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 RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
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Loc: Boston
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 The term 'Liberal'
#11460640 - 11/15/09 02:08 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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In the name of the true classical liberals that presented philisophical arguments in favor of freedom and opposed to opression, I hereby strip all socialists of the title 'liberal' as like everything else they try to steal, they have not earned such a term.
What say ye?
Edited by RationalEgo (11/15/09 02:15 PM)
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Prisoner#1
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the term liberal in modern usage means that they are liberal with spending your
paycheck, much like a spouse but you get twice the fucking with out the sex
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
the term liberal in modern usage means that they are liberal with spending your
paycheck, much like a spouse but you get twice the fucking with out the sex
So true!
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 zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Your Rational Egotism leads you to believe that you can control the language. What you say about classical liberalism is entirely correct but the current usage of the word "liberal" as accepted by native speakers of the language has come to mean something else. Something evil. Too bad. It should be called by it's proper name. Hell.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
 
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Liberal or conservative have no concrete definition outside the contexts that they are used in. They are meant to be relative terms to a period and setting's centrist or status quo ideology.
To pretend a 100 year old definition carries any contemporary relevancy is to completely misunderstand the concept.
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RationalEgo
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Your Rational Egotism leads you to believe that you can control the language.
You obviously failed to grasp the snarky tone of my original post. 
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11460747 - 11/15/09 02:21 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
To pretend a 100 year old definition carries any contemporary relevancy is to completely misunderstand the concept.
Socialists such as yourself hijacked the term and took it as your own.
In the context of the meaning that Pris defined, it is certainly an apt term.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Socialists such as yourself hijacked the term and took it as your own.
In the context of the meaning that Pris defined, it is certainly an apt term.
The term is meant to be hijaacked. You didn't even read my post...
Your motivation is clearly wishful thinking that you can magically revert to past political contexts. Welcome to the 21st century bubs, this isn't the 19th.
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11460818 - 11/15/09 02:32 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Socialists such as yourself hijacked the term and took it as your own.
In the context of the meaning that Pris defined, it is certainly an apt term.
The term is meant to be hijaacked.
Not by individuals espousing polar opposite principles its not.
Quote:
Your motivation is clearly wishful thinking that you can magically revert to past political contexts.
Nope, my motivation is to disarm you of a term that has carried and still carries a benign connotation that you hide behind.
Socialism is anything but benign. The cancer is real and rampant.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
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.
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edit: dont start insulting people just because you think you can, provide a rational answer without resorting to childishness
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Edited by Prisoner#1 (11/15/09 02:52 PM)
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11460888 - 11/15/09 02:41 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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I destroyed this thread with my first post. You can't defend against my argument because your own consists of opening a 100 year old dictionary.
/end thread
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Your Rational Egotism leads you to believe that you can control the language.
You obviously failed to grasp the snarky tone of my original post.
I didn't. I intended mine the same way.
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Shins
Fun guy
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"A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to society, and wishes to pay it with your money."
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Shins]
#11460956 - 11/15/09 02:49 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
"A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to society, and wishes to pay it with your money."
Turn off Fox News.
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
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Posts: 2,012
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11460973 - 11/15/09 02:50 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
I destroyed this thread with my first post. You can't defend against my argument because your own consists of opening a 100 year old dictionary.
/end thread
You destroyed nothing, but you have attempted to whitewash history and also have not contested that the term was indeed highjacked. Your arguments Sir, have been destroyed. You cannot ignore history.
Quote:
Ferris said:
Quote:
Shins said:
"A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to society, and wishes to pay it with your money."
Turn off Fox News.
Explain how the quote is not true. Fox News has nothing to do with the quote.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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It's off topic and overly simplistic. You can't represent reality with a one-liner. That's a key propaganda technique. Government always uses "other people's money" or inversely, they always use their own money. One can be existential that way and make their argument "bulletproof," but that doesn't make it any less of a bullshit argument.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11460995 - 11/15/09 02:52 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
I destroyed this thread with my first post. You can't defend against my argument because your own consists of opening a 100 year old dictionary.
