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meatcakeman said:
This is obviously a debate of ethics and morality, not a political discussion. So, there really is no point for me to further our conversation, since no progress is occurring, and no point is being made. Simply put, debating with you about this is just a dead end, not an insightful exchange of intellect.

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Cop-out.

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meatcakeman said:
I don't judge you for your opinions

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But you do judge me, right?

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meatcakeman said:
If the government is established to protect ourselves from each other, then it is easily assumable that Man is naturally violent and predisposed to conflict.

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meatcakeman said:
If that were the case, then why should Man trust Man to govern Man?

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Because not all men kill each other; obviously, every man is different.

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meatcakeman said:
Sure, you could say that the government is an institution, thus, it transcends all parameters of naturalistic Man. But, all creations of Man are subject to Man, and facilitate Man's natural fallacies innately.

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Sure, but so what?

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Mr.Al said:
So...


Fundamentally, your position is that you trust government but not your fellow man.

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What is the fucking difference?

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Mr.Al said:
If government is strong enough to protect you, is it not also strong enough to oppress you?!?

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Mr.Al said:
Who would you trust more:


Someone who tells you to get strong enough to protect yourself and others.

Or someone who tells you that you don't have the right to protect yourself or others?

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That's obviously not enough information about the person who is telling me those things for me to know if they are trustworthy or not!

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Mr.Al said:
Get strong and stop looking to government like it is your savior.

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So what is the government's fundamental role in your eyes? Do you believe that there "should" not even be any government?

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Mr.Al said:
Growing up is about accepting personal responsibility (response ability)!

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I know this.

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Mr.Al said:
There is a big difference between trusting government or your fellow man.

I would trust the neighbor across the street with lethal weapons.  I know him personally.  He would probably risk his life to defend the people he lives near.  He has a conscience and is responsible.

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Mr.Al said:
There is a big difference between trusting government or your fellow man.

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What, do you believe that aliens are running our government?

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Mr.Al said:
I would trust the neighbor across the street with lethal weapons.  I know him personally.  He would probably risk his life to defend the people he lives near.  He has a conscience and is responsible.

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How do you know that many politicians are not this same way?

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Mr.Al said:
Government has historically been responsible for the massacre of countless people.

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Which government, ours?

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Mr.Al said:
It exhibits paranoid behavior and stockpiles a nasty variety of W.M.D.s

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Mr.Al said:
Cheney is the psychopath you typically find at high levels in government.

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Do you have any evidence to prove this statement?

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Mr.Al said:
I gave you some links for the most effective system (Russian Systema) for protecting your loved ones.

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Obviously, if that was literally the most effective system for every single country, then don't you think that every single country would have employed that system by now?

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Mr.Al said:
Government tells you to call the police...  The police might wait 15 minutes and then show up to document shit and call someone else to clean up the bloody mess.

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Mr.Al said:
The jerk off smiley doesn't say much bud.  Can you effectively use firearms?  Do you think you could defend your loved ones without any weapons at a moment's notice?

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Mr.Al said:
Do you do serious physical training so you would at least be somewhat prepared?

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Mr.Al said:
There is a difference between "knowing" what responsibility is and being a man who prepares.

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Prepares for what?

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zappaisgod said:

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Mr.Al said:
There is a big difference between trusting government or your fellow man.

I would trust the neighbor across the street with lethal weapons.  I know him personally.  He would probably risk his life to defend the people he lives near.  He has a conscience and is responsible.

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What if I move in next door and decide I like your type for a slave?

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Poid said:

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Mr.Al said:
Government has historically been responsible for the massacre of countless people.

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Which government, ours?

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Mr.Al said:
It exhibits paranoid behavior and stockpiles a nasty variety of W.M.D.s

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Can you give examples of this "paranoid behavior"?

So what if we have a "nasty variety" of weapons of mass destruction?

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Mr.Al said:
I gave you some links for the most effective system (Russian Systema) for protecting your loved ones.

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Obviously, if that was literally the most effective system for every single country, then don't you think that every single country would have employed that system by now?

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Mr.Al said:
Government tells you to call the police...  The police might wait 15 minutes and then show up to document shit and call someone else to clean up the bloody mess.

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I have been helped by the police, and they aren't always as half-assed in their efforts like you are making them out to be here.

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Mr.Al said:
There is a difference between "knowing" what responsibility is and being a man who prepares.

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Prepares for what?

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The statements you posted that I omitted are redundant and somewhat one-sided rhetorical questions so I won't respond to them.



Firstly, our government has killed thousands. Within 3 days, the U.S. government somehow accomplished the feat of killing roughly 230,000 Japanese civilians; either within that span of 3 days or by radiation in the long run.


