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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11256252 - 10/15/09 08:04 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Inflation is not a market correction.  The market correction is prices increasing in relation to the previous inflation of the money supply.



What!?!?!  I believe you just said inflation is not a market correction.  The market correction is inflation.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
The bust phase of the cycle is the market correction.

Inflating the money supply after the bust occurs is what sets up the next cycle.  It is also where the malinvestment & misallocation of resources occurs.



As zappa previously said, the market doesn't appear to be very "cyclical":


Quote:

Mr.Al said:
How do you figure that "income levels compensate"?



Um, people make a lot more today than they used to 50 years ago.  After inflation, it's about the same.  See the chart I posted earlier.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
The key point that you are not examining is that the increase of the money supply does not occur evenly throughout the economy.  Most people find that their earnings will not keep pace with the inflation.  Those who received the money first (think "bailouts") benefit.  Everyone else foots the bill after prices adjust to the new money.



Tell me something - how much inflation has there been since the bailouts???  Are the first people to get the money the only ones to benefit from it?

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Inflation is caused by the central bank through the fractional reserve banking system and central economic planners.  It is not a "market response".



The Fed doesn't tell any business to raise their prices.  It's a market response to more money.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Given that inflation is cyclical, how can you not surmise that the money supply will not become overinflated?



Wut???

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
In my story of the inflation fairy, I am attempting to show very dense people that most people do not see enough of an increase in the money that they earn to compensate for the inflation of the entire money supply.



Post a chart or other evidence to back this up.  I showed evidence that inflation adjusted income has remained relatively flat.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
MOST PEOPLE ARE LEFT HOLDING A SMALLER PERCENTAGE OF THE MONEY SUPPLY AFTER THE MONEY SUPPLY IS INCREASED, THUS THEY HAVE LESS PURCHASING POWER THAN BEFORE!

That is exactly why Rothbard said, "The creation of new money confers no social benefit."



You just described inflation, genius.  It's not a new concept to most people.


--------------------
I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
                                                                 


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zorbman]
    #11256270 - 10/15/09 08:07 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Yes, the dollar loses value.  But income levels compensate.




Evidently only for the top 1% if I'm reading your chart correctly. For the large majority of earners wages have remained flat for decades even as inflation was rising. This seems to support what Mr. Al is saying about workers being squeezed.



No.  Mr.Al said wages are decreasing:
Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Most people find that their earnings will not keep pace with the inflation.



I'd like to see his evidence of this.

The chart I posted that shows wages have remained flat is already adjusted for inflation:


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (10/15/09 11:36 PM)


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OfflineYrat
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #11258046 - 10/16/09 04:31 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Inflation is not a market correction.  The market correction is prices increasing in relation to the previous inflation of the money supply.



What!?!?!  I believe you just said inflation is not a market correction.  The market correction is inflation.







the correct definition of inflation is the expansion of the money supply.  you "inflate" the amount of currency in circulation.  as a result, prices rise.  this is the most common misunderstanding of the word.  the rising prices are a market correction to match the amount of new money in circulation.


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root


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OfflineYrat
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11258476 - 10/16/09 07:12 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Thank you!


Mr.Al does not advocate fiat money.

The Falcon apparently has not looked into the concept of competitive free market money.

Without legal tender laws, different competing mediums of exchange would whup the shit out of government issued fiat.





This has got to be a joke.  Maybe we can set up some wildcat banks.




gold was chosen as money by the free market over the course of thousands of years.  this might not be the case today, if again the markets were allowed to decide on a medium of exchange.  one thing is for sure though, money has to represent value in order to fulfill its purpose.  a free market will naturally settle on a medium of exchange that best accomplishes this.  considering this, fiat is a cruel joke.


Quote:


The Gold Standard: A Standard For Freedom
By Paul Nathan 
Oct 2 2009

Forward: If there are only a few articles you ever read on the gold standard, this should be one of them. The reason is that it is complete. It covers the moral case for the gold standard as well as its practicality. Although beginning with the basics it incorporates some of the more intricate aspects of it's virtues.

There is no call in this article to re-establish the gold standard today. Whether the gold standard is ever re-established is not the point. The point, is that like freedom, it is the ideal. And like freedom, while achieving it may be a distant goal, moving toward it is always the direction we should be moving.

***********

At one time the case for the gold standard was practically self-evi­dent — undisputed by most econo­mists and appreciated by both lay­men and professionals. Today, however, the case for gold is bur­ied under decades of propaganda, misconceptions, and myths. It has been only recently that the case for the gold standard has begun to surface from under the Policy Makers’ anti-gold debris. Conse­quently, gold is once again gain­ing the attention and interest it so rightly deserves.

Today’s free-market advocates of the gold standard differ from past advocates. For example, free-market advocates do not exclude silver or other commodities from their concept of a gold standard. Indeed, they do not even insist that gold must be money. The case for the gold standard is actually the case for market-originated commodity money, and the case against government-regulated fiat money. It is simply an extension of the case for free markets which respect the rights of man, and the case against controlled markets which violate the rights of man.

To be concerned with the gold standard is to be concerned with a free economy, regulated by the values and choices of men, rather than a controlled economy in which the values and choices of men are regulated by government. This concern for man’s freedom to express values and exercise choices is derived from the deeper concern for justice and for man’s right to property. The man con­cerned with justice does not aim to force others to use gold as money. Rather, he insists that gov­ernment has no right to prevent him and other men from using gold as money if they choose. The man concerned with property rights does not urge government to legislate pro-gold policies in order to arbitrarily increase the value, popularity, or status of gold. Rather, he insists that gov­ernment stop inflating, since this arbitrarily decreases the value of his money claims to property.