/end thread
what first post?
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11461008 - 11/15/09 02:54 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
Liberal or conservative have no concrete definition outside the contexts that they are used in. They are meant to be relative terms to a period and setting's centrist or status quo ideology.
To pretend a 100 year old definition carries any contemporary relevancy is to completely misunderstand the concept.
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RationalEgo
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11461041 - 11/15/09 02:58 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
Liberal or conservative have no concrete definition outside the contexts that they are used in.
Yup, and that context is called 'Reality'.
Quote:
They are meant to be relative terms to a period and setting's centrist or status quo ideology.
So you can ignore the historical context of the term perhaps? What is wrong with just openly calling yourself socialist? Too much historical context (murder, starvation, oppression) in that term for your liking?
Quote:
To pretend a 100 year old definition carries any contemporary relevancy is to completely misunderstand the concept.
You hijacked the term. The concept was created to refer to a particular ideology. The term liberal now means nothing but an indicator of a socialist ideology with a benign sounding connotation that you hide behind.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Another term hijacked by the thieves; "Progressive" Which is just a laugh riot considering they stand foursquare against any notion of progress whatsoever.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Yup, and that context is called 'Reality'.
Something you apparently don't live in.
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Redstorm
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Quote:
Nope, my motivation is to disarm you of a term that has carried and still carries a benign connotation that you hide behind.
Good luck with this. At least you're off to a good start on the internet message board circuit.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11461171 - 11/15/09 03:14 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Go away. You're obnoxious and vapid with zero points for style.
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11461182 - 11/15/09 03:15 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Yup, and that context is called 'Reality'.
Something you apparently don't live in.
Ah, the flame. The last resort of someone who lacks a rational argument.
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Shins
Fun guy
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11461202 - 11/15/09 03:17 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
Quote:
Shins said:
"A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to society, and wishes to pay it with your money."
Turn off Fox News.
LOL i don't even have a TV let alone fox news. =D
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Another term hijacked by the thieves; "Progressive" Which is just a laugh riot considering they stand foursquare against any notion of progress whatsoever.
They can't stand to just call themselves 'socialists' can they? They know exactly what calling themselves would imply in reality and try to evade every instance of refering to themselves as such.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
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Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Ah, the flame. The last resort of someone who lacks a rational argument.
Gimme a break. Your intentions here are trolling and general thuggery.
And Zappa, I've never heard a sane word come out of you mouth, so don't think I take you very seriously, mkay.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11461384 - 11/15/09 03:35 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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You're about as qualified to judge sanity as anna.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Sanity is a warm and meaty pussy.
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11461429 - 11/15/09 03:40 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Ah, the flame. The last resort of someone who lacks a rational argument.
Gimme a break. Your intentions here are trolling and general thuggery.
This is so ironic as you are the one flaming throughout this thread and advocating government thuggery!
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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My OP was the epitome of class, but it's like teaching calculus to a toddler.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11461552 - 11/15/09 03:52 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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You know calculus?
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RationalEgo
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11461565 - 11/15/09 03:53 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
My OP was the epitome of class, but it's like teaching calculus to a toddler.
If your OP was so 'classy' and intelligent then perhaps you could formulate a rational response to my objections to it?
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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I preempted your "objection" in my OP.
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jimbotron
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11463863 - 11/15/09 09:01 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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'Liberal' at some point got twisted to mean people who support speech codes and the National Endowment for the Arts.
At the same time, "small government" conservatives venerate Ronald Reagan, who managed to raise taxes and run up the biggest deficit America had ever seen - at the same time! Bill Clinton balanced the budget and so he's the biggest liberal ever except for Hillary and Al Gore and Obama and Pelosi and Reid and Michael Moore. And then GW Bush ran up an ASTRONOMICAL credit card bill for everyone, while spying on all internet traffic and starting two useless wars, and so naturally he was reviled by conservatives.
