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 Poid
deBunker
 
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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 Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: meatcakeman]
#11432007 - 11/11/09 08:44 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Poid said:
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Mr.Al said:
History has shown government to be a mass murderer. Capital punishment is merely a government monopoly on murder.
Not exactly; we have the right to murder others in the name of self-defense, no?
No. No one has the right to kill. But we all have the right to live. Thus, if our lives were to be threatened, we shall act accordingly.
Do you believe that, if our lives were to be threatened, that we would have the right to kill?
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
If the government has the right to kill, then why shouldn't we?
I don't believe in giving the government the right to kill just anyone; obviously, there would have to be a fair trial in order to make such a decision.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Somehow, they can play God and pick-and-choose who dies and who doesn't? And based on what context? Their own laws that they created?
The jury "plays "God"".
Based on the context of the jury's decision, which is itself based on the evidence presented in the courtroom.
The laws that the legislators which the People voted for created.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
The government can't even obey its own civil laws, so what is the point of living by them individually as citizens?
So you believe in total anarchy, or what? 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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 pothead_bob
Resident Pothead
Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 1,677
Loc: Your computer screen
Last seen: 3 days, 10 hours
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: zappaisgod]
#11432849 - 11/11/09 11:28 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
It is not "prone" to errors. They are stunningly rare.
Stunningly Rare?
Since 1976, there have been 1,178 Executions in the US (as of Nov 1, 2009).
From 1976 to the present, 133 death row inmates have been exonerated.
Guess that depends on your definition of rare, but considering theses are human lives we're talking about, I feel that 1 is too many. Especially when you consider that the alternative is a more cost effective life conviction without parole which accomplishes the same thing.
--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences. -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)
Speak well of your enemies. After all, you made them.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: pothead_bob]
#11433755 - 11/11/09 01:30 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
pothead_bob said:
...life conviction without parole...accomplishes the same thing.
How does that accomplish the same thing as the death penalty? 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 16 hours, 15 minutes
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: pothead_bob]
#11433794 - 11/11/09 01:37 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
pothead_bob said:
Quote:
It is not "prone" to errors. They are stunningly rare.
Stunningly Rare?
Since 1976, there have been 1,178 Executions in the US (as of Nov 1, 2009).
From 1976 to the present, 133 death row inmates have been exonerated.
Oh really? Link?Quote:
Guess that depends on your definition of rare, but considering theses are human lives we're talking about, I feel that 1 is too many. Especially when you consider that the alternative is a more cost effective life conviction without parole which accomplishes the same thing.
I am not unsympathetic to the argument that one mistake is too many. I am utterly opposed to the argument that it is expensive.
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pothead_bob
Resident Pothead
Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 1,677
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Last seen: 3 days, 10 hours
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: zappaisgod]
#11434680 - 11/11/09 03:41 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Oh really? Link?
Yeah, sorry...
for total number of executions (broken down by state)
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-united-states-1608-1976-state
for total number of exonerations
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-death-penalty
Quote:
I am not unsympathetic to the argument that one mistake is too many. I am utterly opposed to the argument that it is expensive.
I'm glad we see eye to eye on the first point, but between the amount of time people spend on death row and the appeals process, it is an expensive process.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
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No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences. -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)
Speak well of your enemies. After all, you made them.
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pothead_bob
Resident Pothead
Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 1,677
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Last seen: 3 days, 10 hours
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
#11434701 - 11/11/09 03:43 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
How does that accomplish the same thing as the death penalty?
Both things (death penalty or life in prison without parole) remove a dangerous person from society and protect the public.
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No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences. -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)
Speak well of your enemies. After all, you made them.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 16 hours, 15 minutes
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: pothead_bob]
#11435034 - 11/11/09 04:25 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Bob what I would like you to do is find me one example of someone who was wrongfully sentenced to death because they were innocent of the crime. And when you're done with that find me someone actually executed even though they were innocent. Not not guilty by reason of insufficient evidence or illegal search or anything like that. Just didn't do it at all.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: pothead_bob]
#11435537 - 11/11/09 05:14 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
pothead_bob said:
Quote:
How does that accomplish the same thing as the death penalty?
Both things (death penalty or life in prison without parole) remove a dangerous person from society and protect the public.