Antagonists of the gold stand­ard claim that it is impractical. But the gold standard is, in fact, the most practical monetary sys­tem yet conceived by man. How­ever, the gold standard’s primary virtue does not lie in its practi­cality: it lies in its morality. Those concerned about such things as freedom, justice, the preserva­tion of property rights and pur­chasing power, would do well to consider the moral case for the gold standard, for, once under­stood, it is the individual’s best defense against government con­fiscation of property through in­flation.

The fact that prevents govern­ment from indulging in inflation­ary schemes under the gold stand­ard can be best summed up in a phrase: governments can’t print gold. But to understand the impli­cations of this statement, and the virtues of having gold as money, it is first necessary to understand what money is — and what money is not.

What Money Is . . .


A man on a desert island has no need for money. He produces the goods he needs to survive, and consumes all he produces. Simi­larly, a primitive society has no need for money. The kinds of goods produced are extremely lim­ited, and if individuals desire to exchange their goods with one another, they can do so through direct exchange, i.e., barter. But under a division of labor economy where men specialize in produc­tion and where there is a variety of goods produced, desired, and traded, there is a very definite need for money. For how else could Mr. Jones in Florida sell his oranges to men throughout the world and then buy Mr. Smith’s best-selling novel, unless there ex­isted some medium of exchange acceptable to all parties.

Money originates from men’s desire for indirect exchange. And more, since indirect exchange usu­ally occurs between strangers like Smith and Jones, money must be an object which is mutually val­ued. Thus, money is that commod­ity which serves as a medium of exchange by virtue of its high degree of marketability.

The task of discovering which commodity will be most valued by and most acceptable to men as a medium of exchange can only be accomplished through a market process; for it is only through the market that men’s values and choices are properly reflected. The verdict of the market has re­flected three general requirements for any lasting medium of ex­change: that money should be gen­erally acceptable to most men; that it should be practical to use; and that it should be relatively stable in value. If these require­ments are satisfied, the result is a money of trust.

Trust is the lifeblood of money, and money is the lifeblood of any economy based on the indirect ex­change of goods and services. A money of trust serves to facili­tate exchange among men, and in doing so, breeds a healthy and growing economy. But if men should ever begin to mistrust money, the market will immedi­ately reflect this loss of confidence. Then money will begin to lose stability, lose its acceptability, and will soon become impractical to use in exchange.

Mistrusted money is the anti­thesis of the lifeblood of an econ­omy. It’s a kind of "bad blood" circulating between men through­out the economy, breeding con­fusion and suspicion. The fact that men’s mistrust of money will result in monetary crises and col­lapse, underscores the need for a money that never contradicts men’s values, a money that at all times properly reflects men’s val­ues, i.e., a money based on, and constantly exposed to, individual choices — which means a free­-market-originated commodity money.

When one considers the com­plex process that must take place before men can discover which commodity money constantly re­flects their changing values and choices, one can understand why it is only through a free market process that money can properly evolve as a medium of trust. And one may also understand why no man, group of men, or govern­ment, has the right to dictate what money or its value should be. This decision must be a market decision if it is to be a lasting decision.

Throughout history, almost every conceivable commodity has been used as a medium of ex­change. Through the years of eco­nomic development and through trial and error, those commodi­ties least suited to serve as money were eliminated, while those com­modities best suited survived as forms of money. After centuries of exchange between men, the commodity that emerged as the most valued, the most practical, the most trusted money among men, was gold.

What gives rise to men’s trust in gold? First, men value gold as money because men value gold as a commodity. Gold at any time can be converted to its commodity role if its monetary role should ever be questioned. Second, since gold is relatively scarce and precious to men, it has stability of value. Therefore, it can be trusted to serve as a relatively stable medium of exchange. And since most in­dividuals desire to save part of what they produce in some mon­etary form, gold’s stability of value provides them with a relia­ble monetary method of accumu­lating and storing wealth.

What else gives rise to men’s trust in gold? Gold is easily mar­ketable, which means it is accept­able to men in exchanges of all kinds. Gold is also trusted because it is practical: it’s durable, so it won’t perish or rot; it’s small in bulk, so it is easily transportable. It’s a metal, which means it can be used in different forms, such as bars or coins; and, since gold does not evaporate, it will lose neither quantity nor quality if or when men should decide to melt their coins into bullion or melt their bullion for use in production.

There is one more thing that gives rise to men’s trust in gold: the knowledge that gold cannot be counterfeited; the conviction that the money supply cannot be arti­ficially and arbitrarily increased by those who would aim to con­fiscate wealth rather than produce it; the knowledge that money (the claim to production and effort) will itself represent production and effort. In short, men’s trust in gold carries the conviction that the monetary system freely adopted by men is based, not on whim and decree, but on integrity and productivity.

These are some of the reasons why men have trusted gold as a medium of exchange through his­tory — and why today’s Policy Makers damn its existence.

... And What Money Is Not


Money is not paper. Paper notes evolve from the desire for a con­venient substitute for commodity money. The paper notes that cir­culate as money today were once money substitutes (receipts for gold), defined by and convertible into a specific amount of gold. Paper notes did not and cannot become a money of trust without first representing a commodity of trust.

Consider the reaction of free men — men who, understanding and respecting the meaning of property rights, are suddenly and for the first time offered in place of gold, non-convertible paper notes. These notes would be mean­ingless to such men. No man who had just come from harvesting a field of wheat would even consider trading his wheat for scrap paper.

There are only two ways in which men will accept paper notes without commodity convertibility : if they are forced to do so, or if they are conned into doing so. Americans are now legally forced to accept government’s non-con­vertible paper notes — but only because they have been conned into believing that commodity money is "old-fashioned" and "im­practical" and that paper notes are indicative of a "modern and sophisticated economy."

