death only the appearance of wounds received on the
cross, and was not in reality so wounded as He is described to have been."
In this statement, Celsus confirms Jesus' death by crucifixion although he claims the only wounds Jesus received
were those inflicted by the crucifixion (thus denying any previous torture had taken place). But not even history
offers Celsus the benefit of a doubt as floggings were the standard form of torture given to victims prior to
crucifixion (See here). Celsus contradicts himself yet again when he later states Jesus was probably never even
crucified but instead had an impostor die in His place!
Edited by Life Upon Death (11/26/09 05:27 AM)
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Life Upon Death
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UCIAN OF SAMOSATA (120 - ~180 A.D.) Lucian was a second century Greek satirist and rhetorician who
scornfully describes his views of early Christianity. Though he ridicules the Christians and their Christ, his
writings confirm Jesus was executed via crucifixion and that He was the founder of Christianity.
"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day- the distinguished personage who introduced their novel
rites, and was crucified on that account... It was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all
brothers from the moment they are converted and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and
live after his laws..." The Death of Peregrinus 11-13
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Life Upon Death
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I could go on but I think I've posted enough to thoroughly refute your claim that Jesus Christ the man never existed(and you did infer it so don't claim you didn't Middleman)
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dr_gonz
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i think they wrote revelations simply as a script to follow 
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11530869 - 11/26/09 07:04 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
i think they wrote revelations simply as a script to follow
I think the Elite are following but thats not why it was written
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twirlingdervish
spicy treat
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Geez, Lifeupondeath and Middleman, you guys totally hijacked my thread with your useless debate that had no relevance to my original post...
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"Reality is only a rorschach ink blot you know."
~Alan Watts
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
twirlingdervish said:
Geez, Lifeupondeath and Middleman, you guys totally hijacked my thread with your useless debate that had no relevance to my original post...
I tried to discuss the scriptures or source that gave you the impression that the anti-christ was the good guy but you didn't seem interested in discussing it
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Life Upon Death
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what exactly is the point of the thread if your not even willing to discuss your opinion?
I guess you'd rather it just died
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c0sm0nautt
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You guys know a lot about the Bible  It is written by people and subject to the same fallibility as every other text, right?
Twirling: To stay with the topic, the AC really doesn't scare me, and isn't that bad. I don't think there is anything that bad... maybe I'm just buzzed
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astralsun.blogspot.com
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#11531391 - 11/26/09 09:26 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
You guys know a lot about the Bible It is written by people and subject to the same fallibility as every other text, right?
Twirling: To stay with the topic, the AC really doesn't scare me, and isn't that bad. I don't think there is anything that bad... maybe I'm just buzzed
well your entitled to your opinion I simply wanted to prove that Jesus did actually exist
you should look into all the prophecies that have been fulfilled from the old testament(relating to more modern times)
just to give you an idea of the accuracy of it
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c0sm0nautt
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I believe Jesus existed. That would have been a story made up by A LOT of people. In a historical context, I'm more sure about Jesus then a lot of other "History".
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astralsun.blogspot.com
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#11531460 - 11/26/09 09:43 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
I believe Jesus existed. That would have been a story made up by A LOT of people. In a historical context, I'm more sure about Jesus then a lot of other "History".
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elementswrath
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how can a non existent being be "good" or "bad".
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: elementswrath]
#11531539 - 11/26/09 10:01 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
elementswrath said:
how can a non existent being be "good" or "bad".
non existent?
check out this commercial for the AC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woqco94sL4U
Share International is a United Nations NGO
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dr_gonz
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why do christians think world unity is such a bad thing?
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11531557 - 11/26/09 10:06 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
why do christians think world unity is such a bad thing?
because its not going to work
the peace they want is through strict control of your every move
we believe in Unity
the Holy Spirit and teachings of Jesus are all about being harmonious and treating even our enemies well
we just realize this is not possible here yet and that some horrible shit is going to go down while the Elites try to force us to conform to their vision
the counterfeit peace and counterfeit Christ
do you really trust the people who have royally fucked up this world thus far to get it right in the end?
I don't
there are many people on this planet who don't want peace and are just waiting for all hell to break loose so they can murder, rape and act like an animal
we will never be able to live in peace with these people because deep down they don't really want peace and theres nothing you can do to change that
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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i think many christians are part of the problem with their egotistical ways
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11531573 - 11/26/09 10:10 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
i think many christians are part of the problem with their egotistical ways
I think many are as well
they are human beings afterall and none of us have it completely right
advocating war as a Christian is completely retarded
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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right, but my issue is if a person says they believe in harmony, love, respect, no greed, equality, etc, etc, and yet they aren't a "christian" they are automatically a pawn of the devil?! i just cant jive with that. im sorry.
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Life Upon Death
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Matthew 7:
21"(R)Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"(S)Many will say to Me on (T)that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; (U)DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Matthew 25:
31"But when (Y)the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then (Z)He will sit on His glorious throne.
32"All the nations will be (AA)gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, (AB)as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33and He will put the sheep (AC)on His right, and the goats (AD)on the left.
34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, (AE)inherit the kingdom prepared for you (AF)from the foundation of the world.
35'For (AG)I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; (AH)I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36(AI)naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you (AJ)visited Me; (AK)I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40"(AL)The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, (AM)to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41"Then He will also say to those on His left, '(AN)Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the (AO)eternal fire which has been prepared for (AP)the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46"These will go away into (AQ)eternal punishment, but the righteous into (AR)eternal life."
2 Corinthians 13:
5(M)Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; (N)examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you (O)fail the test?
6But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11531609 - 11/26/09 10:16 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
right, but my issue is if a person says they believe in harmony, love, respect, no greed, equality, etc, etc, and yet they aren't a "christian" they are automatically a pawn of the devil?! i just cant jive with that. im sorry.
its not about calling yourself a Christian
thats just a label and means nothing in the end
its about believing that God came to earth and suffered an unjust death so you wouldn't have to suffer the consequences of error for eternity
he was made weak so we could be made strong
he became a part of imperfection so that we could be made perfect
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c0sm0nautt
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Can you translate that for those of us that don't speak shotty Hebrew translations? 
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astralsun.blogspot.com
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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can u answer my question though?
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#11531658 - 11/26/09 10:25 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Can you translate that for those of us that don't speak shotty Hebrew translations?
ok Jesus is saying that not everyone who calls themselves a Christian or goes to church is gonna get into heaven cause they don't really get what its about
their heart is not right and thats all that matters
also hes going tell those who get into heaven that we came to his aid when he was weak and most will not realize when that took place
this is because the same Spirit that was Jesus Christ is the Spirit which is collectively in us(the goodness within)
the person we usually ignore
2 Corinthians 3:
17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where (AA)the Spirit of the Lord is, (AB)there is liberty.
18But we all, with unveiled face, (AC)beholding as in a mirror the (AD)glory of the Lord, are being (AE)transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from (AF)the Lord, the Spirit.
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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so someone in china (who's never even heard of christ) who is a beautiful soul and does amazing selfless deeds is really fueled by the power of christ? is this what u are telling me?
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Life Upon Death
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Colossians 1:
25Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,
26that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
EDIT: I cleaned that up for ya
Edited by Life Upon Death (11/26/09 10:30 AM)
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11531678 - 11/26/09 10:28 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
so someone in china (who's never even heard of christ) who is a beautiful soul and does amazing selfless deeds is really fueled by the power of christ? is this what u are telling me?
well this is a hypothetical
I personally believe that all those who should get into heaven will
how that takes place I don't know
I trust that the God of love will make it so
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dr_gonz
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the bible states otherwise, and thereinlies my beef
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11531693 - 11/26/09 10:32 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
the bible states otherwise, and thereinlies my beef
it does not state that
Romans 2:
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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wrong.
according to the fanatical christians if a person "denies christ" then they are done. u could be the most amazing soul in the world but if you dont believe jesus was shot into marys vag by magic, and that the dude died "for our sins" (i still dont get that), then you will burn for eternity.
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pooppoop
Unlocking newdoors.
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11531957 - 11/26/09 11:31 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Anti-Christ should be consider good by Christians as it points to end times where believers are lifted into the sky.
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“Without disturbing anyone, I will choose My moment.”
I have seen the light.
D.A.R.E
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: pooppoop]
#11531976 - 11/26/09 11:35 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
pooppoop said:
Anti-Christ should be consider good by Christians as it points to end times where believers are lifted into the sky.
well hes not good
what hes doing is evil and yet the end result will be good(only because hes destroyed)
not only that but theres a whole lotta suffering thats gonna come first because of this man(and the man that will probably come before him)
theres most likely 2 anti-christ figures
a lot of people will probably believe the first one is the actual anti-christ and the new guy is here to save everyone and is the messiah from all major religions
and yet he'll be even worse then the first
can't be sure about there being 2 though
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dr_gonz
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if god already saw this happening did it already happen? or was his vision just a vision?
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11531988 - 11/26/09 11:38 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
if god already saw this happening did it already happen? or was his vision just a vision?
