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 zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 19 hours, 40 minutes
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 Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11405714 - 11/07/09 02:29 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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I thought the US did that?
There is another unpleasant point for all the Shah haters. He had a rather large amount of support among the Iranian people. The CIA did not install the Shah in some government takeover. They nudged. There was a lot of support there already to exploit.
The original point I made was about someone asserting that helping the Shah was a foreign policy mistake by the US. That case is impossible to make.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 6 months, 12 days
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I think the United States government believed there was a credible threat of Iran falling to communism.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 19 hours, 40 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11405738 - 11/07/09 02:34 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
I think the United States government believed there was a credible threat of Iran falling to communism.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours
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I guess you wouldn't want to adress the question I asked you about Muslim conflicts with Non-Muslims that don't have anything to do with America, because that wouldn't fit your agenda. Right?
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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 EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,451
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to zappa: Neither Qassam nor Mossedegh were "Soviet puppets;" they were nationalists.
Quote:
I guess you wouldn't want to address the question I asked you about Muslim conflicts with Non-Muslims that don't have anything to do with America, because that wouldn't fit your agenda. Right?
No, not really, & for two reasons:
1. If two backwards groups people are fighting each other across an ocean for reasons that go back hundreds of years, it's not my business. When have any people from a backwards group (whether Muslim or not) from "the Old World" come over to attack a Latin American nation (which, by the way, have majorities that profess to be Christian also)?
2. More importantly, I'm not going to get into extraneous issues with someone whose understanding of the world is as flawed as your is. You said "the enemy" is in Iraq so we had to go there. No shit al-Qaeda came into Iraq (after the invasion) to fight the Americans. You could justify invading any Muslim majority country with that (lack of) logic. Prior to that al-Qaeda was not in Iraq because a) they had virtually no support there (as evidenced by their quick demise when they offended local Sunni customs/tribal authorities) and b) Saddam's government didn't want them there.
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Every part of this country is sacred to my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove has been hallowed by some fond memory or some sad experience of my tribe.
Even the rocks... as they swelter in the sun along the silent seashore in solemn grandeur thrill with memories of past events... and the very dust under your feet responds more lovingly to our footsteps than to yours, because it is the ashes of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch, for the soil is rich with the life of our kindred.
And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among white men shall have become a myth, these shores shall swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe.
- Chief Seattle
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 6 months, 12 days
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11407729 - 11/07/09 07:37 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Redstorm said:
I think the United States government believed there was a credible threat of Iran falling to communism.
So fucking what? Are you trying to prove a point quoting this? Just because the US thought that Iran could fall to the Soviets doesn't mean he was a Soviet puppet. As you may be well aware of, the Soviets often didn't give two shits about the illusion of legitimacy in the gaining of control of a country.
Plus, just because the US thought so didn't mean they were right. God knows they fuck up enough that they shouldn't escape scrutiny.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 19 hours, 40 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11407812 - 11/07/09 07:47 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh I think you are very wrong about the Soviets. It was not by dint of arms or the threat of them that they were contained. Nor was that their only means of control.
I will contend that the era from 1950 to 1985 was a death battle with the Soviet Union. Particularly perilous in the 50's.
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the_conservatarian
Stranger
Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 104
Last seen: 2 years, 28 days
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11408866 - 11/07/09 11:36 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom for the media, open journalism, women's rights, equality of races, multiple viewpoints, minority rights, voting without fear, etc...
Oh sorry, I forget that the current fascists around the world would prefer to eliminate the above inconveniences...
The U.S.A disagrees with disgusting and vile fascism - so they help Israel. Good for them! Those currently aiming to destroy Israel represent a disgusting and vile plague to the Earth.
And that's why the U.S. supports Israel. Any questions?
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
No, not really, & for two reasons:
1. If two backwards groups people are fighting each other across an ocean for reasons that go back hundreds of years, it's not my business. When have any people from a backwards group (whether Muslim or not) from "the Old World" come over to attack a Latin American nation (which, by the way, have majorities that profess to be Christian also)?
Did you think I didn't know that the majority of Latin America is Catholic. Everyone knows that. It's common knowledge. And where do you come from that you can look down at America and call us backwards? If where you come form is so great, why don't you tell us about it, and show pride in where you came from? It's not because you country has an embarrassing track record is it?
This is just a wild guess, but I'll bet your one of those communist loving Latin American men. I'll bet that you have a hard on for Che Guevara, and Fidel Castro. You probably stroke yourself while your looking at pictures of Hugo Chavez.
What qualities does the communism, and socialism of Latin America have that makes you think it is so great. When you look at these leftist Governments there is insane amount of greed, and corruption. They have a horrible record. Their people live in poverty, and are corrupted by an elite. And you know as well as do that the elite that exploit them is not English speaking Americans. It's their own leadership.