Nothing could be further from the truth. Non-convertible paper "money" is fiat money that derives its value, not from its value as a commodity, not from its value as a useful medium of exchange ac­cording to the requirements of a medium of exchange, but from the decree of government. Fiat money is a throwback to the days of kings and the mentality of dic­tators. It is not a money evolved from the values and choices of free men in free markets, but a money created through the coer­cion of government.

Is commodity money old-fash­ioned and impractical, as today’s Policy Makers contend it is? Con­sider the following facts: Over the last several decades, the ex­change ratios (the prices) of vari­ous commodities have not varied much in value relative to each other. For example, the value of eggs to milk or milk to bread would be at approximately the same ratios today as they were years ago.

Why Prices Rise

But if it is true that the ex­change ratios of commodities are relatively the same today as they were in the past, why then have prices (the exchange ratios of dollars to goods) soared over the years? The reason is that the val­ue of the paper money, with which government forces everyone to deal, has fallen yearly relative to all commodities. Clearly, if a com­modity (theoretically, almost any commodity) had been used as a medium of exchange over the past decades instead of government’s fiat money, prices would have re­mained relatively stable. It is im­portant to realize that it is not commodities that are rising in value, but fiat money that is fall­ing in value.

Since 1933, when the U.S. sev­ered the dollar-commodity rela­tionship by abandoning what was left of the gold standard, the value of the dollar has depreciated by over ninety per cent in relation to other commodities. This could nev­er occur under a commodity stand­ard — only under a government imposed fiat standard. Had the U.S. returned to a dollar based on and convertible into gold instead of severing the dollar-gold rela­tionship, the supply of dollars over the years would have been limited to, or checked by, the sup­ply of gold. Therefore, the value of the dollar today would have been equal to the value of gold in relation to other commodities. Instead, the U.S. decided to print dollars whenever "needed" and to pretend that the dollar was "as good as gold" by legally fixing its value. The pretense couldn’t last, and today the dollar is worth a mere fraction of its val­ue in terms of gold in 1933.

Paper notes that are not repre­sentative of and convertible into a commodity are not money and have never satisfied the require­ments of money for long. They are notes of circulating debt which men are forced to accept, so that governments can continuously pur­sue their policies of inflation.

The Nature of Inflation


Inflation is the fraudulent in­crease in the supply of money sub­stitutes and credit. It is a policy which allows government to arti­ficially create and spend more money than it is able to collect in taxes or borrow from its citizens. Government is the cause of infla­tion — the effect is higher prices.

Consider each dollar as a claim to some tangible good. If the claims are increased, the value of each claim goes down because there are more dollars seeking goods. This bids prices up.

But inflation is not simply ris­ing prices. In fact, inflation may exist even when prices remain the same or decrease. How is this pos­sible? If the production of goods and services increases more than the artificial increase in paper claims, prices will drop — but not by as much as they would have, had there been no artificial in­crease in paper claims. Thus, in real terms, the value of paper claims is effectively reduced even though in relative terms the value of these claims may increase.

Historically, and in relatively free market economies, there are only two ways in which a general across-the-board increase in prices can occur: through a dramatic in­crease in commodity money (such as new gold discoveries) or through a fraudulent increase of money substitutes by banks and governments. The former type of general price increase rarely oc­curs and is perfectly natural. The latter is both unnatural and im­moral.

In the case of new gold produc­tion, those who have produced the new commodity money will have earned the right to exchange their product for the products of others. All other non-money producers may have to pay higher prices for goods, as the supply of gold in­creases, but the higher prices are compensated for by having more money to spend. Who receives the "new" money will depend on indi­vidual productivity — and this is as it should be, for it is the jus­tice of the market that the acqui­sition and distribution of wealth is based upon productivity rather than decree.

But, given a fiat standard where government sanctions and spon­sors an artificial increase in paper money or credit, the increase in purchasing power for some men can only be obtained at the ex­pense of other men. Given a fiat standard, income distribution is the result of chance, caprice, or government favors and loans. When government doles out its fiat money, these notes dilute the value of all other outstanding money claims. Those who receive the fiat money first, benefit from spending their money before prices rise. But as the fiat money is spent, prices are higher for all other consumers. Thus, the difference between a real increase in the money supply (i.e., commodity money) and an artificial increase (i.e., in paper claims) is the dif­ference between production and theft.

Clearly, inflation is a moral is­sue. However prices respond, it is immoral that some man, agency, or government is legally permit­ted to obtain wealth at the invol­untary expense of other men. The major challenge in the sphere of monetary relations today is how to abolish the coercive power of government to control the supply and regulate the value of money, and how to return this function to the market where it properly belongs.

The Fiat Standard at Work


Under a fiat standard, govern­ment gains control of the banking system and thus, indirectly, of the nation’s money supply. It can arti­ficially and arbitrarily create mon­ey and furnish credit. Government paper notes are not based on or convertible into gold, or any other tangible commodity; man’s pro­duction and labor are not the sole claim to other men’s production and labor : the supply and value of money are determined by govern­ment.

Under the American version of the fiat standard, the banking sys­tem and the nation’s money sup­ply are controlled and regulated for the most part by a twelve-man Board of Governors which is em­powered to make policy decisions for the majority of the nation’s banks. Thus, America’s banking system is not a free and private banking system — it is a quasi-governmental banking system, known as the Federal Reserve System.

It should be clear that the Fed­eral Reserve System’s power to create claims against individuals’ property is immoral. But neither the Federal Reserve System nor the fiat standard is ever defended on moral grounds; they are de­fended on practical grounds. Once inspected, however, these grounds turn out to be about as solid as quicksand. The primary justifica­tion given for a fiat standard is that credit can be extended far more rapidly and extensively. This, it is claimed, is the fiat standard’s major virtue. It is, in fact, a major vice.