I honestly don't know
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 41,632
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same with john's "vision"
was he witnessing the ACTUAL EVENTS, or just a hallucination of them? Or is there a difference?
help me out there.
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pooppoop
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
can't be sure about there being 2 though
But guaranteed one?
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“Without disturbing anyone, I will choose My moment.”
I have seen the light.
D.A.R.E
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: pooppoop]
#11532008 - 11/26/09 11:44 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
pooppoop said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
can't be sure about there being 2 though
But guaranteed one?
ya
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Life Upon Death
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Revelation 1:
9I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
11saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."
sounds like he was actually there
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Life Upon Death
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you'd probably have to look into the actual greek words used to know for sure
though this translation is considered to be very literal(and yet readable)
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BiG_StroOnZ
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#11532238 - 11/26/09 12:35 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
I believe Jesus existed. That would have been a story made up by A LOT of people. In a historical context, I'm more sure about Jesus then a lot of other "History".
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 41,632
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: BiG_StroOnZ]
#11532259 - 11/26/09 12:38 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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I believe Santa Claus existed.
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BiG_StroOnZ
Lost White Brother
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11532269 - 11/26/09 12:40 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
I believe Santa Claus existed.
I believe in the Boogy Monster myself, so don't hold your beliefs against you. 
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elementswrath
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: BiG_StroOnZ]
#11533053 - 11/26/09 03:39 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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don't forget unicorns, they exist for sure.
i read them in books and that's how i know 
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Eschalt
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: elementswrath]
#11533092 - 11/26/09 03:51 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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The antichrist is only bad because god made him that way. If I were forced into eternal servitude I would rebel also.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: Eschalt]
#11533111 - 11/26/09 03:57 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Eschalt said:
The antichrist is only bad because god made him that way. If I were forced into eternal servitude I would rebel also.
well he wasn't forced
he had choice and he exercised that
he gave up eternal life for eternal death
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elementswrath
Finger' trippin good
Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,276
Loc: suiciety
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
elementswrath said:
how can a non existent being be "good" or "bad".
non existent?
check out this commercial for the AC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woqco94sL4U
Share International is a United Nations NGO
oooook, what that suppose to say?
that guy is the anti christ?
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: elementswrath]
#11533274 - 11/26/09 04:41 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
elementswrath said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
elementswrath said:
how can a non existent being be "good" or "bad".
non existent?
check out this commercial for the AC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woqco94sL4U
Share International is a United Nations NGO
oooook, what that suppose to say?
that guy is the anti christ?
possibly/probably(false prophet to be exact)
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elementswrath
Finger' trippin good
Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,276
Loc: suiciety
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what is a true prophet?
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: elementswrath]
#11533357 - 11/26/09 05:03 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
elementswrath said:
what is a true prophet?
one who tells the truth and is right
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elementswrath
Finger' trippin good
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how do you know that the Israel prophets where telling the truth?
why are the other prophets of "god" liars? how do you know?
also how do you know that this "false" prophet in the video is a liar?
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: elementswrath]
#11533400 - 11/26/09 05:12 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
elementswrath said:
how do you know that the Israel prophets where telling the truth?
why are the other prophets of "god" liars? how do you know?
also how do you know that this "false" prophet in the video is a liar?
for one thing because their prophecies came true
thats the only real way to judge a prophet
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elementswrath
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really?
what prophesies?
i am very interested.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: elementswrath]
#11533436 - 11/26/09 05:20 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
elementswrath said:
really?
what prophesies?
i am very interested.
heres 10 but theres many more:
1. Israel will prevail over its enemies
Bible passage: Isaiah 41:12-14
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: late 1900s
In Isaiah 41:12-14, the prophet said God would help Israel during times of conflict with enemies (if the people have faith in God). Isaiah said this during a time when the northern kingdom of Israel had already been conquered by the Assyrian Empire. And the southern kingdom, Judah, was about to be conquered by Babylon. (The Bible explains that Israel and Judah lost their independence because so many of the residents had turned to false religions). But, since 1948 when Israel was re-established, Israel has been attacked by much-larger countries. And Israel has prevailed in each of those attacks. This prophecy has found partial fulfillment; Christian scholars believe that a time will come when all of Israel's enemies are destroyed.
Here is Isaiah 41:12-14
Though you search for your enemies, you will not find them. Those who wage war against you will be as nothing at all. For I am the Lord, your God, who takes hold of your right hand and says to you, Do not fear; I will help you. Do not be afraid, O worm Jacob, O little Israel, for I myself will help you," declares the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
2. The ruins of Israel would be rebuilt
Bible passage: Amos 9:11, 13
Written: about 750 BC
Fulfilled: late 1900s
In Amos 9:11, 13, the prophet said that God would restore the land of David. (King David ruled Israel from about 1010 BC to about 970 BC). The land of David - Israel - was conquered and destroyed by the Babylonians, Assyrians and Romans. The land has been in ruins for much of the past 2000 years. The Jews, who had been scattered throughout the world, began to return in large numbers during the past 100 years. Since then, they have been rebuilding many of Israel's ancient cities. Amos also said there would be continuous planting and harvesting. During the past 100 years, the Jews have been using advanced farming and irrigation techniques to turn barren land into productive farmland. Today, Israel is a source of food for many countries.
Here is Amos 9:11, 13
"In that day I will restore David's fallen tent. I will repair its broken places, restore its ruins, and build it as it used to be,'' … "The days are coming," declares the Lord, "when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes. New wine will drip from the mountains and flow from all the hills."
3. Ezekiel prophesied prosperity for modern-day Israel
Bible passage: Ezekiel 36:11
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: late 1900s
In Ezekiel 36:11, the prophet said that there would come a time when Israel would be more prosperous than it was in the past. The Bible describes Israel as being a prosperous nation during the time of King David and King Solomon about 3000 years ago. But, Ezekiel knew a very different Israel. In Ezekiel's day (he lived about 2600 years ago), the northern kingdom of Israel already had been decimated by the Assyrians, and the southern kingdom (called Judah) was being destroyed by the Babylonians. In the centuries that followed these destructions, Jews rebuilt the city of Jerusalem, but their homeland was destroyed again, by the Romans, about 1900 years ago. Since then, a majority of Jews have lived in exile. But during the past 100 years, millions of Jews from around the world moved to Israel and they have been rebuilding the country once again. Today, Israel again is an independent nation, as it was in the days of King David, and it is one of the world's most prosperous countries. In 1999, Israel had the highest per capita Gross Domestic Product of any nearby country, even though the surrounding countries have many oil resources.
Here is Ezekiel 36:11
I will increase the number of men and animals upon you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am the Lord.
4. Trees again would grow in Israel
Bible passage: Isaiah 41:18-20
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: late 1900s
In Isaiah 41:18-20, the prophet's talk of a future restoration of Israel coincides with an occurrence in modern Israel - the construction of a vast irrigation system to improve farming. The lack of available water, including rain, is one reason why Israel had been a desolate, unproductive land during much of the past 2000 years. But, during the 1900s, when many Jews returned to their ancient homeland, they built a network of irrigation systems. And during the past century, more than 200 million trees have been planted in Israel.
Here is Isaiah 41:18-20
I will make rivers flow on barren heights, and springs within the valleys. I will turn the desert into pools of water, and the parched ground into springs. I will put in the desert the cedar and the acacia, the myrtle and the olive. I will set pines in the wasteland, the fir and the cypress together, so that people may see and know, may consider and understand, that the hand of the Lord has done this, that the Holy One of Israel has created it.
5. Isaiah said Israel's fruit would fill the world
Bible passage: Isaiah 27:6
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: late 1900s
In Isaiah 27:6, the prophet said Israel would one day blossom and fill the world with fruit. This prophecy has been at least partially fulfilled, literally and symbolically. Today, the land of Israel, which had been barren for centuries, is a leading producer of agricultural products, exporting food to many countries. This prophecy also has been fulfilled symbolically with the worldwide spread of Christianity. Christianity, which began with Jesus in Israel, now has about 2 billion followers worldwide.
Here is Isaiah 27:6
In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit.
6. Jerusalem would become the world's most important religious site
Bible passage: Micah 4:1
Written: sometime between 750-686 BC
Fulfilled: Today
In Micah 4:1, the prophet said that the Temple mount in Jerusalem would become the focal point of the world. This prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. But, it is interesting to note that Jerusalem is, and has been for centuries, the world's most important religious site. Christians and Jews regard the city as the world's most important, and Christians and Jews comprise about one-third of the world's population. No other city in the world is a religious focal point to as many people.
Here is Micah 4:1
In the last days the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and peoples will stream to it.
7. Egypt would never again rule over other nations
Bible passage: Ezekiel 29:15
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1967, etc.