I'm an American Hispanic, and America has made me Rich.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
2. More importantly, I'm not going to get into extraneous issues with someone whose understanding of the world is as flawed as your is. You said "the enemy" is in Iraq so we had to go there. No shit al-Qaeda came into Iraq (after the invasion) to fight the Americans. You could justify invading any Muslim majority country with that (lack of) logic. Prior to that al-Qaeda was not in Iraq because a) they had virtually no support there (as evidenced by their quick demise when they offended local Sunni customs/tribal authorities) and b) Saddam's government didn't want them there.
I never said "the enemy was in Iraq so we had to go there." because that is an incorrect statement. What I said was
Quote:
I personally fough Al-Quidea on Iraqi soil. My enemy was definitly present while I was there.
Thats a little different then what you tried to twist my words into. Anyways, I fought Al Queada there.
You have not laid one single conclusive peice of evidence to show that I've said one lie of false statement let alone shown that I have a flawed understanding of the world. You've only shown that you have a differing opinion.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11409837 - 11/08/09 06:42 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Plus, just because the US thought so didn't mean they were right. God knows they fuck up enough that they shouldn't escape scrutiny.
When it comes to international conflict it is seldom about right, and wrong. It's usually more about conflicting interests. In wich case the terms right, and wrong don't really apply.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
Edited by Simplicitry (11/08/09 06:42 AM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,451
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Quote:
And where do you come from that you can look down at America and call us backwards? If where you come form is so great, why don't you tell us about it, and show pride in where you came from? It's not because you country has an embarrassing track record is it?
Actually, I was talking about tribal/ethnic/religious conflicts somewhere in the "Old World" (i.e Asia, Africa, & Europe). That being said, I do think I a significant portion of the U.S. population (namely those who attend Sarah Palin rallies, think that the earth is less than 10,000, & believe Bush II ordered the Iraq invasion because it was the will of their god as Palin once said in an Alaskan church) is backwards.
I come from what is now the United States. As such the existing, arbitrary borders on a map of the Western Hemisphere don't mean anything to me in a personal sense.
Quote:
This is just a wild guess, but I'll bet your one of those communist loving Latin American men. I'll bet that you have a hard on for Che Guevara, and Fidel Castro. You probably stroke yourself while your looking at pictures of Hugo Chavez.
I'm gonna have to quit this thread... the maturity & sophistication of the insults are too much for me to handle. Hey, I bet when Evo Morales, former head of a coca growers union & the 1st fully indigenous head of state in the Americas since colonialism, gave a speech a few years ago in/around the village of Valle Grande to commemorate the 40th anniversary of Ernesto's execution... I bet the tens of thousands of Native people in attendance were wearing traditional attire so that the could inconspicuously masturbate.
P.S. Here's what you said...
Quote:
But I completely disagree with this logic because the Islamic enemy operates, and is supported by many Muslim Countries. In this way the conflict transends the borders of the enemies countries. I personally fough Al-Quidea on Iraqi soil. My enemy was definitly present while I was there. The Islamic enemy does not unite under a flag of a common country, They come from many different countries. So, this is not a convevtional war in that sense, and the same rules don't apply.
... in which you appear to be trying to justify the Iraq invasion by saying that its government was supporting al Qaeda. Then when some people resist the occupation militantly for whatever reason, you paint them with a wide brush as being "the Islamic enemy" as if Ba'athists or Shia militias are equated with al-Qaeda. Yeah, keep telling yourself that it's only ideological al-Qaeda fanatics who would fight against you when you invade a country that didn't have anything to do with 9-11, & that you are justified in killing anyone who resists you, along with the "collateral damage," when you do such.
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Every part of this country is sacred to my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove has been hallowed by some fond memory or some sad experience of my tribe.
Even the rocks... as they swelter in the sun along the silent seashore in solemn grandeur thrill with memories of past events... and the very dust under your feet responds more lovingly to our footsteps than to yours, because it is the ashes of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch, for the soil is rich with the life of our kindred.
And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among white men shall have become a myth, these shores shall swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe.
- Chief Seattle
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 Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,380
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 minute, 46 seconds
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A reminder to all that this thread is about US support of Israel. Specifically, to quote the opening post in the thread -
Quote:
Why does the USA support Israel's oppressive, racist, elitist regime?
Let's try to reel this thing back in from its current position way out in the weeds, folks.
Phred
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Actually, I was talking about tribal/ethnic/religious conflicts somewhere in the "Old World" (i.e Asia, Africa, & Europe). That being said, I do think I a significant portion of the U.S. population (namely those who attend Sarah Palin rallies, think that the earth is less than 10,000, & believe Bush II ordered the Iraq invasion because it was the will of their god as Palin once said in an Alaskan church) is backwards.