They both accomplish similar things, but that is not to say that they accomplish the exact same thing/s. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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pothead_bob
Resident Pothead
Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 1,677
Loc: Your computer screen
Last seen: 3 days, 10 hours
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: zappaisgod]
#11437949 - 11/11/09 10:15 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why would they be sentenced to death because they were innocent? Do you mean 'sentenced to death because they were believed to be guilty despite actually being innocent'? When you ask for me to find someone who was executed 'even though they were innocent' are you looking for an example where the legal system went through with the execution knowing the person was innocent? Or do you mean an example of a person who was executed and later proven innocent?
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No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences. -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)
Speak well of your enemies. After all, you made them.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: pothead_bob]
#11440852 - 11/12/09 12:33 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
pothead_bob said:
When you ask for me to find someone who was executed 'even though they were innocent' are you looking for an example where the legal system went through with the execution knowing the person was innocent? Or do you mean an example of a person who was executed and later proven innocent?
Why can't you give us examples for both. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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pothead_bob
Resident Pothead
Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 1,677
Loc: Your computer screen
Last seen: 3 days, 10 hours
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
#11440873 - 11/12/09 12:37 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Apparently you didn't understand my question. I wasn't asking whether I should find one or the other, I was looking for clarification on the original question asked. And when I get that clarification, I will search for the cases requested depending on what was actually being requested.
--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences. -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)
Speak well of your enemies. After all, you made them.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: pothead_bob]
#11440913 - 11/12/09 12:42 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
pothead_bob said:
I wasn't asking whether I should find one or the other, I was looking for clarification on the original question asked.
I clearly understood your question, and as this is my thread, I am personally asking you to provide examples for both situations where "someone...was executed 'even though they were innocent'", and situations where "a person...was executed and later proven innocent".
Quote:
pothead_bob said:
And when I get that clarification, I will search for the cases requested depending on what was actually being requested.
Like I said, I am personally requesting this; you don't have to wait for zappaisgod.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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pothead_bob
Resident Pothead
Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 1,677
Loc: Your computer screen
Last seen: 3 days, 10 hours
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
#11440954 - 11/12/09 12:48 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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your thread? What does that have to do with anything?
So then you're asking for me to find an instance where somebody was executed even though the officials in charge of the execution knew he was innocent, or what? Because, to me, that wouldn't make any sense, which was why I was asking for clarification in the first place.
And how about you tell me what that would prove to you if I fulfilled your requests and found cases?
--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences. -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)
Speak well of your enemies. After all, you made them.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: pothead_bob]
#11440970 - 11/12/09 12:50 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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You already know what I am requesting, so either you will provide what I asked you to provide, or you will not.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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pothead_bob
Resident Pothead
Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 1,677
Loc: Your computer screen
Last seen: 3 days, 10 hours
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
#11441433 - 11/12/09 01:49 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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If I knew what was being asked, I wouldn't have asked for clarification in the first place. However, in the case of your request, I'll choose 'not' since you're being rude about it. Of course, if you ask nicely as Zappa did, I'll likely go and search for the requested cases (if you clarify).
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No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences. -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)
Speak well of your enemies. After all, you made them.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: pothead_bob]
#11441441 - 11/12/09 01:50 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Alright then.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,279
Loc: el sol
Last seen: 6 days, 3 hours
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
#11445908 - 11/13/09 01:04 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Not exactly; we have the right to murder others in the name of self-defense, no?
No. No one has the right to kill. But we all have the right to live. Thus, if our lives were to be threatened, we shall act accordingly.
Do you believe that, if our lives were to be threatened, that we would have the right to kill?
Absolutely not. We have the right to live, though. Thus, according to our innate right, we have a right to defend it. That doesn't mean we have the right to kill, per se, but it does mean we can murder 'purposefully', as with self-defense. I never said we couldn't kill, but it's definitely not a 'right' in its general context.
Quote:
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
If the government has the right to kill, then why shouldn't we?
I don't believe in giving the government the right to kill just anyone; obviously, there would have to be a fair trial in order to make such a decision.
