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 Shins
Fun guy
 
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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 US support of Israel
#11255093 - 10/15/09 05:02 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why does the USA support Israel's oppressive, racist, elitist regime?
I'd like to know your opinion.
This is important because it's why "the terrorists" don't like the USA, and it ties in to world war one, two, and possibly three.
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Truth - Love - Courage
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11255162 - 10/15/09 05:13 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
Why does the USA support Israel's oppressive, racist, elitist regime?
I'd like to know your opinion.
This is important because it's why "the terrorists" don't like the USA, and it ties in to world war one, two, and possibly three.
I support U.S. alliance with Israel. Islamic Fascist don't respect my way of life, and I guess the way I see it the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Make any sense, or do you completely disagree.
Oh yea, and if you think that the terrorist, and Hamas, and Hezbollah will just put there guns down, and hug the U.S. if we change our policy toward Israel then I have to disagree with you.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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 luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 20,721
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11255243 - 10/15/09 05:24 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
Why does the USA support Israel's oppressive, racist, elitist regime?
I'd like to know your opinion.
This is important because it's why "the terrorists" don't like the USA, and it ties in to world war one, two, and possibly three.
Probably because they are not oppressive, racist, or elitist.
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Quote:
Simplicitry said:
I support U.S. alliance with Israel. Islamic Fascist don't respect my way of life, and I guess the way I see it the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Make any sense, or do you completely disagree.
Oh yea, and if you think that the terrorist, and Hamas, and Hezbollah will just put there guns down, and hug the U.S. if we change our policy toward Israel then I have to disagree with you.
do you really know that "Islamic Fascist don't respect my way of life?" Or do you believe that because it's what's repeated most often in the media?
you don't think that the discontent Arab extremists have has anything to do with the USA's part in world war one and two, and the re-creation of Israel?
If the USA stopped supporting Israel and took a negative approach to it i GUARANTEE a lot of "terrorists" would rejoice the US. though of course it won't erase the past.
on the topic of "Islamic Fascist don't respect my way of life" I'd like to point out here that the USA is largely christian, and as such follows the teachings of Jesus. Muslims accept Jesus as well as other people "of the book" including Jews.
Jewish scripture on the other hand, condemns non-Jews (gentiles) to be of lower racial status, and worth less than a Jew, and that it's okay to abuse non-Jews.
The Jews also had Jesus killed.
why does a supposedly christian nation support another nation who believes Jesus was shit, and a nation who supports the ones who had him killed?
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Truth - Love - Courage
Edited by Shins (10/15/09 06:08 PM)
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Tedwilto
Veni, vidi, vici
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Posts: 5,158
Loc: Sunny Afternoon in
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11255527 - 10/15/09 06:15 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I dont knwo too much about the issue but i found this video interesting.
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Song of the week, click Huey:
Song of the week list in journal.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,804
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11255563 - 10/15/09 06:22 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Muslims don't like anybody. They regularly war with any and every nation they can, regardless of connection to Israel. Your are just lapping up leftist bullshit that all revolves around white guilt.
I support U.S. alliance with Israel.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11255632 - 10/15/09 06:31 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
Quote:
Simplicitry said:
I support U.S. alliance with Israel. Islamic Fascist don't respect my way of life, and I guess the way I see it the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Make any sense, or do you completely disagree.
Oh yea, and if you think that the terrorist, and Hamas, and Hezbollah will just put there guns down, and hug the U.S. if we change our policy toward Israel then I have to disagree with you.
do you really know that "Islamic Fascist don't respect my way of life?" Or do you believe that because it's what's repeated most often in the media?
you don't think that the discontent Arab extremists have has anything to do with the USA's part in world war one and two, and the re-creation of Israel?
If the USA stopped supporting Israel and took a negative approach to it i GUARANTEE a lot of "terrorists" would rejoice the US. though of course it won't erase the past.
on the topic of "Islamic Fascist don't respect my way of life" I'd like to point out here that the USA is largely christian, and as such follows the teachings of Jesus. Muslims accept Jesus as well as other people "of the book" including Jews.
Jewish scripture on the other hand, condemns non-Jews (gentiles) to be of lower racial status, and worth less than a Jew, and that it's okay to abuse non-Jews.
The Jews also had Jesus killed.
why does a supposedly christian nation support another nation who believes Jesus was shit, and a nation who supports the ones who had him killed?
First of all if you want to start having this conversation under the assumption that I only recieve information from mainstream media that's your own problem, but I don't just get my information only from the mainstream media. Actually the history of Israel, and the middle east is one of my deepest interests because it has such a strong influence over the worlds current problems.
Second of all I'm not a Christian, but I am of Christian decent, and from a Christian nation. If you mean to sit, and tell me that Islam is a friend of the west, or of Christians then I think you need to be a little more honest with yourself. Yes, Yes, I'm familiar with the term Dhimmi(Arabic for poeple of the Book i.e. Christians, and Jews), but let's be serious about that aspect. Dhimmi have to pay an extra tax in Muslim country, and recognize Muslim superiority to have peaceful existence. And what about Hindu's, Buddhists, and atheist. They are not protected all. No they are to be dealt with by the sword.
I fought against the Islamic enemy on the battle field. I am a proud veteran. I did so because I don't want to see my country end up a Theocracy like Iran where the church controls the government. I believe in separation of church and state.
I would like to see you write back that Islam believes in separation of church and state because I'll call you a liar.
Be honest with yourself. Islam is not a friend of the west, just like the west is not a friend of Islam. The Crusades, The wars everything.
let's call it what it really is
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
Edited by Simplicitry (10/18/09 12:33 PM)
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: DieCommie]
#11255674 - 10/15/09 06:38 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Muslims don't like anybody. They regularly war with any and every nation they can, regardless of connection to Israel. Your are just lapping up leftist bullshit that all revolves around white guilt.
I support U.S. alliance with Israel.
I don't subscribe to "the left" or accusations of "white guilt" other than what's the truth. the truth is what i try to subscribe to.
"Muslims don't like anybody." is bullshit. do you know any Muslims? have you asked him/her if that's true? it's not. Muslims are mostly kind, good, loving people.
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Truth - Love - Courage
Edited by Shins (10/15/09 06:38 PM)
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,804
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11255697 - 10/15/09 06:41 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, I do know some muslims. Western ones here in the states. Obviously I am using a generality that refers to the majority (who are not western) and to which anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. Nearly every conflict on the planet today involves muslims. Be they asian, arab, black or white - be they right or wrong, the fact is almost every single armed conflict on the planet involves them. Every single place where a muslim majority lives next to a non-muslim majority there is violence. Israel/Palestine is just one of dozens of such cases.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: DieCommie]
#11255764 - 10/15/09 06:52 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Yes, I do know some muslims. Western ones here in the states. Obviously I am using a generality that refers to the majority (who are not western) and to which anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. Nearly every conflict on the planet today involves muslims. Be they asian, arab, black or white - be they right or wrong, the fact is almost every single armed conflict on the planet involves them. Every single place where a muslim majority lives next to a non-muslim majority there is violence. Israel/Palestine is just one of dozens of such cases.
Amen Brother. It's so true.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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To the OP are you Muslim or Arabic? You said your not a leftist so this would be my next guess.
I suppose every white American should move to Europe so the Native Americans can have there land back?
It's the same with the Jews, and Palistinians. You want to know who deserves the holy land. The people who are powerful enough to hold it, because that's the only way it can be. It's not like they're going to share it with one another.
Let's be serious there is no solution short of the Jews leaving, and that's not going to happen. And problems with the west, and Islam have much deeper roots then just Isreal. They were killing each other long before the word holocust, Isreal, and palistine were the main words in the conflict.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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What Happened to the OP, what you don't want to discuss your topic anymore.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Registered: 05/01/08
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Loc: Florida
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11256138 - 10/15/09 07:48 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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It sounds like you are making a statement about a subject you know nothing about. Every thing you said was far from the truth, as to raise suspicion of intent.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: C.M. Mann]
#11256174 - 10/15/09 07:53 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
C.M. Mann said:
It sounds like you are making a statement about a subject you know nothing about. Every thing you said was far from the truth, as to raise suspicion of intent.
Who's statement are you refering to? The OP?
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 6 months, 12 days
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: C.M. Mann]
#11256224 - 10/15/09 08:00 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
C.M. Mann said:
It sounds like you are making a statement about a subject you know nothing about.
You should know all about that, huh?
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11256782 - 10/15/09 09:27 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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im not arabic, and i wouldn't call myself a muslum.
is this whole thing a crazy religous battle for world dominace? crusades continued?
how do you fix thousands of years of bigotry? and why did the USA ever get involved? I like seperation of church from state too, so why support Israel?
Is one side going to try again to obliterate the other before people learn to live in peace?
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Truth - Love - Courage
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,804
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11256832 - 10/15/09 09:35 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Is one side going to try again to obliterate the other before people learn to live in peace?
Yes, Palestine's official position is the destruction of the Israeli state and solely a Palestinian state in the region. That is the position of Palestine's financial supporters as well.
Israel, and it's financial supporters, official position is a two state solution where there is no destruction of either state and they coexist.
Israel is not willing to give up its status as a state, Palestine is not willing to coexist. So they fight.
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THC Titan
Spoonman
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 590
Loc: FL, USA
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11256931 - 10/15/09 09:56 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:why does a supposedly christian nation support another nation who believes Jesus was shit, and a nation who supports the ones who had him killed?
I'm surprised nobody mentioned it. In order for the Second Coming of Christ to take place, the Jewish people have to have dominion over the city of Jerusalem.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,804
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: THC Titan]
#11256945 - 10/15/09 09:59 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Nobody mentioned it because its not true and its irrelevant.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: DieCommie]
#11258468 - 10/16/09 07:08 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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While I'm not sure if it's true since I don't subscribe to fairy tales, it certainly is relevant.
If Evangelical Christians believe that Israel must have their own state for the rapture to occur, then their rabid support of Israel will not be conditional on Israel ever acting appropriately.
This support is then passed onto their elected officials. Or the officials just believe the nonsense in the first place.
Quote:
Blumenthal opens the video by interviewing Tom Delay, who when asked how much the "Second Coming" plays into his support for Israel, says, "obviously, it's what I live for, I hope it comes tomorrow."
Delay closed by saying, "we have to be connected to Israel to enjoy the second coming."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/rapture-ready-the-unautho_b_57826.html
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Tri High
Whigro
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11259098 - 10/16/09 09:48 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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The Catholic Church created the religion known as Islam.
They commissioned a female to go down south and find a crazy, outgoing man. She found a guy named Mohammad. She encouraged him to do what he done. Told him what he "was", etc...
The whole of the conflict is because of the Catholics creating this religion.
The Catholics have the Jesuits to do their bidding covertly. There's a whole sect of belief along these lines. Books about it, and what not. Kind of crazy stuff, if you ask me, but what isn't crazy that's still true these days?
As for Israel and my country supporting them: GTFO of the middle east, America.
We need real people to be voted into office the next time elections come about. For serious. F the two party system. They're all b.s. puppets working in someone other than "your average American's" best interests.
Fuck them all. If we cannot elect better representatives, we then need to infiltrate the Political Action Committees that fund these candidates and tell them who's the better candidate and why.
The system has you and I by the balls. We can't keep allowing them to spend our money like it never ends.
Screw this crap, man. The system's boned.
Is there any way for the average American to propose bills, or somehow get things shifted in our legislative branch? Other than to wait until the terms run down?
Aloha,
Tri
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you just need money to get laid - starfire_xes
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 6 months, 12 days
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Tri High]
#11259153 - 10/16/09 09:58 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Nice crackpot theory. Do you have any support for this nonsense?
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Tri High
Whigro
Registered: 05/02/08
Posts: 11,769
Loc: Monaghan, Ireland
Last seen: 2 months, 16 days
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Tri High]
#11259495 - 10/16/09 10:54 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Books:
Understanding Daniel and the Revelation
Secret Terrorists ( http://www.pacinst.com/terrorists/preamble.html )
People:
A man I stayed with in Hawai'i. Seriously devout Christian guy. Kinda loony, but alright in his role. Masons do it with hookers to become 33rd degree. Then they kill the hooker, too.
The latter part of the above post was just my opinion.
Respect.
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you just need money to get laid - starfire_xes
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11260187 - 10/16/09 01:03 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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All I know is this The major player on my side of the war is the United States, followed second by the European Union. I'm an American, and in my country it is legal for people to be openly atheist. To deny the exists of god if they want.
No let's look at some of the most powerful players on the other side of the war like Iran, the Taliban, and all of those other theocratic states. They are not tolerant of other peoples right to deny God.
Muslims, and bleeding heart liberals will always try to tell you "Muslims allow people of other faiths to peacefully exist in there countries" The term for such protect people is "Dhimmi", and the only people that are protected under that part of sharia are Jews, and Christians because they are faiths that came from Abraham, and what he believed was the one true god.
These Muslims, and liberals will try to paint a Rosy picture of Islam that falls in line with there distorted view of how the world actually works. Like Muslims are going around the globe preaching religious tolerance, freedom of speech, and hugging puppies, but history and current actions paint quite a different picture for any one with eyes to see it.
I am not a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew, so Islam does not tolerate my right to religious expression. We have a term for that were I come from, and it's call Fascist.
I'm not so extreme to say that all Muslims everywhere are all bad people, but as a whole community combined under a Government they are not friendly, and tolerant of my Western belief system.
I am also not so extreme, and blind to believe that my side has not commit ed atrocities. We look out for our own interest just like everyone Else in the world, and if you stand in our way we will kill you. It's unfortunate, but that's the way things work in the world.
Quote:
Shins said:
how do you fix thousands of years of bigotry?
Simple answer: You can't, and people like you who think that the world problems are manageable by peaceful action are living in a dream world.
Quote:
Shins said:
Is one side going to try again to obliterate the other before people learn to live in peace?
If history has taught us anything it's that eventually one side is going to have to lose. If your Imagination has taken you to some place where Jews, and Palestinians are going to be hugging each other, and everyone will all just get along I have news for you man it's time to grow the fuck up. Utopia doesn't exist, and it never will.
The Jews, and Palestinians will never peacefully solve their problems, and that's as much the Palestinians fault as it is the Israelis.
Are the Palestinians wrong? No more then the Jews are for looking out for there interested.
If the power balance shifted today The Palestinians would inflict so much pain on the Jews it would not even be funny, and I couldn't blame them. The only good thing for the Jews, and my nation as an ally of the Jews, is that the power balance is in our favor.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Deekay
Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 2,923
Loc: 
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11260542 - 10/16/09 02:04 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I do not support our alliance with israel. I do not believe that their alliance is worth our funding and involvment. 
If Israel were to be taken over my any of the middle eastern countries I would be a happy camper. These countries and their cultures pose no worthwhile threat to us as far as I can tell. Also, any nuclear threat is proposterous, does the term MAD ring a bell? We spend half our budget on military if any shit hit the fan I do not doubt we could conquer any area of the middle east provided we had the political will to allow an effective invasion.
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GI_Luvmoney
Vote Republican!
Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 939
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11260564 - 10/16/09 02:08 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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GI_Luvmoney
Vote Republican!
Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 939
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The Saudis and Egyptians support Israel because they want Islamic fanatics to die so there's less terrorism in Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
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GI_Luvmoney
Vote Republican!
Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 939
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Redstorm = Sayeed
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Deekay]
#11260920 - 10/16/09 03:04 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deekay said:
I do not support our alliance with israel. I do not believe that their alliance is worth our funding and involvment.
If Israel were to be taken over my any of the middle eastern countries I would be a happy camper. These countries and their cultures pose no worthwhile threat to us as far as I can tell. Also, any nuclear threat is proposterous, does the term MAD ring a bell? We spend half our budget on military if any shit hit the fan I do not doubt we could conquer any area of the middle east provided we had the political will to allow an effective invasion.
You do know that Israel already has the means to defend itself. We do not back them because we love them. We do not back them because they need us to survive. We back them because the number one enemy of western culture is Islam. Not that they are a serious threat at all, but they are the most hostile to our culture compared to anyone else.
As a matter of fact they are not a threat what so ever. If NATO wasn't so tied up in humanitarian concerns we would have wiped our enemy off the face of the planet by now. We are so militarily Superior to our Islamic foes that a real war, not the nation building bullshit that we are seeing now, but a real war would have such a devastating effects on their eastern culture it's inconceivable.
So what just because we are stronger means that we are the ones that are evil?
Just because we are stronger we should let people with intolerance toward people of other cultures knock our buildings down with our planes, bomb our embassies in Kenya, our barracks in Saudi Arabia, our boats in the water?
Just know that there will always be Americans like myself who seek vengeance for our dead.