In Ezekiel 29:15, the prophet says that Egypt would recover from a desolation (perhaps Babylon's attack about 2600 years ago), but that it would never again rule over other nations. Up until the time of Ezekiel, Egypt had been a world power for centuries, dominating many nations, including Israel. But for most of the past 2500 years, Egypt has been controlled by foreign powers, including the Romans, Ottomans and Europeans. Today, Egypt is an independent nation again. In 1948, 1967 and 1973, Egypt tried to dominate Israel but was unsuccessful each time, despite the fact that Egypt is 10 times larger than Israel. Since the time of Ezekiel, Egypt no longer rules over other nations.
Here is Ezekiel 29:15
It will be the lowliest of kingdoms and will never again exalt itself above the other nations. I will make it so weak that it will never again rule over the nations.
8. Zechariah prophesied the Jews return to Jerusalem
Bible passage: Zechariah 8:7-8
Written: between 520 and 518 BC
Fulfilled: 1967, etc.
In Zechariah 8:7-8, the prophet said God would bring the Jews back from the east and the west to their homeland (Israel) and that they would be able to live in the city of Jerusalem again. This prophecy has been fulfilled more than once. About 2600 years ago, Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and took many Jews as captives to Babylon. But many Jews later returned from Babylon. The Jews rebuilt Jerusalem but the city was destroyed about 1900 years ago by the Romans. The Romans killed more than 1 million Jews and forced many more into exile. The Jews did not have control of Jerusalem again until 1967 when the Jews recaptured the city during the Six Day War.
Here is Zechariah 8:7-8
This is what the Lord Almighty says: "I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west. I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God."
9. Israel's deserts will become like the Garden of Eden
Bible passage: Isaiah 51:3
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: Being fulfilled now
In Isaiah 51:3, the prophet said that God will restore Israel and make it a paradise, like the garden of Eden. This foreshadows what is currently happening in Israel. The Jews have been irrigating, cultivating and reconditioning the land during much of the 1900s. Many of the country's swamps, which had been infested with malaria, have been converted into farmland. And water from the Sea of Galilee has been channeled through portions of the deserts, allowing some of the deserts to bloom. Much work remains, but parts of Israel are blooming again. Although it was described as a wasteland as recently as the late 1800s, Israel is now a food source for many countries. And at least 200 million of trees have been planted there during the past century.
Here is Isaiah 51:3
The Lord will surely comfort Zion and will look with compassion on all her ruins; he will make her deserts like Eden, her wastelands like the garden of the Lord. Joy and gladness will be found in her, thanksgiving and the sound of singing.
10. Isaiah foretold of the worldwide return of Jews to Israel
Bible passage: Isaiah 43:5-6
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: late 1900s
In Isaiah 43:5-6, the prophet Isaiah said that the Jews would return to their homeland from the east, the west, the north and the south. Isaiah lived about 2700 years ago. At that time, the Assyrians had forced many Jews in the northern kingdom of Israel into exile. Those Jews were taken to other areas in the Middle East. Then, about 1900 years ago, the Romans destroyed the city of Jerusalem and killed and exiled hundreds of thousands of Jews. Since then, the Jews have been scattered to virtually every country in the world. But, during the past century, millions of Jews have returned to Israel, from the east, the west, the north and the south.
From the east: Many Jews living in the Middle East moved to Israel by the early 1900s.
From the west: During mid-1900s, hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the West (Europe and the United States) began moving to Israel.
From the north: The former Soviet Union (Russia) is north of Israel. It refused to allow its Jewish residents to move to Israel. But, after years of pressure from other countries, Russia finally began to allow Jews to return to Israel during the 1980s. So far, hundreds of thousands of Russian Jews have moved to Israel.
From the south: Ethiopia, which is south of Israel, also refused to allow its Jews to return to Israel. But, in 1985, Israel struck a deal with Ethiopia's communist government to allow the Jews of Ethiopia to move to Israel. On the weekend of May 25, 1991, 14,500 Ethiopian Jews were airlifted to Israel.
Isaiah's prophecy was also correct in saying that the north (Russia) and the south (Ethiopia) would have to be persuaded to give up their Jews. Many countries pressured Russia for years before it began to allow its Jews to leave. And Ethiopia had to be paid a ransom to allow its Jews to leave.
Isaiah's prophecy was also correct in saying that the Jews would return "from the ends of the earth," and Isaiah said that many centuries before the Jews had been scattered to the ends of the earth. During the past 100 years, Jews living as far east as China, as far west as the West Coast of the United States, as far north as Scandinavia, and as far south as South Africa, have moved to Israel.
Here is Isaiah 43:5-6
"Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, `Give them up!' and to the south, `Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth…
even Christ was prophecied and since we agree that he actually existed then you have to accept that these prophecies which we know for a fact were written before the fact came true
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NuklearPsilo
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Satan is so good at deceiving and confusing humans that its funny.
Edited by NuklearPsilo (11/26/09 09:13 PM)
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elementswrath
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: NuklearPsilo]
#11534652 - 11/26/09 09:14 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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 oh the irony!
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: NuklearPsilo]
#11536026 - 11/27/09 05:54 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
NuklearPsilo said:
Satan is so good at deceiving and confusing humans that its funny.
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BiG_StroOnZ
Lost White Brother
Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 3,061
Loc: New Jersey
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: elementswrath]
#11537081 - 11/27/09 11:33 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
NuklearPsilo said:
Satan is so good at deceiving and confusing humans that its funny.
Satan isn't an actual being or person, it's an anthropomorphism just like in every other religion and ancient civilization...
grow up already people...
Quote:
elementswrath said:
don't forget unicorns, they exist for sure.
i read them in books and that's how i know
lol 
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 41,632
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: BiG_StroOnZ]
#11537090 - 11/27/09 11:34 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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twirlingdervish
spicy treat
Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 274
Loc: Podunk, KY
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
dr_gonz said:
why do christians think world unity is such a bad thing?
because its not going to work
the peace they want is through strict control of your every move
we believe in Unity
the Holy Spirit and teachings of Jesus are all about being harmonious and treating even our enemies well
we just realize this is not possible here yet and that some horrible shit is going to go down while the Elites try to force us to conform to their vision
the counterfeit peace and counterfeit Christ
do you really trust the people who have royally fucked up this world thus far to get it right in the end?
I don't
there are many people on this planet who don't want peace and are just waiting for all hell to break loose so they can murder, rape and act like an animal
we will never be able to live in peace with these people because deep down they don't really want peace and theres nothing you can do to change that
Your perpetuation of the myth that humans are born with original sin, and HAVE to sin, HAVE to be fallible is the most dangerous christian ideal I can imagine...
Let's all walk around expecting less then the best from ourselves, then asking an avatar who left his carnal body behind two-thousand year ago to forgive us for transgressions, thus removing all responsibility and accountability for the fucked up things we do.
I have come to believe through personal experience, that by admiting that I was PERSONALLY responsible for all of my own behaviors, I was able to then own them and take control of them, replacing them with more suitable actions.
Also, I have noticed that the most "royally fucked up" ones are sometimes the ones who make the most progress spiritually speaking. After all that is the crowd that Jesus himself came for right??
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"Reality is only a rorschach ink blot you know."
~Alan Watts
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
twirlingdervish said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
dr_gonz said:
why do christians think world unity is such a bad thing?
because its not going to work
the peace they want is through strict control of your every move
we believe in Unity
the Holy Spirit and teachings of Jesus are all about being harmonious and treating even our enemies well
we just realize this is not possible here yet and that some horrible shit is going to go down while the Elites try to force us to conform to their vision
the counterfeit peace and counterfeit Christ
do you really trust the people who have royally fucked up this world thus far to get it right in the end?
I don't
there are many people on this planet who don't want peace and are just waiting for all hell to break loose so they can murder, rape and act like an animal
we will never be able to live in peace with these people because deep down they don't really want peace and theres nothing you can do to change that
Your perpetuation of the myth that humans are born with original sin, and HAVE to sin, HAVE to be fallible is the most dangerous christian ideal I can imagine...
Let's all walk around expecting less then the best from ourselves, then asking an avatar who left his carnal body behind two-thousand year ago to forgive us for transgressions, thus removing all responsibility and accountability for the fucked up things we do.
I have come to believe through personal experience, that by admiting that I was PERSONALLY responsible for all of my own behaviors, I was able to then own them and take control of them, replacing them with more suitable actions.
Also, I have noticed that the most "royally fucked up" ones are sometimes the ones who make the most progress spiritually speaking. After all that is the crowd that Jesus himself came for right??
I don't believe we have to sin
I'm very apposed to the doctrine of Calvinism which speaks of original sin and the inability to control ourselves
I agree that this is just an excuse and have argued fervently with them about it
I believe we are capable of so much
but for me personally, accepting that Jesus died for me is a way too move on from past mistakes(and he has given us the strength we need to face future temptations while knowing even if we screw up he will complete what he began in us)
the scriptures are very clear that we are to strive to be perfect even if we are incapable
besides I'm under the impression that humanity will overcome sin(but we still needed the sacrifice for past mistakes so that we could be made perfect)
with that said I still have to accept that what the scriptures say about our future is true and that some will never get it even if they are capable(I believe everyone is capable)
I also believe that we will be perfected through this time of great suffering which is about to come upon our world
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twirlingdervish
spicy treat
Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 274
Loc: Podunk, KY
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Holy CRap!! Could it be?? A conscious, reasonable Christian?