The greatest economic threat under a fiat standard is that the Federal Reserve System will sup­ply heavy doses of money and credit to the loan market in an attempt to reduce interest rates and "stimulate" the economy. This attempt, while temporarily stimu­lating economic activity, leads to malinvestment, as businessmen falsely anticipate greater profits. A "boom" results, but since the "boom" is artificially created, the prosperity is temporary and, for the most part, illusory. Govern­ment has not furnished more goods; it has not increased the nation’s prosperity; it has simply increased the money supply —which leads men to believe they are richer. The fact is, however, they only have more paper claims to goods. This cannot enrich any­one; it can only lead to future in­flation, i.e., a reduction of the value of real claims to wealth.

The Illusion of Prosperity


Thus, increases of money and credit provide only an illusion of prosperity, for with increased money and credit come increased costs for producer goods and in­creased wage costs. Higher wages then lead to over-consumption, as consumers, too, are enticed by the illusion of prosperity. But over­consumption results in higher prices which reduce the consum­er’s standard of living. Since the "boom" was inflation-inspired, producers and consumers are not better off — they are worse off. Mal-investment and over-consump­tion are mistakes — errors in judg­ment — caused by government’s at­tempt to con its citizens into be­lieving that profit opportunities are better than they really are.

When the credit expansion that stimulated the "boom" ends, the mistakes that were made cannot be perpetuated. These mistakes must be liquidated: consumers buy less and begin paying off their un­realistic accumulation of debts. Producers liquidate inventories. Interest rates rise, and unemploy­ment increases as the economy struggles to readjust. The severity of the readjustment depends on the degree and length of govern­ment’s prior credit expansion and the policies implemented to cope with the adverse effects. Given continual injections of money and credit in the inane attempt to con­tinue the "boom" and prevent a necessary recession, hyperinfla­tion will result. Hyperinflation must lead to monetary chaos as well as economic disaster, i.e., to depression. A major depression is not a necessary result of the fiat standard, but inflation and the "boom-bust cycle" are.

The whole purpose of fiat mon­ey is to allow government to spend more money than it can raise in direct taxes from its citizens. As a result, the American fiat stand­ard has worked more often as a means of redistributing wealth than a means of stimulating the economy. Government, instead of furnishing money to the loan mar­ket in the attempt to continuously reduce interest rates, has created money to finance the "welfare" state. When government’s fiat money enters the economy in the form of checks for expenditures, rather than through the loan mar­ket, the sequence of events and the effects are a little different.

Men usually hold their money as savings, but as prices continue to rise over the years of govern­ment deficit spending, men realize that the pieces of paper they hold are continuously and progressively depreciating in value — that in­flation is becoming a way of life. Once men begin to lose confidence in government’s fiat money, it’s only a matter of time before the years of simple inflation burst in­to hyperinflation and monetary collapse.

Thus, whether government tries to stimulate the economy or to finance programs that it cannot afford, the fiat standard is self-de­feating and counter-productive. The consequences of America’s fiat standard have been mild by historical standards: the Great Depression of the ’30’s, an end­less series of booms and busts since then, and a depreciation of the dollar by about 92 percent. So much for the "practicality" of the fiat standard!

The Meaning of the Gold Standard


In a free society, no man, group of men, or government has the "right" to infringe upon the rights of others. This means that within a free society, the initia­tion of force is banned. All goals must be attained through persua­sion and voluntary cooperation, and no goal may be achieved at the expense of any man — not for the "good" of another man, not for the "good" of the state, and not for the "good" of society. A system of voluntary exchange is a system of laissez-faire capitalism. Under capitalism, man’s rights are supreme. They are defended by government — not violated by government.

A gold standard is an integral part of a free society; a fiat stand­ard is an integral part of a con­trolled society. A gold standard cannot exist without the consent of individuals; a fiat standard cannot exist without the initiated force of government. A gold stand­ard is based on voluntary exchange, the recognition of men’s values, and respect for private property; a fiat standard is based on compulsory "exchange," the de­nial of men’s values, and the insidi­ous confiscation of private prop­erty.

Wealth is production, and gold is the equivalent of wealth pro­duced. Because neither wealth nor gold can be created out of nothing, neither wealth nor gold are pos­sible without men of intelligence, men of ability, and men of produc­tivity. Fiat is force and is the equivalent of wealth confiscated. Both fiat and force are the tools of the envious and the cowardly.

Where a gold standard is welcomed by the best of men, the fiat stand­ard is welcomed by the worst of men. Where the gold standard de­mands the earned, the fiat stand­ard grants the unearned. Where a gold standard evolves from indi­vidual choice, a fiat standard evolves from government edict. Where a gold standard necessi­tates only that men be left free to act, to choose, and to trade, a fiat standard invites government to control, to regulate, and to dic­tate men’s choices, actions, and the terms of trade.

Gold limits the government’s power to spend more money than it receives in taxes, and in doing so, gold limits the government’s arbitrary power over the economy; gold checks artificial money and credit expansion; it prevents arti­ficial "booms" which lead to very real "busts"; gold protects individuals from economically un­sound government programs; and it protects citizens from the in­flationary confiscation of private property. Not only is the gold standard the most practical mone­tary system yet discovered, it is a standard consistent with freedom — yet it is the gold standard that today’s Policy Makers either ig­nore or denounce.




--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Yrat]
    #11259029 - 10/16/09 09:36 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
the correct definition of inflation is the expansion of the money supply.  you "inflate" the amount of currency in circulation.  as a result, prices rise.  this is the most common misunderstanding of the word.  the rising prices are a market correction to match the amount of new money in circulation.



I believe we're in agreement.  The market DOES correct itself by adjusting prices.


--------------------
I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
                                                                 


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #11259551 - 10/16/09 11:04 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
Quote:


The Gold Standard: A Standard For Freedom
By Paul Nathan 
Oct 2 2009
.
.
.







This is material that's already been discussed and refuted.  Rather than repeating old material, why not argue with the refutations?

