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 Poid
deBunker
 
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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 Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Mr.Al]
#11370685 - 11/02/09 03:25 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Your conscience is the internal compass that can clue you in to the right thing.
There is no such thing as "the right thing"; one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. 
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
It is pretty obvious that government is growing out of control.
Can you please be specific?
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
It is a power hunger leviathan that cares not for people's inalienable rights. Hence again, government is godless. Disrespecting inalienable rights is certainly godless behavior.
I don't feel too oppressed, the main thing I want the government to do is protect me from the random crazies in the world.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Government does not have that internal compass that individual people have. It projects it's dangerous lack of discernment regarding right from wrong onto the populace.
Please prove specific examples for us.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
My position is that government needs to be controlled, not the people.
Did you not vote or something?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,012
Loc: Boston
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
#11370802 - 11/02/09 03:36 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Another way to say it is that the governments role is to protect individuals from the initiation of force by other individuals.
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 meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,279
Loc: el sol
Last seen: 6 days, 23 minutes
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
#11370972 - 11/02/09 03:56 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
You want government to have a monopoly on murder.
I want government to [prevent murder from ever occurring, by any means necessary. 
By any means? Does that include murder?
So do you not believe in the death penalty??? 
Honestly, no I do not. Legalizing the death penalty allows the government to decide who deserves to live and who deserves to die. They're practically playing God themselves. That's fucking despicable.
Life sentences are another matter.
And the death penalty is not the only way a government can kill. Giving weapons to Israel is a blatant gesture of supporting murder. And Israel is just one example of many.
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大开眼界
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 152,651
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: meatcakeman]
#11371063 - 11/02/09 04:11 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Legalizing the death penalty allows the government to decide who deserves to live and who deserves to die.
it's the jury that decides guilt or innocence, not the government, if
they're found guilty it was by a jury of people like ourselves, not by
the president or johnny congressman
Quote:
And the death penalty is not the only way a government can kill. Giving weapons to Israel is a blatant gesture of supporting murder. And Israel is just one example of many.
like the government doesnt give bullets to iraqi insurgents 
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,279
Loc: el sol
Last seen: 6 days, 23 minutes
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11371177 - 11/02/09 04:24 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Legalizing the death penalty allows the government to decide who deserves to live and who deserves to die.
it's the jury that decides guilt or innocence, not the government, if
they're found guilty it was by a jury of people like ourselves, not by
the president or johnny congressman
Quote:
And the death penalty is not the only way a government can kill. Giving weapons to Israel is a blatant gesture of supporting murder. And Israel is just one example of many.
like the government doesnt give bullets to iraqi insurgents
Sure, the jury has the last say whether or not someone gets murdered using taxpayers' dollars, but the government had the initial OK for it to even be legal. If it weren't legal, it wouldn't exist. And legality lies within the legislative and judicial powers of the government.
And yes. The government does a lot of sketchy shit. That's my point. We give others the means to kill and pose it as a good cause, or anti-terrorism; any bullshit the government can conjure up and spew. But Poid seems to believe that preventing murder by committing murder is rational. I am simply attempting to refute that claim.
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大开眼界
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 6 months, 12 days
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Mr.Al]
#11371243 - 11/02/09 04:35 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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I am godless, yet I do not believe in the things you stated above.
There is nothing inherent in not believing in fairy tales which makes you more susceptible to violating others' rights. In fact, quite the opposite could be debated.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 28 days, 4 hours
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
#11371367 - 11/02/09 04:55 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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It should be obvious to you that big government has bankrupted America.
You don't feel too oppressed?!?
No amount of oppression is acceptable.
You are mistaken if you think that voting stops shenanigans in government.
I mean that laws are needed to keep government in check.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 28 days, 4 hours
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Redstorm]
#11371396 - 11/02/09 05:00 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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You are free to believe what you wish to. I do not have any problems with atheists. Some of them live by the idea of doing the right thing without fear of punishment or hope for reward. We tend to see what we want to see.
My point is that government, which has shown itself to be immoral and capable of heinous acts on a mass scale, should be under control of the people (not the other way around). It was that point of view that made the U.S. a constitutional republic. Government must keep it's place, it is not above the law.
