Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!
|
 Shins
Fun guy
 
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 9 hours
|
|
I thought this was relevent.
Main events in the history of Jerusalem - Timeline
There have been some exapmles of muslim rule over jerusalem where everyone had access to jerusalem.
Is this going to be an endless battle? is someone going to start dropping nukes again before it ends?
--------------------
Truth - Love - Courage
|
Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 15 hours
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
So much blind ignorance, albeit I have to concede one important thing.
If I'm blind and ignorant then prove it. Just because you say it so doesn't make it so.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
As well as the U.S. through tens (probably 100+) of billions in military & economic subsidies over the past decades, with the current ('Communist' as uninformed people like zappaisgod would claim) administration continuing the status quo. BHO (superficially) says "Stop expanding the illegal settlements," & they continue to do so, saying "F*ck you but keep giving us money since we own your Senate."
Well from looking through your post, and your signature you sound like a Communist which is perfectly legal where I come from and your right. I'm not saying you are for sure, but if your surprised that you may be mistaken for one I don't think you understatnd the impression you leave on people. Either that or your probably a hardcore left winger which isn't much different from a communist in my opinion. Also you can keep echoing the sentiment that they own our government, but it's no true. They have an influential role in our government along with other large influential groups in our nation.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Actually, that claims comes mostly from the religious right, the base of the Republican party, in the U.S., whether now or during the U.S. military occupation of SE Asia, or the history of supporting dictatorships in Latin America for well over a century.
I can't speak for ALL right wingers, and definitly not the christian right because I'm not one of them. But, I can speak for Libritarian Right Wingers when I tell you we do not believe in building democracies for our enemies, and to us that sounds like soft liberal nonsense. We wanted vengance.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
As far as treatment if power was the other way around, probably not now since Zionist apartheid, but Jews did better in Muslim parts of the world than in "Christian" Europe up until only several decades ago... particularly in Palestine, & this statement was from a group of Orthodox Jews who oppose Israel bc apparently the Torah says that Jews aren't supposed to have a 'state' until the Messiah comes.
This part really cracks me up, you admit that the Palistinians would not treat the Jews better if the tables were turned, the you go on to make it sound like that would be justified because of the way that they have been treated. That would be like me justifing the continued expansion of settlements in the west bank because of Jewish casualties. I'm not trying to do that, but it would be the same thing your doing in your statement. Also I don't care what those Orthodox Jews, or the Tora says because a don't ascribe to any of mans made up fairy tale religions.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
I do have to agree on the exploitation by foreign powers (in collusion with a domestic elite) is due in a great degree to lack of organization of the masses due to a # of petty reasons... religious fundamentalism (fanned by imperialism, btw) too pervasive to accomplish any significant reforms needed to combat widespread poverty & inequality, continuing backwards ethnic feuds that have been going on for centuries or more, a lack of desire by one poor & exploited groups to work with other, often diverse groups of people all in the same boat to accomplish the greater good for the people, etc..
You can make a million excuses for these people why they cannot bring about change in there culture, and you can blame the United States for everyones problems in the world if you want, but it doesn't fix anything. It achieves nothing. And the bottom line is for whatever reason these people cannot get there act together.
You must understand that I do not believe that the United States is not guilty of some atrosities. The same thing with Israel. On the contrary, I know for a fact that they are. I just don't care. I'm not trying to justify our actions.
Why don't I care? I've arranged a list below that proves this is not a one sided fight. The Muslims are not being killed unprevocked.
Quote:
1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.
1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.
1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.
1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.
1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.
1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.
1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.
1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.
1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.
2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)
2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb explodes outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.
2003 1
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.
2004
May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.
2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.
2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.
2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.
2008
May 26, Iraq: a suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six U.S. soldiers and wounds 18 others in Tarmiya.
June 24, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills at least 20 people, including three U.S. Marines, at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.
June 12, Afghanistan: four American servicemen are killed when a roadside bomb explodes near a U.S. military vehicle in Farah Province.
July 13, Afghanistan: nine U.S.soldiers and at least 15 NATO troops die when Taliban militants boldly attack an American base in Kunar Province, which borders Pakistan. It's the most deadly against U.S. troops in three years.