Murder isn't fair, nor just; ever. 'An eye for an eye' is archaic bullshit that is truly just a feeble, pride-driven attempt at justice. Really, contemporary justice is just a general opinion based on a selective mass of persons, AKA voters. Thus, it is highly opinionated. What one would condone as just might be unjust in the eyes of another. I believe the government should have a stance of 'involvement', rather than impersonal chastisement. In other words, the court should attempt to rehabilitate those whom lack moral judgment, or at least stow them away for eternity, rather than kill them to reciprocate their previous actions. And just because someone lost their family member doesn't mean the killer should lose his life. Once again, that is pride-driven, and prideful bigotry.
Quote:
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Somehow, they can play God and pick-and-choose who dies and who doesn't? And based on what context? Their own laws that they created?
The jury "plays "God"".
Based on the context of the jury's decision, which is itself based on the evidence presented in the courtroom.
The laws that the legislators which the People voted for created.
I'm glad you can regurgitate bland, irrelevant facts.
The jury plays God's 'storefront'. 'God', aka the federal government, has the last and final say in any legislative decision. They, specifically the judicial branch, decide whether or not the death penalty is just and constitutional. They also decide how this punishment should be implemented. What's funny is that the government hires Citizens to choose who dies and who doesn't within parameters specified by the government. Also, voters never directly vote on federal laws anyways. Federal legislation is solely dependent on the legislative branch of the federal government. Sure, voters vote for who gets elected to represent them federally, but the legislators themselves decide whether or not they want to fully represent their voters. Most voters are oblivious to the political climate anyways, so there really isn't any real oversight that regulates the legislators.
Quote:
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
The government can't even obey its own civil laws, so what is the point of living by them individually as citizens?
So you believe in total anarchy, or what?
No. But I do believe in a government that doesn't lie. So when the American government boasts of its 'equal rights', it better be able to prove that it can exercise what it advertises.
Edited by meatcakeman (11/13/09 01:35 AM)
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: meatcakeman]
#11447631 - 11/13/09 11:32 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Absolutely not. We have the right to live, though. Thus, according to our innate right, we have a right to defend it. That doesn't mean we have the right to kill, per se, but it does mean we can murder 'purposefully', as with self-defense. I never said we couldn't kill, but it's definitely not a 'right' in its general context.
What general context are you talking about? In a legal context, it is our right to kill in the name of self-defense.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Murder isn't fair, nor just; ever. 'An eye for an eye' is archaic bullshit that is truly just a feeble, pride-driven attempt at justice.
Do you have any evidence to prove that it is "truly (a)...pride-driven attempt at justice", or is this just your personal opinion regarding that philosophy?
It's not even merely about "An eye for an eye.", it's about keeping people safe.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Really, contemporary justice is just a general opinion based on a selective mass of persons, AKA voters. Thus, it is highly opinionated.
Do you not expect people to have opinions? 
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
What one would condone as just might be unjust in the eyes of another.
So what is your point? 
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
I believe the government should have a stance of 'involvement', rather than impersonal chastisement. In other words, the court should attempt to rehabilitate those whom lack moral judgment...
What the fuck? 
What the fuck does the court have to do with peoples' personal moral judgment?
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meatcakeman said:
...or at least stow them away for eternity...
, yeah, and the People will have to waste an infinite amount of money to keep these scumbags stowed away for eternity...
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meatcakeman said:
...rather than kill them to reciprocate their previous actions.
Why in the fuck do you think that that is the only, or even main reason why people agree with the death penalty?
We put them to death because they are dangerous, and a waste of money. 
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
I'm glad you can regurgitate bland, irrelevant facts.
What the fuck are you even talking about?
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
The jury plays God's 'storefront'. 'God', aka the federal government, has the last and final say in any legislative decision. They, specifically the judicial branch, decide whether or not the death penalty is just and constitutional.
And the Supreme Court has decided that it is constitutional.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
They also decide how this punishment should be implemented. What's funny is that the government hires Citizens to choose who dies and who doesn't within parameters specified by the government.
Why is this funny? 
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Also, voters never directly vote on federal laws anyways. Federal legislation is solely dependent on the legislative branch of the federal government. Sure, voters vote for who gets elected to represent them federally, but the legislators themselves decide whether or not they want to fully represent their voters. Most voters are oblivious to the political climate anyways, so there really isn't any real oversight that regulates the legislators.
What evidence do you have to support your statement "Most voters are oblivious to the political climate anyways..."???