Edited by Mr.Al (11/02/09 05:02 PM)
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: meatcakeman]
#11372099 - 11/02/09 06:44 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Another way to say it is that the governments role is to protect individuals from the initiation of force by other individuals.
Whatever floats your boat. 
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Poid said:
So do you not believe in the death penalty???
They're practically playing God themselves. That's fucking despicable.
I think people like McVeigh are despicable.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Life sentences are another matter.
They sure are! 
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
And the death penalty is not the only way a government can kill. Giving weapons to Israel is a blatant gesture of supporting murder. And Israel is just one example of many.
We're not talking about foreign politics here, we're talking about the fact that I believe the government needs to keep each of us safe from each other, and that this is it's main function.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Legalizing the death penalty allows the government to decide who deserves to live and who deserves to die.
it's the jury that decides guilt or innocence, not the government, if
they're found guilty it was by a jury of people like ourselves, not by
the president or johnny congressman
Quote:
And the death penalty is not the only way a government can kill. Giving weapons to Israel is a blatant gesture of supporting murder. And Israel is just one example of many.
like the government doesnt give bullets to iraqi insurgents
Sure, the jury has the last say whether or not someone gets murdered using taxpayers' dollars, but the government had the initial OK for it to even be legal. If it weren't legal, it wouldn't exist. And legality lies within the legislative and judicial powers of the government.
And yes. The government does a lot of sketchy shit. That's my point. We give others the means to kill and pose it as a good cause, or anti-terrorism; any bullshit the government can conjure up and spew. But Poid seems to believe that preventing murder by committing murder is rational.
Yes, I believe that if a thug was pointing a loaded pistol at my face, a police officer (i.e.- the government) murdering said thug would be rational.
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,279
Loc: el sol
Last seen: 6 days, 23 minutes
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
#11373418 - 11/02/09 09:27 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Another way to say it is that the governments role is to protect individuals from the initiation of force by other individuals.
Whatever floats your boat.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Poid said:
So do you not believe in the death penalty???
They're practically playing God themselves. That's fucking despicable.
I think people like McVeigh are despicable.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Life sentences are another matter.
They sure are!
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
And the death penalty is not the only way a government can kill. Giving weapons to Israel is a blatant gesture of supporting murder. And Israel is just one example of many.
We're not talking about foreign politics here, we're talking about the fact that I believe the government needs to keep each of us safe from each other, and that this is it's main function.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Legalizing the death penalty allows the government to decide who deserves to live and who deserves to die.
it's the jury that decides guilt or innocence, not the government, if
they're found guilty it was by a jury of people like ourselves, not by
the president or johnny congressman
Quote:
And the death penalty is not the only way a government can kill. Giving weapons to Israel is a blatant gesture of supporting murder. And Israel is just one example of many.
like the government doesnt give bullets to iraqi insurgents
Sure, the jury has the last say whether or not someone gets murdered using taxpayers' dollars, but the government had the initial OK for it to even be legal. If it weren't legal, it wouldn't exist. And legality lies within the legislative and judicial powers of the government.
And yes. The government does a lot of sketchy shit. That's my point. We give others the means to kill and pose it as a good cause, or anti-terrorism; any bullshit the government can conjure up and spew. But Poid seems to believe that preventing murder by committing murder is rational.
Yes, I believe that if a thug was pointing a loaded pistol at my face, a police officer (i.e.- the government) murdering said thug would be rational.
So, you don't like thugs or McVeigh's. Understandable. But when you talk about government, you can't focus on domestic policies. That's absurd. That's like saying you only like to look at the head of a coin and not the tail because you think it's more important. 
When you bring up government, you have to expect a discussion on global affairs. If not, the discussion is pretty much worthless. And for you to condone the death penalty and not the support of mass murder, your stance is looking pretty hypocritical. You're just sitting there and refuting our claims with opinions.
Let's hear something from you. Let's hear your perspective. Why do you believe in the death penalty? Why do you disregard foreign policies? Why do you think the fundamental role of the government is to protect ourselves from each other?