One of you people would argue that they only attacked us for our stance on Israel, but I would say bullshit, because there is a whole history of violence between our two cultures before 1947 when Israel first became the modern state that it is. And trying to point a finger at who started the conflict is futile because it was going on before your great great great grandpa was around.
If the U.S. pulled out of the middle east it would not solve the problem that eastern Muslims do not embrace western culture. Hezbollah, Hamas, The Taliban, Al Qaeda, and all of the other Islamic groups in the middle east share one very common thread, Their hatred of western culture, and there hatred of the fact that we dominate the world.
They will not simply put down their weapons. And as I said before the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Which is why I'm a friend of Israel.
Oh yea, and I can't wait till Israel fucks Iran hardcore. It's coming mark my words
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11260988 - 10/16/09 03:12 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
im not arabic, and i wouldn't call myself a muslum.
is this whole thing a crazy religous battle for world dominace? crusades continued?
If eleven Jews can find a way to dominate billions of people then the billions deserve to be dominated.Quote:
how do you fix thousands of years of bigotry? and why did the USA ever get involved? I like seperation of church from state too, so why support Israel?
Read a history book. It is pretty much related to the cold war. Also consider just what piece of shit property was granted Israel as opposed to the incredibly lucrative land granted the Muslims when the Ottoman Empire was divvied up. A tiny resourceless piece of forsaken desert.
Quote:
Is one side going to try again to obliterate the other before people learn to live in peace?
There is only one side that appears to be interested in obliterating the other.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11261173 - 10/16/09 03:39 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
There is only one side that appears to be interested in obliterating the other.
One side talks tough. The other side acts tough. I'm sure you know which is which.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
 
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Well, one side tries to do both. I'm sure you know who.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11261433 - 10/16/09 04:29 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Well, one side tries to do both. I'm sure you know who.
Fair enough. I'm not interested in defending Palestinians, I just get annoyed when people appear to claim Israel does no wrong. Israel wants to destroy Palestine as much as the other way around, and both Governments have consistently shown they have no interest in peace. Israel refuses to halt settlement activity, which is a part of the international roadmap to peace. So I have the same question as the OP - why does the US support Israel? If they don't want peace, they should go their course alone.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
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Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Israel does not want to destroy "Palestine", whatever that is. They just want to be left alone.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,403
Last seen: 2 hours, 6 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11261510 - 10/16/09 04:39 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Israel does not want to destroy "Palestine", whatever that is. They just want to be left alone.
Fine - be a stickler for grammer. They want to take over the "Arab Land" with their settlements, as we've debated before:
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Well, one side tries to do both. I'm sure you know who.
Fair enough. I'm not interested in defending Palestinians, I just get annoyed when people appear to claim Israel does no wrong. Israel wants to destroy Palestine as much as the other way around, and both Governments have consistently shown they have no interest in peace. Israel refuses to halt settlement activity, which is a part of the international roadmap to peace. So I have the same question as the OP - why does the US support Israel? If they don't want peace, they should go their course alone.
I don't believe that Israel is innocent. I do not believe they are gods choosen ones. I do not beleive that they are right. I do not believe that they are wrong.
I do believe that they look out for there own interest just like everyone else on the planet does.
I believe it is in American interest to have a friendly nuclear power(Israel) that is not afraid of international condemnation within a very easy striking distance of Iran. Iran a country that burns our flag, hates our country, and is our enemy.
I'm not saying that all Iranians are evil. I'm saying that their beliefs, Ideals, and morals contradict what we as Americans believe in to the point of hostility.
If you lay down your sword, your enemy won't do the same. Especially one that has thousands of years worth of anger and hatred for you.
You know we could all go in circles for hours, and hours, but the bottom line is the west along with Israel has been on the dominate side for quite some time now, and I don't see that changing.
To all you Muslims who want to see the destruction of Israel, or the fall of the U.S. are just going to have to keep praying to Allah. Look at how well you've done with all your prayers so far. He's really taking care of you isn't he.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Yes, we can and have gone in circles forever and ever and ever. Here's the reality. The jews were given a teeny tiny slice of the Ottoman Empire when it was partitioned. Teeny. Tiny. And without any oil. The hundred million people in their immediate neighborhood, led by religious fanatics, have endeavored to destroy this tiny country for over 50 years. JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11261720 - 10/16/09 05:08 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Yes, we can and have gone in circles forever and ever and ever. Here's the reality. The jews were given a teeny tiny slice of the Ottoman Empire when it was partitioned. Teeny. Tiny. And without any oil. The hundred million people in their immediate neighborhood, led by religious fanatics, have endeavored to destroy this tiny country for over 50 years. JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS.
I'm with you man. Isamic intolerance is all to evident. Those who choose to ignore it, or can't see it are blind or stupid. One or the other.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Deekay
Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 2,923
Loc:
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
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Quote:
Simplicitry said:
Quote:
Deekay said:
I do not support our alliance with israel. I do not believe that their alliance is worth our funding and involvment.
If Israel were to be taken over my any of the middle eastern countries I would be a happy camper. These countries and their cultures pose no worthwhile threat to us as far as I can tell. Also, any nuclear threat is proposterous, does the term MAD ring a bell? We spend half our budget on military if any shit hit the fan I do not doubt we could conquer any area of the middle east provided we had the political will to allow an effective invasion.
You do know that Israel already has the means to defend itself. We do not back them because we love them. We do not back them because they need us to survive. We back them because the number one enemy of western culture is Islam. Not that they are a serious threat at all, but they are the most hostile to our culture compared to anyone else.
islam is not the #1 threat of the western world. find me the real reason that the U.S. funds them with money and weapons?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11261952 - 10/16/09 05:47 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
The hundred million people in their immediate neighborhood, led by religious fanatics, have endeavored to destroy this tiny country for over 50 years. JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS.
It used to be for that reason. Now it's because because of Israel's oppressive, racist, elitist regime.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Deekay]
#11262020 - 10/16/09 06:02 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deekay said:
Quote:
Simplicitry said:
Quote:
Deekay said:
I do not support our alliance with israel. I do not believe that their alliance is worth our funding and involvment.
If Israel were to be taken over my any of the middle eastern countries I would be a happy camper. These countries and their cultures pose no worthwhile threat to us as far as I can tell. Also, any nuclear threat is proposterous, does the term MAD ring a bell? We spend half our budget on military if any shit hit the fan I do not doubt we could conquer any area of the middle east provided we had the political will to allow an effective invasion.
You do know that Israel already has the means to defend itself. We do not back them because we love them. We do not back them because they need us to survive. We back them because the number one enemy of western culture is Islam. Not that they are a serious threat at all, but they are the most hostile to our culture compared to anyone else.
islam is not the #1 threat of the western world. find me the real reason that the U.S. funds them with money and weapons?
I'm assuming you have a reason. I'm always willing to listen to an alternative point of veiw.
So tell me, why is the U.S. backing Israel. Are we doing it because we want enemies we don't have to have.
I personally think we back them because we are enemies with Hezbollah, but that's just my opinion. What's yours?
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Also Deekay you said that they are not the greatest enemy of the west. Then who is?
I don't know the last time another group carried out an attack on American soil.
If your going to try to paint a pictrure of Muslims being warm, and cuddly you might as well save your breath for a young child, or liberal who still believes that your magic world of peace and understanding is something real.
And do any of you dreamers have a plan that would offer any kind of real chance of solving these problems?
It real easy to point out what's wrong, but to have a plan is a much more difficult thing to do.
I propose that the stronger of the two sides eventually has to win, because either side is to proud to just stand down.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,403
Last seen: 2 hours, 6 minutes
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Quote:
Simplicitry said:
I don't know the last time another group carried out an attack on American soil.
If your going to try to paint a pictrure of Muslims being warm, and cuddly you might as well save your breath for a young child, or liberal who still believes that your magic world of peace and understanding is something real.
Are you lumping all Muslims in with Al Qaeda???
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Simplicitry said:
I don't know the last time another group carried out an attack on American soil.
If your going to try to paint a pictrure of Muslims being warm, and cuddly you might as well save your breath for a young child, or liberal who still believes that your magic world of peace and understanding is something real.
Are you lumping all Muslims in with Al Qaeda???
Not all of them. But I do not blind myself to what most of the prodiminatly muslim countries policies toward my culture are. I refuse to be blind. I'm telling you that I feel that Islam is not a friend of the west, and that in many a mosque hatred, and intolerance for Agnostics like myself is very common.
Look at prodominatly Muslim countries. Like Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Afganistan (before the war). If you look at trends in their government you will begin to see troubling patterns from a western perspective. Sharia (Islamic Law) in the political infastructure, Supreme Leaders who think they are god, open public policy that is hostile to my country & way of life, Religious opression of people who's faiths do not include the god of Abraham, and the list goes on.
All I'm saying is fuck that. I think that they should be able to practice whatever faith they want, but there book (The Quaran), and sharia would not allow me the same respect.
It's very clear to me as an American who is our ally, and who is our enemy. I think everyone really knows how it is. Liberals just like living in a dream world.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 6 months, 12 days
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Quote:
GI_Luvmoney said:
Redstorm = Sayeed
And GI_Luvmoney = Great_Satan, Los_Pepes, etc.
Seriously, mods? Are you kidding me?
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Chespirito
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,223
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
The hundred million people in their immediate neighborhood, led by religious fanatics, have endeavored to destroy this tiny country for over 50 years. JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS.
It used to be for that reason. Now it's because because of Israel's oppressive, racist, elitist regime.
I guess thats why the Palestine freedom fighters try to maximize the Palestinian civilian casualties. Its because Israel is oppressive and has nothing to do with the fact that they want Israel and jews out of the region under any cost
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zorbman
Be Prepared
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,475
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11263331 - 10/16/09 10:46 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
And GI_Luvmoney = Great_Satan, Los_Pepes, etc.
Seriously, mods? Are you kidding me?
There are mods in this forum??
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Men occasionally stumble over the truth but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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What role does jewish owned media and companies play in america? i always hear that jews own all the movie, newspaper, radio companies, banks etc. is that true?
are there fake jewish christian priests?
more than average in the government, finance, media?
is there a deliberete israel slant in the US media, government, economics etc?
I honetly have heard many accusations and seen some facts to back that up.
whats the deal.
is israel using the US to defend israel? is the US volenteering?
It's very interesting how world war one changed the US's overall policy in regards to Israel, Britan, Germany and France.
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Truth - Love - Courage
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11263690 - 10/17/09 12:48 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's a big ballsy play for religous racial domiance that was pitted one side against the other to the death?
what nonsense!
The god muslims worship and die praying to is the same god christians, jews, and anyone else who believes in a higer power or the force of nature and the universe "worships."
they're destroying god's creation in the name of god.
some people truly fucked up, on both sides.
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Truth - Love - Courage
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11263711 - 10/17/09 12:53 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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by the way, when people are "destroying god's creation in the name of god" and similar backwards two faced things that's what religous people call "satan" and when satan reigns over earth is when the apocalypse is supposed to happen.
what the F is the solution? how do we stop all the madness?
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Truth - Love - Courage
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
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Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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I want to add one thing, and this is speculative theory. is it possible Israel had some part in 9/11? or was it absolutelky certainly muslims?
Israel's motive would be to churn up US military support in the middle east.
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Truth - Love - Courage
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11264291 - 10/17/09 06:16 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Me personally, I don't believe in mans' made up stupid ass religions.
A Priest = A man that was born into this world the same exact way I was, and has never talked to or seen god.
A Muslim Cleric = A man that was born into this world the same exact way I was, and has never talked to or seen god.
A Rabbi = A man that was born into this world the same exact way I was, and has never talked to or seen god.
All of these so called "Clergy" are merely regeritating what a MAN taught them from the time they were babies. They do not have divine insight.
Quote:
Shins said:
It's a big ballsy play for religous racial domiance that was pitted one side against the other to the death?
The god muslims worship and die praying to is the same god christians, jews, and anyone else who believes in a higer power or the force of nature and the universe "worships."
You might do better to remind Muslim People of this fact. Because the last time I checked it was perfectly legal in my westernized country for them to build Mosques and worship however they see fit.
Do a little research into Islamic Theocratic Governments, find out what kind of religious freedoms they have in those countries, and then try to make your poin seem valid to someone from the west.
If you did your research before you got into this debate then you would know that Islam does not advocate tolerance toward religions outside of those that stem from Abrahams God. I'm not talking about extremists, I'm talking about the scripture from the Quaran. Don't believe me? Well, then go find out for yourself, and then prove me wrong if I'm wrong.
Quote:
Shins said:
I want to add one thing, and this is speculative theory. is it possible Israel had some part in 9/11? or was it absolutelky certainly muslims?
Israel's motive would be to churn up US military support in the middle east.
Yea and they killed President Kennedy, and they abducted Hoover. Come on man, I could come up with hundreds of crack pot conspiracy theories, but if you don't have evidence to back it up, that's all it is a theory, and to be honest it just makes you sound like a moron.
I guess Al Qaedia is on Israeli pay roll according to your theory, because they played right into it by excepting responsibility.
NO, NO, I've got it!!! All of those Saudi Arabian Hijackers weren't really Arab Muslims at all they were Jews in Arab Muslim Costumes!!!
For those of us that don't go around believing in every stupid little conspiracy theory on the internet, there is a long well documented history of tensions between the Western Civilizations, and Islam.
I know this. When the twin towers fell the people of Palestine danced in celebration. I watched it with my own eyes.
Do I blame them for that? NO
Why don't I blame them for that? Because they are an enemy of the west along with Hezbollah. I've always known they were our enemy, and on September 11 they should me that they know I am there enemy.
I just don't think that they should have that sentiment, and then expect any sympathy from me in any way.
I take comfort in knowing that I live in wealth will my enemy lives in poverty. My children will be raised knowing racial, and religious equality, and there children will know the hatred that is taught in there culture. My country allows people to worship god however they see fit, and they live in oppressive regimes that restrict that and so many other aspects of life.
Did you see Jews dancing in the streets after 9/11?
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Isreal hunts down and kills the kind of people who danced in the streets when my fellow Americans, Innocent Civilians, were killed by a branch of the Islamic Militant Arm. I salute them for it. There not doing it for me, but I'll take the assistance none the less.
Edited by Simplicitry (11/07/09 08:36 AM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,450
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11265736 - 10/17/09 12:25 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Why does the USA support Israel's oppressive, racist, elitist regime?
Shared ideology. Both nations were founded on the same principles; white supremacy, a divine "right" of expansion due to perceived inherent superiority & a mythical god wanting them to have the land, & forced removal/ethnic cleansing/genocide of native peoples. Most Americans have no understanding of this subject & prefer to be ignorant & believe their self-righteous delusions about how they are "liberators" & stand for "freedom" & such.
Plus, by virtue of money, the Zionists have significant influence over the U.S. government, in addition to the shared racist worldview & a desire to make money at any costs to the environment or the humanity of poorer people with darker-skin.
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Every part of this country is sacred to my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove has been hallowed by some fond memory or some sad experience of my tribe.
Even the rocks... as they swelter in the sun along the silent seashore in solemn grandeur thrill with memories of past events... and the very dust under your feet responds more lovingly to our footsteps than to yours, because it is the ashes of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch, for the soil is rich with the life of our kindred.
And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among white men shall have become a myth, these shores shall swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe.
- Chief Seattle
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
Why does the USA support Israel's oppressive, racist, elitist regime?
Shared ideology. Both nations were founded on the same principles; white supremacy, a divine "right" of expansion due to perceived inherent superiority & a mythical god wanting them to have the land, & forced removal/ethnic cleansing/genocide of native peoples. Most Americans have no understanding of this subject & prefer to be ignorant & believe their self-righteous delusions about how they are "liberators" & stand for "freedom" & such.
Plus, by virtue of money, the Zionists have significant influence over the U.S. government, in addition to the shared racist worldview & a desire to make money at any costs to the environment or the humanity of poorer people with darker-skin.
What a wonderfully deranged bit of nonsense. There are approximately 14 million Jews in the entire world which has 6 billion people. In America there are approximately 7 million or about 2.5% of the population. If such a tiny number of people can dominate maybe they are the master race. Bow down and lick the boots of your betters.
Money? Saudi Arabia has more money than all the Jews in the world combined.
The shared racist worldview of............Obama? Rangel? Lee? Ellison? Could you be more insane?
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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what does everyone think about the speech Benjamin freedman made back in 1961?
Benjamin H Freedman The Balfour Declaration
^^ That's just a snippet
He basically says that the US was suckered into WW1 because the zionist jews wanted palestine, and the brits/french wanted to defeat germany so they made a deal. The jews would get the (mostly pro-german at the time) USA into the war if britain would promise them palestine, and they did with the balfour declaration even before the war was over.