Just kidding! They tongue-bathed his balls and called him the living incarnation of Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchhill, and Jesus Christ all rolled into one.
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RationalEgo
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11464324 - 11/15/09 10:23 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
I preempted your "objection" in my OP.
Admit it, I destroyed the argument in your OP and you cannot formulate a rational argument in retort.
Edited by RationalEgo (11/15/09 10:51 PM)
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Quote:
Ferris said:
I preempted your "objection" in my OP.
Admit it, I destroyed the argument in your OP and you cannot formulate a rational argument in retort.
I think of the original definition as: One who loves liberty.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Mr.Al]
#11465335 - 11/16/09 04:50 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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And so it was.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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History has a tendency to repeat itself.
Perhaps the term will be liberated from socialists.
Edited by Mr.Al (11/16/09 04:56 AM)
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Mr.Al]
#11465716 - 11/16/09 07:35 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
History has a tendency to repeat itself.
Perhaps the term will be liberated from socialists.
Its sad that Europe did not learn the lesson from WW2. Its shocking that our great nation now wants to follow their mistaken example.
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
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Its a moral crisis if there ever was one. It's not just socialists who are to blame, it is the moral perversity and intellectual bankruptcy of the right that let it get this far in the first place.
We cannot solve these problems with just 'economic' arguments. That's weak. We cannot defend liberty without properly defining it and the moral basis on which it lies.
It's the reason why anyone who considers themselves a lover of freedom and liberty should be picking up some Rand books ASAP and getting the necessary philisophical weapons to shift this nation back in the right direction.
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novumorganum
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ah there it is. objectivists seek to convert everyone to the one true faith!
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
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Quote:
novumorganum said:
ah there it is. objectivists seek to convert everyone to the one true faith!
Yeah right, I'm seeking to 'convert' people to a 'faith', sure buddy, whatever...
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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The Catholic church has also lost it's way.
Everything should be as it was, because I say so!
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Poid
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11467082 - 11/16/09 12:27 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
The Catholic church has also lost it's way.
The Catholic church's way has always been lost. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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jimbotron
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Poid]
#11467815 - 11/16/09 02:21 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Q; What do Christianity and Objectivism have in common?
A: They're both based on poorly-written works of fiction.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11468411 - 11/16/09 03:45 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
looks like a party in the frathouse, someone always ends up naked, bound and funneling
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GI_Luvmoney
Vote Republican!
Registered: 05/10/09
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Classical Liberal
Above all, classical liberalism believed in laissez-faire: free market, private enterprise capitalism and the absolute right of the individual to enter and to succeed or fail in the market on his own merits, without state help or hinderance. Thus it advocated a free market economy controlled only by the forces of supply and demand and not by state regulation or direction.
http://www.republicanoperative.com/forums/left-vs-right/23804-obamas-ideology-critical-discussion.html
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jimbotron
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If conservatives are so great at making it on their own then why do the rich ones (example: Cheney) make all their money off of defense contracts that suck more money from the government teat then every "welfare" program combined?
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Cannabischarlie
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Quote:
RationalEgo said:
In the name of the true classical liberals that presented philisophical arguments in favor of freedom and opposed to opression, I hereby strip all socialists of the title 'liberal' as like everything else they try to steal, they have not earned such a term.
What say ye?
you read my mind. well, not so much read it bu put into words what i have been trying to express to myself what exactly is wrong with how this term is used and why I have to explain why I can't be a liberal although I think its the ideal thing to be. Having socialists hijack that only gives even more credibility to assclown oppressers and Republicans (who have been hijacked by jackbooted conservatives and cease to have any resemblance to what a 'republican' should be.
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 we could all use a little more sunshine.
yeah, she's funny and somewhat interesting. not a beauty queen, but not bad lookin. i'd feel quite honored to fuck janine garofalo. -tiny_rabid_birds
If you're actaully racist in real life though, you're literally a homosexual faggot.-StevenMichael
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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If any of you wanted to make any difference at all, you'd vote liberal democrat in the primaries, and democrat in the general. You're playing right into the hands of the big corporations by falling for immature ideologies.
