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zappaisgod said:
All the Israelis ever wanted was a tiny little slice (slightly smaller than New Jersey) of resource-free desert shithole.  They didn't want the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula or the Golan Heights.

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Satival said:
Just an observation...

In their latest attack on Gaza city 13 Jews were killed, most of them soldiers vs over 13,000 Palestinians, with a larger portion of civilian casualties. The Israeli military insists that they were justified and that no war crimes took place.

So i suppose that 1 Jew is worth 1000 Palestinians then?

Don't get me wrong, I believe that Islam DOES represent a real threat towards progressive and not-insane society, but the same goes for fundamentalist Christians too. Christians and Muslims share very similar belief systems, they don't even realize it, they view each other as a different group and, somewhat naturally, view the other as the inferior.

If Palestinians were white christians this shit would NEVER happen. Western media would condemn this shit outright. American people only tolerate this now because they are either stupid or actually don't care.
I suspect the latter.

Personally I think Israel switches to overkill-occupy-mode way too easily. The US enables them.

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"Hotchkiss[10] identified what he called the seven deadly sins of narcissism:

  1. Shamelessness - Shame is the feeling that lurks beneath all unhealthy narcissism, and the inability to process shame in healthy ways.
  2. Magical thinking - Narcissists see themselves as perfect using distortion and illusion known as magical thinking. They also use projection to shame dump onto others.
  3. Arrogance - If a narcissist is feeling deflated, he can reinflate himself by diminishing, debasing or degrading somebody else.
  4. Envy - If the narcissist's need to secure a sense of superiority meets an obstacle because of somebody else, he neutralises it using contempt to minimise the other person's ability
  5. Entitlement - Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves uniquely special. Any failure to comply will be considered an attack on their superiority and the perpetrator is considered to ben "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.
  6. Exploitation - can take many forms but always involves the using of others without regards for their feelings or interests. Often the other is in a subservient position where resistance would be difficult or even impossible. Sometimes the subservience is not so much real as assumed.
  7. Bad Boundaries - narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves. Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all. Those who provide narcissistic supply to the narcissist will be treated as if they are part of the narcissist and be expected to live up to those expectations. In the mind of a narcissist, there is no boundary between self and other.

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zappaisgod said:
Every single anti-Israel bullshit stems from the same well of identifying with the losers that permeates the ever descending state we find ourselves in.  Success sucks and failure is a noble pursuit.  The Palestinians are genocidal lunatics who would eradicate all Jews if they could.  In the face of that what the fuck do you think the Israelis should do?  Move to Jonestown?

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“What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul.” -Jesus

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Prisoner#1 said:

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zappaisgod said:
All the Israelis ever wanted was a tiny little slice (slightly smaller than New Jersey) of resource-free desert shithole.  They didn't want the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula or the Golan Heights.

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and they used terrorism to get it

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Fighting between the Arab and Jewish communities of Palestine began in November 1947, immediately after the UN decision to create a Jewish state. The Arab States declared they would greet any attempt to form a Jewish state with war.[38] Dr Izzat Tannous, the Palestinian Arab representative to the UN declared that

   

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We are now at war, a war in which no quarter will be asked and none will be given. It will be a battle of life and death and woe to the vanquished.[39]

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Shins said:
Yes extremist Muslims are no good for America,  but what about extremist jews?  why is it that extremist jews are never condemned and somehow good for America?  They are just as bad if not worse!  At least Muslims accept the teachings of Jesus, i mean, jews don't believe in hell.

I hate this criminally insane racist shit.

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God's chosen? what the fuck! The narcissism is hard to take.

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"Hotchkiss[10] identified what he called the seven deadly sins of narcissism:

  1. Shamelessness - Shame is the feeling that lurks beneath all unhealthy narcissism, and the inability to process shame in healthy ways.
  2. Magical thinking - Narcissists see themselves as perfect using distortion and illusion known as magical thinking. They also use projection to shame dump onto others.
  3. Arrogance - If a narcissist is feeling deflated, he can reinflate himself by diminishing, debasing or degrading somebody else.
  4. Envy - If the narcissist's need to secure a sense of superiority meets an obstacle because of somebody else, he neutralises it using contempt to minimise the other person's ability
  5. Entitlement - Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves uniquely special. Any failure to comply will be considered an attack on their superiority and the perpetrator is considered to ben "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.
  6. Exploitation - can take many forms but always involves the using of others without regards for their feelings or interests. Often the other is in a subservient position where resistance would be difficult or even impossible. Sometimes the subservience is not so much real as assumed.
  7. Bad Boundaries - narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves. Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all. Those who provide narcissistic supply to the narcissist will be treated as if they are part of the narcissist and be expected to live up to those expectations. In the mind of a narcissist, there is no boundary between self and other.