Nice to meet you Life Upon Death.
Let me apologize for putting my foot in my mouth.
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"Reality is only a rorschach ink blot you know."
~Alan Watts
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
twirlingdervish said:
Holy CRap!! Could it be?? A conscious, reasonable Christian?
Nice to meet you Life Upon Death.
Let me apologize for putting my foot in my mouth.
no need to apologize
nice to meet you too 
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Life Upon Death
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the man who first put forth the Original Sin and "Total Depravity" doctrine was John Calvin
he was a brutal murderous dictator so its no surprise that he was looking for a way to justify his actions
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
but for me personally, accepting that Jesus died for me is a way too move on from past mistakes(and he has given us the strength we need to face future temptations while knowing even if we screw up he will complete what he began in us)
Belief in Jesus as an instrument of self-forgiveness is a great magickal tool indeed.
Your Christian perspective is a breath of fresh air compared to the fundamentalists we typically see around here, BTW.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: deCypher]
#11537346 - 11/27/09 12:22 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
but for me personally, accepting that Jesus died for me is a way too move on from past mistakes(and he has given us the strength we need to face future temptations while knowing even if we screw up he will complete what he began in us)
Belief in Jesus as an instrument of self-forgiveness is a great magickal tool indeed.
Your Christian perspective is a breath of fresh air compared to the fundamentalists we typically see around here, BTW.
thanks
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b0red5tiff
NWO Disinformation Agent
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 17,627
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the antichrist is a symbolic state of mind:
'The Beast' is that aspect of our being which sees *value* only in material things and tramples spiritual values such as honesty and justice underfoot in its ruthless pursuit of personal wealth and power. 'The Beast' seeks to learn only what will give it an advantage over others and uses its knowledge of the powers of the animal instincts in order to stir up fear in others to turn them violently against each other, the better to control them and profit from the destruction. It hordes what knowledge it gains to empower itself at others' expense. 'The Beast' hardens its heart against the experience of real love because it must always be "in control" and so is not willing to make itself vulnerable to another. It is only willing to enter into relationships in which it is able to exercise unequal power over the other and use the relationship to serve its own needs without having to consider the needs of the other.
'The Beast' is unable to conceive of the possibility of a greater satisfaction in life than the accumulation of money and power and being able to use these to take unfair advantage of those with less money and power (which it calls "winning"). Because of this it will never find the exit from the dead-end ego-maze of the lower mind. 'The Beast', confined to the material world below the Veil, sees all others as either 'enemies' or rivals to be destroyed or victims or 'inferiors' who must be weakened and subjugated so that their existence serves only to increase the wealth and power of 'The Beast'.
As we each express our individual 'Beast' consciousness in the world, it is the sum total of all of this lower ego/mind energy which *creates* and *empowers* 'Babylon the Great', the collective 'Beast consciousness'. Any political, religious or social institution which could possibly be identified by the label 'Babylon' as it is used in the Book of Revelations can only exist by gaining its power from the collective 'Beast' consciousness of all of us who continue to 'worship' the accumulation of wealth and power above truth, justice, and peace -- who continue to 'worship Babylon'.
The fact that every political, religious and social institution which reflects this 'Babylon' lower ego/mind consciousness in its values, is now self-destructing from its own excess of negativity is a reflection of the fact that the time is now ripe for the promise of the Age of Aquarius to begin to bloom, the age in which the spiritual energy of the era will empower the understanding and consciousness of individual "common people" like us. It is finally time for each one of us to begin to realize that blaming "the powers that be", this cabal of corporations or that religious group or the other political ideology for all that is evil in the world, is a self-defeating mindset.
It is *not possible* to defeat the Beast in an external way "out there" in the world because "Socialists" will see the powers of the Beast being exercised by "Fascists" (and vice versa), "Republicans" will see it embodied in the ideas and policies of "Democrats" (and vice versa), and many religions will see 'the Beast' at work only within *other* religions (or in those without religion) while believing themselves to be immune from such corruption (and vice versa). The end result, as history shows us, is a combination of self-righteousness, confusion, "shadow-boxing" and denial which only empowers 'the Beast' even more.
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Trading random Cubensis prints for stuff, PM me!
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twirlingdervish
spicy treat
Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 274
Loc: Podunk, KY
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: b0red5tiff]
#11537704 - 11/27/09 01:28 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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The beast might be something entirely different tan the antichrist though...
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"Reality is only a rorschach ink blot you know."
~Alan Watts
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b0red5tiff
NWO Disinformation Agent
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 17,627
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everything may be different than something
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Trading random Cubensis prints for stuff, PM me!
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 41,632
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: b0red5tiff]
#11537840 - 11/27/09 01:46 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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this calls for a you tube celebration
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b0red5tiff
NWO Disinformation Agent
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 17,627
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11537892 - 11/27/09 01:54 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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i'll leave linking inane and meaningless videos to spam til death
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Trading random Cubensis prints for stuff, PM me!
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
twirlingdervish said:
The beast might be something entirely different tan the antichrist though...
I think its the league of secret societies and their NWO
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Life Upon Death
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 41,632
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fuck yes! holy fuck yes
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Life Upon Death
Stranger
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11537937 - 11/27/09 02:02 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
fuck yes! holy fuck yes
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burkspatrick
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? or is it an original christian teaching? [Re: Mr. Middle]
#11539253 - 11/27/09 05:52 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said:
I only disagree that there is as much 'evidence' for Jesus than anyone else, there is much more evidence for many lowly Roman soldiers.
Once the common principles of religions are understood, history becomes a moot point.
BTW, the editors of the scriptures are not to be trusted, they couldn't even rope a camel.
The only way to correctly understand Xtianity is to learn Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek while reading the original texts.
It depends on what time period that you learned hebrew,greek, and aramaic. If you where in the middle ages and wanted to learn these you would have to have become a priest. During modern times it's a little easier to look at the original languages outside of the church. I'm beggining to think maybe it was the church who put the antichrist prophecies in the texts. For instance the verse that speaks about a falling away. If people quit going to church who's power would be diminished. I don't think it would be god's do you?
Also it's my understanding at the time of christ in Israel there was a strong messianic wave and that there was several contemporaries of Jesus before and after him who claimed to be the messiah. Including many kabbalistic mystics. But I don't remember any of them ever mentioning the aniti-christ. But many of them did say that they where the christ. I don't think the Jesus ever mentions the anti-christ in the gospels. The only mentioning of the anti-christ is the Apostle John who mentions it in his books and Revelation. I don't think the apostle Paul ever makes a mention of the anti-christ.
So that begs the question then was this doctrine created by the catholic church or was it something that Apostle John created and added. did Jesus ever,ever mentioned it to any of the diciples. The only thing that Jesus ever said was that many would come in his name, but he never adds the anti-prefix. You should read the book of Thomas it sheds some light on what Jesus actually preached.
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burkspatrick
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Also in the Gospels what group was Jesus always preaching on,jumping on,saying that they where white-washed tombs,etc. The pharisees. maybe even the Sadducee's. Translation the spiritual elite. Or put it another way the leaders of the Synagogues or their version of the church. Jesus always went out of his way to preach to the common man. They even accused him of being a drunk. Think about. But don't think to hard. Read the non-canonical books.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? or is it an original christian teaching? [Re: burkspatrick]
#11540987 - 11/28/09 01:23 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
burkspatrick said:
Quote:
Middleman said:
I only disagree that there is as much 'evidence' for Jesus than anyone else, there is much more evidence for many lowly Roman soldiers.
Once the common principles of religions are understood, history becomes a moot point.
BTW, the editors of the scriptures are not to be trusted, they couldn't even rope a camel.
The only way to correctly understand Xtianity is to learn Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek while reading the original texts.
It depends on what time period that you learned hebrew,greek, and aramaic. If you where in the middle ages and wanted to learn these you would have to have become a priest. During modern times it's a little easier to look at the original languages outside of the church. I'm beggining to think maybe it was the church who put the antichrist prophecies in the texts. For instance the verse that speaks about a falling away. If people quit going to church who's power would be diminished. I don't think it would be god's do you?
Also it's my understanding at the time of christ in Israel there was a strong messianic wave and that there was several contemporaries of Jesus before and after him who claimed to be the messiah. Including many kabbalistic mystics. But I don't remember any of them ever mentioning the aniti-christ. But many of them did say that they where the christ. I don't think the Jesus ever mentions the anti-christ in the gospels. The only mentioning of the anti-christ is the Apostle John who mentions it in his books and Revelation. I don't think the apostle Paul ever makes a mention of the anti-christ.
So that begs the question then was this doctrine created by the catholic church or was it something that Apostle John created and added. did Jesus ever,ever mentioned it to any of the diciples. The only thing that Jesus ever said was that many would come in his name, but he never adds the anti-prefix. You should read the book of Thomas it sheds some light on what Jesus actually preached.