Aug. 18 and 19, Afghanistan: as many as 15 suicide bombers backed by about 30 militants attack a U.S. military base, Camp Salerno, in Bamiyan. Fighting between U.S. troops and members of the Taliban rages overnight. No U.S. troops are killed.
Sept. 16, Yemen: a car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.
Nov. 26, India: in a series of attacks on several of Mumbai's landmarks and commercial hubs that are popular with Americans and other foreign tourists, including at least two five-star hotels, a hospital, a train station, and a cinema. About 300 people are wounded and nearly 190 people die, including at least 5 Americans.
2009
Feb. 9, Iraq:A suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
April 10, Iraq:A suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen
These along with many other lower profile unnamed attacks prove that we are not simply killing people who are living a peaceful existence, and minding there own business. We are kiling our ENEMY.
And no matter what you believe it doesn't change the fact that I'm with the majority of Americans who see Israel as our ally against a common foe, and that support will continue.
Hell even a crazy left winger like Obama is required to follow this alliance by the American people
--------------------
  
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
Edited by Simplicitry (10/18/09 11:18 AM)
|
Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 15 hours
|
 Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11270941 - 10/18/09 10:55 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Shins said:
I thought this was relevant.
Main events in the history of Jerusalem - Timeline
Finally something we agree on. This is relevant.
Quote:
Shins said:
There have been some examples of Muslim rule over Jerusalem where everyone had access to jerusalem.
Oh shit here we go again. Islamic faith(The Quaran)is very clear on it's religious intolerance. It only protects people who believe in the God of Abraham(dhimmi, or people of the book). The only other religions that derive from Abraham are Christianity, and Judaism. Therefore if your anything else then your religious rights are not respected. And even the Jews, and Christians have to pay an extra tax for there protection, and are not afforded the same representation in government. That is hardly what I would consider religious tolerance. You can try to make the other side softer, and kinder then what they are to support what you think is right, but that is simply you skewing the truth to fit your agenda. Also look at the timeline again, and there were times when the Muslims burned down churches, and synagogues, and didn't allow Jews into Jeruselum. How does that play into your arguement?
Quote:
Shins said:
Is this going to be an endless battle?
It's unfortunate, but without the destruction of one side all indicators point to yes. The Jews leaving is as probable as all white Americans moving back to Europe, so that Native Americans could once again populate this continent. Which is to say it's impossible. The Palestinians putting down there guns, and excepting Israel as a state is equally as impossible(does anyone really believe that if settlement expansion in the west bank came to a stop the Palestinians would just except Israels current borders?)The Palestinians rising up and defeating the Israelis is laughable. It's just not going to happen. I suppose you know the solution though right?
Quote:
Shins said:
is someone going to start dropping nukes again before it ends?
The Muslims better hope not. We have a head start on them there.
I'm sorry, but your timeline didn't have that profound of an effect on me. As a matter a fact I think it shores up my argument. It shows that land has traded hands so many time that who has the right to lay claim to it other then those who are strong enough to hold it.
Edited by Simplicitry (10/18/09 12:22 PM)
|
 EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,451
|
|
You're a libertarian? Really? Then what's this talk about "our enemies?" If you really are a libertarian, then you would know that practicing a libertarian foreign policy would result in as many (Muslim, in this case) people wanting to attack within America against American targets as want to attack within Brazil against Brazilian targets, to cite one of many potential examples of nations who don't excessively meddle abroad. This is pretty simple to understand. Perhaps the statist/imperialist in you doesn't want to understand this, though.
P.S. "Communism" (really anarchism/communalism if we want to try to get the "-isms" right) goes back in my people's culture long before Marx & Engels wrote about it.
--------------------
Every part of this country is sacred to my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove has been hallowed by some fond memory or some sad experience of my tribe.
Even the rocks... as they swelter in the sun along the silent seashore in solemn grandeur thrill with memories of past events... and the very dust under your feet responds more lovingly to our footsteps than to yours, because it is the ashes of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch, for the soil is rich with the life of our kindred.
And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among white men shall have become a myth, these shores shall swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe.