Secondly, stockpiling WMD's isn't necessarily a bad thing. But the message behind it and ethics behind it are somewhat questionable. It's like this. "Hey, I see you as a threat, so I'm prepared to kill you and all of your family. So, don't fuck with me!" It's as if we are constantly on the lookout for trouble. It's as if we are beckoning for nations to even try and fuck with us, even though we know they probably won't. This sends a bad message out to the world. It doesn't send the message that most Americans think. It's not "Hey, Earth. Let's lend a helping hand! We are America!" Rather, it's: "You fuckers listen to me asshole. Fuck with me? You die. So you listen good."

Thirdly, the best, most effective way to do things are not always practiced in America. You are extremely ignorant for believing so. America likes to do things the most profitable way, not the best way. Think of vertical integration and Carnegie. He shaped the steel industry! He was a economical genius! But were his methods ergonomically sound? No. He bought out his opponents because of greed, not for the common good of his fellow man. Thus, his opponents died out, went bankrupt, or changed industries. If you ask me to prove this, which you seem to do a lot, go look for yourself.
He was already filthy rich anyways. Did he need to vertically integrate? No. He could have left things the same so everyone could have got a cut of the cheese. But he was hungry. Real hungry.

And as for your police statement, you and I are very aware of police brutality. Need I say more? When do you read about heroic police? Instead of asking others to provide proof, why don't you do some digging yourself?




Preparing for what? You are a walking paradox. Your views often find themselves in conflict.

Poid: "Can you prove such a statement?"

Oh, why of course!

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So what if we have a "nasty variety" of weapons of mass destruction?

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You advocate for the government when they prepare themselves even though you have no idea what they are preparing for. Yet, you'd rather question your fellow man? You, my friend, are an official bigot.

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I came back for seconds, bitch.

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Name one proven innocent person who was put to death under the death penalty statute in the US of A.  I am not the least bit interested in hearing about improper jury instructions as exoneration.  They are not.  Nor do retards, insane persons or minors.  Those do not constitute exoneration.  Since you say the system is prone to error, show me the errors.  Show me the innocent person executed in the modern age who was actually innocent of the crime.

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meatcakeman l said:
Firstly, our government has killed thousands. Within 3 days, the U.S. government somehow accomplished the feat of killing roughly 230,000 Japanese civilians; either within that span of 3 days or by radiation in the long run.

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Well duh, that was during wartime!

You re making it seem like the government is some sort of irresponsible blood-thirsty killing machine.

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meatcakeman l said:
Secondly, stockpiling WMD's isn't necessarily a bad thing. But the message behind it and ethics behind it are somewhat questionable. It's like this. "Hey, I see you as a threat, so I'm prepared to kill you and all of your family. So, don't fuck with me!" It's as if we are constantly on the lookout for trouble. It's as if we are beckoning for nations to even try and fuck with us, even though we know they probably won't. This sends a bad message out to the world.

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Most of the world that gets this "bad message" has stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction of their own.

Seriously, you think that having a 'Plan B' sends a bad message to the world?

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meatcakeman l said:
It doesn't send the message that most Americans think. It's not "Hey, Earth. Let's lend a helping hand! We are America!" Rather, it's: "You fuckers listen to me asshole. Fuck with me? You die. So you listen good."

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We help out the world plenty, and it's not like the only reason we have weapons of mass destruction is so we can taunt the rest of the world, that's just fucking silly!

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meatcakeman l said:
Thirdly, the best, most effective way to do things are not always practiced in America. You are extremely ignorant for believing so.

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Well, then I guess that I am not extremely ignorant, because I don't believe that at all.

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meatcakeman l said:
America likes to do things the most profitable way, not the best way. Think of vertical integration and Carnegie. He shaped the steel industry! He was a economical genius! But were his methods ergonomically sound? No. He bought out his opponents because of greed, not for the common good of his fellow man.

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Is Carnegie America?

Can you provide more examples to support your claim that "America likes to do things the most profitable way, not the best way."?

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meatcakeman l said:
And as for your police statement, you and I are very aware of police brutality. Need I say more? When do you read about heroic police? Instead of asking others to provide proof, why don't you do some digging yourself?

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Since when is the media inclined to broadcast good news?

Obviously, you need to provide sources for your claims; ' nuff said.

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meatcakeman l said:
Preparing for what? You are a walking paradox. Your views often find themselves in conflict.

Poid: "Can you prove such a statement?"

Oh, why of course!

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WTF?

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meatcakeman l said:
You advocate for the government when they prepare themselves even though you have no idea what they are preparing for.

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What I have no idea is about what you mean by "being prepared"; you just mentioned those words, yet you were extremely vague about what the fuck you were even talking about.

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meatcakeman l said:
Yet, you'd rather question your fellow man? You, my friend, are an official bigot.