2 Thessalonians 2(New Testament):
1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
Daniel 11(Old Testament):
35"Some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine, purge and make them pure until the end time; because it is still to come at the appointed time.
36"Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.
37"He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all.
38"But instead he will honor a god of fortresses, a god whom his fathers did not know; he will honor him with gold, silver, costly stones and treasures.
39"He will take action against the strongest of fortresses with the help of a foreign god; he will give great honor to those who acknowledge him and will cause them to rule over the many, and will parcel out land for a price.
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
burkspatrick said:
Also in the Gospels what group was Jesus always preaching on,jumping on,saying that they where white-washed tombs,etc. The pharisees. maybe even the Sadducee's. Translation the spiritual elite. Or put it another way the leaders of the Synagogues or their version of the church. Jesus always went out of his way to preach to the common man. They even accused him of being a drunk. Think about. But don't think to hard. Read the non-canonical books.
Jesus still accepted the scriptures even though he rejected the so called "spiritual Elite"
there are some good non Canonical books
the book of Enoch, 2 Esdras and few others
but stay away from the fake Gnostic texts such as the Gosepl of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary
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deCypher
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The Gnostic interpretation rings true to me... what's so fake about it?
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
deCypher said:
The Gnostic interpretation rings true to me... what's so fake about it?
what about it rings true?
Jesus mocks the disciples when they are unable to understand at one point
Mary Magdalene is also mentioned in the Gospel of Mary as being the one Jesus loved the most
Jesus loved us all equally so that right there is a dead giveaway that something is off
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Life Upon Death
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for the record it was NOT the catholic church who removed books from the bible
it was the reformers(mostly Martin Luther as far as I know)
Revelations and the book of Jude were almost removed as well
Revelations actually warns about this:
Revelation 22:
10And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
11"Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."
12"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
16"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come " And let the one who hears say, "Come" And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly " Amen Come, Lord Jesus.
21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Edited by Life Upon Death (11/28/09 02:00 AM)
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Life Upon Death
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heres some more information on the Gnostic Texts, I haven't dived into this topic much yet but I'd be willing to be I will be able to correlate what is being said here with other evidence(guess we'll find out):
What are the Gnostic gospels?
Gnostic gospels
Question: "What are the Gnostic gospels?"
Answer: The Gnostic gospels are writings by early "Christian" Gnostics. After the first century of Christianity, two primary divisions developed - the orthodox and the Gnostics. The orthodox Christians held to books we now have in the Bible and to what is today considered orthodox theology. The Gnostic Christians, if they can truly be described as Christians, held a distinctly different view of the Bible, of Jesus Christ, of salvation, and of virtually every other major Christian doctrine. However, they did not have any writings by the Apostles to give legitimacy to their beliefs.
That is why and how the Gnostic gospels were created. The Gnostics fraudulently attached the names of famous Christians to their writings, such as the gospel of Thomas, the gospel of Philip, the gospel of Mary, etc. The discovery of the Nag Hammadi library in northern Egypt in 1945 represented a major discovery of Gnostic gospels. These Gnostic gospels are often pointed to as supposed "lost books of the Bible."
So, what are we to make of the Gnostic gospels? Should some or all of them be in the Bible? No, they should not. First, as pointed out above, the Gnostic gospels are forgeries, fraudulently written in the names of the Apostles in order to give them a legitimacy in the early church. Thankfully, the early church fathers were nearly unanimous in recognizing the Gnostic gospels as promoting false teachings about virtually every key Christian doctrine. There are countless contradictions between the Gnostic gospels and the true Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The Gnostic gospels can be a good source for the study of early Christian heresies, but they should be rejected outright as not belonging in the Bible and not representing the genuine Christian faith.
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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i am the anti christ.
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Life Upon Death
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"First of all forget the Roman Catholic Church, though they did pervert a lot of biblical teaching they are not responsible for deciding which books to include in the Bible. In fact this was decided a long time before the then Bishop of Rome, in a fit of peek, split from the Orthodox Church and declared himself Pope, founding the Roman Church in the 11th Century.
The is nothing sinister in the exclusion of the, so called, gnostic Gospels, nor is there a conspiracy to hide the truth. Rather examination of these documents by scholars found good reasons, historical or textural not to include them. Despite what you may hear elsewhere, many of these other gospels are written later than those included. The canonical gospels, Matthew, Mark and Luke, support and confirm each other.
Generally Mark is held to be the oldest Gospel at around 70AD"
"This creation story is why these texts should not be called Christian. In Judaism and Christianity, God creates directly and that creation is good from the start. The Gnostic creation story denies this theological starting point. No Christian accepting the creation as it was beleived in Judaism would see the Gnostic story as true or credible. Another way to say this is that Gnostic trexts were both anti-Christian and anti-Jewish. This feature also explains why such texts never were seriously considered as candidates for the canon of the New Testament."
I actually wanted to mention this before
Gnosticism generally believes that the God of Abraham who created the world is evil and the snake in the garden of Eden was actually our liberator attempting to set us free
so to say that these texts are synchronous with the other Christian writings is flat out ridiculous
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11541662 - 11/28/09 08:06 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
i am the anti christ.
yep you are
1 John 4:
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
4You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Gnostics don't believe Jesus came in the flesh btw(they believe He was some type of metaphysical illusion)
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Life Upon Death
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"Following the apostles’ teaching, the early church leaders unanimously condemned the Gnostics as a cult. Church father Irenaeus, writing 140 years before the Council of Nicaea, confirmed that the Gnostics were condemned by the church as heretics. He also rejected their “gospels.” But, referring to the four New Testament Gospels, he said, “It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are.” 2
Christian theologian Origen wrote this in the early third century, more than a hundred years before Nicaea:
I know a certain gospel which is called “The Gospel according to Thomas” and a “Gospel according to Matthias,” and many others have we read—lest we should in any way be considered ignorant because of those who imagine they possess some knowledge if they are acquainted with these.
Nevertheless, among all these we have approved solely what the church has recognized, which is that only four gospels should be accepted.3
"
"The Gnostic gospels are dated about 110 to 300 years after Christ, and no credible scholar believes any of them could have been written by their namesakes. In James M. Robinson’s comprehensive The Nag Hammadi Library, we learn that the Gnostic gospels were written by “largely unrelated and anonymous authors.”4
New Testament scholar Norman Geisler writes, “The Gnostic writings were not written by the apostles, but by men in the second century (and later) pretending to use apostolic authority to advance their own teachings. Today we call this fraud and forgery.”5"
so the scholars reject these writings as being Genuine Christianity
I've seen enough but if anyone attempts to challenge that I will break out the in depth info so tread carefully 
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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i have a feeling god is one of those cats who pretends to listen, but as we speak to him he's really just nodding along... what a selfish old bastard.
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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when do u think i should raise myself from the dead?
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11541714 - 11/28/09 08:18 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
i have a feeling god is one of those cats who pretends to listen, but as we speak to him he's really just nodding along... what a selfish old bastard.
what gives you that impression?
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dr_gonz
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because he "knows it all", so anything we say he will brush right off his shoulders. what a conceited fuck.
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Life Upon Death
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what if hes intimately involved in every aspect of every thought you have
always trying to do whats truly best for you
but in the end letting you make up your own mind
do you understand how terribly difficult that would be for a being of pure love?
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 41,632
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You're such an inspiration
For the ways that I will
Never, ever choose to be
Oh so many ways for me to show you
How your savior has abandoned you
Fuck your God, your Lord, your Christ
He did this, took all you had and
Left you this way, still you pray, never stray, never
Taste of the fruit, never thought to question "Why?"
It's not like you killed someone
It's not like you drove a hateful spear into his side
Praise the one who left you broken down and paralyzed
He did it all for you...
He did it all for you...
Oh so many ways for me to show you
How your dogma has abandoned you
Pray to your Christ, to your God
Never taste of the fruit, never stray, never break, never
Choke on a lie even though he's the one who
Did this to you, you never thought to question "Why?"
It's not like you killed someone
It's not like you drove a spiteful spear into his side
Talk to Jesus Christ as if he knows the reasons why
He did it all for you...
He did it all for you...
He did it all for you...
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dr_gonz
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
what if hes intimately involved in every aspect of every thought you have
always trying to do whats truly best for you
but in the end letting you make up your own mind
do you understand how terribly difficult that would be for a being of pure love?
there is no god of love in this world. why cant u see that?
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11541731 - 11/28/09 08:22 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
because he "knows it all", so anything we say he will brush right off his shoulders. what a conceited fuck.
actually he takes anything from the heart very seriously
and hes not conceited, hes honest
when he says "I'm am the Lord" HE MEANS IT!