- Chief Seattle
|
Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 15 hours
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
You're a libertarian? Really? Then what's this talk about "our enemies?" If you really are a libertarian, then you would know that practicing a libertarian foreign policy would result in as many (Muslim, in this case) people wanting to attack within America against American targets as want to attack within Brazil against Brazilian targets, to cite one of many potential examples of nations who don't excessively meddle abroad. This is pretty simple to understand. Perhaps the statist/imperialist in you doesn't want to understand this, though.
P.S. "Communism" (really anarchism/communalism if we want to try to get the "-isms" right) goes back in my people's culture long before Marx & Engels wrote about it.
What do you mean, where do I come up with "our enemies"?
Did you not see that list of all the attacks on American interests I posted?
I personally feel an American would have to be retarded to look at that list of attacks and not realize that they are our enemies. Do you really mean to tell me that with a war on two fronts that you don't think that America, and Islam are enemies?
I think that the people that we are fighting feel the same way.
I would have thought that was clear to everyone.
Yes I am a Libertarian, and I don't think that the United States should meddle in foreign affairs that do not INVOLVE OUR INTERESTS. Like Darfur, let the sons of bitches kill each other. I don't want a dime of my taxes going over there. Or nation building in Iraq, I would have leveled there cities to the ground, and then let them pick up the pieces. I would not have spent a dime of American money to free them from their horrid dictator, get their elections going, or anything else for that matter. The same goes for Afghanistan, I would have left the Islamic foe in ruin, and then went about my business until the next time they needed to be reminded not to fuck with us.
Please understand that the Libertarian prospective of not meddling in things that are not our business has nothing to do with st ricking back at people who carry out hostilities against us. Only a great coward would let someone kill his brethren, and then do nothing about it.
You called me an Imperialist. I don't feel that I am. I don't feel the United States should acquire anymore land. I am a very vocal Capitalist though. You don't have to look very deep into the history of Communist regimes to see the fundamental flaws of their ideologies.
--------------------
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,451
|
|
It's not surprising that you won't address the central topic. Had the US minded it's own business (you know, libertarianism) post-WWII (let's just start there for simplicity's sake), especially in predominantly Muslim parts of the world, 9-11 would not have happened nor would Muslims want to attack America anymore than Brazil. Any Muslim "terrorists" wanting to attack America is a result of meddling U.S. foreign policy. Unless you can acknowledge this simple fact, nothing else is worth mentioning or discussing. The solution is not more of what caused the problem; it's less.
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,451
|
|
Quote:
Or nation building in Iraq, I would have leveled there cities to the ground, and then let them pick up the pieces. I would not have spent a dime of American money to free them from their horrid dictator, get their elections going, or anything else for that matter.
Well, at least you don't even pretend to be compassionate in wanting to wage military aggression against a people who never attacked the American mainland. Freeing them from a dictator? Spare the self-righteousness... most people around here aren't dumb enough to buy that nationalist propaganda. The U.S. & British, in both Iran & Iraq, worked to overthrow popular governments that threatened Western oil interests in the 50s/early 60s.
|
Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 15 hours
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
It's not surprising that you won't address the central topic. Had the US minded it's own business (you know, libertarianism) post-WWII (let's just start there for simplicity's sake)
That would be a convienient place for you to start. Even though the conflict started thousands of years ago. That doesn't play into your arguement so you wouldn't want to go there
--------------------
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
|
Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 15 hours
|
|
I simply don't agree with you EtheogenicPeace. I have no fear of debating as long as you want. I have strong convictions. I do not feel that I completely understand your stance aside from that fact that you come across as anti-American, and anti-Israel. You also believe that the U.S. is involved in things that aren't there business. I would argue that we didn't have two wars going on until after 9/11, so in my mind our action are justified as retaliation, and that makes it our business.
I'm more then willing to hear an alternative opinion. I'm not saying that I will agree with it, but I'm willing to hear you out.
What country are you from?
What is your political stance in your country?
Do you honestly have an unbiased opinion, or do you have interests that dictate your opinion?
Do you have any kind of a feasible solution? or are you just one of those people that only has criticisms, but no useful solutions?