He says the brits promising palestine to the jews before the war was over was completely rediculous and they had no authority.
Is that the root of all the problems?
as well as things like disputes over the suez canal and western european countries forcing (militarly) their influence in the middle east? (egypt, India etc.)
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Truth - Love - Courage
Edited by Shins (10/17/09 02:04 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11266241 - 10/17/09 02:16 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Most, if not all, of the middle eastern borders owes their existence to the partitioning of the ottoman empire following WW1.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
Why does the USA support Israel's oppressive, racist, elitist regime?
Shared ideology. Both nations were founded on the same principles; white supremacy, a divine "right" of expansion due to perceived inherent superiority & a mythical god wanting them to have the land, & forced removal/ethnic cleansing/genocide of native peoples. Most Americans have no understanding of this subject & prefer to be ignorant & believe their self-righteous delusions about how they are "liberators" & stand for "freedom" & such.
Plus, by virtue of money, the Zionists have significant influence over the U.S. government, in addition to the shared racist worldview & a desire to make money at any costs to the environment or the humanity of poorer people with darker-skin.
I am not "white", and neither are Jews. I am cacasian, but I'm definitly not arian.
You know what i see the connection your talking about now. People of European decent LOVE THE JEWS!!! I mean you'd have to look no farther then the Holocust, The spanish inquistions, The KKK, Neo Nazis. Yes I definitly see what your talking about now.
And if you really want to blame "white people" for the problems in Isreal then get your fucking facts straight. If any "white people" are to blame for Isreal it's England. They are the ones that drew those borders.
Racism? Please! every race on earth is racist to a certian extent. If you think that looking out for your own peoples intrests over the intrests of other peoples is racism then everyone is racist. I would like you to show me on place on earth where people that have different ethnicities, religions, and cultures live in a truely intergrated society.
About the only thing that I would agree with you on is the fact that spreading freedoms, or being liberators is bullshit. That's something that crazy left wingers beleive in. I would have never tried nation building democracies in the Middle East. Those people live like animals out there with some of the worst human rights records to speak of. I don't want to help them or liberate them. If anything I'd want to destroy them.
And it's not my fault if they get exploited by foriegn forces. Whether those forces be "white" or from a different background. If the people in the middle east are not smart, or strong enought to govern themselves while keeping foriegn influences at bay that's not my fault.
History has shown us that when two cultures collide the weaker is put into submission, and guess what it's not looking good for the Islamic Facists out there.
One more thing I find funny is that people on the other side of this arguement always try to point out how much influence Isreal has over American Politics like it's going to make me upset.
You ever talk to an Isreali. They are like Americans. One of there most famous Leaders was born, and raised in Wisconsin. Isreal is an extension of America, and not in a Religious way. They speak like us, and they are our allies. You all can bitch and moan about it all you want, but your just a bunch of winey little bitches on the losing end of an arguement.
And while I may never change your mind. It doesn't matter, because policy will stay the same, and me, and my Jewish allies will stay in the powerful position.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Oh yea, and I would also like to make one more interesting point. It seems like the left is always rooting for the losing side. Since the Palestinians are not on top right now everyone one on the left is crying about how badly they are being treated.
Did it ever occur to any of you left leaning morons that not all arguments are about right and wrong. Has it ever occur ed to you that what is right for the Palestinians is wrong for the Jews. And vice versa what is right for the Jews is wrong for the Palestinians. Both sides have committed atrocities, both sides have killed one another, both sides have deep seeded hatred for one another, and just because Israels the stronger of the two, and more capable of exerting their will doesn't make them more evil then the Palestinians.
Ask yourself this one Honest Question. If the power balance were the other way around do you really believe that the Palestinians would treat the Jews any better? The answer whether you want to admit it or not is NO. If the power balance were in the Palistinians favor there wouldn't even be an Israel. They would wipe them out.
In closing I want to say that I am not Jewish. I do not hate all people of Middle Eastern descent. I do however see right through the propaganda of my enemy, and the left. There is a clear history of what causes the problems that exist between the West, and Islam. And Islam is just as responsible for looking out for there own interests and fueling the fire as my side.
My sides not more evil. It's just more successful, and powerful.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
Edited by Simplicitry (10/17/09 04:09 PM)
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11266960 - 10/17/09 04:30 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
what does everyone think about the speech Benjamin freedman made back in 1961?
Benjamin H Freedman The Balfour Declaration
^^ That's just a snippet
He basically says that the US was suckered into WW1 because the zionist jews wanted palestine, and the brits/french wanted to defeat germany so they made a deal. The jews would get the (mostly pro-german at the time) USA into the war if britain would promise them palestine, and they did with the balfour declaration even before the war was over.
He says the brits promising palestine to the jews before the war was over was completely rediculous and they had no authority.
Is that the root of all the problems?
as well as things like disputes over the suez canal and western european countries forcing (militarly) their influence in the middle east? (egypt, India etc.)
I just watched your video, and I have to say that I am less then impressed. If you think that a speech that was given in the 1950s is news it's not. Everyone knows about Jewish influence in American Politics.
I also hope that you are not naive enough to think that this is the only reason that the U.S. Government got involved in a world war. After all England is our mother country, and has been one of our longest standing allies. I'm not saying that your video is complete bullshit. I do believe that Jews had some influence over the matter. I just hope that you realize that the reasons a country gets into a war like WW1 or WW2 are much more complex then that little speech you just should us, and that there were many Americans(not just Jewish Americans) who had an interest in the way those wars turned out.
I don't dispute what was said in the video I just think it's a bid naive to believe that's the only reason the U.S. went to war.
I would also have to argue that involvement in the two World Wars was beneficial to America, and ultimately made us the super power it is today. And while I don't believe that the Jews are responsible for getting us in those wars if they did then Americans owe them thanks.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,450
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So much blind ignorance, albeit I have to concede one important thing.
Quote:
And if you really want to blame "white people" for the problems in Israel then get your fucking facts straight. If any "white people" are to blame for Israel it's England. They are the ones that drew those borders.
As well as the U.S. through tens (probably 100+) of billions in military & economic subsidies over the past decades, with the current ('Communist' as uninformed people like zappaisgod would claim) administration continuing the status quo. BHO (superficially) says "Stop expanding the illegal settlements," & they continue to do so, saying "F*ck you but keep giving us money since we own your Senate."
Quote:
About the only thing that I would agree with you on is the fact that spreading freedoms, or being liberators is bullshit. That's something that crazy left wingers beleive in.
Actually, that claims comes mostly from the religious right, the base of the Republican party, in the U.S., whether now or during the U.S. military occupation of SE Asia, or the history of supporting dictatorships in Latin America for well over a century.
As far as treatment if power was the other way around, probably not now since Zionist apartheid, but Jews did better in Muslim parts of the world than in "Christian" Europe up until only several decades ago... particularly in Palestine, & this statement was from a group of Orthodox Jews who oppose Israel bc apparently the Torah says that Jews aren't supposed to have a 'state' until the Messiah comes.
I do have to agree on the exploitation by foreign powers (in collusion with a domestic elite) is due in a great degree to lack of organization of the masses due to a # of petty reasons... religious fundamentalism (fanned by imperialism, btw) too pervasive to accomplish any significant reforms needed to combat widespread poverty & inequality, continuing backwards ethnic feuds that have been going on for centuries or more, a lack of desire by one poor & exploited groups to work with other, often diverse groups of people all in the same boat to accomplish the greater good for the people, etc..
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Every part of this country is sacred to my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove has been hallowed by some fond memory or some sad experience of my tribe.
Even the rocks... as they swelter in the sun along the silent seashore in solemn grandeur thrill with memories of past events... and the very dust under your feet responds more lovingly to our footsteps than to yours, because it is the ashes of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch, for the soil is rich with the life of our kindred.
And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among white men shall have become a myth, these shores shall swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe.
- Chief Seattle
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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I thought this was relevent.
Main events in the history of Jerusalem - Timeline
There have been some exapmles of muslim rule over jerusalem where everyone had access to jerusalem.
Is this going to be an endless battle? is someone going to start dropping nukes again before it ends?
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Truth - Love - Courage
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
So much blind ignorance, albeit I have to concede one important thing.
If I'm blind and ignorant then prove it. Just because you say it so doesn't make it so.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
As well as the U.S. through tens (probably 100+) of billions in military & economic subsidies over the past decades, with the current ('Communist' as uninformed people like zappaisgod would claim) administration continuing the status quo. BHO (superficially) says "Stop expanding the illegal settlements," & they continue to do so, saying "F*ck you but keep giving us money since we own your Senate."
Well from looking through your post, and your signature you sound like a Communist which is perfectly legal where I come from and your right. I'm not saying you are for sure, but if your surprised that you may be mistaken for one I don't think you understatnd the impression you leave on people. Either that or your probably a hardcore left winger which isn't much different from a communist in my opinion. Also you can keep echoing the sentiment that they own our government, but it's no true. They have an influential role in our government along with other large influential groups in our nation.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Actually, that claims comes mostly from the religious right, the base of the Republican party, in the U.S., whether now or during the U.S. military occupation of SE Asia, or the history of supporting dictatorships in Latin America for well over a century.
I can't speak for ALL right wingers, and definitly not the christian right because I'm not one of them. But, I can speak for Libritarian Right Wingers when I tell you we do not believe in building democracies for our enemies, and to us that sounds like soft liberal nonsense. We wanted vengance.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
As far as treatment if power was the other way around, probably not now since Zionist apartheid, but Jews did better in Muslim parts of the world than in "Christian" Europe up until only several decades ago... particularly in Palestine, & this statement was from a group of Orthodox Jews who oppose Israel bc apparently the Torah says that Jews aren't supposed to have a 'state' until the Messiah comes.
This part really cracks me up, you admit that the Palistinians would not treat the Jews better if the tables were turned, the you go on to make it sound like that would be justified because of the way that they have been treated. That would be like me justifing the continued expansion of settlements in the west bank because of Jewish casualties. I'm not trying to do that, but it would be the same thing your doing in your statement. Also I don't care what those Orthodox Jews, or the Tora says because a don't ascribe to any of mans made up fairy tale religions.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
I do have to agree on the exploitation by foreign powers (in collusion with a domestic elite) is due in a great degree to lack of organization of the masses due to a # of petty reasons... religious fundamentalism (fanned by imperialism, btw) too pervasive to accomplish any significant reforms needed to combat widespread poverty & inequality, continuing backwards ethnic feuds that have been going on for centuries or more, a lack of desire by one poor & exploited groups to work with other, often diverse groups of people all in the same boat to accomplish the greater good for the people, etc..
You can make a million excuses for these people why they cannot bring about change in there culture, and you can blame the United States for everyones problems in the world if you want, but it doesn't fix anything. It achieves nothing. And the bottom line is for whatever reason these people cannot get there act together.
You must understand that I do not believe that the United States is not guilty of some atrosities. The same thing with Israel. On the contrary, I know for a fact that they are. I just don't care. I'm not trying to justify our actions.
Why don't I care? I've arranged a list below that proves this is not a one sided fight. The Muslims are not being killed unprevocked.
Quote:
1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.
1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.
1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.
1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.
1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.
1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.
1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.
1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.
1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.
2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)
2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb explodes outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.
2003 1
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.
2004
May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.
2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.
2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.
2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.
2008
May 26, Iraq: a suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six U.S. soldiers and wounds 18 others in Tarmiya.
June 24, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills at least 20 people, including three U.S. Marines, at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.
June 12, Afghanistan: four American servicemen are killed when a roadside bomb explodes near a U.S. military vehicle in Farah Province.
July 13, Afghanistan: nine U.S.soldiers and at least 15 NATO troops die when Taliban militants boldly attack an American base in Kunar Province, which borders Pakistan. It's the most deadly against U.S. troops in three years.
Aug. 18 and 19, Afghanistan: as many as 15 suicide bombers backed by about 30 militants attack a U.S. military base, Camp Salerno, in Bamiyan. Fighting between U.S. troops and members of the Taliban rages overnight. No U.S. troops are killed.
Sept. 16, Yemen: a car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.
Nov. 26, India: in a series of attacks on several of Mumbai's landmarks and commercial hubs that are popular with Americans and other foreign tourists, including at least two five-star hotels, a hospital, a train station, and a cinema. About 300 people are wounded and nearly 190 people die, including at least 5 Americans.
2009
Feb. 9, Iraq:A suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
April 10, Iraq:A suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen
These along with many other lower profile unnamed attacks prove that we are not simply killing people who are living a peaceful existence, and minding there own business. We are kiling our ENEMY.
And no matter what you believe it doesn't change the fact that I'm with the majority of Americans who see Israel as our ally against a common foe, and that support will continue.
Hell even a crazy left winger like Obama is required to follow this alliance by the American people
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
Edited by Simplicitry (10/18/09 11:18 AM)
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11270941 - 10/18/09 10:55 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
I thought this was relevant.
Main events in the history of Jerusalem - Timeline
Finally something we agree on. This is relevant.
Quote:
Shins said:
There have been some examples of Muslim rule over Jerusalem where everyone had access to jerusalem.
Oh shit here we go again. Islamic faith(The Quaran)is very clear on it's religious intolerance. It only protects people who believe in the God of Abraham(dhimmi, or people of the book). The only other religions that derive from Abraham are Christianity, and Judaism. Therefore if your anything else then your religious rights are not respected. And even the Jews, and Christians have to pay an extra tax for there protection, and are not afforded the same representation in government. That is hardly what I would consider religious tolerance. You can try to make the other side softer, and kinder then what they are to support what you think is right, but that is simply you skewing the truth to fit your agenda. Also look at the timeline again, and there were times when the Muslims burned down churches, and synagogues, and didn't allow Jews into Jeruselum. How does that play into your arguement?
Quote:
Shins said:
Is this going to be an endless battle?
It's unfortunate, but without the destruction of one side all indicators point to yes. The Jews leaving is as probable as all white Americans moving back to Europe, so that Native Americans could once again populate this continent. Which is to say it's impossible. The Palestinians putting down there guns, and excepting Israel as a state is equally as impossible(does anyone really believe that if settlement expansion in the west bank came to a stop the Palestinians would just except Israels current borders?)The Palestinians rising up and defeating the Israelis is laughable. It's just not going to happen. I suppose you know the solution though right?
Quote:
Shins said:
is someone going to start dropping nukes again before it ends?
The Muslims better hope not. We have a head start on them there.
I'm sorry, but your timeline didn't have that profound of an effect on me. As a matter a fact I think it shores up my argument. It shows that land has traded hands so many time that who has the right to lay claim to it other then those who are strong enough to hold it.
Edited by Simplicitry (10/18/09 12:22 PM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,450
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You're a libertarian? Really? Then what's this talk about "our enemies?" If you really are a libertarian, then you would know that practicing a libertarian foreign policy would result in as many (Muslim, in this case) people wanting to attack within America against American targets as want to attack within Brazil against Brazilian targets, to cite one of many potential examples of nations who don't excessively meddle abroad. This is pretty simple to understand. Perhaps the statist/imperialist in you doesn't want to understand this, though.
P.S. "Communism" (really anarchism/communalism if we want to try to get the "-isms" right) goes back in my people's culture long before Marx & Engels wrote about it.
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Every part of this country is sacred to my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove has been hallowed by some fond memory or some sad experience of my tribe.
Even the rocks... as they swelter in the sun along the silent seashore in solemn grandeur thrill with memories of past events... and the very dust under your feet responds more lovingly to our footsteps than to yours, because it is the ashes of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch, for the soil is rich with the life of our kindred.
And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among white men shall have become a myth, these shores shall swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe.
- Chief Seattle
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
You're a libertarian? Really? Then what's this talk about "our enemies?" If you really are a libertarian, then you would know that practicing a libertarian foreign policy would result in as many (Muslim, in this case) people wanting to attack within America against American targets as want to attack within Brazil against Brazilian targets, to cite one of many potential examples of nations who don't excessively meddle abroad. This is pretty simple to understand. Perhaps the statist/imperialist in you doesn't want to understand this, though.
P.S. "Communism" (really anarchism/communalism if we want to try to get the "-isms" right) goes back in my people's culture long before Marx & Engels wrote about it.
What do you mean, where do I come up with "our enemies"?
Did you not see that list of all the attacks on American interests I posted?
I personally feel an American would have to be retarded to look at that list of attacks and not realize that they are our enemies. Do you really mean to tell me that with a war on two fronts that you don't think that America, and Islam are enemies?
I think that the people that we are fighting feel the same way.
I would have thought that was clear to everyone.