He is the epitome of all existence, all that is good and right, reliant on nothing but Himself
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Mr. Middle
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11541732 - 11/28/09 08:22 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Life Upon Death
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you think I was born into Christianity?
well I sorta was but my family stopped going to church very early on and my dad started teaching us that their was no God
I was an atheist, then I evolved into Pagan-esque thinking after using psychedelics and after a long hard kick in the ass I finally started to really understand what was going on
you are still clueless
time to move on from your futile thinking I would think:
2 Corinthians 4:
2but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
do you know who the god of this world is? do you really understand whos in control of society?
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Life Upon Death
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Matthew 4:
8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
9and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me."
10Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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I'm not trying to be a cock, but I'm fairly certain I know more about bible thumping christian beliefs than yourself. the difference is I am able to view them objectively now.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11541782 - 11/28/09 08:37 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
I'm not trying to be a cock, but I'm fairly certain I know more about bible thumping christian beliefs than yourself. the difference is I am able to view them objectively now.
I guarantee you don't
I reject many "Christian" doctrines stemming from the Catholic Church as well as protestant
I argued with probably every denomination at one point
but Calvinism was the doctrine that REALLY boiled my blood
many of those people are not Christians(and I Found out later that some of these pricks I had been debating with were indeed Masons)
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dr_gonz
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I'm not braggin, young man. I'm simply stating that I was heavily brainwashed with the shit for 17 years.
what "denomination" was your christ?
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11541796 - 11/28/09 08:40 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
I'm not braggin, young man. I'm simply stating that I was heavily brainwashed with the shit for 17 years.
what "denomination" was your christ?
I do not affiliate myself with any of them
they all get some things right and many things wrong
the truth lies between the lines as usual
thats not to say I know the absolute truth but I do know I understand it better than most
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dr_gonz
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if it's "so easy" to grasp why do the christians fight over about who's right and wrong rather than just love as their christ preached?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
The Gnostic interpretation rings true to me... what's so fake about it?
what about it rings true?
Well, I don't necessarily buy into the existence of an evil demiurge who has trapped us in the material world, but the mysticism of the Gospel of Thomas does resonate with me... I believe that with enough self-knowledge or gnosis we can experience our inherent divinity.
The Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty, and it is you who are that poverty.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11541828 - 11/28/09 08:46 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
I'm not braggin, young man. I'm simply stating that I was heavily brainwashed with the shit for 17 years.
what "denomination" was your christ?
obviously I don't agree with brainwashing but this isn't as cut and dry and you may like it to be
if parents did not pass down their beliefs to their children then it would have died
and yet you get biased misinformation mixed in with the truth this way not to mention a will to rebel from domineering parents and everything they stand for
people aren't perfect and often times parents don't realize that aspects of what they believe is not true so its hard to say
in some ways its good to teach your children what you believe and yet it can encourage rebellion from that as well
in the end we are ALL being brainwashed in one way or another
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
The Gnostic interpretation rings true to me... what's so fake about it?
what about it rings true?
Well, I don't necessarily buy into the existence of an evil demiurge who has trapped us in the material world, but the mysticism of the Gospel of Thomas does resonate with me... I believe that with enough self-knowledge or gnosis we can experience our inherent divinity.
The Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty, and it is you who are that poverty.
well the truth is often inbetween the lines but some use truth in order to manipulate as well
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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woQuote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
The Gnostic interpretation rings true to me... what's so fake about it?
what about it rings true?
Well, I don't necessarily buy into the existence of an evil demiurge who has trapped us in the material world, but the mysticism of the Gospel of Thomas does resonate with me... I believe that with enough self-knowledge or gnosis we can experience our inherent divinity.
The Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty, and it is you who are that poverty.
i agree with that passage from the gospel of thomas.
hmmmm, i wonder why they removed it
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11541852 - 11/28/09 08:49 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
if it's "so easy" to grasp why do the christians fight over about who's right and wrong rather than just love as their christ preached?
well theres a time and place for everything
there is no single answer for anything really
this is part of the reason the bible can seem contradictary at times
because depending on the situation the right response can be completely different from another occasion
you kinda gotta feel it out as you and just try to do what you think is right
its a narrow path as it is written
I like to think of it as tight rope walking
you sway back and forth and even fall right off the rope sometimes, but luckily we have a safety net and can get right back up and try again
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11541854 - 11/28/09 08:50 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
woQuote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
The Gnostic interpretation rings true to me... what's so fake about it?
what about it rings true?
Well, I don't necessarily buy into the existence of an evil demiurge who has trapped us in the material world, but the mysticism of the Gospel of Thomas does resonate with me... I believe that with enough self-knowledge or gnosis we can experience our inherent divinity.
The Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty, and it is you who are that poverty.
i agree with that passage from the gospel of thomas.
hmmmm, i wonder why they removed it
as I just showed you, it was never a part of the Christian gospels
it was written well after the fact and rejected by the Church fathers
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11541857 - 11/28/09 08:51 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
as I just showed you, it was never a part of the Christian gospels
it was written well after the fact and rejected by the Church fathers
Yes, and probably for the reason that it took away from the power of the Catholic Church as a mediator between humanity and God. Honestly I think the Church quickly corrupted the teachings of Jesus in order to maintain itself as a powerful institution.
Quote:
How then if they are forced to admit that we are all equally priests, as many of us as are baptized, and by this way we truly are; while to them is committed only the Ministry (ministerium Predigtamt) and consented to by us (nostro consensu)? If they recognize this they would know that they have no right to exercise power over us (ius imperii, in what has not been committed to them) except insofar as we may have granted it to them, for thus it says in 1 Peter 2, "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a priestly kingdom." In this way we are all priests, as many of us as are Christians. There are indeed priests whom we call ministers. They are chosen from among us, and who do everything in our name. That is a priesthood which is nothing else than the Ministry. Thus 1 Corinthians 4:1: "No one should regard us as anything else than ministers of Christ and dispensers of the mysteries of God."
--Martin Luther
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Honestly I think the Church quickly corrupted the teachings of Jesus in order to maintain itself as a powerful institution. Humanity does not need a mediator between it and God.
Quote:
How then if they are forced to admit that we are all equally priests, as many of us as are baptized, and by this way we truly are; while to them is committed only the Ministry (ministerium Predigtamt) and consented to by us (nostro consensu)? If they recognize this they would know that they have no right to exercise power over us (ius imperii, in what has not been committed to them) except insofar as we may have granted it to them, for thus it says in 1 Peter 2, "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a priestly kingdom." In this way we are all priests, as many of us as are Christians. There are indeed priests whom we call ministers. They are chosen from among us, and who do everything in our name. That is a priesthood which is nothing else than the Ministry. Thus 1 Corinthians 4:1: "No one should regard us as anything else than ministers of Christ and dispensers of the mysteries of God."
--Martin Luther
oh I agree(well I partly agree, I don't believe the Gnostic Gospels did any good cause they were forgery's meant for converting Christians into Gnostic beliefs, they were right to reject them)
the doctrine of indulgences put forth by the Catholic Church was a disgrace
gimme a sec I'm gonna grab a tea but I wanna show you a prophecy from a book called "the epistle of the Apostles"
Edited by Life Upon Death (11/28/09 09:14 AM)
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Life Upon Death
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29 But all they that have offended against my commandments and have taught other doctrine, (perverting) the Scripture and adding thereto, striving after their own glory, and that teach with other words them that believe on me in uprightness, ie they make them fall thereby, shall receive everlasting punishment. We said unto him: Lord, shall there then be teaching by others, diverse from that which thou hast spoken unto us? He said unto us: It must needs be, that the evil and the good may be made manifest; and the judgement shall be manifest upon them that do these things, and according to their works shall they be judged and shall be delivered unto death.
37 Then said we unto him: Lord, teach us what shall come to pass thereafter? And he answered us: In those years and days shall war be kindled upon war; the four ends of the earth shall be in commotion and fight against each other. Thereafter shall be quakings of clouds (or, clouds of locusts), darkness, and dearth, and persecutions of them that believe on me and against the elect. Thereupon shall come doubt and strife and transgressions against one another. And there shall be many that believe on my name and yet follow after evil and spread vain doctrine. And men shall follow after them and their riches, and be subject unto their pride, and lust for drink, and bribery, and there shall be respect of persons among them.
And he said unto us: There shall come forth another doctrine, and a confusion, and because they shall strive after their own advancement, they shall bring forth an unprofitable doctrine. And therein shall be a deadly corruption (of uncleanness), and they shall teach it, and shall turn away them that believe on me from my commandments and cut them off from eternal life. But woe unto them that falsify this my word and commandment, and draw away them that hearken to them from the life of the doctrine and separate themselves from the commandment of life: for together with them they shall come into everlasting judgement.
I believe that doctrine was the doctrine of indulgences which led to the confusion of the reformation
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/apocrypha_nt/episaps.htm
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twirlingdervish
spicy treat
Registered: 11/21/09
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Hijacked again...
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"Reality is only a rorschach ink blot you know."