We already KNOW printing money leads to inflation - that's NOT a new revelation!  If it's done in a controlled manner, then the money supply is NOT in danger.  If the Gov't decides to print too much at a time, then there can be a money crisis.  We KNOW!  I'm sure the US Gov't understands that too.  That's why we're borrowing from China and not just printing new money.


--------------------
I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
                                                                 


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11260095 - 10/16/09 12:48 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
You are not looking at the fact that the market is not allowed to adjust during the bust phase of the economic cycle.  The government quick fix is to inflate the money supply and create the illusion of prosperity.

That is why they are called business cycles, they have a disturbing tendency to repeat and inflate the money supply.


 

Disturbing?  Like the sun being obscured by clouds on a significant portion of the days of the year?  It just is and always will be.
Quote:





There is nothing steady or normal about the rate of government spending today, it is simply unprecedented.




We have truly reached a pinnacle of that.  But that is not the only thing you are decrying.  We agree on that 100%.  What we don't agree on is central banking and fiat currency as demons
Quote:



You did not address the fact that those who receive the increase in the money supply first benefit because they can spend the money without feeling the effects of inflation.




Note the word you use there.  Spend.  I love rich people.  They have made my living very comfortable.
Quote:



By the time new money reaches most folk the prices have begun to adjust to the influx of new money as the economy enters the bust phase of the cycle.

Can you see that the inflation of the money supply does not benefit most Americans?




I do not think it is the demon you do.  Like I said repeatedly, moderated inflation is not a problem.  Zimbabwe inflation is.  THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.  You do not do your argument much good when you cite the Weimar Republic and that nonsense of the dollar losing 96% of it's value over the last century.  It is irrelevant.
Quote:

 


How do you figure that there would be wild swings in money valuations if people were using precious metals?  That is typically what the market uses in a free market situation.




Because there were.  Precious metals are commodities.  Think about what would happen if technology suddenly found a huge new miracle use for some precious metal that the currency was tied to.  How stable would that valuation be?  And for nothing having to do with finances.
Quote:



The P.M.s would raise in value over time in relation to the increase in production caused by technological innovation.  This is the definition of prosperity.




Precious metal prices tend to devalue.  I believe there was a rather famous bet among economists on that a few years ago.
Quote:



How can you think devaluing the medium of exchange benefits people?

Artificially low interest rates are what the central bank causes.  Artificially low interest rates encourage debt.  Inflation and low interest rates discourage savings Savings is central to capitalism itself.




That last paragraph makes me think you have no clue.  The central bank controls inter bank lending rates.  That's it.  Some other rates are sometimes tied to it but not all that tightly.  When inflation is high, rates are high.  Look at the eighties.  Rate setting lags inflation.  I see no reason to believe it will be otherwise with or without a central bank.  Low interest rates encourage spending.  Spending drives industry and jobs.  Spending is central to capitalism, not saving.  And by spending I do not mean government spending.  Government spending is not at all capitalism, at least not when there is progressive taxation.  Government spending plus progressive taxation is socialism.


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11262107 - 10/16/09 06:24 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

No, government control of the money supply is not something that historically lasts long.  The government, like any monopoly, turns out an inferior product that costs too much.  In this case, the lack of monetary competition has given the people a medium of exchange that does not hold it's value and could result in hyperinflation.

What you could look at is M2, which was increased by between 500-800 billion recently.  I can find you the graphs on M2 if you are lacking the motivation.  If other nations move away from using the dollar (like what China, Russia, and Brazil are doing now... the obvious result would be a tremendous decline in the dollar's buying power abroad.  Americans would find that they can't afford cheap goods from China.  Did you know that until a couple months ago we were the #1 trading partner with Brazil since James Madison was President.  Now China does more business with Brazil than we do...

I can take apart the lack of logic that is the keynesian system "bit by bit" if that is what it takes.


Let's start with your support for fiat currency, why do you suppose that fiat is economically good?

I had thought that monopolies are bad for any economy, why should there be a monopoly on the medium of exchange?



Artificially low interest rates encourage debtand discourage savings.  Sure, the fed sets the interbank lending rates, and the rates that they lend to the fractional reserve banks.  If that rate is lower than interest rates in general are lower. 

Politicians want to create the illusion of prosperity while they are in power.  This is accomplished through easy money from the fed.



Here's what's funny though, keynesian "thought" does not see the value in savings...  Without real savings there is no real prosperity.  You can not contend with that.





When government takes large amounts of money that was just created, taxed, or borrowed and spends it into a sector of the economy that is lagging systemic economic damage is caused.  One scenario would be the federal government bailing out California.  They would be siphoning off the economic prosperity created by more efficient and productive states and giving money to a state that is irresponsible and unproductive.  The real danger is the moral hazard it creates when other states cry out "me too"!










Do you admit that inflating the money supply has consequences??? 





I don't like repeating myself but, in your intellectual cowardice, you did cravenly ignore that most damning question to the keynesian inflation "argument".

"You did not address the fact that those who receive the increase in the money supply first benefit because they can spend the money without feeling the effects of inflation."

It is the same as with any form of counterfeiting.  Why should counterfeiting be illegal for all but the government and the central bank, who have set themselves up with a monopoly on counterfeiting.


What says the craven keynesian, what say you!?!







M1 data recent years:





http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FiNhXIv5StE/SQXKhZEMXtI/AAAAAAAACiQ/AtnGLPvOnpg/s1600-h/M1Chart.png








Zap and Falcon:



See how M2, the money held in reserve by the fractional reserve banking has increased by 7 trillion.



Recall that fractional reserve banking multiplies the fractional reserve money into the economy in the form of credit (debt).

The first graph shows that M1 has went from around 100 billion to just under 800 billion.



It is interesting that M1 and M2 increased proportionally.

The keynesian economics doesn't like to get into price theory.......