Yes I am a Libertarian, and I don't think that the United States should meddle in foreign affairs that do not INVOLVE OUR INTERESTS. Like Darfur, let the sons of bitches kill each other. I don't want a dime of my taxes going over there. Or nation building in Iraq, I would have leveled there cities to the ground, and then let them pick up the pieces. I would not have spent a dime of American money to free them from their horrid dictator, get their elections going, or anything else for that matter. The same goes for Afghanistan, I would have left the Islamic foe in ruin, and then went about my business until the next time they needed to be reminded not to fuck with us.
Please understand that the Libertarian prospective of not meddling in things that are not our business has nothing to do with st ricking back at people who carry out hostilities against us. Only a great coward would let someone kill his brethren, and then do nothing about it.
You called me an Imperialist. I don't feel that I am. I don't feel the United States should acquire anymore land. I am a very vocal Capitalist though. You don't have to look very deep into the history of Communist regimes to see the fundamental flaws of their ideologies.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,450
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It's not surprising that you won't address the central topic. Had the US minded it's own business (you know, libertarianism) post-WWII (let's just start there for simplicity's sake), especially in predominantly Muslim parts of the world, 9-11 would not have happened nor would Muslims want to attack America anymore than Brazil. Any Muslim "terrorists" wanting to attack America is a result of meddling U.S. foreign policy. Unless you can acknowledge this simple fact, nothing else is worth mentioning or discussing. The solution is not more of what caused the problem; it's less.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,450
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Quote:
Or nation building in Iraq, I would have leveled there cities to the ground, and then let them pick up the pieces. I would not have spent a dime of American money to free them from their horrid dictator, get their elections going, or anything else for that matter.
Well, at least you don't even pretend to be compassionate in wanting to wage military aggression against a people who never attacked the American mainland. Freeing them from a dictator? Spare the self-righteousness... most people around here aren't dumb enough to buy that nationalist propaganda. The U.S. & British, in both Iran & Iraq, worked to overthrow popular governments that threatened Western oil interests in the 50s/early 60s.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
It's not surprising that you won't address the central topic. Had the US minded it's own business (you know, libertarianism) post-WWII (let's just start there for simplicity's sake)
That would be a convienient place for you to start. Even though the conflict started thousands of years ago. That doesn't play into your arguement so you wouldn't want to go there
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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I simply don't agree with you EtheogenicPeace. I have no fear of debating as long as you want. I have strong convictions. I do not feel that I completely understand your stance aside from that fact that you come across as anti-American, and anti-Israel. You also believe that the U.S. is involved in things that aren't there business. I would argue that we didn't have two wars going on until after 9/11, so in my mind our action are justified as retaliation, and that makes it our business.
I'm more then willing to hear an alternative opinion. I'm not saying that I will agree with it, but I'm willing to hear you out.
What country are you from?
What is your political stance in your country?
Do you honestly have an unbiased opinion, or do you have interests that dictate your opinion?
Do you have any kind of a feasible solution? or are you just one of those people that only has criticisms, but no useful solutions?
I don't think I can make how I feel anymore clear then I already have, but I'm more then willing to answer any questions about my Ideologies.
What are yours?
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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He is anti-non-loser as a knee jerk proposition. You may note that despite is anti-semitic diatribe he doesn't seem to be able to explain just how 14 million people can take over the world. Mwahahahahaha. BILDERBERGER!!!!!!!!!!FTW!
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,450
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Quote:
Even though the conflict started thousands of years ago.
What conflict started thousands of years ago? If it is Islam & Judaism, then that's incorrect because modern Zionism is the root of Arab/Israeli conflict as Jews, Christians, & Muslims were living there relatively peaceful only a couple of centuries ago.
As for not agreeing with me... I don't care. You still haven't addressed, & probably won't, the fundamental issue of why America is seen unfavorably by many in the Muslim world, but Brazil (to use one of many examples) isn't. Usually the American nationalist responds by saying 'because we stand for freedom & they hate freedom!" However, the history of U.S. foreign policy is not one of promoting the freedom & independence of the majority in Muslim countries, but rather supporting dictatorships (as well as overthrowing democracies in a few cases) that are in America's economic interests while hypocritically condemning other dictatorships not subservient to U.S. interests... & this is how most people of Arab & Muslim decent see it (& I would be willing to bet that I've interacted & talked with more of them on the subject than you have.)
A perfect example of this is the U.S. condemning the sham elections in Iran because it doesn't like their government while not condemning the sham elections in Afghanistan that kept Hamid Karzai's corrupt government of warlords in power. Most Muslims in the world can see right through this hypocrisy. Lastly, don't paint all Muslim people as fundamentalists (like the Taliban who really do hate freedom) as if a) they are the majority & b) only fundamentalists have negative views of America. Moderate Muslims (a majority) don't oppose America for its domestic freedoms but rather oppose it for having long been on the side of suppressing their attempts to achieve their own freedom & greater economic equality in their societies by supporting authoritarian governments that hoard extreme wealth while large segments live in poverty without economic security & educational opportunities.
Lastly, Western (primarily American) support for dictatorships favored for economic reasons is a catalyst for poor, disenfranchised youth to join fundamentalists movements as they are the only ones fighting to overthrow the corrupt governments (as the U.S. has worked with these same authoritarian governments to shut down, apprehend, torture, & execute left-wing opposition in several places in the Muslim world, leaving only the fundamentalists). The more support for these governments by the west, the greater the appeal of these reactionary movements by elements of the poor, thus serving as a convenient propaganda cover by the U.S. to do more (in terms of military support) of why it & the government it supports are opposed in the first place.
I maybe wasted my time on all of the above. If you are not willing to talk to & listen to the views of the majority of people of Arab descent/Muslim faith, then you may never come around to this if you are not willing. I've come across a number of right-wing people who are very uninformed on the subject of how U.S. policy is seen by people around the world & have no interest in hearing from these people themselves on the subject & becoming better informed to understand that the U.S. stands only for its own economic interests, & not the noble ideals it claims & preaches to the world (but has no problem violating for its own interests), & this is the reason for most opposition to its influence, not "hating freedom" when the U.S. has (& still is) in many places around the world isn't on the side of the will of the majority.
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Every part of this country is sacred to my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove has been hallowed by some fond memory or some sad experience of my tribe.
Even the rocks... as they swelter in the sun along the silent seashore in solemn grandeur thrill with memories of past events... and the very dust under your feet responds more lovingly to our footsteps than to yours, because it is the ashes of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch, for the soil is rich with the life of our kindred.
And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among white men shall have become a myth, these shores shall swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe.
- Chief Seattle
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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First of all i appreciate all of the responses and viewpoints, thanks.
a few points;
I thought part of the idea of America was to get and stay away from this type of stuff. George Washington frequently talked about how it was in America's best interest to not meddle in the affairs of other countries.
The USA has been messing around in the middle east for over a hundred years, and the Brits for a lot longer. It's hard to deny that "the terrorists" are doing what they are at least in part because of this.
I propose that the USA made a series of mistakes over the past 100+ years in the middle east, and this is the consequence.
I would also propose that Jewish influence in America has at least in part been responsible for intentional pro-Jewish swaying of public opinion, molding "education" of world history, Broken economics, backing governmental forces of middle east events, and media bias. I propose that the Jews are at least partly to blame for the "mistakes."
The argument "Israel is the strongest so they deserve it" doesn't sit well with me. this implies that even if the "strongest" is willing to do low-down, dirty, subversive, illegal, backstabbing, murderous, fraudulent things etc. to achieve the goal, that this justifies the ends and makes them "strongest."
That makes "the strongest" criminals. it's like how some murderers or rapists have a power complex where they will stop at noting to dominate thier victims to get a great sense of strength and power.
It's honestly just a really sad state of affairs. You cannot move forwards until you acknowledge the mistakes of the past. it feels like humanity is being dragged backwards to hell.
Where the F did America go?
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Truth - Love - Courage
Edited by Shins (10/19/09 01:00 AM)
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Chespirito
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,223
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11275528 - 10/19/09 01:33 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
Where the F did America go?
Probably back in your imagination
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11275923 - 10/19/09 06:38 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ive got the solution! Jews could accept Jesus and Muhammad, Christians could accept Mohammad and actually follow the teachings of jesus, muslums could tone down Sharia and atheists could stop taking it all so literally and read between the lines.
seriously that would solve so many problems and sub-problems.
for the record i consider myself an Agnostic Abrahmic sympathizer who believes in the higher power of the universe and nature.
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Truth - Love - Courage
Edited by Shins (10/19/09 07:01 AM)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,193
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 11 minutes, 49 seconds
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11275965 - 10/19/09 06:52 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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> i consider myself an Agnostic ... who believes in [a] higher power
Not really agnostic, then, are you?
> Ive got the solution!
So do I. Bulldoze and salt the entire area so that it is worthless thus the people fighting over it will have nothing worth fighting over.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Seuss]
#11276005 - 10/19/09 07:10 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
Not really agnostic, then, are you?
Agnosticism doesn't rule out theism.
Quote:
Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, spiritual beings, or even ultimate reality — are unknown or, in some forms of agnosticism, unknowable.[1]It is not a religious declaration in itself, and an agnostic may also be a theist or an atheist.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
Quote:
Agnostic theism, also known as Spiritual Agnosticism is the philosophical view that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. Per theism, an agnostic theist believes that the proposition at least one deity exists is true, but, per agnosticism, believes that the existence of gods are unknown or inherently unknowable. The agnostic theist may also or alternatively be agnostic regarding the properties of the god(s) they believe in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism
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Truth - Love - Courage
Edited by Shins (10/19/09 07:56 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11276558 - 10/19/09 10:03 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
First of all i appreciate all of the responses and viewpoints, thanks.
a few points;
I thought part of the idea of America was to get and stay away from this type of stuff. George Washington frequently talked about how it was in America's best interest to not meddle in the affairs of other countries.
Barbary pirates. Also airplanes. What is meddling?Quote:
The USA has been messing around in the middle east for over a hundred years, and the Brits for a lot longer. It's hard to deny that "the terrorists" are doing what they are at least in part because of this.
Not really and not much at all until the Soviets decided to get involvedQuote:
.
I propose that the USA made a series of mistakes over the past 100+ years in the middle east, and this is the consequence.
Yes, they didn't destroy Iran in 1979. That's a big one right there.Quote:
I would also propose that Jewish influence in America has at least in part been responsible for intentional pro-Jewish swaying of public opinion, molding "education" of world history, Broken economics, backing governmental forces of middle east events, and media bias. I propose that the Jews are at least partly to blame for the "mistakes."
Jews make up 2.5% of the population. They aren't that influential. It is an anti-semitic canard.Quote:
The argument "Israel is the strongest so they deserve it" doesn't sit well with me. this implies that even if the "strongest" is willing to do low-down, dirty, subversive, illegal, backstabbing, murderous, fraudulent things etc. to achieve the goal, that this justifies the ends and makes them "strongest."
Their goal is and always has been to hold onto their tiny slice of barren shithole desert. Their neighbors have embarked on a several decade long program to eliminate and exterminate them. Some of their neighbor's governments have stopped. Some have not. Many people in all of their neighbors also individually oppose the Jew's right to live free in his tiny slice of crap and have contributed to efforts to achieve that end.Quote:
That makes "the strongest" criminals. it's like how some murderers or rapists have a power complex where they will stop at noting to dominate thier victims to get a great sense of strength and power.
Prevailing in a war does not make you a criminal. I suspect they have no desire whatsoever to govern the Palestinian lunatics. Just as their neighbors have no desire to govern the Palestinian lunatics. If they weren't lunatics the 1968 borders would never have changed. Jerusalem would be split, the West Bank would be part of Jordan, Golan Heights Syria and Gaza Egypt. But that wasn't good enough for the lunatics. Not then, not now. And there are hundreds of millions of them.Quote:
It's honestly just a really sad state of affairs. You cannot move forwards until you acknowledge the mistakes of the past. it feels like humanity is being dragged backwards to hell.
Where the F did America go?
You are very young. The middle east has been a festering shithole for millennia. Just when do you suppose the apex of middle eastern civilization was?
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11278748 - 10/19/09 04:14 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Not really and not much at all until the Soviets decided to get involved
WW1 was a big early example. If the united states didn't directly "meddle" it did so by proxy by freeing up British and Russian troops to do the job.
i should have said "for about 100 years"
Quote:
Jews make up 2.5% of the population. They aren't that influential. It is an anti-semitic canard.
Jews make up a small percentage of overall population yes, but when it comes to key positions in the areas i described, they hold a disproportionately high percentage.
I'd like to clarify something. I'm not anti-semite, I'm pro-american, and if zionist interests conflict with america's principals, then that's simply a coincidence.
Quote:
Their goal is and always has been to hold onto their tiny slice of barren shithole desert.
Why do you keep downplaying the significance of the "holy" land and the "cradle of civilization?" if it's such a shithole why did the jews want is so bad?
Quote:
You are very young. The middle east has been a festering shithole for millennia. Just when do you suppose the apex of middle eastern civilization was?
Hmm... the Apex is hard to say. I would say perhaps the Hyksos period or the byzantine / early Muslim / crusader periods.
Or today, since its the apex of time in general.
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Truth - Love - Courage
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Satival
Stranger
Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 241
Last seen: 2 months, 26 days
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Just an observation...
In their latest attack on Gaza city 13 Jews were killed, most of them soldiers vs over 13,000 Palestinians, with a larger portion of civilian casualties. The Israeli military insists that they were justified and that no war crimes took place.
So i suppose that 1 Jew is worth 1000 Palestinians then?
Don't get me wrong, I believe that Islam DOES represent a real threat towards progressive and not-insane society, but the same goes for fundamentalist Christians too. Christians and Muslims share very similar belief systems, they don't even realize it, they view each other as a different group and, somewhat naturally, view the other as the inferior.
If Palestinians were white christians this shit would NEVER happen. Western media would condemn this shit outright. American people only tolerate this now because they are either stupid or actually don't care.
I suspect the latter.
Personally I think Israel switches to overkill-occupy-mode way too easily. The US enables them.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,804
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Satival]
#11294771 - 10/21/09 06:44 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
If Palestinians were white christians this shit would NEVER happen.
Yes it would. It happened just like that in the Balkans only a decade ago. There we took the side of the Muslims and bombed the white Christians (as you call them). You are projecting racism where there is none.
Edited by DieCommie (10/21/09 06:54 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Satival]
#11294860 - 10/21/09 06:52 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've said it before and I will repeat it for those who were out of the room. All the Israelis ever wanted was a tiny little slice (slightly smaller than New Jersey) of resource-free desert shithole. They didn't want the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula or the Golan Heights. BUt their neighbors aggressive activities forced them to defend themselves, which they did at great cost but with great success. Now they have given back a great deal of it but have also found in some cases that the nations they captured the territories from won't take the lunatics and assholes that stayed there back. You couldn't pay Egypt enough ransom to take back the Gaza Strip.
Every single anti-Israel bullshit stems from the same well of identifying with the losers that permeates the ever descending state we find ourselves in. Success sucks and failure is a noble pursuit. The Palestinians are genocidal lunatics who would eradicate all Jews if they could. In the face of that what the fuck do you think the Israelis should do? Move to Jonestown?
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 152,645
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11295767 - 10/21/09 08:37 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
All the Israelis ever wanted was a tiny little slice (slightly smaller than New Jersey) of resource-free desert shithole. They didn't want the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula or the Golan Heights.
and they used terrorism to get it
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer
Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Satival]
#11295936 - 10/21/09 08:57 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Satival said:
Just an observation...
In their latest attack on Gaza city 13 Jews were killed, most of them soldiers vs over 13,000 Palestinians, with a larger portion of civilian casualties. The Israeli military insists that they were justified and that no war crimes took place.
So i suppose that 1 Jew is worth 1000 Palestinians then?
Don't get me wrong, I believe that Islam DOES represent a real threat towards progressive and not-insane society, but the same goes for fundamentalist Christians too. Christians and Muslims share very similar belief systems, they don't even realize it, they view each other as a different group and, somewhat naturally, view the other as the inferior.
If Palestinians were white christians this shit would NEVER happen. Western media would condemn this shit outright. American people only tolerate this now because they are either stupid or actually don't care.
I suspect the latter.
Personally I think Israel switches to overkill-occupy-mode way too easily. The US enables them.
Spot on, nothing to add.
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Capliberty:
"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: DieCommie]
#11297251 - 10/22/09 12:50 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes extremist Muslims are no good for America, but what about extremist jews? why is it that extremist jews are never condemned and somehow good for America? They are just as bad if not worse! At least Muslims accept the teachings of Jesus, i mean, jews don't believe in hell.
I hate this criminally insane racist shit.