I don't think I can make how I feel anymore clear then I already have, but I'm more then willing to answer any questions about my Ideologies.
What are yours?
--------------------
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 11 hours, 58 minutes
|
|
He is anti-non-loser as a knee jerk proposition. You may note that despite is anti-semitic diatribe he doesn't seem to be able to explain just how 14 million people can take over the world. Mwahahahahaha. BILDERBERGER!!!!!!!!!!FTW!
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,451
|
|
Quote:
Even though the conflict started thousands of years ago.
What conflict started thousands of years ago? If it is Islam & Judaism, then that's incorrect because modern Zionism is the root of Arab/Israeli conflict as Jews, Christians, & Muslims were living there relatively peaceful only a couple of centuries ago.
As for not agreeing with me... I don't care. You still haven't addressed, & probably won't, the fundamental issue of why America is seen unfavorably by many in the Muslim world, but Brazil (to use one of many examples) isn't. Usually the American nationalist responds by saying 'because we stand for freedom & they hate freedom!" However, the history of U.S. foreign policy is not one of promoting the freedom & independence of the majority in Muslim countries, but rather supporting dictatorships (as well as overthrowing democracies in a few cases) that are in America's economic interests while hypocritically condemning other dictatorships not subservient to U.S. interests... & this is how most people of Arab & Muslim decent see it (& I would be willing to bet that I've interacted & talked with more of them on the subject than you have.)
A perfect example of this is the U.S. condemning the sham elections in Iran because it doesn't like their government while not condemning the sham elections in Afghanistan that kept Hamid Karzai's corrupt government of warlords in power. Most Muslims in the world can see right through this hypocrisy. Lastly, don't paint all Muslim people as fundamentalists (like the Taliban who really do hate freedom) as if a) they are the majority & b) only fundamentalists have negative views of America. Moderate Muslims (a majority) don't oppose America for its domestic freedoms but rather oppose it for having long been on the side of suppressing their attempts to achieve their own freedom & greater economic equality in their societies by supporting authoritarian governments that hoard extreme wealth while large segments live in poverty without economic security & educational opportunities.
Lastly, Western (primarily American) support for dictatorships favored for economic reasons is a catalyst for poor, disenfranchised youth to join fundamentalists movements as they are the only ones fighting to overthrow the corrupt governments (as the U.S. has worked with these same authoritarian governments to shut down, apprehend, torture, & execute left-wing opposition in several places in the Muslim world, leaving only the fundamentalists). The more support for these governments by the west, the greater the appeal of these reactionary movements by elements of the poor, thus serving as a convenient propaganda cover by the U.S. to do more (in terms of military support) of why it & the government it supports are opposed in the first place.
I maybe wasted my time on all of the above. If you are not willing to talk to & listen to the views of the majority of people of Arab descent/Muslim faith, then you may never come around to this if you are not willing. I've come across a number of right-wing people who are very uninformed on the subject of how U.S. policy is seen by people around the world & have no interest in hearing from these people themselves on the subject & becoming better informed to understand that the U.S. stands only for its own economic interests, & not the noble ideals it claims & preaches to the world (but has no problem violating for its own interests), & this is the reason for most opposition to its influence, not "hating freedom" when the U.S. has (& still is) in many places around the world isn't on the side of the will of the majority.
--------------------
Every part of this country is sacred to my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove has been hallowed by some fond memory or some sad experience of my tribe.
Even the rocks... as they swelter in the sun along the silent seashore in solemn grandeur thrill with memories of past events... and the very dust under your feet responds more lovingly to our footsteps than to yours, because it is the ashes of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch, for the soil is rich with the life of our kindred.
And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among white men shall have become a myth, these shores shall swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe.
- Chief Seattle
|
Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 9 hours
|
|
First of all i appreciate all of the responses and viewpoints, thanks.
a few points;
I thought part of the idea of America was to get and stay away from this type of stuff. George Washington frequently talked about how it was in America's best interest to not meddle in the affairs of other countries.
The USA has been messing around in the middle east for over a hundred years, and the Brits for a lot longer. It's hard to deny that "the terrorists" are doing what they are at least in part because of this.