--------------------
大开眼界
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,279
Loc: el sol
Last seen: 6 days, 23 minutes
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: meatcakeman]
#11373482 - 11/02/09 09:34 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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And if the government (i.e. the police officer) killed the thug with the loaded pistol in front of your face, it saved a life by taking one.
1 - 1 = 0
If the government didn't do anything about it, then you'd die and the thug would live.
1 - 1 = 0
It's the same thing. The only argument here is just a debate of ethics/morality. Who's to say that you deserve to live more than the thug? What if the thug had to make ends by robbing you of your cash to feed 4 other mouths at home? What if you were planning on robbing someone, but he happened to get you first?
Situations are situations, but principle never changes. You kill a man means you take a life. It doesn't matter who shot the bullet, policeman or gangster. If you shoot someone dead, you are a murderer. End of story. That is a fact and not an opinion.
And granting the right to kill to the government is just as deadly, if not substantially more, as giving a thug a gun.
--------------------
大开眼界
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 6 months, 12 days
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: meatcakeman]
#11374918 - 11/03/09 05:21 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Situations are situations, but principle never changes. You kill a man means you take a life. It doesn't matter who shot the bullet, policeman or gangster. If you shoot someone dead, you are a murderer. End of story. That is a fact and not an opinion.
Even in cases of self-defense?
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 28 days, 4 hours
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Redstorm]
#11375355 - 11/03/09 07:49 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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The way that I look at it is: It's not just your life at stake. If there is a dangerous individual who is willing to attack you with lethal force for no good reason, it follows that he would do the same to another.
Destroying that which is a threat to others is a just act.
Anything less is condoning the murder of innocents.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Mr.Al]
#11375526 - 11/03/09 08:23 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
meatcakeman said:
And for you to condone the death penalty and not the support of mass murder, your stance is looking pretty hypocritical.
I condone the mass murder of thugs, not innocent people who are living in peace.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Why do you believe in the death penalty?
You know, I haven't put too much thought into why I agree with the death penalty; I could say that it is an agreeable "policy", for lack of a better term, because of its deterrent effects, but it wouldn't deter suicidal martyrs. It would deter a good deal of thugs who want to kill but don't want to die, but that's about where its power as a deterrent ends. 
I believe that I should be able to kill another person in cases of self-defense, and in cases where I could save another person's life; by imposing the death penalty on a thug, the country at large is defending itself and all its citizens' lives.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Why do you disregard foreign policies?
I don't.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Why do you think the fundamental role of the government is to protect ourselves from each other?
Why the else would I want such a powerful entity to exist? Earth isn't a safe place, my friend. 
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
The way that I look at it is: It's not just your life at stake. If there is a dangerous individual who is willing to attack you with lethal force for no good reason, it follows that he would do the same to another.
Destroying that which is a threat to others is a just act.
Anything less is condoning the murder of innocents.
So where are we in disagreement here?
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 28 days, 4 hours
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
#11375549 - 11/03/09 08:28 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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We are in disagreement because I see the individual as having the discernment to apply deadly force correctly against a threat. It is at the time that the threat becomes evident.
Government kills innocent people. Government does not apply deadly for with the necessary restraint.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Mr.Al]
#11375584 - 11/03/09 08:35 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
We are in disagreement because I see the individual as having the discernment to apply deadly force correctly against a threat. It is at the time that the threat becomes evident.
We agree on this point.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Government kills innocent people.
I don't agree with the government doing this.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Government does not apply deadly for with the necessary restraint.
It doesn't have to.
So, again, where are we in disagreement?
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 28 days, 4 hours
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
#11375591 - 11/03/09 08:37 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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We are in disagreement because I see that government has been irresponsible with deadly force and therefore I don't see why it should be trusted with it.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Mr.Al]
#11375612 - 11/03/09 08:41 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm speaking about my beliefs, no? We are speaking in hypotheticals in this thread, my friend. 
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 28 days, 4 hours
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
#11375658 - 11/03/09 08:50 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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I feel that it is naive to trust even a "hypothetical" government.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Mr.Al]
#11375699 - 11/03/09 08:56 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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So you condone anarchy?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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