~Alan Watts
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 41,632
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you honestly believe that the bible as it stands now is what a god would want for his people? the shit has been watered down, edited, and finagled for their own purposes. it's what the church wants - keep that in mind.
it's for their benefit, not god's.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11542588 - 11/28/09 11:17 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
you honestly believe that the bible as it stands now is what a god would want for his people? the shit has been watered down, edited, and finagled for their own purposes. it's what the church wants - keep that in mind.
it's for their benefit, not god's.
proof?
its been translated and translations aren't perfect
yes I believe the bible as it stands is exactly what God wants for us
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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wow. you're a real man of faith, not in god, but in the church, because you're reading their interpretations of what they deemed suitable for the masses.
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Edited by dr_gonz (11/28/09 11:28 AM)
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
twirlingdervish said:
Hijacked again...
you barely even comment
threads evolve and tend to branch off in different directions relating indirectly to the topic
if you really want to discuss the prospect of the AC being good then discuss it!
otherwise give it a rest
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11542649 - 11/28/09 11:30 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
wow. you're a real man of faith, not in god, but in the church, because your reading their interpretations of what they deemed suitable for the masses.
what church?
how am I trusting in their interpretations when I've already demonstrated that I do not adhere to any doctrines, and decide for myself what to believe and what not to believe
I believe that God ensured that the bible would remain in tact in the sense that what is there is exactly what is needed right now and its a precise translation of the original text
as I have shown I do believe books exist outside of the bible which are genuinely inspired but are not a necessity for the average person
the book as it stands is an unedited translation of the core aspects of the original texts
most books outside of the bible which are inspired are in the pseudepigrapha/Apocrypha category meaning they were mostly meant at one point in time for the more spiritually adept who were responsible enough to possess the information(because outside sources sometimes capitalize on concepts in attempts to deceive)
these books are sometimes(like in the case of Enoch) more detail oriented and very hard to understand for the average person
its not that God wanted them to be removed but He already realized they would be and incorporated that into what he communicated to us
we are now living in a time when many people are capable of understanding and integrating these books into their overall understanding of scripture and with the internet this is possible so those who are willing to venture outside the 66 books and read these books for greater understanding are able to do so
but they run of the risk of believing in some of the false books(Gnostic texts) which are lumped together into the same category
so its not for everyone
the average person can rest assured that the core scripture is kept in tact within the Canon
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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hmmm, which variation of the bible? last i checked there were many many versions.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11542666 - 11/28/09 11:34 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
hmmm, which variation of the bible? last i checked there were many many versions.
I like the New American Standard Bible because its known to be a very literal yet readable translation
The New American Standard Bible is widely regarded as the most literally translated of 20th-century English Bible translations.[3] According to the NASB's preface, the translators had a "Fourfold Aim" in this work:
1. These publications shall be true to the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.
2. They shall be grammatically correct.
3. They shall be understandable.
4. They shall give the Lord Jesus Christ His proper place, the place which the Word gives Him; therefore, no work will ever be personalized.
As its name implies, the NASB is a revision of the American Standard Version of 1901. This translation was begun as an alternative to the Revised Standard Version (1946–1952/1971), itself a revision of the ASV, but considered by many to be theologically liberal. Using the ASV as its English base, the NASB's translators revised the ASV as literally as possible.
The Hebrew text used for this translation was the third edition of Rudolf Kittel's Biblia Hebraica, as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia was consulted for the 1995 revision. For Greek, Eberhard Nestle's Novum Testamentum Graece was used; the 23rd edition in the 1971 original, and the 26th in the 1995 revision.
The Open Bible edition of the New American Standard Bible in the Church of Saint Mary, an Episcopalian Church in Sagada, Mountain Province, Mountain Province, Philippines.
Seeing the need for a literal, modern translation of the English Bible, the translators sought to produce a contemporary English Bible while maintaining a word-for-word translation style. In cases where word-for-word literalness was determined to be unacceptable for modern readers, changes were made in the direction of more current idioms. In such instances, the more literal renderings were indicated in footnotes.
The greatest perceived strength of the NASB is its reliability and fidelity to the original languages, which, along with other literal translations, also allows for ambiguities in the text's meaning. Its corresponding weakness is that its readability and literary style sometimes prove confusing to the average reader. In addition, its printing of verses as individual units instead of paragraphs makes the text appear fragmented (though more recent editions are available in paragraph format).
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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i just can't buy it, man. im sorry. im not being disrespectful, but i can't buy it. i mean, does god want me to lie and say that i believe? if being true to oneself is considered a virtue then i have to be honest when i say that the church and its members are fucking clowns in my eyes, and i want no part of it.
jesus was a cool cat though, but it's unfortunate his message was lost in translation from the start
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deCypher
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
I believe that God ensured that the bible would remain in tact in the sense that what is there is exactly what is needed right now and its a precise translation of the original text
This I do not believe. If you believe in Satan then wouldn't it be possible for evil influences to have corrupted the message of Jesus?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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dont be logical, ok?
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11542706 - 11/28/09 11:42 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
i just can't buy it, man. im sorry. im not being disrespectful, but i can't buy it. i mean, does god want me to lie and say that i believe? if being true to oneself is considered a virtue then i have to be honest when i say that the church and its members are fucking clowns in my eyes, and i want no part of it.
jesus was a cool cat though, but it's unfortunate his message was lost in translation from the start
you should do your own research and read it for yourself
theres many places on the web that offer various translations for free
I usually use www.biblegateway.com
you can even compare versions of the bible
if you don't believe it then you shouldn't say you do
what I did back in the day was reach out to God and said to Him "I'm sorry if I'm wrong but I just can't believe something unless I really believe its true"
I would suggest you do the same
but thats up to you
theres a lot of Christians who don't go to church btw(I'm one of them)
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11542712 - 11/28/09 11:43 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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I forgot to burn my logic and rationality in the fires of faith. Hopefully the Lord will forgive me. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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buddha never claimed to be better than anyone. he said we can all be equal to him, and i believe that.
religious hierarchies upset me
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
I believe that God ensured that the bible would remain in tact in the sense that what is there is exactly what is needed right now and its a precise translation of the original text
This I do not believe. If you believe in Satan then wouldn't it be possible for evil influences to have corrupted the message of Jesus?
God is far more powerful then Satan could ever hope to be
I believe God wanted us to understand and made sure through his foreknowledge that what was said would be true and remain in tact
I suggest you do some diggin of your own
you can't believe something cause I'm telling you its true
you have to believe because you really fucking believe
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
deCypher said:
I forgot to burn my logic and rationality in the fires of faith. Hopefully the Lord will forgive me.
truth is that most who claim rationality are usually far from it
I think I have demonstrated over and over again that I am a rational human being
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
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I think it's more likely that God would want us to evaluate the messages of the Bible through the test of our own experiences and logic rather than blindly accept their truth on faith.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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even if that were the case, according to christians, after your own testing/experience/rationale you better side with god, or you will burn forever.
that's like telling a child he won't receive dessert if he doesn't behave, but instead will receive a lashing.
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
deCypher said:
I think it's more likely that God would want us to evaluate the messages of the Bible through the test of our own experiences and logic rather than blindly accept their truth on faith.
thats what I did
I didn't always understand why things were the way they were
but I just kept diggin and I keep diggin
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11542747 - 11/28/09 11:49 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
even if that were the case, according to christians, after your own testing/experience/rationale you better side with god, or you will burn forever.
that's like telling a child he won't receive dessert if he doesn't behave, but instead will receive a lashing.
ya and kids need discipline
I'm sorry if that upsets you but that is the reality of the situation
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
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the reality AS YOU SEE IT does not make it absolute truth.
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deCypher
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11542757 - 11/28/09 11:51 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
even if that were the case, according to christians, after your own testing/experience/rationale you better side with god, or you will burn forever.
that's like telling a child he won't receive dessert if he doesn't behave, but instead will receive a lashing.
Yeah, except the Christian could always produce the counterargument that God has showed you the only path to heaven. Any missteps from this and into eternal damnation are your fault alone for not trusting in His word. Do we blame the park ranger when we ignore his directions and blunder into a bear cave, or should we blame ourselves for not listening?
(Note that I don't believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God in the first place so I'm just playing Devil's advocate here.  )
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11542761 - 11/28/09 11:52 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
the reality AS YOU SEE IT does not make it absolute truth.
doesn't negate the fact that what I said IS THE TRUTH
deal with and stop acting like such a baby, seriously I think you needed some more lashings growing up
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
ya and kids need discipline
Kids need love, not fear of eternal punishment. I strongly suspect that Jesus' original message said nothing about Hell.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
dr_gonz said:
even if that were the case, according to christians, after your own testing/experience/rationale you better side with god, or you will burn forever.
that's like telling a child he won't receive dessert if he doesn't behave, but instead will receive a lashing.
Yeah, except the Christian could always produce the counterargument that God has showed you the only path to heaven. Any missteps from this and into eternal damnation are your fault alone for not trusting in His word. Do we blame the park ranger when we ignore his directions and blunder into a bear cave, or should we blame ourselves for not listening?