Fuck Sarah Palin.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
I'm gonna have to quit this thread... the maturity & sophistication of the insults are too much for me to handle. Hey, I bet when Evo Morales, former head of a coca growers union & the 1st fully indigenous head of state in the Americas since colonialism, gave a speech a few years ago in/around the village of Valle Grande to commemorate the 40th anniversary of Ernesto's execution... I bet the tens of thousands of Native people in attendance were wearing traditional attire so that the could inconspicuously masturbate.
You must have no sense of humor. You should lighten up. It's politics. People are going to say things you don't like. Sounds like I hit a nerve though. I'm guessing I hit that pretty much right on the head.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
... in which you appear to be trying to justify the Iraq invasion by saying that its government was supporting al Qaeda. Then when some people resist the occupation militantly for whatever reason, you paint them with a wide brush as being "the Islamic enemy" as if Ba'athists or Shia militias are equated with al-Qaeda. Yeah, keep telling yourself that it's only ideological al-Qaeda fanatics who would fight against you when you invade a country that didn't have anything to do with 9-11, & that you are justified in killing anyone who resists you, along with the "collateral damage," when you do such.
Actually I never tried to justify the invasioin of Iraq. I personally don't agree with us being there (for completely different reasons then you I guarantee). I actually don't agree with the way America is fighting the war at all. It's not that I don't think we should be fighting in a war against these people. I just don't agree with the fashion in wich we are doing it. But, I don't have control over those decisions.
What I said is was that I fought Al Queada on Iraqi soil (that's a true statement). I didn't try to justify anything. Anything extra were words you tried putting in mouth. I speak fine for myself thank you.
Collateral damage is an unfortunate reality.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
Edited by Simplicitry (11/12/09 12:13 PM)
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 18 days
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11412606 - 11/08/09 04:19 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
Why does the USA support Israel's oppressive, racist, elitist regime?
I'd like to know your opinion.
This is important because it's why "the terrorists" don't like the USA, and it ties in to world war one, two, and possibly three.
because AIPAC and many other Israeli-funded lobbying groups here in America have more say than our own people do... that is just one reason.
Israel has got quite a bit of control of America, it is very sad...
we give so many billions to them each year, while Americans here become more jobless and more homeless than ever... it is sad that we are forced to throw more gas into the fire...
alls we can do is spread awareness and resist it the best we can. i hope to help implement some policies someday that will rid us of the parasite that is Israel... i totally support the Jewish people there, i just dont think that we should be giving them near as much money as we are right now, in this economic recession. it is unfair to our own people, and unfair to all the other countries that do not receive near that amount of money from us.
just my 2 cents
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Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness. 
 9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,194
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 4 hours, 54 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: PookztA]
#11412778 - 11/08/09 04:42 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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> Israel has got quite a bit of control of America, it is very sad...
So do many other countries; China for example.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 18 days
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Seuss]
#11415475 - 11/08/09 10:33 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
> Israel has got quite a bit of control of America, it is very sad...
So do many other countries; China for example.
does China have a huge lobbying group here, like Israel does? AIPAC is huge... within the last 12 months they paid for the trips of 12 or so congressman to Israel to help them see "Israel's side".... more than just lobbying, direct influence on Congress...
does China have that? if so, what organizations are behind that influence?
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Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,194
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 4 hours, 54 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: PookztA]
#11416804 - 11/09/09 03:56 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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> does China have a huge lobbying group here
Yes, in the form of US Treasury holdings that they own. Because of these, they have much more sway over the US than some little lobbying group.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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llama farmer
Mushroom Newb
Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 132
Loc: Aus
Last seen: 4 months, 26 days
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Quote:
the_conservatarian said:
Democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom for the media, open journalism, women's rights, equality of races, multiple viewpoints, minority rights, voting without fear, etc...
Oh sorry, I forget that the current fascists around the world would prefer to eliminate the above inconveniences...
The U.S.A disagrees with disgusting and vile fascism - so they help Israel. Good for them! Those currently aiming to destroy Israel represent a disgusting and vile plague to the Earth.
And that's why the U.S. supports Israel. Any questions?
Yes here is one... are you a master of sarcasm or delusion?
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The labourer who tends a garden is perhaps in a truer sense its owner than the listless voluptuary that enjoys its fruits
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the_conservatarian
Stranger
Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 104
Last seen: 2 years, 28 days
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Quote:
llama farmer said:
Quote:
the_conservatarian said:
Democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom for the media, open journalism, women's rights, equality of races, multiple viewpoints, minority rights, voting without fear, etc...
Oh sorry, I forget that the current fascists around the world would prefer to eliminate the above inconveniences...
The U.S.A disagrees with disgusting and vile fascism - so they help Israel. Good for them! Those currently aiming to destroy Israel represent a disgusting and vile plague to the Earth.
And that's why the U.S. supports Israel. Any questions?
Yes here is one... are you a master of sarcasm or delusion?
Heh, a little bit of both! But I like to mix it up with a strong bit of reality as well. =)
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