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Mr.Al
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: jimbotron]
#11472373 - 11/17/09 06:28 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
jimbotron said:
If conservatives are so great at making it on their own then why do the rich ones (example: Cheney) make all their money off of defense contracts that suck more money from the government teat then every "welfare" program combined?
Cheney is a neo-conservative.
Real big difference.
Conservatives used to be against warfare, nation building, and expansion of government.
Republicans and Democrats today look more and more alike.
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Mr.Al
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11472387 - 11/17/09 06:32 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
If any of you wanted to make any difference at all, you'd vote liberal democrat in the primaries, and democrat in the general. You're playing right into the hands of the big corporations by falling for immature ideologies.
Huh?!?
The Democrats are presently attempting to hand over vast sums of money to big health insurance through mandatory health insurance programs.
Both parties are sold out. There are notable politicians from both sides who haven't. Id est: Kucinich and Paul.
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RationalEgo
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Mr.Al]
#11472486 - 11/17/09 07:16 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
There are notable politicians from both sides who haven't. Id est: Kucinich and Paul.
Ron Paul's pro-life views and his defence of 'liberty' without a proper definition or moral basis are ludicrous.
Kuccinich endorsed Obama at the Democratic convention and all of his social polices are terrible, not to mention he shares the lax foreign policies of Paul.
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Mr.Al
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Kucinich does tend to side with his party when push comes to shove.
As far as foreign policy is concerned with Paul, I believe an inquiry into the history of the Roman Empire will show you the folly in policing the world.
I think Paul has the right ideas about liberty. Prosperity, peace, and sound economics all go together.
If people are shit poor of course you can't expect them to have any semblance of freedom...
Endless warfare causes just about the worst allocation of resources I can think of presently.
Pro-life?!? The man has personally delivered hundreds of babies. I wouldn't expect him to support abortion.
Edited by Mr.Al (11/17/09 07:50 AM)
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Paul is also believes in sound money, something most politicians won't even voice their opinions on. Do you find sound money "illogical"?
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Mr.Al]
#11478251 - 11/18/09 11:16 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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RationalEgo
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Mr.Al]
#11480230 - 11/18/09 04:27 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Paul is also believes in sound money, something most politicians won't even voice their opinions on. Do you find sound money "illogical"?
His economic ideas are fine.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: The term 'Liberal' *DELETED* [Re: RationalEgo]
#11480503 - 11/18/09 05:04 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by FerrisReason for deletion: .
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11483877 - 11/19/09 05:51 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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What causes the business cycle to occur?
What causes the redistribution of wealth?
Inflation of the money supply caused by a fractional reserve banking system that is propped up by the immoral "lender of last resort" "federal" reserve. Fucking with interest rates is what has caused the massive accumulation of debt both public and private (as well as severe destruction of the dollar's buying power -96% since 1913...)
What say you?
Fact: pseudo liberals do not understand economics. Read Frederic Bastiat That Which is Seen and That Which is Not Seen.
http://mises.org/web/2735
Read it. Understand why massive government spending destroys economic productivity because it is less efficient than the private sector. This means that there is a net economic loss through big government spending.
This bullshit stimulus nonsense is yet another attempt at bubble economics that will result in another boom/bust cycle.
See how these cycles are perpetuated until the entire system collapses.
You can not get something for nothing in an economy that experiences scarcity!
http://mises.org/daily/3498
Once price fixing occurs en masse you know the whole situation is F.U.B.A.R.
We have started price fixing with the institution of a "czar" in control of C.E.O. pay. It is easy to start with C.E.O.s because jealous people hate them.
Who does not understand economics?
Go look in the mirror.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Mr.Al]
#11484030 - 11/19/09 07:02 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ludwig von Mises Institute
That's your problem.
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zappaisgod
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11486293 - 11/19/09 02:30 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Business cycles are a natural occurrence in any economic system. They predate any notion of fiat currency or even currency at all. They are as old as trade is.