Edited by Mr.Al (10/17/09 01:57 PM)


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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11267320 - 10/17/09 05:43 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
No, government control of the money supply is not something that historically lasts long.  The government, like any monopoly, turns out an inferior product that costs too much.



How long has the British pound lasted again???

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
In this case, the lack of monetary competition has given the people a medium of exchange that does not hold it's value and could result in hyperinflation.



Once again - it is understood that inflation is part of our current system.  Hyperinflation will only result if the money supply is mismanaged.  So far the US Gov't has managed to keep inflation around 3% per year (plus or minus a small percentage), which is sustainable.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
What you could look at is M2, which was increased by between 500-800 billion recently.  I can find you the graphs on M2 if you are lacking the motivation.  If other nations move away from using the dollar (like what China, Russia, and Brazil are doing now... the obvious result would be a tremendous decline in the dollar's buying power abroad.  Americans would find that they can't afford cheap goods from China.  Did you know that until a couple months ago we were the #1 trading partner with Brazil since James Madison was President.  Now China does more business with Brazil than we do...



Are you saying Chinese currency is on the gold standard?  If so, you're wrong.  If not, that's just a Red Herring.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
I can take apart the lack of logic that is the keynesian system "bit by bit" if that is what it takes.



You're free to begin anytime.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Let's start with your support for fiat currency, why do you suppose that fiat is economically good?

I had thought that monopolies are bad for any economy, why should there be a monopoly on the medium of exchange?



Have you not been reading anyone else's posts?  There was already a discussion on this beginning here.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Artificially low interest rates encourage debtand discourage savings.  Sure, the fed sets the interbank lending rates, and the rates that they lend to the fractional reserve banks.  If that rate is lower than interest rates in general are lower. 

Politicians want to create the illusion of prosperity while they are in power.  This is accomplished through easy money from the fed.



Here's what's funny though, keynesian "thought" does not see the value in savings...  Without real savings there is no real prosperity.  You can not contend with that.



Please explain this.  If I earn $250k per year, and I use it to buy a mansion, three exotic cars, luxurious vacations, etc., you're saying I only have the illusion of prosperity???  Whatever.

Edit:  If you're saying deficit spending is false prosperity, then I'll agree with you.  You get more now, but pay for it later in extra taxes.  But that has nothing to do with fiat money.  That would be the case under the gold standard as well.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
When government takes large amounts of money that was just created, taxed, or borrowed and spends it into a sector of the economy that is lagging systemic economic damage is caused.  One scenario would be the federal government bailing out California.  They would be siphoning off the economic prosperity created by more efficient and productive states and giving money to a state that is irresponsible and unproductive.  The real danger is the moral hazard it creates when other states cry out "me too"!



I won't argue this point, but it's another red herring.  Bailouts aren't a product of Keynesianism, they are a product of politics.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Do you admit that inflating the money supply has consequences???



Inflation is well understood.  How many times do I have to tell you that???

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
I don't like repeating myself but, in your intellectual cowardice, you did cravenly ignore that most damning question to the keynesian inflation "argument".

"You did not address the fact that those who receive the increase in the money supply first benefit because they can spend the money without feeling the effects of inflation."



I don't like repeating myself either.  Here was my answer:

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Whoever receives Gov't money benefits from it.  That includes soldiers, schools, the elderly, etc.  Unfortunately, Goldman Sachs has recently gotten some Gov't money too, but that has nothing to do with fiat money, it's because they convinced Congress to give it to them after they lost a shitload (and I'll agree that's a real shame).




Edit #2:  And by the way, inflation is relatively contant at about 3% per year.  It doesn't really matter when you get your money, you know that from that point on the value of that money will decline about 3% per year.  You're completely overestimating this point.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Zap and Falcon:



See how M2, the money held in reserve by the fractional reserve banking has increased by 7 trillion.



Recall that fractional reserve banking multiplies the fractional reserve money into the economy in the form of credit (debt).

The first graph shows that M1 has went from around 100 billion to just under 800 billion.



It is interesting that M1 and M2 increased proportionally.

The keynesian economics doesn't like to get into price theory.......






It is interesting that Mr.Al doesn't understand the graphs he's showing.  The fractional reserve system was designed for the money supply to grow.  M1 and M2 will grow accordingly.  So long as the rate of growth remains relatively constant, there isn't a problem.  If the Fed suddenly decides to print 10x what it used to, then there is a risk of hyperinflation.  THAT'S UNDERSTOOD; YOU DON'T HAVE TO KEEP REPEATING YOURSELF.

Edit #3:  By the way, your M1 and M2 graphs are deceptive.  Since those money supplies were meant to grow, you should have plotted them on a logarithmic scale rather than a linear one.  Here is a more accurate representation of their rate of growth:





For those that don't understand I will try to explain.  If something grows 100% a year, it will go from 1 to 2 to 4 to 8 to 16 etc.  On a linear scale, it appears that the rate is growing out of control, even though it's a constant 100% growth.  On a logarithmic scale, it will appear as a straight diagonal line because the rate is constant.  Much like the M1 and M2 growth on the charts I just posted (I chose 100% for simplicity - the same is true for any rate of growth).


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (10/20/09 02:16 PM)


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #11269400 - 10/18/09 12:50 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

When other countries are beginning to reject the dollar and Brazil, who traded more with us than any other country since James Madison was President I think we have a problem.

Notice the talk about tariffs on certain Chinese goods....

Trade protectionism was a key ingredient in the global descent into the Great Depression.

What do you suppose happens when dollars circulating abroad come back here when major economic players (say: Russia, China, Brazil & other South American countries) dump the dollar wholesale?

Only an ostrich could not see what would happen to the American economy in a situation of trade protectionism and a massive flood of dollars returning from abroad.  Our manufacturing sector is not particularly strong, so I don't see production compensating for the skyrocketing prices....