(Note that I don't believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God in the first place so I'm just playing Devil's advocate here. )
you just had a moment of prophecy
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
ya and kids need discipline
Kids need love, not fear of eternal punishment. I strongly suspect that Jesus' original message said nothing about Hell.
kids need loving discipline
associating consequence with physical pain(not saying beat the kid into a coma but just a slap on the ass)
is a good lesson to learn
we all gotta learn it eventually, why not start early?
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 41,632
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
dr_gonz said:
the reality AS YOU SEE IT does not make it absolute truth.
doesn't negate the fact that what I said IS THE TRUTH
deal with and stop acting like such a baby, seriously I think you needed some more lashings growing up
christians are very heavy speculators!
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
you just had a moment of prophecy
lolwut
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
kids need loving discipline
associating consequence with physical pain(not saying beat the kid into a coma but just a slap on the ass)
is a good lesson to learn
we all gotta learn it eventually, why not start early?
As a kid I was occasionally spanked or beaten with a belt when I misbehaved. The only thing experiencing physical pain did was teach me not to get caught in the future.
All recent parenting studies that I've read show that treating your kids with care and compassion will help them learn much more efficiently than by treating them with intimidation and fear.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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dr_gonz
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bingo
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
you just had a moment of prophecy
lolwut
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
kids need loving discipline
associating consequence with physical pain(not saying beat the kid into a coma but just a slap on the ass)
is a good lesson to learn
we all gotta learn it eventually, why not start early?
As a kid I was occasionally spanked or beaten with a belt when I misbehaved. The only thing experiencing physical pain did was teach me not to get caught in the future.
All recent parenting studies that I've read show that treating your kids with care and compassion will help them learn much more efficiently than by treating them with intimidation and fear.
I'm talking about particularly bad bahavior
not being spanked on a regular basis
theres a lot of kids running wild right now because they aren't getting the proper discipline so I don't know what to say about that study
can you post a link?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
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It makes intuitive sense that a child learns better when treated with compassion rather than with intimidation.
Quote:
Some psychological research is held to indicate that corporal punishment causes the deterioration of trust bonds between parents and children. It is claimed that children subjected to corporal punishment may grow resentful, shy, insecure, or violent. Adults who report having been slapped or spanked by their parents in childhood have been found to experience elevated rates of anxiety disorder, alcohol abuse or dependence and externalizing problems as adults.[47] Some researchers believe that corporal punishment actually works against its objective (normally obedience), since children will not voluntarily obey an adult they do not trust. Researcher Elizabeth Gershoff, Ph. D., in a 2002 meta-analytic study that combined 60 years of research on corporal punishment, found that the only positive outcome of corporal punishment was immediate compliance; however, corporal punishment was associated with less long-term compliance.[48] Corporal punishment was linked with nine other negative outcomes, including increased rates of aggression, delinquency, mental health problems, problems in relationships with their parents, and likelihood of being physically abused.
The two studies cited are http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/161/7/805 and http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=2002-01514-001
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
deCypher said:
It makes intuitive sense that a child learns better when treated with compassion rather than with intimidation.
Quote:
Some psychological research is held to indicate that corporal punishment causes the deterioration of trust bonds between parents and children. It is claimed that children subjected to corporal punishment may grow resentful, shy, insecure, or violent. Adults who report having been slapped or spanked by their parents in childhood have been found to experience elevated rates of anxiety disorder, alcohol abuse or dependence and externalizing problems as adults.[47] Some researchers believe that corporal punishment actually works against its objective (normally obedience), since children will not voluntarily obey an adult they do not trust. Researcher Elizabeth Gershoff, Ph. D., in a 2002 meta-analytic study that combined 60 years of research on corporal punishment, found that the only positive outcome of corporal punishment was immediate compliance; however, corporal punishment was associated with less long-term compliance.[48] Corporal punishment was linked with nine other negative outcomes, including increased rates of aggression, delinquency, mental health problems, problems in relationships with their parents, and likelihood of being physically abused.
The two studies cited are http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/161/7/805 and http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=2002-01514-001
there are times when a child needs to know his/her place
kids have too much power over their parents these days
and it doesn't make them act like little angels
I am totally for love and gentleness
but if I kid acts really badly then a spanking might be warranted
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Life Upon Death
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honesty is probably the most important quality with God
if your honest with yourself and others then your doing ok already even if you haven't learned everything you need to know yet
but if you engage in any kind of deceptive behavior then you better rethink whether or not you've truly owned up to yourself
just thought I'd put that out there
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deCypher
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In my experience, some of the most successful relationships are based on lies and deceit... since that's where they end up anyway, it's a logical place to start.
--Lord of War
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
deCypher said:
In my experience, some of the most successful relationships are based on lies and deceit... since that's where they end up anyway, it's a logical place to start.
--Lord of War
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Life Upon Death
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just to satify TwistingDervish's request to strictly stick to the topic:
here is a video about the Anti-Christ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3kB0yiX8MA
the United Nations HEAVILY supports this man so I would not take this lightly
your going to have to make a choice in the near future
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c0sm0nautt
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I spent a semester as the UN... if your afraid of the UN and their 2 billion dollar annual budget you've got another thing coming...
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astralsun.blogspot.com
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
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Life Upon Death
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
I spent a semester as the UN... if your afraid of the UN and their 2 billion dollar annual budget you've got another thing coming...
and you think they let you in on everything?
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Life Upon Death
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wanna see what Alice Baily said about Hitler? sure you do!
"Hitler, who lifted a distressed people upon his shoulders; Lenin, the idealist; Stalin and Franco are all expressions of the Shamballa force and of certain little-understood energies.... We call these people dictators, demagogues.... But all these leaders are... being used to engineer great and needed changes and to alter the face of civilisation." (_Externalisation_ II, p.134-5)
Alice A. Bailey
the Theosophical society actually believed Hitler was Maitreya at one point lol
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 41,632
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u spend too much time trying to solve these mysteries, as do many christians.
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Life Upon Death
Stranger
Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 3,225
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11543567 - 11/28/09 02:26 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
u spend too much time trying to solve these mysteries, as do many christians.
you don't spend enough time
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 41,632
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u cant solve them.
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Life Upon Death
Stranger
Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 3,225
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Pharisees? [Re: dr_gonz]
#11543595 - 11/28/09 02:30 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
u cant solve them.
sure I can
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 41,632
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i respectfully disagree
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Darkestone
One of Them
Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 682
Loc: On healing wings
Last seen: 2 years, 12 days
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Quote:
twirlingdervish said:
Just wondering if maybe the antichrist "prophecies" might have been just as misunderstood by the Christians as Jesus himself is...
Perhaps the Antichrist or antichrists is really just symbolic ofr a person or people whose purpose is to bring about the end of Christian rule. In which case he would be more of a hero than a villain.
Maybe...
"Here's what it is, the antichrist spirit is not the communistic spirit. The antichrist spirit is a religious spirit. I have delivered my soul; that's what God was wanting me to, right there. Amen.
Father, we thank Thee. Now, I--I am Your servant, and I believe with all of my heart as sure as I believe I'm standing here with my hand on Your Word, that that's what You wanted me to say. And I waited, stumbling around, until You spoke the Word. Now, we thank You, Lord. And we pray that You'll let men and women here tonight, be careful, walk careful. For we know it's written in these days of what would come to pass. And true to my mind now, it comes afresh that over in the book of Matthew Jesus said, "The two spirits would be so close together it would deceive the very elect if possible."
And Father, we know that those things are now. And we thank Thee, and may we have this warning in our heart to watch everything that we do. In the Name of the Lord Jesus we thank Thee. Amen."
William Marrion Branham
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Life Upon Death
Stranger
Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 3,225
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Is the Antichrist really that bad?? [Re: Darkestone]
#11549831 - 11/29/09 02:40 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darkestone said:
Quote:
twirlingdervish said:
Just wondering if maybe the antichrist "prophecies" might have been just as misunderstood by the Christians as Jesus himself is...
Perhaps the Antichrist or antichrists is really just symbolic ofr a person or people whose purpose is to bring about the end of Christian rule. In which case he would be more of a hero than a villain.
Maybe...
"Here's what it is, the antichrist spirit is not the communistic spirit. The antichrist spirit is a religious spirit. I have delivered my soul; that's what God was wanting me to, right there. Amen.
Father, we thank Thee. Now, I--I am Your servant, and I believe with all of my heart as sure as I believe I'm standing here with my hand on Your Word, that that's what You wanted me to say. And I waited, stumbling around, until You spoke the Word. Now, we thank You, Lord. And we pray that You'll let men and women here tonight, be careful, walk careful. For we know it's written in these days of what would come to pass. And true to my mind now, it comes afresh that over in the book of Matthew Jesus said, "The two spirits would be so close together it would deceive the very elect if possible."
And Father, we know that those things are now. And we thank Thee, and may we have this warning in our heart to watch everything that we do. In the Name of the Lord Jesus we thank Thee. Amen."
William Marrion Branham
beautiful
Edited by Life Upon Death (11/29/09 03:10 PM)
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