God's chosen? what the fuck! The narcissism is hard to take.
Quote:
"Hotchkiss[10] identified what he called the seven deadly sins of narcissism:
1. Shamelessness - Shame is the feeling that lurks beneath all unhealthy narcissism, and the inability to process shame in healthy ways.
2. Magical thinking - Narcissists see themselves as perfect using distortion and illusion known as magical thinking. They also use projection to shame dump onto others.
3. Arrogance - If a narcissist is feeling deflated, he can reinflate himself by diminishing, debasing or degrading somebody else.
4. Envy - If the narcissist's need to secure a sense of superiority meets an obstacle because of somebody else, he neutralises it using contempt to minimise the other person's ability
5. Entitlement - Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves uniquely special. Any failure to comply will be considered an attack on their superiority and the perpetrator is considered to ben "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.
6. Exploitation - can take many forms but always involves the using of others without regards for their feelings or interests. Often the other is in a subservient position where resistance would be difficult or even impossible. Sometimes the subservience is not so much real as assumed.
7. Bad Boundaries - narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves. Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all. Those who provide narcissistic supply to the narcissist will be treated as if they are part of the narcissist and be expected to live up to those expectations. In the mind of a narcissist, there is no boundary between self and other.
side note; fun drug fact: in order for the jewish messiah to be "appointed" he requires being anointed with "holy oil" which contains among other things "about 3kg" of Cannabis extract. Marijuana is illegal in Israel. I guess anyone trying to anoint the messiah should get busted.
About christian extremists; so many Christians these days follow more of a distorted cult or social group than the teachings of jesus. They call themselves Christians, then they go and do stuff that would make jesus cry.
If Palestinians where white, i don't think it would make a difference. if they were jews then well that would be much different.
Edited by Shins (10/22/09 02:04 AM)
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11297618 - 10/22/09 03:05 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Every single anti-Israel bullshit stems from the same well of identifying with the losers that permeates the ever descending state we find ourselves in. Success sucks and failure is a noble pursuit. The Palestinians are genocidal lunatics who would eradicate all Jews if they could. In the face of that what the fuck do you think the Israelis should do? Move to Jonestown?
success sucks if it was attained with unethical means.
Quote:
“What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul.” -Jesus
i guess all the people who get raped, murdered, and robbed are just "losers" right?
it's about right and wrong, not win or loss.
if palestinians want to eradicate jews its because they feel they have been wronged by them.
I think most of them would settle with, and want the eradication of Isreal as a nation state, not so much the people therein.
i always hear people take "they want to wipe israel out!" out of context as if it refers to wiping out all jews in Israel, and not the state of israel; lines on a map with a Zionist government.
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Truth - Love - Courage
Edited by Shins (10/22/09 03:15 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11299142 - 10/22/09 11:14 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
All the Israelis ever wanted was a tiny little slice (slightly smaller than New Jersey) of resource-free desert shithole. They didn't want the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula or the Golan Heights.
and they used terrorism to get it
They did? I thought it was part of the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
Of particular interest is this:
Quote:
Arab attacks on isolated Jewish settlements and British failure to protect the Jews, led to the creation of Haganah (Defense) a mainly socialist Jewish militia dedicated to defending Jewish settlements. Following the 1929 Arab riots, the Revisionist Zionist leader, Jabotinsky, created a right-wing militia called the Irgun Tzvai Leumi (National Military Organization, known in locally by its acronym "Etzel"), this smaller group temporarily merged with Haganah in the thirties.
And this
Quote:
Fighting between the Arab and Jewish communities of Palestine began in November 1947, immediately after the UN decision to create a Jewish state. The Arab States declared they would greet any attempt to form a Jewish state with war.[38] Dr Izzat Tannous, the Palestinian Arab representative to the UN declared that
Quote:
We are now at war, a war in which no quarter will be asked and none will be given. It will be a battle of life and death and woe to the vanquished.[39]
They should all have just laid down and been slaughtered, I suppose. The entirety of the Middle east was partitioned after WW1. The Jews got a tiny slice. Which they defended on terms established by the Arabs. They won. Boo fucking hoo for the Arabs.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11299273 - 10/22/09 11:36 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
Yes extremist Muslims are no good for America, but what about extremist jews? why is it that extremist jews are never condemned and somehow good for America? They are just as bad if not worse! At least Muslims accept the teachings of Jesus, i mean, jews don't believe in hell.
I hate this criminally insane racist shit.
Do I read you right that Jews suck because they don't believe in Jesus and Hell? Criminally insane racist shit indeed. I don't know of any extremist Jewish attacks on America and if there were any I am quite sure they would be prosecuted. Yes, even by Israelis. In the Arab countries they are made heroes.Quote:
God's chosen? what the fuck! The narcissism is hard to take.
Name one religion that does not contend that their way is THE WAY. What of the Catholic belief that without confession you will not ascend to heaven?Quote:
Quote:
"Hotchkiss[10] identified what he called the seven deadly sins of narcissism:
1. Shamelessness - Shame is the feeling that lurks beneath all unhealthy narcissism, and the inability to process shame in healthy ways.
2. Magical thinking - Narcissists see themselves as perfect using distortion and illusion known as magical thinking. They also use projection to shame dump onto others.
3. Arrogance - If a narcissist is feeling deflated, he can reinflate himself by diminishing, debasing or degrading somebody else.
4. Envy - If the narcissist's need to secure a sense of superiority meets an obstacle because of somebody else, he neutralises it using contempt to minimise the other person's ability
5. Entitlement - Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves uniquely special. Any failure to comply will be considered an attack on their superiority and the perpetrator is considered to ben "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.
6. Exploitation - can take many forms but always involves the using of others without regards for their feelings or interests. Often the other is in a subservient position where resistance would be difficult or even impossible. Sometimes the subservience is not so much real as assumed.
7. Bad Boundaries - narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves. Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all. Those who provide narcissistic supply to the narcissist will be treated as if they are part of the narcissist and be expected to live up to those expectations. In the mind of a narcissist, there is no boundary between self and other.
Spare me your amateur psychology.Quote:
side note; fun drug fact: in order for the jewish messiah to be "appointed" he requires being anointed with "holy oil" which contains among other things "about 3kg" of Cannabis extract. Marijuana is illegal in Israel. I guess anyone trying to anoint the messiah should get busted.
Whatever. Did you know that the old testament is part of Christian and Muslim religions?Quote:
About christian extremists; so many Christians these days follow more of a distorted cult or social group than the teachings of jesus. They call themselves Christians, then they go and do stuff that would make jesus cry.
So sayeth the priest. When Christian extremists commit crimes they are prosecuted. Muslims? Heroes.Quote:
If Palestinians where white, i don't think it would make a difference. if they were jews then well that would be much different.
Well yes, it would be different since they would then not likely be embarked on a program to exterminate Jews. Fuck me.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11299369 - 10/22/09 11:57 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Every single anti-Israel bullshit stems from the same well of identifying with the losers that permeates the ever descending state we find ourselves in. Success sucks and failure is a noble pursuit. The Palestinians are genocidal lunatics who would eradicate all Jews if they could. In the face of that what the fuck do you think the Israelis should do? Move to Jonestown?
success sucks if it was attained with unethical means.
There is nothing unethical about fighting back against a genocidal army of millions intent on eradicating you. In fact given the biblical stricture against suicide it is imperative, no?Quote:
Quote:
�What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul.� -Jesus
Soul? There is no such thing.Quote:
i guess all the people who get raped, murdered, and robbed are just "losers" right?
No, losers are 6th century troglodytes who starve their own people and hold them in a retarded state even though they have been given a stunningly rich gift of natural resources. Quote:
it's about right and wrong, not win or loss.
Right and wrong? Who the fuck are you? Jesus? What gives the genocidal lunatics the "right" claim over the Jews? Quote:
if palestinians want to eradicate jews its because they feel they have been wronged by them.
Not entirely and so what. Who has been more wronged?Quote:
I think most of them would settle with, and want the eradication of Isreal as a nation state, not so much the people therein.
And so you would turn the Israelis into refugees instead. Nice, very nice, Adolph. The fucking Arabs have almost all the land, ALL of the oil and one tiny sliver of shit was given to and defended by the Jews. And you and the murdering morons think that is too much. There is no accident that even the fucking Arabs and Egyptians will have nothing to do with these Palestinian scum. Egypt and Jordan wouldn't take their land back if you paid them.Quote:
i always hear people take "they want to wipe israel out!" out of context as if it refers to wiping out all jews in Israel, and not the state of israel; lines on a map with a Zionist government.
Every single nation in the mid east is just lines on a map. Lines on a map with Arabist and/or Islamist governments. What makes them any more legitimate?
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11299656 - 10/22/09 12:34 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
Yes extremist Muslims are no good for America, but what about extremist jews? why is it that extremist jews are never condemned and somehow good for America? They are just as bad if not worse! At least Muslims accept the teachings of Jesus, i mean, jews don't believe in hell.
No one cares that they believe if they believe in Jesus or not. We believe in religious freedom in America.
The reason why jews are seen as good for the U.S., and muslims are not is very simple.
Jewish attacks against the U.S.: None
Muslim attacks against the U.S.:
Quote:
1982?1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.
1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.
1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.
1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.
1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.
1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.
1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.
1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.
1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.
2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)
2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb explodes outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.
2003 1
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.
2004
May 29?31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11?19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.
2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.
2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.
2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.
2008
May 26, Iraq: a suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six U.S. soldiers and wounds 18 others in Tarmiya.
June 24, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills at least 20 people, including three U.S. Marines, at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.
June 12, Afghanistan: four American servicemen are killed when a roadside bomb explodes near a U.S. military vehicle in Farah Province.
July 13, Afghanistan: nine U.S.soldiers and at least 15 NATO troops die when Taliban militants boldly attack an American base in Kunar Province, which borders Pakistan. It's the most deadly against U.S. troops in three years.
Aug. 18 and 19, Afghanistan: as many as 15 suicide bombers backed by about 30 militants attack a U.S. military base, Camp Salerno, in Bamiyan. Fighting between U.S. troops and members of the Taliban rages overnight. No U.S. troops are killed.
Sept. 16, Yemen: a car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.
Nov. 26, India: in a series of attacks on several of Mumbai's landmarks and commercial hubs that are popular with Americans and other foreign tourists, including at least two five-star hotels, a hospital, a train station, and a cinema. About 300 people are wounded and nearly 190 people die, including at least 5 Americans.
2009
Feb. 9, Iraq:A suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
April 10, Iraq:A suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen
All I have to say is that pretty much says it all
America+Isreal=Allies
America+Islam=Enemy, and that whole history of violence above
Edited by Simplicitry (10/22/09 06:28 PM)
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Chespirito
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,223
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11299906 - 10/22/09 01:08 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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For once I generally agree with what you have to say. However I think you are ignoring one major facet of this conflict, which is that while Israel technically occupies a sliver of land, that sliver of land happens to occupy several important holy sites in all the major Abrahamic religions.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
What conflict started thousands of years ago? If it is Islam & Judaism, then that's incorrect because modern Zionism is the root of Arab/Israeli conflict as Jews, Christians, & Muslims were living there relatively peaceful only a couple of centuries ago.
It is not my job to teach you history. If you do not know of the history of tension, and violence between Islam, and the west that is your own problem, and you should rectify it. I will give you one hint. I didn't start in WW2. And you trying to make it seem like everyone lived in peace and harmony during Muslim control only shows your great ignorance, and bias to one side. Your trying to give Islam a free pass, and everyone with a brain knows that's bullshit.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
As for not agreeing with me... I don't care. You still haven't addressed, & probably won't, the fundamental issue of why America is seen unfavorably by many in the Muslim world, but Brazil (to use one of many examples) isn't. Usually the American nationalist responds by saying 'because we stand for freedom & they hate freedom!" However, the history of U.S. foreign policy is not one of promoting the freedom & independence of the majority in Muslim countries, but rather supporting dictatorships (as well as overthrowing democracies in a few cases) that are in America's economic interests while hypocritically condemning other dictatorships not subservient to U.S. interests... & this is how most people of Arab & Muslim decent see it (& I would be willing to bet that I've interacted & talked with more of them on the subject than you have.)
I did adress it, you just didn't like my response. Since you chose to ignore my response I will reiterate it so that everyone knows I'm not dodging any questions. I don't care that the U.S. has looked out for it's own interests. The Muslims are looking out for theirs. Why shouldn't we. I'm not trying to justify anything we've done. One, because many of them happened before I was born, and there is nothing I can do about it. And two, we are not the only ones that have dirt, and blood on our hands. Again you look down your nose at what my country has done, and you want to the Islamic people a free pass. Oh, and I never said I had more interactions with muslims. I have done my reasearch, and you can try to make them sound as moderate, or tolerant as you want, but the reality on the ground in most muslim countries is quite different. No Churches, No Synagoges, only mosques, and there history of violence toward gays, and supressing women speaks for itself.
We difinitly embrace diversity more here in the west, and there is proof.
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EntheogenicPeace said:
A perfect example of this is the U.S. condemning the sham elections in Iran because it doesn't like their government while not condemning the sham elections in Afghanistan that kept Hamid Karzai's corrupt government of warlords in power. Most Muslims in the world can see right through this hypocrisy. Lastly, don't paint all Muslim people as fundamentalists (like the Taliban who really do hate freedom) as if a) they are the majority & b) only fundamentalists have negative views of America. Moderate Muslims (a majority) don't oppose America for its domestic freedoms but rather oppose it for having long been on the side of suppressing their attempts to achieve their own freedom & greater economic equality in their societies by supporting authoritarian governments that hoard extreme wealth while large segments live in poverty without economic security & educational opportunities.
Like I said before, and I'll say it again, you can make them sound like they are tolerant, but the FACTS support something different.
Look at the history of their treatment of gays, women, and people outside the faiths of Abraham. You know what that history says: YOU LIE. THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS. Their histrory paints quite a different picture of their tolerance!
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Lastly, Western (primarily American) support for dictatorships favored for economic reasons is a catalyst for poor, disenfranchised youth to join fundamentalists movements as they are the only ones fighting to overthrow the corrupt governments (as the U.S. has worked with these same authoritarian governments to shut down, apprehend, torture, & execute left-wing opposition in several places in the Muslim world, leaving only the fundamentalists). The more support for these governments by the west, the greater the appeal of these reactionary movements by elements of the poor, thus serving as a convenient propaganda cover by the U.S. to do more (in terms of military support) of why it & the government it supports are opposed in the first place.
Again you they can blame my country for their problems, and their dictators, or they could fight for change. It's not my fault they can't govern themselves
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
I maybe wasted my time on all of the above. If you are not willing to talk to & listen to the views of the majority of people of Arab descent/Muslim faith, then you may never come around to this if you are not willing. I've come across a number of right-wing people who are very uninformed on the subject of how U.S. policy is seen by people around the world & have no interest in hearing from these people themselves on the subject & becoming better informed to understand that the U.S. stands only for its own economic interests, & not the noble ideals it claims & preaches to the world (but has no problem violating for its own interests), & this is the reason for most opposition to its influence, not "hating freedom" when the U.S. has (& still is) in many places around the world isn't on the side of the will of the majority.
I am a very informed right winger. I know about European, and American colonialism. I know what role that plays in my enemies heart. I don't care what happened to there grandparents. I didn't do it to them. I'm not going to give in to a violent enemy because they have a list of atrosities my grandfathers generation commited. Cause guess what I have a list that their grandparents committed too. Also I want to understand their side as much as they want to understand mine. I also never said anything about spreading freedom, because I don't care if they have freedom, because it's not my business to get involved in their affairs. Unless of coarse they make it my business by killing my people.
I was born in 1982, since then:
1982?1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.
1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.
1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.
1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.
1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.
1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.
1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.
1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.
1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.
2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)
2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb explodes outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.
2003 1
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.
2004
May 29?31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11?19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.
2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.
2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.
2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.
2008
May 26, Iraq: a suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six U.S. soldiers and wounds 18 others in Tarmiya.
June 24, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills at least 20 people, including three U.S. Marines, at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.
June 12, Afghanistan: four American servicemen are killed when a roadside bomb explodes near a U.S. military vehicle in Farah Province.
July 13, Afghanistan: nine U.S.soldiers and at least 15 NATO troops die when Taliban militants boldly attack an American base in Kunar Province, which borders Pakistan. It's the most deadly against U.S. troops in three years.
Aug. 18 and 19, Afghanistan: as many as 15 suicide bombers backed by about 30 militants attack a U.S. military base, Camp Salerno, in Bamiyan. Fighting between U.S. troops and members of the Taliban rages overnight. No U.S. troops are killed.