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Shins said:

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zappaisgod said:
Every single anti-Israel bullshit stems from the same well of identifying with the losers that permeates the ever descending state we find ourselves in.  Success sucks and failure is a noble pursuit.  The Palestinians are genocidal lunatics who would eradicate all Jews if they could.  In the face of that what the fuck do you think the Israelis should do?  Move to Jonestown?

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success sucks if it was attained with unethical means.

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�What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul.� -Jesus

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Shins said:
Yes extremist Muslims are no good for America,  but what about extremist jews?  why is it that extremist jews are never condemned and somehow good for America?  They are just as bad if not worse!  At least Muslims accept the teachings of Jesus, i mean, jews don't believe in hell.

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1982?1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.
1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.
1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.
1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.
1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.
1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.
1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.
1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.
1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.
2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)
2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb explodes outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.
2003 1
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.
2004
May 29?31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11?19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.
2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.
2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.
2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.
2008
May 26, Iraq: a suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six U.S. soldiers and wounds 18 others in Tarmiya.
June 24, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills at least 20 people, including three U.S. Marines, at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.
June 12, Afghanistan: four American servicemen are killed when a roadside bomb explodes near a U.S. military vehicle in Farah Province.
July 13, Afghanistan: nine U.S.soldiers and at least 15 NATO troops die when Taliban militants boldly attack an American base in Kunar Province, which borders Pakistan. It's the most deadly against U.S. troops in three years.
Aug. 18 and 19, Afghanistan: as many as 15 suicide bombers backed by about 30 militants attack a U.S. military base, Camp Salerno, in Bamiyan. Fighting between U.S. troops and members of the Taliban rages overnight. No U.S. troops are killed.
Sept. 16, Yemen: a car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.
Nov. 26, India: in a series of attacks on several of Mumbai's landmarks and commercial hubs that are popular with Americans and other foreign tourists, including at least two five-star hotels, a hospital, a train station, and a cinema. About 300 people are wounded and nearly 190 people die, including at least 5 Americans.
2009
Feb. 9, Iraq:A suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
April 10, Iraq:A suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen

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EntheogenicPeace said:
What conflict started thousands of years ago? If it is Islam & Judaism, then that's incorrect because modern Zionism is the root of Arab/Israeli conflict as Jews, Christians, & Muslims were living there relatively peaceful only a couple of centuries ago.

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EntheogenicPeace said:
As for not agreeing with me... I don't care. You still haven't addressed, & probably won't, the fundamental issue of why America is seen unfavorably by many in the Muslim world, but Brazil (to use one of many examples) isn't. Usually the American nationalist responds by saying 'because we stand for freedom & they hate freedom!" However, the history of U.S. foreign policy is not one of promoting the freedom & independence of the majority in Muslim countries, but rather supporting dictatorships (as well as overthrowing democracies in a few cases) that are in America's economic interests while hypocritically condemning other dictatorships not subservient to U.S. interests... & this is how most people of Arab & Muslim decent see it (& I would be willing to bet that I've interacted & talked with more of them on the subject than you have.)

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EntheogenicPeace said:
A perfect example of this is the U.S. condemning the sham elections in Iran because it doesn't like their government while not condemning the sham elections in Afghanistan that kept Hamid Karzai's corrupt government of warlords in power. Most Muslims in the world can see right through this hypocrisy. Lastly, don't paint all Muslim people as fundamentalists (like the Taliban who really do hate freedom) as if a) they are the majority & b) only fundamentalists have negative views of America. Moderate Muslims (a majority) don't oppose America for its domestic freedoms but rather oppose it for having long been on the side of suppressing their attempts to achieve their own freedom & greater economic equality in their societies by supporting authoritarian governments that hoard extreme wealth while large segments live in poverty without economic security & educational opportunities.

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EntheogenicPeace said:
Lastly, Western (primarily American) support for dictatorships favored for economic reasons is a catalyst for poor, disenfranchised youth to join fundamentalists movements as they are the only ones fighting to overthrow the corrupt governments (as the U.S. has worked with these same authoritarian governments to shut down, apprehend, torture, & execute left-wing opposition in several places in the Muslim world, leaving only the fundamentalists). The more support for these governments by the west, the greater the appeal of these reactionary movements by elements of the poor, thus serving as a convenient propaganda cover by the U.S. to do more (in terms of military support) of why it & the government it supports are opposed in the first place.