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Business cycles are a natural occurrence in any economic system. They predate any notion of fiat currency or even currency at all. They are as old as trade is.
Not only that but in the Austrian model rescissions are a good thing becuase bad businesses are allowed to fail and other new businesses (and usually better ones for the lessons learnt) spring up to replace them. The problem is when government get involved setting artificial interest rates and spend our money on bailing out failed businesses, taking over said businesses and generally moving in a socialist direction towards lack of freedom. This drags us deeper into depressions and causes the market to not operate correctly as there is now force behind certain businesses in the equation.
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Ferris
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Re: The term 'Liberal' *DELETED* [Re: RationalEgo]
#11486708 - 11/19/09 03:23 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by FerrisReason for deletion: .
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RationalEgo
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11486767 - 11/19/09 03:31 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Not only that but in the Austrian model rescissions are a good thing becuase bad businesses are allowed to fail and other new businesses (and usually better ones for the lessons learnt) spring up to replace them. The problem is when government get involved setting artificial interest rates and spend our money on bailing out failed businesses, taking over said businesses and generally moving in a socialist direction towards lack of freedom. This drags us deeper into depressions and causes the market to not operate correctly as there is now force behind certain businesses in the equation.
The same concept exists in normal economics last I checked.
Check again.
BTW, devaluation of the currency aka fiat is also not a method of sound economics. It is just as much robbery as spending our money on bailouts, only more insidious.
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Ferris
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Re: The term 'Liberal' *DELETED* [Re: RationalEgo]
#11486949 - 11/19/09 03:52 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by FerrisReason for deletion: .
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Edited by Ferris (11/19/09 03:58 PM)
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11487116 - 11/19/09 04:12 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Check again.
BTW, devaluation of the currency aka fiat is also not a method of sound economics. It is just as much robbery as spending our money on bailouts, only more insidious.
Check again.
Note: you're terribly wrong on both of your last posts. The only difference is that Austrian "economics" anthropomorphizes market forces to make them more cognizable to the simple mind.
Keynesian economics and Austrian economics are pretty much antithetical. The Austrian school does not 'anthropormize' market forces, it just recognises that market forces do not function properly under the conditions of government intervention into the marketplace.
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Ferris
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Re: The term 'Liberal' *DELETED* [Re: RationalEgo]
#11487179 - 11/19/09 04:20 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by FerrisReason for deletion: .
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RationalEgo
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11487327 - 11/19/09 04:38 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Central Banking Fiat and Free Market (Gold being the prefered) Standard are antithetical.
Market forces and Government initiation of force are antithetical.
Stimulus packages and letting businesses fail are antithetical.
Artificially set interest rates and Market decided interest rates are antithetical.
Need I continue?
Have I made my point clear yet?
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: The term 'Liberal' *DELETED* [Re: RationalEgo]
#11487611 - 11/19/09 05:11 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by FerrisReason for deletion: .
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11489800 - 11/19/09 10:00 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
I'm drawing conclusions, but not the ones you want me to make.
Your "conclusions" are not based on logic.
It is difficult to determine what you are basing your "conclusions" on.
Austrian economics is free market theory whereas Keynes promoted central economic planning.
These two forms of economics are not compatible.
Labeling the Austrian school as "loons" is not an argument. You have not made even a token attempt to discredit the Austrian school. They have been right on target, especially in the present day.
I think that you have not looked into Austrian economics.
It can be difficult to admit ignorance on a topic.
Admitting that you do not know is probably the first step to solving the problem.
People feel insecure about an intellectual position they are taking when they speak from ignorance.
Please understand I am not ridiculing you.
Pretty words are not sincere. Sincere words are not pretty.
Have I not already referred you to Frederic Bastiat and his That Which is Seen and That Which Is Not Seen?
http://mises.org/web/2735
(I have been awake over 24 hours, so I do not remember if we have discussed Bastiat.)
