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 Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
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 Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct  [Re: learningtofly]
#11477039 - 11/18/09 06:24 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
how would this get rid of police misconduct and do you realize the implications of this? One of the main reasons that the state gets the burden of proof (guilty until proven innocent) is because the state has a much larger budget. If both sides have equal budgets, people might have to start proving their innocence.
It helps lower police misconduct because it removes profitability from those practicing criminal law (defense lawyers). Currently, the system is stacked so those with money get good representation while those without get almost no representation. Those with money tend to walk while those without tend to do time. The state typically has an unlimited budget to prosecute cases. By requiring the state to equally represent both sides, and giving both sides an equal budget, we help remove the inequity, based upon financial well being, from the criminal legal system. When practicing criminal law is no longer profitable, criminal lawyers turned law makers will stop making stupid criminal laws, thus police will no longer have to enforce stupid criminal laws, thus police misconduct will be reduced.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: Seuss]
#11477359 - 11/18/09 08:08 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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and this gets rid of brutality and corruption how?
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Deekay
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Loc: 
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: learningtofly]
#11478354 - 11/18/09 11:36 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
What kind of education do you mean? A lot of police officers in Madison, WI have masters degrees. A lot of departments require 2yrs of college minimum but mostly accept at least Bachelor's degrees and masters. Do you mean education as far as dealing with potential criminals or education in general?
I mean, 4 year degree with minimum gpa requirements to be eligible as well as increased difficulty at police academy's would be a start. masters degree for state troopers and above. also the academy would have a mandatory course of liability as a police officer as well.
Quote:
What kind of increased penalties for what? A lot get off easier (as far as criminal court, not civil court where they get fukin sued for wrongful death or whatever) because they claim it's in the line of duty. The problem is that yeah, they shouldn't do a lot of things they do but you can't expect them to sit back and evaluate each situation before acting otherwise they'd get nowhere.
But then there are cases where it's pretty obvious the cop was just on a power trip.
increased criminal penalties combined with fair trials (not sided for the officer) though that is unlikely to change.
if these changes were made potential leos would need to have more incentives (higher salary?) to compensate the risks and liability. however we would hypothetically need less officers, they would be more efficient in every facet of their job.
i hope that didnt sound too ridiculous im in class now lol
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 Prisoner#1
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Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: learningtofly]
#11478455 - 11/18/09 12:01 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
Seuss said:
Citizen run oversight of cop conduct for any complaints.
we already have civilian review boards and they don't really accomplish much.
maybe a few localities use a citizens review system but the vast majority
do not, in those instances where there are CRBs established, how exactly
are they handled... the City of Atlanta has one now and guess what...
cops refuse to cooperate because a review board doesnt recognize the
'Garrity Rights' that cops so frequently use when being investigated
http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/atlanta-police-officers-refuse-124567.html
what are garrity rights?
it's the chance for cops to get away with murder by simply invoking
the rights, answering the questions and circumventing prosecution
http://www.njlawman.com/Garrity.htm
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: Deekay]
#11478483 - 11/18/09 12:08 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deekay said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
What kind of education do you mean? A lot of police officers in Madison, WI have masters degrees. A lot of departments require 2yrs of college minimum but mostly accept at least Bachelor's degrees and masters. Do you mean education as far as dealing with potential criminals or education in general?
I mean, 4 year degree with minimum gpa requirements to be eligible as well as increased difficulty at police academy's would be a start. masters degree for state troopers and above. also the academy would have a mandatory course of liability as a police officer as well.
and what exactly would be the payscale for the cops after that point
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11478896 - 11/18/09 01:20 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/18/nyregion/18recruit.html
Quote:
The department is also better educated than in the past: in 1999, 17 percent of the force had four-year college degrees; this year, the figure rose to 24 percent.
Read the article. It's a result of the recession and demonization and destruction of private enterprise that more people are opting for civil service careers. Great. Just great.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11479307 - 11/18/09 02:29 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deekay said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
What kind of education do you mean? A lot of police officers in Madison, WI have masters degrees. A lot of departments require 2yrs of college minimum but mostly accept at least Bachelor's degrees and masters. Do you mean education as far as dealing with potential criminals or education in general?
I mean, 4 year degree with minimum gpa requirements to be eligible as well as increased difficulty at police academy's would be a start. masters degree for state troopers and above. also the academy would have a mandatory course of liability as a police officer as well.
how are you going to finance their salaries? If cops have to have a master's degree, they're going to expect a much higher pay before of the effort involved in getting it. Not everyone can afford to get a master's degree either, will the state pay for part of their educaton?
Quote:
Quote:
What kind of increased penalties for what? A lot get off easier (as far as criminal court, not civil court where they get fukin sued for wrongful death or whatever) because they claim it's in the line of duty. The problem is that yeah, they shouldn't do a lot of things they do but you can't expect them to sit back and evaluate each situation before acting otherwise they'd get nowhere.