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I'll question anybody, it's not like I'm extremely biased or anything!

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pothead_bob said:
If a person was given the death penalty based on testimony...

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pothead_bob said:
...and that testimony was later determined to be flawed (nothing to do with retarded jurors), would that not be considered making a mistake?

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It would, but can you give any examples where mistakes like this were made?

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Based on whose testimony?

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It would, but can you give any examples where mistakes like this were made?

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Thomas Griffin and Meeks Griffin (brothers), were prominent black farmers who lived in Chester County, South Carolina. They were executed via the electric chair in 1915 for 1913-murder of 75 year old John Q. Lewis, a Confederate veteran in Blackstock.

The Griffin brothers were convicted based on the accusations of another black man, John "Monk" Stevenson, who was known to be a small-time thief. Stevenson who was found in possession of the victim's pistol, was sentenced to life prison sentence in exchange for testifying against the brothers.

Two other blacks, Bart Davis and his wife Anna Davis were executed with the brothers. Dave Davis regularly stood guard outside Lewis' home while his wife was inside with Lewis. Those who have been researching the case think Anna Davis and Lewis had a sexual relationship.

The Griffin brothers, who were believed to be wealthiest blacks in the area, sold their 138-acre farms to pay for their defense against the accusations.

Over 100 people petitioned Gov. Richard Manning to commute the brother's sentence. The signatories included prominent people including Blackstock's mayor, a sheriff, two trial jurors and the grand jury foreman. Nevertheless, they were sent to the electric chair.[1]

Thomas Griffin and Meeks Griffin were pardoned in October 2009 after Tom Joyner sought the pardons of his great-uncles from state appeals court in Columbia, South Carolina. [2]

Joyner learned about his relatinoship to the Griffins through a research conducted for the PBS documentary, African American Lives 2, by Havard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr., which also traced 11 other relatives.[3]

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Cameron Todd Willingham (January 9, 1968, Carter County, Oklahoma – February 17, 2004, Huntsville Unit, Huntsville, Texas) was convicted of murder and executed for the deaths of his three young children via arson at the family home in Corsicana, Texas.

Willingham's case gained renewed attention in 2009 when an investigative report in The New Yorker,[1] drawing upon arson investigation experts and advances in fire science, purported to demonstrate that, contrary to the claims of the prosecution, there was no evidence that the house fire was intentionally set, and that the State of Texas may have executed an innocent man. According to an August 2009 investigative report by an expert hired by the Texas Forensic Science Commission, the original claims of arson were not sustainable; the Corsicana Fire Department disputes the findings, stating that the expert's report overlooked several key points in the record. The case has been further complicated by allegations that Governor of Texas Rick Perry has impeded the investigation by replacing four of the nine Commission members in an attempt to change the Commission's findings; Perry denies the charges stating that no fewer than nine appellate courts ruled against Willingham in his efforts to have his conviction overturned.

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Gerald Hurst, who has a Ph.D. in chemistry, examined the arson evidence compiled by Manuel Vasquez, the state deputy fire marshal. Hurst said that Vasquez was incorrect when he said that the extreme heat of the fire (as evidenced by a melted aluminum threshold) indicated that an accelerant was used, and said that experiments prove that wood and liquid accelerant fires can burn with equal heat. Hurst's own experiments showed that burning with an accelerant does not leave the kind of brown stains that Vasquez claimed were created that way. Hurst also said that the crazed glass that Vasquez said was caused by a liquid accelerant had been created by brush fires elsewhere. Experiments showed that crazed glass was caused not by rapid heating but by cooling, and that glass cooled by water from a fire hose was more likely to have a crazed or cracked pattern.

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During the penalty phase of the trial a prosecutor said that Willingham's tattoo of a skull and serpent fit the profile of a sociopath. Two medical experts confirmed the theory. A psychologist was asked to interpret Willingham's Iron Maiden poster, and said that a picture of a fist punching through a skull signified violence and death. He added that Willingham's Led Zeppelin poster of a fallen angel indicated "cultive-type" activities. Psychiatrist James Grigson said that Willingham was an "extremely severe sociopath" and was incurable. The same psychiatrist helped put another prisoner on death row who was later acquitted.[1]

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pothead_bob said:

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Based on whose testimony?

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Why does it matter?

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I don't fucking know, why would it matter whether or not you are presenting unclear points into a political debate?

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pothead_bob said:

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It would, but can you give any examples where mistakes like this were made?

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Thomas Griffin and Meeks Griffin (brothers), were prominent black farmers who lived in Chester County, South Carolina. They were executed via the electric chair in 1915 for 1913-murder of 75 year old John Q. Lewis, a Confederate veteran in Blackstock.