Bastiat's Broken Window Fallacy is something that I would consider essential reading for so-called modern day "liberals", democrats, and socialists.
To truly comprehend what economics is, you must look into (unseen and actually uncalculable) long term consequences to monetary and economic policies. It is in seeing "it" (given that there is no "actual economy", it is a system of individuals making decisions throughout their day, year-round) as a system that we can see where the real problems are. Bastiat's broken window fallacy destroys almost any argument for big government and central economic planning.
Have you read "That Which Is Seen, and That Which Is Not Seen"?
Do you disagree or agree with Bastiat? What is your reasoning?
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: The term 'Liberal' *DELETED* [Re: Mr.Al]
#11489856 - 11/19/09 10:09 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by FerrisReason for deletion: .
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Mr.Al
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11489927 - 11/19/09 10:18 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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You didn't read Bastiat?
The Broken Window Fallacy is just a few paragraphs:
I. The Broken Window
Have you ever witnessed the anger of the good shopkeeper, James B., when his careless son happened to break a pane of glass? If you have been present at such a scene, you will most assuredly bear witness to the fact, that every one of the spectators, were there even thirty of them, by common consent apparently, offered the unfortunate owner this invariable consolation: "It is an ill wind that blows nobody good. Everybody must live, and what would become of the glaziers if panes of glass were never broken?"
Now, this form of condolence contains an entire theory, which it will be well to show up in this simple case, seeing that it is precisely the same as that which, unhappily, regulates the greater part of our economical institutions. Suppose it cost six francs to repair the damage, and you say that the accident brings six francs to the glazier's trade—that it encourages that trade to the amount of six francs—I grant it; I have not a word to say against it; you reason justly. The glazier comes, performs his task, receives his six francs, rubs his hands, and, in his heart, blesses the careless child. All this is that which is seen.
But if, on the other hand, you come to the conclusion, as is too often the case, that it is a good thing to break windows, that it causes money to circulate, and that the encouragement of industry in general will be the result of it, you will oblige me to call out, " Stop there! your theory is confined to that which is seen; it takes no account of that which is not seen."
It is not seen that as our shopkeeper has spent six francs upon one thing, he cannot spend them upon another. It is not seen that if he had not had a window to replace, he would, perhaps, have replaced his old shoes, or added another book to his library. In short, he would have employed his six francs in some way which this accident has prevented.
Let us take a view of industry in general, as affected by this circumstance. The window being broken, the glazier's trade is encouraged to the amount of six francs: this is that which is seen.
If the window had not been broken, the shoemaker's trade (or some other) would have been encouraged to the amount of six francs: this is that which is not seen.
And if that which is not seen is taken into consideration, because it is a negative fact, as well as that which is seen, because it is a positive fact, it will be understood that neither industry in general, nor the sum total of national labor, is affected, whether windows are broken or not.
Now let us consider James B. himself. In the former supposition, that of the window being broken, he spends six francs, and has neither more nor less than he had before, the enjoyment of a window. In the second, where we suppose the window not to have been broken, he would have spent six francs in shoes, and would have had at the same time the enjoyment of a pair of shoes and of a window. Now, as James B. forms a part of society, must come to the conclusion, that, taking it altogether, and making an estimate of its enjoyments and its labors, it has lost the value of the broken window.
Whence we arrive at this unexpected conclusion: "Society loses the value of things which are uselessly destroyed;" and we must assent to a maxim which will make the hair of protectionists stand on end—To break, to spoil, to waste, is not to encourage national labor; or, more briefly, "destruction is not profit."
What will you say, Moniteur Industriel? what will you say, disciples of good M. F. Chamans, who has calculated with so much precision how much trade would gain by the burning of Paris, from the number of houses it would be necessary to rebuild?
I am sorry to disturb these ingenious calculations, as far as their spirit has been introduced into our legislation; but I beg him to begin them again, by taking into the account that which is not seen, and placing it alongside of that which is seen.