Sept. 16, Yemen: a car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.
Nov. 26, India: in a series of attacks on several of Mumbai's landmarks and commercial hubs that are popular with Americans and other foreign tourists, including at least two five-star hotels, a hospital, a train station, and a cinema. About 300 people are wounded and nearly 190 people die, including at least 5 Americans.
2009
Feb. 9, Iraq:A suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
April 10, Iraq:A suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen
The list speaks for itself. I didn't decide these people were my enemy because of racism, or religion. I did it because it would be clear to anyone with intelligence, and eyes to see the history that I didn't make the choice. It was made for me. I just have to deal with what we have, and that is a violent, hatful group of people who don't care about me, and my people they care about themselves. I honestly don't blame them for it. Just don't expect me to have a big bleeding heart for them.
Edited by Simplicitry (10/22/09 06:24 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Chespirito]
#11300510 - 10/22/09 02:31 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chespirito said:
For once I generally agree with what you have to say. However I think you are ignoring one major facet of this conflict, which is that while Israel technically occupies a sliver of land, that sliver of land happens to occupy several important holy sites in all the major Abrahamic religions.
I know and it is certainly a major contributor to the problem. But prior to the '67 war Jerusalem was shared reasonably well. Not perfectly but reasonably.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 152,645
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11301186 - 10/22/09 04:17 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
All the Israelis ever wanted was a tiny little slice (slightly smaller than New Jersey) of resource-free desert shithole. They didn't want the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula or the Golan Heights.
and they used terrorism to get it
They did? I thought it was part of the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
Of particular interest is this:
Quote:
Arab attacks on isolated Jewish settlements and British failure to protect the Jews, led to the creation of Haganah (Defense) a mainly socialist Jewish militia dedicated to defending Jewish settlements. Following the 1929 Arab riots, the Revisionist Zionist leader, Jabotinsky, created a right-wing militia called the Irgun Tzvai Leumi (National Military Organization, known in locally by its acronym "Etzel"), this smaller group temporarily merged with Haganah in the thirties.
so israel started experiencing terrorism by arabs in 1929?
israel wasnt a state at that point but we'll allow that concession and
believe they were momentarily
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar-Giora
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashomer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zion_Mule_Corps
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11302103 - 10/22/09 06:30 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
I've said it before and I will repeat it for those who were out of the room. All the Israelis ever wanted was a tiny little slice (slightly smaller than New Jersey) of resource-free desert shithole. They didn't want the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula or the Golan Heights. BUt their neighbors aggressive activities forced them to defend themselves, which they did at great cost but with great success. Now they have given back a great deal of it but have also found in some cases that the nations they captured the territories from won't take the lunatics and assholes that stayed there back. You couldn't pay Egypt enough ransom to take back the Gaza Strip.
Every single anti-Israel bullshit stems from the same well of identifying with the losers that permeates the ever descending state we find ourselves in. Success sucks and failure is a noble pursuit. The Palestinians are genocidal lunatics who would eradicate all Jews if they could. In the face of that what the fuck do you think the Israelis should do? Move to Jonestown?
Good point!!
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11302127 - 10/22/09 06:34 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
All the Israelis ever wanted was a tiny little slice (slightly smaller than New Jersey) of resource-free desert shithole. They didn't want the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula or the Golan Heights.
and they used terrorism to get it
No more so then the terrorism the Muslims are using now. Terrorism is a caught phrase that is abused mostly by my side. You don't have terrorists, you have two sides to a war. The Muslims are no more innocent them my side, and my side is no more innocent then there side. It just so happens that they are the losing side, so all of the Muslims, and liberals are crying like little bitches. It's sicking really.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Hank, FTW]
#11302178 - 10/22/09 06:44 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Satival said:
Just an observation...
In their latest attack on Gaza city 13 Jews were killed, most of them soldiers vs over 13,000 Palestinians, with a larger portion of civilian casualties. The Israeli military insists that they were justified and that no war crimes took place.
So i suppose that 1 Jew is worth 1000 Palestinians then?
Don't get me wrong, I believe that Islam DOES represent a real threat towards progressive and not-insane society, but the same goes for fundamentalist Christians too. Christians and Muslims share very similar belief systems, they don't even realize it, they view each other as a different group and, somewhat naturally, view the other as the inferior.
If Palestinians were white christians this shit would NEVER happen. Western media would condemn this shit outright. American people only tolerate this now because they are either stupid or actually don't care.
I suspect the latter.
Personally I think Israel switches to overkill-occupy-mode way too easily. The US enables them.
Since I am not a bleeding heart liberal I have no qualms with just coming out and saying it. If it were up to me I would retaliate for every death of this conflict ten fold. Which is pretty much what you are descibing the Jews did in the latest war. I don't blame them for it. They had rockets, and motars landing in the middle of their neiborhoods everyday. If someone was slinging mortars, and rockets at you wouldn't you want to send them a clear message. Americans don't care, and it's not because we're stupid or uninformed. We don't care because of the one thing you hit right on the head. The Muslims are a real threat to progressive western ideals.
Your right about christian fundamentalists being a hinderence to progress as well, but let's face it here in the west (where the majority of Christian fanatics live) there is a lot more religious freedom then there is in Muslim countries
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11302298 - 10/22/09 07:02 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
success sucks if it was attained with unethical means.
And I suppose you feel the Muslims have only been ethical on there endevors. Your right killing innocent women, and children is very ethical. I your going to look at one sides atrocities, please don't be blind and arrogant enough to just overlook the other sides.
Quote:
?What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul.? -Jesus
No one cares what Jesus said.
Quote:
Shins said:
i guess all the people who get raped, murdered, and robbed are just "losers" right?
Losers who are guilty of the same atrosities listed above no less.
Quote:
Shins said:
it's about right and wrong, not win or loss.
We get it man. You think the west is evil, and wrong, and that Islam is right as rain. The only problem is your not fooling us. We know about all their attacks on us, we know about their religious intolerance, we know of there violence toward gays, we know about the supression of women. Your not fooling anyone, and I know my side is guilty of infractions, because I'm not delusional like you.
Quote:
Shins said:
if palestinians want to eradicate jews its because they feel they have been wronged by them.
You justifing their hatred is like me justifing the Jews hatred. It's an opinion, not fact. It doesn't make them wanting to erraticate Israel okay.
Quote:
Shins said:
I think most of them would settle with, and want the eradication of Isreal as a nation state, not so much the people therein.
To bad their never going to get it. As a matter of fact pursuing it is only going to find them more death, and dispair
Quote:
Shins said:
i always hear people take "they want to wipe israel out!" out of context as if it refers to wiping out all jews in Israel, and not the state of israel; lines on a map with a Zionist government.
It's not their chose to make. If they could have, they would have. They can't. Bottom line. So now they wine, bitch, and kill people over it. I don't blame them. Just don't expect me to feel bad for them, let alone side with them. They killed my people! so Fuck them!
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11302554 - 10/22/09 07:41 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
Yes extremist Muslims are no good for America, but what about extremist jews? why is it that extremist jews are never condemned and somehow good for America? They are just as bad if not worse! At least Muslims accept the teachings of Jesus, i mean, jews don't believe in hell.
No one cares about your stupid religion except for you, and your fellow religious fanatics. You keep on talking to us about Jesus, and Islam, and how buddy buddy they are like it makes a difference about how I should feel about secular matters.
You may be fooling everyone else into thinking that you come from netrual ground on this issue, but not me.
I asked you if you were a Muslim earlier, and your response was "I'm not arab, and I wouldn't CONSIDER myself a Muslim."
I'm guessing that you are in fact a Muslim, wich would explain your anti-semitism. It would also explain why you try to paint Islam in such colorful light. Making it sound like they haven't committed atrosities, that they are christian friendly, and completely ignoring their long history of violence toward gays, supression of women, and religious intolerance.
You have shown me your true bias, and true colors. You might as well be honest with everyone about it.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Also for all of your peoples pissing, and moaning about my sides wrong doings. I have yet to see one of you offer a viable solution
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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I'm not muslim, christian or jewish, but i believe some things from each religion as well as others.
I think churches have taken some religion too far and people have twisted it for personal gain.
I'm pretty much just playing "devil's advocate" showing the other side of the coin.
it's strange how so many so called conservatives are so liberal when it comes to warfare.
the purpose of this thread was to get insight into people's opinions.
personally i think both sides commit atrocities and that America should have no part in it. separation of church from state right? why are non-abramic people being sucked into the mess by the government when there's supposed to be religious freedom? The jews played a part in the process of sucking america into that, and that could be considered an attack of other sorts. political and economic "warfare" are just as dangerous and a full frontal assault, only it more easly flies under the radar.
I don't know why Muslims, Jews, Christians, atheists, orangutans, who the heck ever cant just share Jerusalem and the world in peace and harmony. why do people have to be genocidal maniacs? like its us vs. them and the earth is running out of space.
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Truth - Love - Courage
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,193
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 11 minutes, 49 seconds
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> I have yet to see one of you offer a viable solution
I had an excellent solution, and the only solution that I see working... bulldoze the entire area and salt the land making it worthless for everybody.
Both sides hate each other. Both sides feel entitled to the land. Neither side is willing to give up their struggle for the land. Other players in the area can use the struggle as a rally cry for their own benefit, thus they have no reason to want to see peace. With such a stacked deck, do you really believe that there is a non-violent solution that will lead to peace?
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11306734 - 10/23/09 01:48 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
I'm not Muslim, christian or Jewish, but i believe some things from each religion as well as others.
I'm not any of them just to throw that out there. From my view point they all look like weak feeble men trying to explain something that none of us are smart enough to explain or understand.
Quote:
Shins said:
I think churches have taken some religion too far and people have twisted it for personal gain.
It's amazing we actually agree on something. Except that I think that the Muslims have by far surpassed everyone else in taking it to far, and have a much higher number of fanatics. Look at my majority christian country. We have Mosques on our land. We let people worship however they want without any government persecution.
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Shins said:
I'm pretty much just playing "devil's advocate" showing the other side of the coin.
Well that may be so, but when you only look at one side of the coin it makes you sound extremely biased. I for one am biased, just like everyone else, but I don't paint an unrealistic picture of what is actually going on.
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Shins said:
it's strange how so many so called conservatives are so liberal when it comes to warfare.
Conservatives are not the only ones responsible for this war for one.
Also I'm not a Republican, because the only people their better then is the democrats, and that's not saying much. People with courage, don't let people kill they're country men with out seeking retribution whether they be liberal or conservative. What do suggest we do hug someone has just killed tho sands of our people. At any rate this is a vulgar generalization.
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Shins said:
the purpose of this thread was to get insight into people's opinions.
And that is exactly what you received. Just not all of them agreed with you.
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Shins said:
personally i think both sides commit atrocities and that America should have no part in it. separation of church from state right?
I have separation of church and state, and I believe America should be involved to avenge the deaths of our fellow country men at the hands of our Islamic Enemy.
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Shins said:
why are non-abramic people being sucked into the mess by the government when there's supposed to be religious freedom?
We do have religious freedom. There are Mosques, Churches, Synagogues, and Scientologist where I come from. Also, and this one is important, I am non-Abrahamic, and I actively participated in this war. I have Arab blood on my hands, and I am a decorated veteran of this war. I did not participate because Israel forced me too. My own government didn't force me too. None of us were drafted. I joined on my own free will, because there was an enemy that had to be dealt with. They had to be dealt with because they spilled the blood of my fellow country men. I never had any interest in going to that shit hole desert until my hand was forced. Israel shares a common enemy, so I WILLFULLY embrace our alliance. Many Americans feel the same.
Quote:
Shins said:
The Jews played a part in the process of sucking America into that, and that could be considered an attack of other sorts. political and economic "warfare" are just as dangerous and a full frontal assault, only it more easily flies under the radar.
No they didn't. We are the biggest superpower in the world, and we made our own choices. It just so happens we share a common enemy, and common interests so we work together with Israel. You can make out to be a conspiracy theory if you want, but I know many Americans know the history of the region, and willfully embrace Alliance with Israel. And to get to the heart of your original question "why does the U.S. support Israel" that is my answer to that question. We share a common enemy, and common goals.
Quote:
Shins said:
I don't know why Muslims, Jews, Christians, atheists, orangutans, who the heck ever cant just share Jerusalem and the world in peace and harmony. why do people have to be genocidal maniacs? like its us vs. them and the earth is running out of space.
Here is where you truly show your mental weakness. You know, I wish that I lived in a world where I never had to anything I didn't want to, and I had as many beautiful women as I wanted, and that it rained money, but it doesn't mean it's ever going to fucking happen.
You have two choices. You can wake up and get in tune with reality, or you can go on dreaming for the rest of your life, and never actually changing anything.
Do you really not see that saying "I wish the world could be better place where everyone gets along, and lives in peace and harmony" doesnt't change anything. Because whether you see it or not, it doesn't change a thing.
If the U.S. stopped supporting Israel it would not change anything. The Muslims would still be to Militarily inferior to take on the Jews. There would still be anger from Arab Muslims toward white Christians. There would still be a whole history of violence, and to much pride to forget it.
Don't you understand that if the west changed it's policies, and eased up on Islam, It doesn't mean it would be reciprocated.
Answer this one question as honestly as you can. If the U.S. today stop it's support for Israel do you really believe that it would dissolve the violence of bloody conflict that's been going on before the U.S. ever existed?
I believe the answer is NO, and that is why I support the alternative of supporting the enemy of my enemy.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
Edited by Simplicitry (10/23/09 01:52 PM)
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Seuss]
#11306841 - 10/23/09 02:04 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
> I have yet to see one of you offer a viable solution
I had an excellent solution, and the only solution that I see working... bulldoze the entire area and salt the land making it worthless for everybody.
There is no solution besides one side losing. Your proposition while humorous is obviously not viable. It's impossible.
Quote:
Seuss said:
Both sides hate each other. Both sides feel entitled to the land. Neither side is willing to give up their struggle for the land. Other players in the area can use the struggle as a rally cry for their own benefit, thus they have no reason to want to see peace. With such a stacked deck, do you really believe that there is a non-violent solution that will lead to peace?
You pretty much hit it on the head here. There is no non-violent solution leading to peace.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Here's a non-violent solution. Murdering lunatics leave the Israelis alone in their tiny little oil-free desert. I can assure one and all that if there are no more attacks against Israel then there will be no more attacks from Israel. Is there one fool among you who believes the opposite?
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11307612 - 10/23/09 04:25 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Here's a non-violent solution. Murdering lunatics leave the Israelis alone in their tiny little oil-free desert. I can assure one and all that if there are no more attacks against Israel then there will be no more attacks from Israel. Is there one fool among you who believes the opposite?
I would agree with you that would solve the problem, but (and this is one huge but) it's never going to happen. The Arabs are not going to stop. You know that as well as I do.
It's funny though, all of the Anti-Semits, and anit-Americans here keep on trying to make it sound like there could be progress if we made concession (something I don't believe), but they won't even talk about Arab concessions. Probably because everyone knows those crazy religious fanatics wouldn't give an inch.
To them it's always "well if America did this" or "If Israel did that". They never talk about the Arabs doing anything.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
Edited by Simplicitry (10/23/09 04:44 PM)
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the_conservatarian
Stranger
Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 104
Last seen: 2 years, 27 days
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11309692 - 10/24/09 12:30 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
Why does the USA support Israel's oppressive, racist, elitist regime?
It's probably since the USA is against oppreseive, racist, elitist regimes. The USA hates Nazi, oppressive, facists like the Taliban. Nazi devil worshippers like the violent, evil Taliban deserve to die and should be shot in the face like any good terrorist. The PLO (Palestinian) suicide bombers should go to Afghanistan and kill the Taliban (along with themselves) in a deranged suicide effort in the name of the fucked up religion that they prescribe to. Let the Nazi assholes of the deranged suicide religion express their views in their own home. Fuck the Taliban. Fuck Al Queda. Fuck Osama bin Laden.
Any questions?
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 6 months, 12 days
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Quote:
They had to be dealt with because they spilled the blood of my fellow country men. I never had any interest in going to that shit hole desert until my hand was forced.
I hope you fought in Afghanistan and not Iraq. Otherwise, this statement makes no sense.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 20,875
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 57 minutes, 55 seconds
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11310726 - 10/24/09 08:13 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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You should go and pick up the Newsweek from a few weeks ago with the "Taliban - In Their Own Words" article series.
It's interesting to hear the Afghani Taliban complaining about how the Arabs they let run free in the country were the ones who perpetrated 9/11 and brought the wrath of the US military down upon them. I've always felt what you stated above to be basically fact, but these guys are saying most of the Arabs have been kicked out or are under close watch and the entire conflict is now much more a Nationalist vs. Imperialist Invader-style dichotomy, as opposed to the popular perception of a terrorist insurgency.