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
No. But I do believe in a government that doesn't lie. So when the American government boasts of its 'equal rights', it better be able to prove that it can exercise what it advertises.
Then go disobey the government already. 
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (11/13/09 02:46 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 16 hours, 15 minutes
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: pothead_bob]
#11447964 - 11/13/09 12:41 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
pothead_bob said:
Quote:
It is not "prone" to errors. They are stunningly rare.
Stunningly Rare?
Since 1976, there have been 1,178 Executions in the US (as of Nov 1, 2009).
From 1976 to the present, 133 death row inmates have been exonerated.
Name one proven innocent person who was put to death under the death penalty statute in the US of A. I am not the least bit interested in hearing about improper jury instructions as exoneration. They are not. Nor do retards, insane persons or minors. Those do not constitute exoneration. Since you say the system is prone to error, show me the errors. Show me the innocent person executed in the modern age who was actually innocent of the crime.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,279
Loc: el sol
Last seen: 6 days, 3 hours
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
#11450334 - 11/13/09 07:16 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Absolutely not. We have the right to live, though. Thus, according to our innate right, we have a right to defend it. That doesn't mean we have the right to kill, per se, but it does mean we can murder 'purposefully', as with self-defense. I never said we couldn't kill, but it's definitely not a 'right' in its general context.
What general context are you talking about? In a legal context, it is our right to kill in the name of self-defense.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Murder isn't fair, nor just; ever. 'An eye for an eye' is archaic bullshit that is truly just a feeble, pride-driven attempt at justice.
Do you have any evidence to prove that it is "truly (a)...pride-driven attempt at justice", or is this just your personal opinion regarding that philosophy?
It's not even merely about "An eye for an eye.", it's about keeping people safe.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Really, contemporary justice is just a general opinion based on a selective mass of persons, AKA voters. Thus, it is highly opinionated.
Do you not expect people to have opinions?
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
What one would condone as just might be unjust in the eyes of another.
So what is your point?
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
I believe the government should have a stance of 'involvement', rather than impersonal chastisement. In other words, the court should attempt to rehabilitate those whom lack moral judgment...
What the fuck?
What the fuck does the court have to do with peoples' personal moral judgment?
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
...or at least stow them away for eternity...
, yeah, and the People will have to waste an infinite amount of money to keep these scumbags stowed away for eternity...
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
...rather than kill them to reciprocate their previous actions.
Why in the fuck do you think that that is the only, or even main reason why people agree with the death penalty?
We put them to death because they are dangerous, and a waste of money.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
I'm glad you can regurgitate bland, irrelevant facts.
What the fuck are you even talking about?
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
The jury plays God's 'storefront'. 'God', aka the federal government, has the last and final say in any legislative decision. They, specifically the judicial branch, decide whether or not the death penalty is just and constitutional.
And the Supreme Court has decided that it is constitutional.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
They also decide how this punishment should be implemented. What's funny is that the government hires Citizens to choose who dies and who doesn't within parameters specified by the government.
Why is this funny?
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Also, voters never directly vote on federal laws anyways. Federal legislation is solely dependent on the legislative branch of the federal government. Sure, voters vote for who gets elected to represent them federally, but the legislators themselves decide whether or not they want to fully represent their voters. Most voters are oblivious to the political climate anyways, so there really isn't any real oversight that regulates the legislators.
What evidence do you have to support your statement "Most voters are oblivious to the political climate anyways..."???
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
No. But I do believe in a government that doesn't lie. So when the American government boasts of its 'equal rights', it better be able to prove that it can exercise what it advertises.
Then go disobey the government already.
This is obviously a debate of ethics and morality, not a political discussion. So, there really is no point for me to further our conversation, since no progress is occurring, and no point is being made. Simply put, debating with you about this is just a dead end, not an insightful exchange of intellect.
I don't judge you for your opinions for they are just that; opinions. But I will say one last thing before I personally eradicate myself from this thread:
If the government is established to protect ourselves from each other, then it is easily assumable that Man is naturally violent and predisposed to conflict. If that were the case, then why should Man trust Man to govern Man? Sure, you could say that the government is an institution, thus, it transcends all parameters of naturalistic Man. But, all creations of Man are subject to Man, and facilitate Man's natural fallacies innately.
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大开眼界
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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