I propose that the USA made a series of mistakes over the past 100+ years in the middle east, and this is the consequence.
I would also propose that Jewish influence in America has at least in part been responsible for intentional pro-Jewish swaying of public opinion, molding "education" of world history, Broken economics, backing governmental forces of middle east events, and media bias. I propose that the Jews are at least partly to blame for the "mistakes."
The argument "Israel is the strongest so they deserve it" doesn't sit well with me. this implies that even if the "strongest" is willing to do low-down, dirty, subversive, illegal, backstabbing, murderous, fraudulent things etc. to achieve the goal, that this justifies the ends and makes them "strongest."
That makes "the strongest" criminals. it's like how some murderers or rapists have a power complex where they will stop at noting to dominate thier victims to get a great sense of strength and power.
It's honestly just a really sad state of affairs. You cannot move forwards until you acknowledge the mistakes of the past. it feels like humanity is being dragged backwards to hell.
Where the F did America go?
--------------------
Truth - Love - Courage
Edited by Shins (10/19/09 01:00 AM)
|
Chespirito
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,223
|
Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11275528 - 10/19/09 01:33 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Shins said:
Where the F did America go?
Probably back in your imagination
|
Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 9 hours
|
Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11275923 - 10/19/09 06:38 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Ive got the solution! Jews could accept Jesus and Muhammad, Christians could accept Mohammad and actually follow the teachings of jesus, muslums could tone down Sharia and atheists could stop taking it all so literally and read between the lines.
seriously that would solve so many problems and sub-problems.
for the record i consider myself an Agnostic Abrahmic sympathizer who believes in the higher power of the universe and nature.
--------------------
Truth - Love - Courage
Edited by Shins (10/19/09 07:01 AM)
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,193
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 5 hours, 42 minutes
|
Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11275965 - 10/19/09 06:52 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
> i consider myself an Agnostic ... who believes in [a] higher power
Not really agnostic, then, are you?
> Ive got the solution!
So do I. Bulldoze and salt the entire area so that it is worthless thus the people fighting over it will have nothing worth fighting over.
--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.
|
Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 9 hours
|
Re: US support of Israel [Re: Seuss]
#11276005 - 10/19/09 07:10 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seuss said:
Not really agnostic, then, are you?
Agnosticism doesn't rule out theism.
Quote:
Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, spiritual beings, or even ultimate reality — are unknown or, in some forms of agnosticism, unknowable.[1]It is not a religious declaration in itself, and an agnostic may also be a theist or an atheist.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
Quote:
Agnostic theism, also known as Spiritual Agnosticism is the philosophical view that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. Per theism, an agnostic theist believes that the proposition at least one deity exists is true, but, per agnosticism, believes that the existence of gods are unknown or inherently unknowable. The agnostic theist may also or alternatively be agnostic regarding the properties of the god(s) they believe in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism
--------------------
Truth - Love - Courage
Edited by Shins (10/19/09 07:56 AM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 11 hours, 58 minutes
|
Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11276558 - 10/19/09 10:03 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Shins said:
First of all i appreciate all of the responses and viewpoints, thanks.
a few points;
I thought part of the idea of America was to get and stay away from this type of stuff. George Washington frequently talked about how it was in America's best interest to not meddle in the affairs of other countries.
Barbary pirates. Also airplanes. What is meddling?Quote:
The USA has been messing around in the middle east for over a hundred years, and the Brits for a lot longer. It's hard to deny that "the terrorists" are doing what they are at least in part because of this.
Not really and not much at all until the Soviets decided to get involvedQuote:
.
I propose that the USA made a series of mistakes over the past 100+ years in the middle east, and this is the consequence.
Yes, they didn't destroy Iran in 1979. That's a big one right there.Quote:
I would also propose that Jewish influence in America has at least in part been responsible for intentional pro-Jewish swaying of public opinion, molding "education" of world history, Broken economics, backing governmental forces of middle east events, and media bias. I propose that the Jews are at least partly to blame for the "mistakes."