Zappa would likely say it's defeatist propaganda, but I think it's worth a read.
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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If the Taliban had agreed to hand over bin Laden, which was certainly in their capacity to do, they would still be in charge of Afghanistan.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,450
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Your lists are comical... as if one dozens of times as long couldn't be made for (Arab and/or Muslim) civilians killed by the U.S. & it's colonial extension, Israel, over the past several decades.
To reveal the irrefutable point about U.S. opposition in the Arab/Muslim world, why don't you compose a list for me of all the Brazilian citizens killed within Brazil by Muslim militants in that nation's history?
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Every part of this country is sacred to my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove has been hallowed by some fond memory or some sad experience of my tribe.
Even the rocks... as they swelter in the sun along the silent seashore in solemn grandeur thrill with memories of past events... and the very dust under your feet responds more lovingly to our footsteps than to yours, because it is the ashes of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch, for the soil is rich with the life of our kindred.
And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among white men shall have become a myth, these shores shall swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe.
- Chief Seattle
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Your lists are comical... as if one dozens of times as long couldn't be made for (Arab and/or Muslim) civilians killed by the U.S. & it's colonial extension, Israel, over the past several decades.
Quote:
To reveal the irrefutable point about U.S. opposition in the Arab/Muslim world, why don't you compose a list for me of all the Brazilian citizens killed within Brazil by Muslim militants in that nation's history?
Why not Lithuania?
I'm not surprised a bunch of genocidal lunatics are angry that we helped (slightly) stop them from slaughtering Israelis. I'm also not surprised Saddam Hussein hated us for stopping him from invading, plundering and murdering Kuwaitis. I'm also not surprised that completely deranged pieces of shit like Osama bin Laden hates us just because we had the audacity to help his own country avoid a similar fate. John Dillinger hated cops ecause they stopped him from robbing banks. Does that mean they should have let him rob banks?
It's funny that ObL never mentioned Israel until some publicist clued him into the fact that there was a well entrenched group of anti-semitic useful idiots who he could play. Not funny haha but funny odd. He certainly should have known that before he forgot to mention Israel in his diatribes.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 152,645
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11313696 - 10/24/09 04:41 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
If the Taliban had agreed to hand over bin Laden, which was certainly in their capacity to do, they would still be in charge of Afghanistan.
the US had the chance to take bin Laden on many occasions, for some reason
the orders were contrary to that goal not to mention there's nothing
that the FBI claims links him to 9/11... straight from the shrub's mouth
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11313744 - 10/24/09 04:52 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
If the Taliban had agreed to hand over bin Laden, which was certainly in their capacity to do, they would still be in charge of Afghanistan.
the US had the chance to take bin Laden on many occasions, for some reason
the orders were contrary to that goal not to mention there's nothing
that the FBI claims links him to 9/11... straight from the shrub's mouth
What the fuck are you talking about now? Do you think he didn't do 9/11? This is a straight yes or no. Just what is it that you are saying came from Bush's mouth? Because, for once since it is very short, I played the video and I have no idea what you are trying to say. It certainly doesn't say anything about bin Laden not being involved in 9/11.
As far as I know the only chance we had to get ObL was when Clinton was President but he said at the time there was no legal reason to take him. Lack of evidence at the time. Which was several years before 9/11. Then we demanded the T hand him over. They refused. If they had complied they would still be in charge of Afghanistan. Probably. Instead, they chose war.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 152,645
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11314015 - 10/24/09 05:40 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
What the fuck are you talking about now? Do you think he didn't do 9/11? This is a straight yes or no.
does the FBI, the people that investigate terrorism say he's responsible?
Quote:
Just what is it that you are saying came from Bush's mouth? Because, for once since it is very short, I played the video and I have no idea what you are trying to say. It certainly doesn't say anything about bin Laden not being involved in 9/11.
nope but it and a dozen other press conferences show that bin Laden
wasnt a concern, stand down orders, lack of orders, etc came from
commanders
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/02/60minutes/main4494937.shtml
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3342268,00.html
http://www.radicalparty.org/en/content/bin-laden-their-sights
Quote:
As far as I know the only chance we had to get ObL was when Clinton was President but he said at the time there was no legal reason to take him. Lack of evidence at the time. Which was several years before 9/11.
Osama is claimed to have taken the responsibility for the 1993 World
Trade Center Bombing in addition to claiming to be responsible for the
bombing of the USS Cole
Quote:
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm
Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11314381 - 10/24/09 06:51 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
What the fuck are you talking about now? Do you think he didn't do 9/11? This is a straight yes or no.
does the FBI, the people that investigate terrorism say he's responsible?
I thought the CIA was involved as well but that is irrelevant. He says he was. But, of even greater import, what does Pris say?Quote:
Quote:
Just what is it that you are saying came from Bush's mouth? Because, for once since it is very short, I played the video and I have no idea what you are trying to say. It certainly doesn't say anything about bin Laden not being involved in 9/11.
nope but it and a dozen other press conferences show that bin Laden
wasnt a concern, stand down orders, lack of orders, etc came from
commanders
I didn't hear that. What I heard was that Bush said he was neutralized and that there were other targets as well.Quote:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/02/60minutes/main4494937.shtml
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3342268,00.html
http://www.radicalparty.org/en/content/bin-laden-their-sights
I just took the first one and guy was complaining that his ideas weren't implemented. One of the ideas was this
Quote:
The next option that Delta wanted to employ was to drop hundreds of landmines in the mountain passes that led to Pakistan, which was bin Laden’s escape route.
He is clearly insane.Quote:
Quote:
As far as I know the only chance we had to get ObL was when Clinton was President but he said at the time there was no legal reason to take him. Lack of evidence at the time. Which was several years before 9/11.
Osama is claimed to have taken the responsibility for the 1993 World
Trade Center Bombing in addition to claiming to be responsible for the
bombing of the USS Cole
Quote:
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm
Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.
Yeah, so? Take it up with Clinton. He was offered the bitch but said he had no evidence. What does that have to do with the fact that the Taliban had it in their power to remain in power? Nothing.
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11316766 - 10/25/09 04:04 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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This post was derived with objectivity in mind, and the author hopes the reader will view it with the same.
first a video "Criticism of the Talmud" which shows judaism's apparent racism and invitation to persecute non-jews.
second an anti-semite page with anti-jewish quotes from famous people in history.
http://www.iahushua.com/JQ/antisemite.html
i'm going to pick a few quotes from some of the more famous ones.
Quote:
JESUS CHRIST, speaking to the Jews in the Gospel of St. John, VIII:44
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is not truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. - then answered the Jews - "
Quote:
WASHINGTON, GEORGE, in Maxims of George Washington by A. A. Appleton & Co.
"They (the Jews) work more effectively against us, than the enemy's armies. They are a hundred times more dangerous to our liberties and the great cause we are engaged in... It is much to be lamented that each state, long ago, has not hunted them down as pest to society and the greatest enemies we have to the happiness of America."
Quote:
This prophecy, by Benjamin Franklin, was made in a "CHIT CHAT AROUND THE TABLE DURING INTERMISSION," at the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention of 1787. This statement was recorded in the dairy of Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, a delegate from South Carolina.
"I fully agree with General Washington, that we must protect this young nation from an insidious influence and impenetration. The menace, gentlemen, is the Jews.
In whatever country Jews have settled in any great number, they have lowered its moral tone; depreciated its commercial integrity; have segregated themselves and have not been assimilated; have sneered at and tried to undermine the Christian religion upon which that nation is founded, by objecting to its restrictions; have built up a state within the state; and when opposed have tried to strangle that country to death financially, as in the case of Spain and Portugal.
For over 1,700 years, the Jews have been bewailing their sad fate in that they have been exiled from their homeland, as they call Palestine. But gentlemen, did the world give it to them in fee simple, they would at once find some reason for not returning. Why? Because they are vampires, and vampires do not live on vampires. They cannot live only among themselves. They must subsist on Christians and other people not of their race.
If you do not exclude them from these United States, in their Constitution, in less than 200 years they will have swarmed here in such great numbers that they will dominate and devour the land and change our form of government, for which we Americans have shed our blood, given our lives our substance and jeopardized our liberty.
If you do not exclude them, in less than 200 years our descendants will be working in the fields to furnish them substance, while they will be in the counting houses rubbing their hands. I warn you, gentlemen, if you do not exclude Jews for all time, your children will curse you in your graves.
Jews, gentlemen, are Asiatics, let them be born where they will nor how many generations they are away from Asia, they will never be otherwise. Their ideas do not conform to an American's, and will not even thou they live among us ten generations. A leopard cannot change its spots. Jews are Asiatics, are a menace to this country if permitted entrance, and should be excluded by this Constitutional Convention.
Quote:
JEFFERSON, THOMAS. 18th century American statesman.
"Dispersed as the Jews are, they still form one nation, foreign to the land they live in. " (D. Boorstin, THE AMERICANS)
"Those who labor in the earth are the Chosen People of God, if ever he had a chosen people. " (NOTES ON VIRGINIA)
Quote:
CHURCHILL, WINSTON. 20th century British politician. In 1920, he wrote a long newspaper article of the recent Bolshevik seizure of Russia. After praising what he called the "national Jews" of Russia, he said:
"In violent opposition to all this sphere of Jewish efforts rise the schemes of the International Jews. The adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men reared up among the unhappy populations of countries where Jews are persecuted on account of their race. Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all spiritual hopes of the next world. This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxemburg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide revolutionary conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played, as a modern writer, Mrs. Webster has ably shown, a definite recognizable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworlds of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of the enormous empire.
There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creating of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistic Jews. It is certainly the very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders... In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astounding. And the prominent if not the principal part in the system of terrorism applied by the extraordinary Commissions for combating Counter Revolution has been take by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses. The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in the brief period of terror during which Bela Kun ruled in Hungary. The same phenomenon has been presented in Germany (especially Bavaria), so far as this madness has been allowed to prey upon the temporary prostration of the German people. Although in all these countries there are many nonJews every whit as bad as the worst of the Jewish revolutionaries, the part played by the latter in proportion to their numbers in the population is astonishing. ("Zionism versus Bolshevism: A Struggle for the Soul of the Jewish People." ILLUSTRATED SUNDAY HERALD, London, February 8, 1920.)
Quote:
MARTIN LUTHER, Table Talk of Martin Luther, translated by William Hazlet, page 43
"But the Jews are so hardened that they listen to nothing; though overcome by testimonies they yield not an inch. It is a pernicious race, oppressing all men by their usury and rapine. If they give a prince or magistrate a thousand florins, they extort twenty thousand from the subjects in payment. We must ever keep on guard against them."
Quote:
MARIA THERESA, Queen of Hungary and Bohemia (1771 - 1789)
"Henceforth no Jew, no matter under what name, will be allowed to remain here without my written permission. I know of no other troublesome pest within the state than this race, which impoverished the people by their fraud, usury and money-lending and commits all deeds which an honorable man despises. Subsequently they have to be removed and excluded from here as much as possible."
Quote:
MOHAMMED, in the Koran
"Whoever is a friend of a Jew, belong to them, becomes one of them, God cannot tolerate this mean people. The Jews have wandered from divine religion. You must not relent in your work which must show up Jewish deceit."
Quote:
VLADIMIR, LENIN, Founder of Bolshevik Communist (From an article in Northern Pravda, October-December 1913, qouted in Lenin on the Jewish Question, page 10)
"There the great universally progressive features of Jewish culture have made themselves clearly felt: its internationalism, its responsiveness of the advanced movements of our times (the percentage of Jews in democratic and proletarian movements is everywhere higher than the percentage of Jews in the general population.)
...Those Jewish Marxists who join up in the international Marxist organizations with the Russian, Lithuanian, Ukrainian and other workers, adding their might (both in Russian and in Jewish) to the creation of an international culture of the working class movement, are continuing the best traditions of Jewry."
Quote:
HENRY FORD in (The Dearborn Independent, 12-19 February 1921
"Jews have always controlled the business... The motion picture influence of the United States and Canada... is exclusively under the control, moral and financial, of the Jewish manipulators of the public mind."
Quote:
GRANT, USYSSES S. 19th century American general, politician. While in command of the 13th Army Corps, headquartered at Oxford, Mississippi, he became so infuriated at Jewish camp-followers attempting to penetrate the conquered territory that he finally attempted to expel the Jews:
"I have long since believed that in spite of all the vigilance that can be infused into post commanders, the special regulations of the Treasury Department have been violated, and that mostly by Jews and other unprincipled traders. So well satisfied have I been of this that I instructed the commanding officers at Columbus to refuse all permits to Jews to come South, and I have frequently had them expelled from the department, but they come in with their carpet-sacks in spite of all that can be done to prevent it. The Jews seem to be a privileged class that can travel anywhere. They will land at any woodyard on the river and make their way through the country. If not permitted to buy cotton themselves, they will act as agents for someone else, who will be at military post with a Treasury permit to receive cotton and pay for it in Treasury notes which the Jew will buy up at an agreed rate, paying gold. (Letters to C. P. Wolcott, assistant secretary of war, Washington, December 17, 1862)
1. The Jews, as a class, violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department, and also Department orders, are hereby expelled from the Department.
2. Within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order by Post Commanders, they will see that all of this class of people are furnished with passes and required to leave, and anyone returning after such notification, will be arrested and held in confinement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as prisoners, unless furnished with permits from these headquarters.
3. No permits will be given these people to visit headquarters for the purpose of making personal application for trade permits.
By order of Major Gen. Grant Jno. A. Rawlings, Assistant Adjutant General (General Order Number 11, December 17, 1862)
The expulsion order was immediately countermanded by the general-in-chief, H. W. Halleck, in Washington. Apparently the expelled Jews had immediately contacted their kinsmen there and had pressure brought to bear.
Quote:
WELLS, H. G. 20th century British writer.
"The Jews looked for a special savior, a messiah, who was to redeem mankind by the agreeable process of restoring the fabulous glories of David and Solomon, and bringing the whole world at last under the firm but benevolent Jewish heel." (The Outline of History)
"Zionism is an expression of Jewish refusal to assimilate. If the Jews have suffered, it is because they have regarded themselves as a chosen people." (The Anatomy of Frustration)
"A careful study of anti-Semitism prejudice and accusations might be of great value to many Jews, who do not adequately realize the irritations they inflict." (Letter of November 11, 1933)
Wells was in the habit of referring to KARL MARX as "a shallow third-rate Jew," and "a lousy Jew" in private correspondence. (Norman MacKenzie, H. G. Wells)
Quote:
LINDBERGH, CHARLES. 20th century American aviator, writer.
Wednesday, August 23, 1939
"We are disturbed about the effect of the Jewish influence in our press, radio and motion pictures. It may become very serious. [Fulton] Lewis told us of one instance where the Jewish advertising firms threatened to remove all their advertising from the Mutual system if a certain feature were permitted to go on the air. The threat was powerful enough to have the feature removed."
Thursday, May 1, 1941
"The pressure for war is high and mounting. The people are opposed to it, but the Administration seems to have 'the bit in its teeth' and is hell-bent on its way to war. Most of the Jewish interests in the country are behind war, and they control a huge part of our press and radio and most of our motion pictures. There are the 'intellectuals' and the 'Anglophiles,' and the British agents who are allowed free rein, the international financial interests, and many others." (The Wartime Journals)
Quote:
BONAPARTE, NAPOLEON. French statesman, general.
"The Jews provided troops for my campaign in Poland, but they ought to reimburse me: I soon found that they are no good for anything but selling old clothes..."
"Legislating must be put in effect everywhere that the general well-being is in danger. The government cannot look with indifference on the way a despicable nation takes possession of all the provinces of France. The Jews are the master robbers of the modern age; they are the carrion birds of humanity... "They must be treated with political justice, not with civil justice. They are surely not real citizens."
"The Jews have practiced usury since the time of Moses, and oppressed the other peoples. Meanwhile, the Christians were only rarely usurers, falling into disgrace when they did so. We ought to ban the Jews from commerce because they abuse it... The evils of the Jews do not stem from individuals but from the fundamental nature of this people." (From Napoleon's Reflections, and from speeches before the Council of State on April 30 and May 7, 1806.)
"Nothing more contemptible could be done than the reception of the Jews by you. I decided to improve the Jews. But I do not want more of them in my kingdom. Indeed, I have done all to prove my scorn of the most vile nation in the world." (Letter to his brother Jerome, King of Westphalia, March 6, 1808)
(1) Every big and small Jew is the peddling trade must renew his license every year.