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EntheogenicPeace said:
I maybe wasted my time on all of the above. If you are not willing to talk to & listen to the views of the majority of people of Arab descent/Muslim faith, then you may never come around to this if you are not willing. I've come across a number of right-wing people who are very uninformed on the subject of how U.S. policy is seen by people around the world & have no interest in hearing from these people themselves on the subject & becoming better informed to understand that the U.S. stands only for its own economic interests, & not the noble ideals it claims & preaches to the world (but has no problem violating for its own interests), & this is the reason for most opposition to its influence, not "hating freedom" when the U.S. has (& still is) in many places around the world isn't on the side of the will of the majority.

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Chespirito said:
For once I generally agree with what you have to say.  However I think you are ignoring one major facet of this conflict, which is that while Israel technically occupies a sliver of land, that sliver of land happens to occupy several important holy sites in all the major Abrahamic religions.

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zappaisgod said:

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Prisoner#1 said:

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zappaisgod said:
All the Israelis ever wanted was a tiny little slice (slightly smaller than New Jersey) of resource-free desert shithole.  They didn't want the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula or the Golan Heights.

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and they used terrorism to get it

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They did?  I thought it was part of the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
Of particular interest is this:

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Arab attacks on isolated Jewish settlements and British failure to protect the Jews, led to the creation of Haganah (Defense) a mainly socialist Jewish militia dedicated to defending Jewish settlements. Following the 1929 Arab riots, the Revisionist Zionist leader, Jabotinsky, created a right-wing militia called the Irgun Tzvai Leumi (National Military Organization, known in locally by its acronym "Etzel"), this smaller group temporarily merged with Haganah in the thirties.

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zappaisgod said:
I've said it before and I will repeat it for those who were out of the room.  All the Israelis ever wanted was a tiny little slice (slightly smaller than New Jersey) of resource-free desert shithole.  They didn't want the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula or the Golan Heights.  BUt their neighbors aggressive activities forced them to defend themselves, which they did at great cost but with great success.  Now they have given back a great deal of it but have also found in some cases that the nations they captured the territories from won't take the lunatics and assholes that stayed there back.  You couldn't pay Egypt enough ransom to take back the Gaza Strip.

Every single anti-Israel bullshit stems from the same well of identifying with the losers that permeates the ever descending state we find ourselves in.  Success sucks and failure is a noble pursuit.  The Palestinians are genocidal lunatics who would eradicate all Jews if they could.  In the face of that what the fuck do you think the Israelis should do?  Move to Jonestown?

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Prisoner#1 said:

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zappaisgod said:
All the Israelis ever wanted was a tiny little slice (slightly smaller than New Jersey) of resource-free desert shithole.  They didn't want the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula or the Golan Heights.

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and they used terrorism to get it

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Satival said:
Just an observation...

In their latest attack on Gaza city 13 Jews were killed, most of them soldiers vs over 13,000 Palestinians, with a larger portion of civilian casualties. The Israeli military insists that they were justified and that no war crimes took place.

So i suppose that 1 Jew is worth 1000 Palestinians then?

Don't get me wrong, I believe that Islam DOES represent a real threat towards progressive and not-insane society, but the same goes for fundamentalist Christians too. Christians and Muslims share very similar belief systems, they don't even realize it, they view each other as a different group and, somewhat naturally, view the other as the inferior.

If Palestinians were white christians this shit would NEVER happen. Western media would condemn this shit outright. American people only tolerate this now because they are either stupid or actually don't care.
I suspect the latter.

Personally I think Israel switches to overkill-occupy-mode way too easily. The US enables them.

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Shins said:
success sucks if it was attained with unethical means.

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?What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul.? -Jesus

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Shins said:
i guess all the people who get raped, murdered, and robbed are just "losers" right?

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Shins said:
it's about right and wrong,  not win or loss.

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Shins said:
if palestinians want to eradicate jews its because they feel they have been wronged by them.

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Shins said:
I think most of them would settle with, and want the eradication of Isreal as a nation state, not so much the people therein.

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Shins said:
i always hear people take "they want to wipe israel out!" out of context as if it refers to wiping out all jews in Israel, and not the state of israel;  lines on a map with a Zionist government.

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Shins said:
Yes extremist Muslims are no good for America,  but what about extremist jews?  why is it that extremist jews are never condemned and somehow good for America?  They are just as bad if not worse!  At least Muslims accept the teachings of Jesus, i mean, jews don't believe in hell.

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