What you don't see regarding deficit  spending and government debt, is that the government debt is accumulated much faster when they have a monopoly on money.


Monetary competition would prevent government from being able to devalue the fiat too much.  Otherwise the fiat falls out of use entirely.  How is it that you would recognize that monopolies are bad for everything but money itself?



The keynesian system allows for the possibility for  massive government bailouts.  This would not be the case in a free market.



DEFICIT SPENDING HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH KEYNESIAN "ECONOMICS" BECAUSE KEYNESIAN ECONOMICS CALLS FOR MASSIVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING WHEN ECONOMIC DOWNTURNS OCCUR.



Bernanke has monetized debt.  If China decides that the debt instruments they are holding are not worthwhile (they have been complaining about excessive money creation lately and I'm sure the recent tariffs aren't making them happy) they will call in that debt.


How would the fed deal with China calling in U.S. debt?



I say that keynesians aren't interested in price theory because they don't think there are consequences to inflationary monetary policy.




Do you not understand that there are consequences to inflating the money supply?  You claim that "inflation is understood"?  That is ducking the question.  What do you think the consequences of inflation are?

Increasing the money supply has nothing to do with production.  Money is the medium of exchange. 


Increasing the money supply is what causes the destructive business cycles.


Again, you fail to address that the system you support creates systemic damage to the economy by handing large amounts of new money to their "too big to fail" corporate friends.

It is not logical to claim to be against government bailouts and yet support the system that does exactly that.


Edited by Mr.Al (10/18/09 12:55 AM)


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Offlinecrookedjunk
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11270414 - 10/18/09 09:02 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

stop with all the filibustering, folks. the truth is this:

obama rules
clinton is a pimp
neocons and ignorant libertarians suck

that is the truth for the day


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: crookedjunk]
    #11270669 - 10/18/09 09:59 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

What would we do without your pithy and insightful analysis?  I wonder how we ever survived the wilderness without you.  Had you not been so niggardly with your wisdom all that time we might have become truly enlightened individuals.


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Offlinecrookedjunk
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11270954 - 10/18/09 10:57 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

you sound like a sourpuss. Obama does it for your sake.

sourpuss.


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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: crookedjunk]
    #11270956 - 10/18/09 10:58 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

how do you resize images? my bad


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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11271005 - 10/18/09 11:10 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
When other countries are beginning to reject the dollar and Brazil, who traded more with us than any other country since James Madison was President I think we have a problem.

Notice the talk about tariffs on certain Chinese goods....

Trade protectionism was a key ingredient in the global descent into the Great Depression.



This demonstrates a clear lack of understanding of economics and history on your part.  The reason China has become so powerful is because businesses have outsourced so much manufacturing there.  Free markets have allowed this.  Whether this is good or bad is debatable, but it's not protectionism that got us into this position.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
What do you suppose happens when dollars circulating abroad come back here when major economic players (say: Russia, China, Brazil & other South American countries) dump the dollar wholesale?

Only an ostrich could not see what would happen to the American economy in a situation of trade protectionism and a massive flood of dollars returning from abroad.  Our manufacturing sector is not particularly strong, so I don't see production compensating for the skyrocketing prices....




I don't think I've ever debated with anyone who keeps bring up the same point time and time again while ignoring all previous answers.  Please rebut previous answers, or accept them.  Don't bring up the same points over and over that have been rebutted.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
What you don't see regarding deficit  spending and government debt, is that the government debt is accumulated much faster when they have a monopoly on money.

Monetary competition would prevent government from being able to devalue the fiat too much.  Otherwise the fiat falls out of use entirely.  How is it that you would recognize that monopolies are bad for everything but money itself?



How many times has this question been answered?  Why don't you refute the previous answers rather than ask them again?

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
The keynesian system allows for the possibility for  massive government bailouts.  This would not be the case in a free market.



Please explain why Government could not take on debt in a free market.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
DEFICIT SPENDING HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH KEYNESIAN "ECONOMICS" BECAUSE KEYNESIAN ECONOMICS CALLS FOR MASSIVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING WHEN ECONOMIC DOWNTURNS OCCUR.



Correct.  And that's not the same as massive creation of money (for the dozenth time).  If we created money to cover expenses, we wouldn't have debt, would we?  WHY ARE YOU SO INCAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING OR DEBATING THIS???

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Bernanke has monetized debt.  If China decides that the debt instruments they are holding are not worthwhile (they have been complaining about excessive money creation lately and I'm sure the recent tariffs aren't making them happy) they will call in that debt.


How would the fed deal with China calling in U.S. debt?



You've brought this up before, and it has been answered already.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
I say that keynesians aren't interested in price theory because they don't think there are consequences to inflationary monetary policy.



This has been answered too.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Do you not understand that there are consequences to inflating the money supply?  You claim that "inflation is understood"?  That is ducking the question.  What do you think the consequences of inflation are?



This has been answered as well.  Inflation means the value of money goes down, typically about 3% per year.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Increasing the money supply has nothing to do with production.  Money is the medium of exchange.



I know.  And I've agreed with you on this point time and time again.  What's your new point?

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Increasing the money supply is what causes the destructive business cycles.



No.  And I've responded to this already.  Increasing the money supply is what causes inflation.  We've seen it now for the last 40 years.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Again, you fail to address that the system you support creates systemic damage to the economy by handing large amounts of new money to their "too big to fail" corporate friends.

It is not logical to claim to be against government bailouts and yet support the system that does exactly that.



I've addressed this also.  It's not Keynesianism that bails corporations out.  It's politicians.

Prove me wrong or quit bringing up the same points over and over

It appears you're a lot less intelligent than I thought.  You don't debate things, you just repeat old arguments.