The Griffin brothers were convicted based on the accusations of another black man, John "Monk" Stevenson, who was known to be a small-time thief. Stevenson who was found in possession of the victim's pistol, was sentenced to life prison sentence in exchange for testifying against the brothers.

Two other blacks, Bart Davis and his wife Anna Davis were executed with the brothers. Dave Davis regularly stood guard outside Lewis' home while his wife was inside with Lewis. Those who have been researching the case think Anna Davis and Lewis had a sexual relationship.

The Griffin brothers, who were believed to be wealthiest blacks in the area, sold their 138-acre farms to pay for their defense against the accusations.

Over 100 people petitioned Gov. Richard Manning to commute the brother's sentence. The signatories included prominent people including Blackstock's mayor, a sheriff, two trial jurors and the grand jury foreman. Nevertheless, they were sent to the electric chair.[1]

Thomas Griffin and Meeks Griffin were pardoned in October 2009 after Tom Joyner sought the pardons of his great-uncles from state appeals court in Columbia, South Carolina. [2]

Joyner learned about his relatinoship to the Griffins through a research conducted for the PBS documentary, African American Lives 2, by Havard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr., which also traced 11 other relatives.[3]

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Griffin_%28black_farmer%29

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Cameron Todd Willingham (January 9, 1968, Carter County, Oklahoma ? February 17, 2004, Huntsville Unit, Huntsville, Texas) was convicted of murder and executed for the deaths of his three young children via arson at the family home in Corsicana, Texas.

Willingham's case gained renewed attention in 2009 when an investigative report in The New Yorker,[1] drawing upon arson investigation experts and advances in fire science, purported to demonstrate that, contrary to the claims of the prosecution, there was no evidence that the house fire was intentionally set, and that the State of Texas may have executed an innocent man. According to an August 2009 investigative report by an expert hired by the Texas Forensic Science Commission, the original claims of arson were not sustainable; the Corsicana Fire Department disputes the findings, stating that the expert's report overlooked several key points in the record. The case has been further complicated by allegations that Governor of Texas Rick Perry has impeded the investigation by replacing four of the nine Commission members in an attempt to change the Commission's findings; Perry denies the charges stating that no fewer than nine appellate courts ruled against Willingham in his efforts to have his conviction overturned.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Willingham

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Gerald Hurst, who has a Ph.D. in chemistry, examined the arson evidence compiled by Manuel Vasquez, the state deputy fire marshal. Hurst said that Vasquez was incorrect when he said that the extreme heat of the fire (as evidenced by a melted aluminum threshold) indicated that an accelerant was used, and said that experiments prove that wood and liquid accelerant fires can burn with equal heat. Hurst's own experiments showed that burning with an accelerant does not leave the kind of brown stains that Vasquez claimed were created that way. Hurst also said that the crazed glass that Vasquez said was caused by a liquid accelerant had been created by brush fires elsewhere. Experiments showed that crazed glass was caused not by rapid heating but by cooling, and that glass cooled by water from a fire hose was more likely to have a crazed or cracked pattern.

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During the penalty phase of the trial a prosecutor said that Willingham's tattoo of a skull and serpent fit the profile of a sociopath. Two medical experts confirmed the theory. A psychologist was asked to interpret Willingham's Iron Maiden poster, and said that a picture of a fist punching through a skull signified violence and death. He added that Willingham's Led Zeppelin poster of a fallen angel indicated "cultive-type" activities. Psychiatrist James Grigson said that Willingham was an "extremely severe sociopath" and was incurable. The same psychiatrist helped put another prisoner on death row who was later acquitted.[1]

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pothead_bob said:
Monk Stevenson had later admitted to a fellow inmate that his testimony was false.  He pointed the finger at the brothers because he thought they could afford good legal counsel.  He pointed the finger at them because he was offered a life sentence in return.  This is an older example, but it's interesting because the two men were actually exonerated (after being murdered by the state).

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Yeah, this is a much older example.

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pothead_bob said:
A more recent example is of Cameron Willingham, executed in 2003 for arson (and the subsequent murder of his three children).

Willingham was sentenced based on testimony of 'witnesses', 'psychologists', and the state fire marhsal.  The testimonies were contradictory, misleading, false, and downright ridiculous at times.

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And whose fault was it that this apparently innocent man was executed? Was it the system's fault, or was it the fault of the particular individuals involved? So much for "trust your fellow man"!


You are making the case that the death penalty system is prone to errors, and it would help your case here more if you could prove that most or even many cases are prone to errors like the ones shown in this case.

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I don't fucking know,

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Yeah, this is a much older example.

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You are making the case that the death penalty system is prone to errors...

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it would help your case here more if you could prove that most or even many cases are prone to errors like the ones shown in this case.

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And whose fault was it that this apparently innocent man was executed? Was it the system's fault, or was it the fault of the particular individuals involved?

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