The reader must take care to remember that there are not two persons only, but three concerned in the little scene which I have submitted to his attention. One of them, James B., represents the consumer, reduced, by an act of destruction, to one enjoyment instead of two. Another, under the title of the glazier, shows us the producer, whose trade is encouraged by the accident. The third is the shoemaker (or some other tradesman), whose labor suffers proportionably by the same cause. It is this third person who is always kept in the shade, and who, personating that which is not seen, is a necessary element of the problem. It is he who shows us how absurd it is to think we see a profit in an act of destruction. It is he who will soon teach us that it is not less absurd to see a profit in a restriction, which is, after all, nothing else than a partial destruction. Therefore, if you will only go to the root of all the arguments which are adduced in its favor, all you will find will be the paraphrase of this vulgar saying—What would become of the glaziers, if nobody ever broke windows?
If you do not even wish to look at the material how can you honestly conclude that it is "fringe propaganda".
Perhaps the economy is fucked because people listen to mainstream economists (like that idiot Ben Bernanke)!
Ever give some thought to that?!?
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: The term 'Liberal' *DELETED* [Re: Mr.Al]
#11489976 - 11/19/09 10:26 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by FerrisReason for deletion: .
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11490023 - 11/19/09 10:33 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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So, what do you find erroneous about Bastiat?
If the mainstream economists have been dead wrong, why give credence to what they say today?
What is a good definition of insanity?
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: The term 'Liberal' *DELETED* [Re: Mr.Al]
#11490040 - 11/19/09 10:36 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by FerrisReason for deletion: .
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11490074 - 11/19/09 10:42 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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The Austrian camp has been correct.
The central bankers have been wrong.
Look at the housing bubble.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: The term 'Liberal' *DELETED* [Re: Mr.Al]
#11490098 - 11/19/09 10:47 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by FerrisReason for deletion: .
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Ferris]
#11490129 - 11/19/09 10:52 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Everyone was telling the Austrian school that they were wrong about the housing bubble.
Hayek won a nobel prize for his Austrian Business Cycle Theory. The Austrian school knows what the boom/bust business cycle is about.
Mainstream economics doesn't talk about that.
The Austrian school advocates free markets. The keynesians are into central bankers and central planning. Which school is real economics?
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Redstorm
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Mr.Al]
#11491434 - 11/20/09 06:54 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why don't you make your own thread about this stupid bullshit and stop hijacking other people's?
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Redstorm]
#11491443 - 11/20/09 07:00 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Why don't you make your own thread about this stupid bullshit and stop hijacking other people's?
This is my thread and I don't mind at all if he continues to explain the virtues of the Austrian model in it.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Ok, nevermind then.
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GI_Luvmoney
Vote Republican!
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Redstorm]
#11492980 - 11/20/09 12:52 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Are you using meth, Bubba?
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Redstorm]
#11493084 - 11/20/09 01:05 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Why don't you make your own thread about this stupid bullshit and stop hijacking other people's?
I don't think that... "If you post it, they will come.
Besides zappa, of course.
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Quote:
GI_Luvmoney said:
Are you using meth, Bubba?
One day a mod will do their job and ban you for puppetry (again).
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Mr.Al
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Re: The term 'Liberal' [Re: Redstorm]
#11503307 - 11/22/09 09:14 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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The OP's thread is important because it shows how problematic it can be when asshats hijack the meaning of words.
It is downright Orwellian.
I have noticed a similar issue with the definition of inflation/deflation. Inflation/deflation used to be (explicitly) monetary terms that dealt with the size of the money supply (increase/decrease).
It now is used to also describe rising or falling prices.
This confuses people and prevents them from understanding the causation of the business cycle which is primarily the creation of new money!
Perhaps this is why I encounter much opposition when explaining something as simple as the boom/bust business cycle (the "redefining" of inflation/deflation).
Today a "liberal" is a statist/borderline socialist who is all about big government and the welfare state. W.T.F. happened!?!
Edited by Mr.Al (11/22/09 09:15 AM)
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