--------------------
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: crookedjunk]
    #11271063 - 10/18/09 11:24 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

crookedjunk said:
you sound like a sourpuss. Obama does it for your sake.





Troll.


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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #11271066 - 10/18/09 11:25 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

This thread is dead, and now bitching between the usual's.

Tee-Yoo-Arr-Tee-Ell-Eee-Power
Tee-Yoo-Arr-Tee-Ell-Eee-Power
Tee-Yoo-Arr-Tee-Ell-Eee-Power
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
Tee-Yoo-Arr-Tee-Ell-Eee-Power
Tee-Yoo-Arr-Tee-Ell-Eee-Power
Tee-Yoo-Arr-Tee-Ell-Eee-Power
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turles

I quit. I can't get a noose on noose sites, noose papers, noose couriers, carrier pigeons with no(insert)r(/insert)orse gods, or chicks with dicks.

And this entire thread REALLY sucks, and has been a personal thread for partisan infighting between ol' shitty conserves without Jesus and new' faggy tweens without Jesus.

Can't we all just hate jesus together? And his douche browner ?fanboy and all the queefs that he supposedly was 'New' to?

Fuck ya'll I'm watching footloose.

(Really, if there was a topic here to discuss I would try to insert a reality-based post that was not simply snark, but I read the same fucking posts from people who think that "liberals" would post on the political section of a focus site; and folks who like Frank Zappa, or his kids, and a fantastic steakhouse during the year 2004.)

I wasted your time writing this and if you've read this far, Zappa was a great musician, but there is little to no political discussion on this forum. Mostly just demagogues jerking each other off, usually the wrong way.

Politics still sucks, this is clear, and drug dealers help you more than people and suits or on message boards.

And Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III... still really sucks. Feudal Japan? Why?





~Monk


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: numonkei]
    #11271194 - 10/18/09 11:51 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

numonkei said:
This thread is dead, and now bitching between the usual's.

Tee-Yoo-Arr-Tee-Ell-Eee-Power
Tee-Yoo-Arr-Tee-Ell-Eee-Power
Tee-Yoo-Arr-Tee-Ell-Eee-Power
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
Tee-Yoo-Arr-Tee-Ell-Eee-Power
Tee-Yoo-Arr-Tee-Ell-Eee-Power
Tee-Yoo-Arr-Tee-Ell-Eee-Power
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turles

I quit. I can't get a noose on noose sites, noose papers, noose couriers, carrier pigeons with no(insert)r(/insert)orse gods, or chicks with dicks.

And this entire thread REALLY sucks, and has been a personal thread for partisan infighting between ol' shitty conserves without Jesus and new' faggy tweens without Jesus.

Can't we all just hate jesus together? And his douche browner ?fanboy and all the queefs that he supposedly was 'New' to?

Fuck ya'll I'm watching footloose.

(Really, if there was a topic here to discuss I would try to insert a reality-based post that was not simply snark, but I read the same fucking posts from people who think that "liberals" would post on the political section of a focus site; and folks who like Frank Zappa, or his kids, and a fantastic steakhouse during the year 2004.)

I wasted your time writing this and if you've read this far, Zappa was a great musician, but there is little to no political discussion on this forum. Mostly just demagogues jerking each other off, usually the wrong way.

Politics still sucks, this is clear, and drug dealers help you more than people and suits or on message boards.

And Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III... still really sucks. Feudal Japan? Why?
~Monk




Thank you for that brilliant disquisition.  Good bye.


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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: numonkei]
    #11271902 - 10/18/09 02:13 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

..there is little to no political discussion on this forum. Mostly just demagogues jerking each other off




You're just now noticing this?


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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #11275367 - 10/19/09 12:15 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

There is no "free market" allowing businesses to be outsourced to China.

You are wrong.

I mention trade protectionism and tariffs because China holds a large amount of U.S. debt.

If the U.S.D. is no longer the world reserve fiat they will call that debt in.

Come on man, the Smoot-Hawley tariff act was a piece of legislation that precipitated world-wide trade protectionism.

Trade protectionism is something to look out for when forecasting world-wide economic events.

This was a major ingredient of the slide towards the Great Depression.  Consider Hoover's artificially high wage fixing that created massive unemployment.  Here's a free market view on the Great Depression.  Ask yourself why Bernanke has been wrong for years... It's because he has a flawed understanding of history!


http://mises.org/story/3689



In case you missed it:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/10/china-has-already-walked-away-from.html

Russia, China, and other major economic players have been putting together a currency basket.  I can only conclude that they are backing away from holding dollars and U.S. debt instruments.


You did not give any real response to what would happen if dollars abroad flood the U.S. economy.

You fail utterly to comprehend that government would not have grown to it's Leviathan size were it not for it's control of the money supply.  People would not tolerate the obvious massive taxation this would entail.  Inflation is something that they have been indoctrinated, like yourself, to accept.  Thus, they use inflationary monetary policy and accumulation of debt (to the degree that anyone with half a functioning brain would know that would not be possible without a monopoly on legal tender) to facilitate government expansion and spending.  Government spending is less efficient than the private sector and thus any non-essential government spending makes the economy as a whole less productive.

I recommend you not attempt to debate that government spending is as efficient as the private sector. 



Massive government debt is mortgaging the future.  It shows that our current prosperity is borrowed against that mortgaged future.

How do you suppose government will pay that debt?

Any way you cut it the people of America foot the bill.


These are just a few reasons as to why you are wrong.

Here's a graph comparing Government Debt obligation versus G.D.P.:



courtesy shadowstats.com




Again, recall that the Keynesian system calls for central economic planners and central banks.  They are the individuals who immorally bail out bankrupt corporations.


Explain your "logic" of supporting the system that bails out "too big to fail" and yet personally not support the "bail outs".  You don't make sense.


Edited by Mr.Al (10/19/09 12:27 AM)


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