But then there are cases where it's pretty obvious the cop was just on a power trip.
increased criminal penalties combined with fair trials (not sided for the officer) though that is unlikely to change.
if these changes were made potential leos would need to have more incentives (higher salary?) to compensate the risks and liability. however we would hypothetically need less officers, they would be more efficient in every facet of their job.
i hope that didnt sound too ridiculous im in class now lol
Increased criminal penalties like what? As for "fair trials," that's the standard we already have and I have no idea how you plan to extra enforce it.
How would we hypothetically need less officers? I don't see the logic behind that.Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
Seuss said:
Which is why I said the ones we have don't really do anything.
Citizen run oversight of cop conduct for any complaints.
we already have civilian review boards and they don't really accomplish much.
maybe a few localities use a citizens review system but the vast majority
do not, in those instances where there are CRBs established, how exactly
are they handled... the City of Atlanta has one now and guess what...
cops refuse to cooperate because a review board doesnt recognize the
'Garrity Rights' that cops so frequently use when being investigated
http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/atlanta-police-officers-refuse-124567.html
what are garrity rights?
it's the chance for cops to get away with murder by simply invoking
the rights, answering the questions and circumventing prosecution
http://www.njlawman.com/Garrity.htm
which is why i said the ones we have dont really do anything
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
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Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: learningtofly]
#11482007 - 11/18/09 08:19 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm sure you knew all about garrity rights
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,194
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: learningtofly]
#11483668 - 11/19/09 03:12 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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> and this gets rid of brutality and corruption how?
How did all those fish get up there? 
> in those instances where there are CRBs established, how exactly are they handled...
The CRBs should have the power to dismiss, discipline, or request prosecution for corrupt police conduct.
> how are you going to finance their salaries? If cops have to have a master's degree, they're going to expect a much higher pay
How do we finance police salaries now? I don't think cops should have to have a masters degree, that seems a bit excessive. However, by raising the requirements for becoming a cop, we get better cops. Those that don't make the cut can go back to playing mall security guard. Making a few minor changes to our criminal code, such as getting rid of consensual crimes, would reduce the need for the number of cops that we currently employ. The money saved from having a smaller police force can be spent on higher salaries for better trained police officers.
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Poid
deBunker
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Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: learningtofly]
#11485674 - 11/19/09 12:47 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
Phoenix, AZ allows citizens to carry guns yet they still have a police brutality problem.
That isn't surprising--there are many dangerous gangsters there. 
so then how would having everyone carry a gun solve this problem? it wouldn't.
If everyone knew that everyone carries a gun, then only suicidal people would start shit with others.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: Poid]
#11489891 - 11/19/09 10:14 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
Phoenix, AZ allows citizens to carry guns yet they still have a police brutality problem.
That isn't surprising--there are many dangerous gangsters there.
so then how would having everyone carry a gun solve this problem? it wouldn't.
If everyone knew that everyone carries a gun, then only suicidal people would start shit with others.
How many murders are thought out like "hmm... if I kill this person there may be consequences"
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,194
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 hours, 4 seconds
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: learningtofly]
#11490927 - 11/20/09 03:18 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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> How many murders are thought out like "hmm... if I kill this person there may be consequences"
How many murders are thought out at all? Regardless, most criminals are opportunistic going after the easy targets they happen across. Knowing that everybody is armed removes a large portion of the opportunistic component.
Back on topic... I don't believe that a completely armed society would help reduce police misconduct. It would simply provide the police with an excuse to "search" every person they come across.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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pothead_bob
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: Poid]
#11491524 - 11/20/09 07:40 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
If everyone knew that everyone carries a gun, then only suicidal people would start shit with others.
so are you suggesting all citizens be forced to carry guns as a means of reducing police misconduct?
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No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences. -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)
Speak well of your enemies. After all, you made them.
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Statisticons_win
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: Cannabischarlie]
#11491822 - 11/20/09 08:59 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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they should be hung as traitors, hung as oath breakers.
werd up!
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: Seuss]
#11491829 - 11/20/09 09:01 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
> How many murders are thought out like "hmm... if I kill this person there may be consequences"
How many murders are thought out at all? Regardless, most criminals are opportunistic going after the easy targets they happen across. Knowing that everybody is armed removes a large portion of the opportunistic component.
.
That was my point. Not many murders are planned out, so having everyone carry a gun wouldn't make a difference because consequences aren't being considered.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: learningtofly]
#11491893 - 11/20/09 09:23 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: Seuss]
#11492113 - 11/20/09 10:17 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
I don't believe that a completely armed society would help reduce police misconduct. It would simply provide the police with an excuse to "search" every person they come across.
That's actually a very good point.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: Seuss]
#11492866 - 11/20/09 12:36 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
The CRBs should have the power to dismiss, discipline, or request prosecution for corrupt police conduct.
absolutely... but of course we know that the police and most legislators
wont include/allow it to be included that in the bills that establish
CRBs, not to mention the reaction of the unions, can you imagine,
someone that pays the salaries having some say in the system
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Prisoner#1
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Re: what changes should/need to be made to address police misconduct [Re: learningtofly]
#11492916 - 11/20/09 12:43 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
That was my point. Not many murders are planned out, so having everyone carry a gun wouldn't make a difference because consequences aren't being considered.
from the victims perspective it may make a great deal of difference regardless of planning
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