Jews make up 2.5% of the population. They aren't that influential. It is an anti-semitic canard.Quote:
The argument "Israel is the strongest so they deserve it" doesn't sit well with me. this implies that even if the "strongest" is willing to do low-down, dirty, subversive, illegal, backstabbing, murderous, fraudulent things etc. to achieve the goal, that this justifies the ends and makes them "strongest."
Their goal is and always has been to hold onto their tiny slice of barren shithole desert. Their neighbors have embarked on a several decade long program to eliminate and exterminate them. Some of their neighbor's governments have stopped. Some have not. Many people in all of their neighbors also individually oppose the Jew's right to live free in his tiny slice of crap and have contributed to efforts to achieve that end.Quote:
That makes "the strongest" criminals. it's like how some murderers or rapists have a power complex where they will stop at noting to dominate thier victims to get a great sense of strength and power.
Prevailing in a war does not make you a criminal. I suspect they have no desire whatsoever to govern the Palestinian lunatics. Just as their neighbors have no desire to govern the Palestinian lunatics. If they weren't lunatics the 1968 borders would never have changed. Jerusalem would be split, the West Bank would be part of Jordan, Golan Heights Syria and Gaza Egypt. But that wasn't good enough for the lunatics. Not then, not now. And there are hundreds of millions of them.Quote:
It's honestly just a really sad state of affairs. You cannot move forwards until you acknowledge the mistakes of the past. it feels like humanity is being dragged backwards to hell.
Where the F did America go?
You are very young. The middle east has been a festering shithole for millennia. Just when do you suppose the apex of middle eastern civilization was?
--------------------
|
Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 9 hours
|
Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11278748 - 10/19/09 04:14 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Not really and not much at all until the Soviets decided to get involved
WW1 was a big early example. If the united states didn't directly "meddle" it did so by proxy by freeing up British and Russian troops to do the job.
i should have said "for about 100 years"
Quote:
Jews make up 2.5% of the population. They aren't that influential. It is an anti-semitic canard.
Jews make up a small percentage of overall population yes, but when it comes to key positions in the areas i described, they hold a disproportionately high percentage.
I'd like to clarify something. I'm not anti-semite, I'm pro-american, and if zionist interests conflict with america's principals, then that's simply a coincidence.
Quote:
Their goal is and always has been to hold onto their tiny slice of barren shithole desert.
Why do you keep downplaying the significance of the "holy" land and the "cradle of civilization?" if it's such a shithole why did the jews want is so bad?
Quote:
You are very young. The middle east has been a festering shithole for millennia. Just when do you suppose the apex of middle eastern civilization was?
Hmm... the Apex is hard to say. I would say perhaps the Hyksos period or the byzantine / early Muslim / crusader periods.
Or today, since its the apex of time in general.
--------------------
Truth - Love - Courage
|
Satival
Stranger
Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 241
Last seen: 2 months, 27 days
|
|
Just an observation...
In their latest attack on Gaza city 13 Jews were killed, most of them soldiers vs over 13,000 Palestinians, with a larger portion of civilian casualties. The Israeli military insists that they were justified and that no war crimes took place.
So i suppose that 1 Jew is worth 1000 Palestinians then?
Don't get me wrong, I believe that Islam DOES represent a real threat towards progressive and not-insane society, but the same goes for fundamentalist Christians too. Christians and Muslims share very similar belief systems, they don't even realize it, they view each other as a different group and, somewhat naturally, view the other as the inferior.
If Palestinians were white christians this shit would NEVER happen. Western media would condemn this shit outright. American people only tolerate this now because they are either stupid or actually don't care.
I suspect the latter.
Personally I think Israel switches to overkill-occupy-mode way too easily. The US enables them.
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,804
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: US support of Israel [Re: Satival]
#11294771 - 10/21/09 06:44 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
If Palestinians were white christians this shit would NEVER happen.
Yes it would. It happened just like that in the Balkans only a decade ago. There we took the side of the Muslims and bombed the white Christians (as you call them). You are projecting racism where there is none.
Edited by DieCommie (10/21/09 06:54 PM)
| |
|
|
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Phred, Prisoner#1
2,907 topic views. 2 members, 7 guests and 0 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic ]
| | |
|
|
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit 
Reply 
Anonymous