(2) Checks and other obligations are only redeemable if the Jew can prove that he has obtained the money without cheating. (Ordinance of March 17, 1808. Napoleonic Code.)
Why is it that so many people including founding fathers were anti-semites? why is it that so many countries throughout history have had problems involving jews? why is it that the "anti-semite" card is used to try to quash legitimate concerns?
is it possible that jews are not completely the victims they would like you to think they are? is it possible you've been fooled into siding with them?
I would like to ask every north american if you believe that the teachings of the talmud goes with, or against your values as an american.
Edited by Shins (10/25/09 04:32 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11317147 - 10/25/09 07:35 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well are they or are they not anti-semitic? Or are you just playing the anti-semite card? You can certainly criticize Israel without being anti-semitic. But it quite often devolves into anti semitism. For instance your complaint that they consider themselves the Chosen People. Every religious group thinks they are better or preferred by god. Even atheists such as myself think they are better because they aren't dumb enough to waste any energy worshiping the Sacred Flying Spaghetti Monster. To single out the Chosen People for that is anti-semitic. Why do you attack Jews for doing exactly the same thing as every other religion?
You do know that Jesus was a Jew don't you? You also realize that the Torah is part of the Christian bible and sacred to Muslims, don't you? Next you'll be quoting from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and alleging that Jews use Palestinian baby blood to bake matzoh.
The chance of me watching that video is zero.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 152,645
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11317154 - 10/25/09 07:38 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
What the fuck are you talking about now? Do you think he didn't do 9/11? This is a straight yes or no.
does the FBI, the people that investigate terrorism say he's responsible?
I thought the CIA was involved as well but that is irrelevant. He says he was. But, of even greater import, what does Pris say?
pris isnt the investigator, he doesnt bring charges against anyone
Quote:
I didn't hear that. What I heard was that Bush said he was neutralized and that there were other targets as well.
bush said a lot of shit to avoid answering questions
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/02/60minutes/main4494937.shtml
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3342268,00.html
http://www.radicalparty.org/en/content/bin-laden-their-sights
I just took the first one and guy was complaining that his ideas weren't implemented. One of the ideas was this
Quote:
The next option that Delta wanted to employ was to drop hundreds of landmines in the mountain passes that led to Pakistan, which was bin Laden�s escape route.
He is clearly insane.
of course... so were the french and the US commanders
Quote:
As far as I know the only chance we had to get ObL was when Clinton was President but he said at the time there was no legal reason to take him. Lack of evidence at the time. Which was several years before 9/11.
Osama is claimed to have taken the responsibility for the 1993 World
Trade Center Bombing in addition to claiming to be responsible for the
bombing of the USS Cole
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm
Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.
Yeah, so? Take it up with Clinton. He was offered the bitch but said he had no evidence. What does that have to do with the fact that the Taliban had it in their power to remain in power? Nothing.
it was Bush's vow to bring bin Laden to justice
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2001-12/a-2001-12-18-6-Bush.cfm?moddate=2001-12-18
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Bush-Vows-to-Hunt-bin-Laden-Down-in-Pakistan-if-Necessary-36114.shtml
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11317190 - 10/25/09 07:50 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
What the fuck are you talking about now? Do you think he didn't do 9/11? This is a straight yes or no.
does the FBI, the people that investigate terrorism say he's responsible?
I thought the CIA was involved as well but that is irrelevant. He says he was. But, of even greater import, what does Pris say?
pris isnt the investigator, he doesnt bring charges against anyone
Which has nothing to do with Pris stating his opinion clearly.Quote:
Quote:
I didn't hear that. What I heard was that Bush said he was neutralized and that there were other targets as well.
bush said a lot of shit to avoid answering questions
Which is unrelated to the fact that he didn't say what you said he said, which was this:
Quote:
the US had the chance to take bin Laden on many occasions, for some reason
the orders were contrary to that goal not to mention there's nothing
that the FBI claims links him to 9/11... straight from the shrub's mouth
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/02/60minutes/main4494937.shtml
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3342268,00.html
http://www.radicalparty.org/en/content/bin-laden-their-sights
I just took the first one and guy was complaining that his ideas weren't implemented. One of the ideas was this
Quote:
The next option that Delta wanted to employ was to drop hundreds of landmines in the mountain passes that led to Pakistan, which was bin Laden�s escape route.
He is clearly insane.
of course... so were the french and the US commanders
What are you talking about? That nut wanted to salt the whole area with land mines. Clearly he was over-ruled.Quote:
Quote:
As far as I know the only chance we had to get ObL was when Clinton was President but he said at the time there was no legal reason to take him. Lack of evidence at the time. Which was several years before 9/11.
Osama is claimed to have taken the responsibility for the 1993 World
Trade Center Bombing in addition to claiming to be responsible for the
bombing of the USS Cole
Yeah. But Clinton said he didn't have any evidence with which to try him. That's why he turned them down when they offered up bin Laden. What's your point? That Clinton was an asshole or that they are phony claims?Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm
Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.
Yeah, so? Take it up with Clinton. He was offered the bitch but said he had no evidence. What does that have to do with the fact that the Taliban had it in their power to remain in power? Nothing.
it was Bush's vow to bring bin Laden to justice
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2001-12/a-2001-12-18-6-Bush.cfm?moddate=2001-12-18
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Bush-Vows-to-Hunt-bin-Laden-Down-in-Pakistan-if-Necessary-36114.shtml
Yeah, he blew that one. I can understand me being disappointed Bush didn't get him but you?
What does any of that have to do with the fact that the Taliban would still be in power if they had simply handed him over? Nothing.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,450
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11318846 - 10/25/09 01:28 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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More Arabs & Muslims have been killed in their homelands by American weapons than Americans in their communities by Muslims... to contest this you would have to claim that the death toll of Arabic/Muslim civilians from American bombs & bullets was less than 3500, which even the U.S. government has acknowledged more than that were killed in the first couple of weeks of the 2003 invasion... excluding all the other instances before & after.
Kuwait was defended from Saddam's aggression only because they a) had a pro-Western government & b) exported something valuable to the West.
P.S. I still patiently await that Brazilian casualty list at the hands of Muslims.
P.P.S. Not you but somebody else said something about Kosovo/Serbia intervention being motivated by altruism; It wasn't. It was to get rid of a pro-Moscow, anti-neoliberal Serbian leader & to get Kosovo out of their hands. If it was altruism, the U.S. would have been in many parts of Africa also (where, in a number of them, Western, including America, arms were being used to commit every atrocity under the sun.)
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Every part of this country is sacred to my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove has been hallowed by some fond memory or some sad experience of my tribe.
Even the rocks... as they swelter in the sun along the silent seashore in solemn grandeur thrill with memories of past events... and the very dust under your feet responds more lovingly to our footsteps than to yours, because it is the ashes of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch, for the soil is rich with the life of our kindred.
And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among white men shall have become a myth, these shores shall swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe.
- Chief Seattle
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Chespirito
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,223
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11319309 - 10/25/09 02:42 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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"They (the Jews) work more effectively against us, than the enemy's armies. They are a hundred times more dangerous to our liberties and the great cause we are engaged in... It is much to be lamented that each state, long ago, has not hunted them down as pest to society and the greatest enemies we have to the happiness of America.
Sometimes rendered : The Jews work more effectively against us than the enemy's armies. They are a hundred times more dangerous to our liberties and the great cause we are engaged in... It is much to be lamented that each state, long ago, has not hunted them down as pest to society and the greatest enemies we have to the happiness of America.
Both of these are doctored statements that have been widely disseminated as genuine on many anti-semitic websites;
They are distortions derived from a statement that may be authentic, and was attributed to George Washington in Maxims of George Washington (1894) about currency speculators during the Revolutionary war, not about Jews: "This tribe of black gentry work more effectually against us, than the enemy's arms. They are a hundred times more dangerous to our liberties, and the great cause we are engaged in. It is much to be lamented that each State, long ere this, has not hunted them down as pests to society, and the greatest enemies we have to the happiness of America." More information is available at Snopes. com: "To Bigotry, No Sanction""
Also you have listed on those quotes a series of known anti-semites. Ford? Lindbergh? Luther? Are you kidding me?
"I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist, and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations. If I were an atheist of the other sect, who believe, or pretend to believe that all is ordered by chance, I should believe that chance had ordered the Jews to preserve and propagate to all mankind the doctrine of a supreme, intelligent, wise, almighty sovereign of the universe, which I believe to be the great essential principle of all morality, and consequently of all civilization.
John Adams"
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jews
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11322219 - 10/25/09 11:27 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Well are they or are they not anti-semitic? Or are you just playing the anti-semite card? You can certainly criticize Israel without being anti-semitic. But it quite often devolves into anti semitism. For instance your complaint that they consider themselves the Chosen People. Every religious group thinks they are better or preferred by god. Even atheists such as myself think they are better because they aren't dumb enough to waste any energy worshiping the Sacred Flying Spaghetti Monster. To single out the Chosen People for that is anti-semitic. Why do you attack Jews for doing exactly the same thing as every other religion?
You do know that Jesus was a Jew don't you? You also realize that the Torah is part of the Christian bible and sacred to Muslims, don't you? Next you'll be quoting from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and alleging that Jews use Palestinian baby blood to bake matzoh.
The chance of me watching that video is zero.
I dont think i can honestly say that post was not "using the anti-semite card"
It's hard not to criticize a religious national state without also criticizing the religion, especially in the case of Israel since religion was the whole premise to it's inception. but i get your point. criticize the ideas not the person (or state).
Okay. maybe i'm singling out jews here, but i think it's relevant to the thread
Are jewsish people not anti-non-semite?
mostly everyone in Israel way back when was jewish. i understand jesus was killed for blasphemy.
Is every part of the talmud embraced by islam and christianity? i'm really not an expert to be honest. this is a learning process for me. so basically they all follow the same scripture only Christians and Muslims follow "blasphemers" in the eyes of jews, and muslums are blasphemers in the eyes of christians?
Edited by Shins (10/25/09 11:43 PM)
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Chespirito]
#11322239 - 10/25/09 11:33 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks for the link Chespirito, and i appreciate the counter-argument.
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Truth - Love - Courage
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 5,772
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11322332 - 10/26/09 12:35 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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about a previous topic; "enemy of my enemy is my friend" is the idea pretty much that, although jews may be egotistical, and perhaps they are involved a lot with finance, government, media etc, they are not really an immediate threat to western society and they perhaps helped build it? Whereas extremist muslims and followers of "oppressive" or disagreeable islamic schools of law are a detriment, and being such makes marginalizing them globally an objective?
on the topic of jerusalem; basically, muslims and their occupation of Jerusalem are blasphemous and jews prophetically "belong" in Israel according to them and were kind of screwed out of it by the romans? Muslims managed to get it from rome (byzantine,) and mostly ruled over it for about 1500 years excluding short periods of byzantine and crusader control?
fast forward to 1900's; Jews allied with "the west" have retaken jerusalem and here we are today.
Jews believe they prophetically own jerusalem, but muslims detest the fact it was taken from them after 1500 years of rule, and believe that their prophets and laws are legit?
so this is put simply a conflict of prophecy? US nationalism be damned, it's us or them?
tough shit this is!
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Truth - Love - Courage
Edited by Shins (10/26/09 12:57 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
More Arabs & Muslims have been killed in their homelands by American weapons than Americans in their communities by Muslims... to contest this you would have to claim that the death toll of Arabic/Muslim civilians from American bombs & bullets was less than 3500, which even the U.S. government has acknowledged more than that were killed in the first couple of weeks of the 2003 invasion... excluding all the other instances before & after.
That's it. BLAME THE BULLETS. Forget about who pulls the trigger. And you continue to express the ludicrous notion that being successful in stopping murdering thug scum is unacceptable unless you can do it with a magical unicorn ray that doesn't hurt anybody.Quote:
Kuwait was defended from Saddam's aggression only because they a) had a pro-Western government & b) exported something valuable to the West.
Which has nothing to do with anything. Unless you're trying to make a case that we should intervene in ALL conflicts. Which I doubt.Quote:
P.S. I still patiently await that Brazilian casualty list at the hands of Muslims.
Hold your breath. It's coming. I promise. Keep holding it. Hooooold it.Quote:
P.P.S. Not you but somebody else said something about Kosovo/Serbia intervention being motivated by altruism; It wasn't. It was to get rid of a pro-Moscow, anti-neoliberal Serbian leader & to get Kosovo out of their hands. If it was altruism, the U.S. would have been in many parts of Africa also (where, in a number of them, Western, including America, arms were being used to commit every atrocity under the sun.)
If Western nations were to entirely cease production of weapons do you think that it would end any conflict? Because, mighty unicorn warrior, that is demonstrably absurd. On the contrary it is far more likely that strength prevents many conflicts. Just like a police force prevents burglaries. Not all of them but a lot of them.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
More Arabs & Muslims have been killed in their homelands by American weapons than Americans in their communities by Muslims... to contest this you would have to claim that the death toll of Arabic/Muslim civilians from American bombs & bullets was less than 3500, which even the U.S. government has acknowledged more than that were killed in the first couple of weeks of the 2003 invasion... excluding all the other instances before & after.
Yes we are more effective when it comes to warfare. What's your point? Just because they have more casualities means that their ideologies are right, and that they haven't done anything wrong? That makes no sense.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Kuwait was defended from Saddam's aggression only because they a) had a pro-Western government & b) exported something valuable to the West.
Everyone knows that. We look out for our interests like everyone else on the planet. I think the real question is why wouldn't we help a pro-western goverment that exported oil that we want? Especially when the illeagal entry by Suddam gave us world support in doing so.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
P.S. I still patiently await that Brazilian casualty list at the hands of Muslims.
Your really stuck on this one aren't you. Just because Brazil is not involved in the conflict doesn't mean that America started the conflict. It also does not immunize the Muslims for their side of the agression. So what's your point?
If your trying to say America throw the first stone, it probably has something to do with the fact that you are so stupid, you tried telling me that Muslim agressions toward western influence started in WW2 in one of you previous posts.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
Edited by Simplicitry (10/26/09 02:32 PM)
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Simplicitry
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11324768 - 10/26/09 01:08 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
about a previous topic; "enemy of my enemy is my friend" is the idea pretty much that, although jews may be egotistical, and perhaps they are involved a lot with finance, government, media etc, they are not really an immediate threat to western society and they perhaps helped build it? Whereas extremist muslims and followers of "oppressive" or disagreeable islamic schools of law are a detriment, and being such makes marginalizing them globally an objective?
I would only like to add to your statement above. Muslim retoric against the west, and Muslim violence toward the west, along with deep Ideoligical differences(their hatred of gays, and religious freedom) make them the enemy of the west, and the Jew a friend of the west.
Quote:
Shins said:
fast forward to 1900's; Jews allied with "the west" have retaken jerusalem and here we are today.
Jews believe they prophetically own jerusalem, but muslims detest the fact it was taken from them after 1500 years of rule, and believe that their prophets and laws are legit?
so this is put simply a conflict of prophecy? US nationalism be damned, it's us or them
I don't care about any of the prophacies, and I support Israel for secular reasons. Many Americans feel the same.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Quote:
the fact that your so stupid,
Laderrrrr
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the_conservatarian
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11349946 - 10/30/09 01:07 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
This post was derived with objectivity in mind, and the author hopes the reader will view it with the same.
Really? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... I could have sworn that this post began with:
Quote:
Why does the USA support Israel's oppressive, racist, elitist regime?
I'd like to know your opinion.
This is important because it's why "the terrorists" don't like the USA, and it ties in to world war one, two, and possibly three.
Objective? Sure....................
If there is an argument to be made, then Zappa, DieCommie, and Simplicitry make the most logical points.
You suggest that it's possible for WW3 to occur simply because "the terrorists" don't like the USA - which speaks mouthfuls. Your point is very true... fascists have always attempted to destroy what they "don't like" ("hate") with relentless force.
Now you may wish for Israel (and/or the U.S.) to be annihilated by its neighbors. Many fascist religious sociopaths share that opinion.
You ask why the U.S. supports Israel. I guess it's since the U.S. prefers to deal with peace-loving, non aggressive entities.
So to answer your question, the U.S. supports Israel, so that Israel may survive the relentless attacks from brutal, violent fanatical fascists.
And why do you think this is such a bad thing?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
the_conservatarian said:
So to answer your question, the U.S. supports Israel, so that Israel may survive the relentless attacks from brutal, violent fanatical fascists.
And why do you think this is such a bad thing?
Relentless attacks? Remind me when Israel was attacked in the last 35 years. Unless you're just talking about Palestinians trying (unsuccessfully) to protect their Arab land from Israeli settlements.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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What makes it the Palestinian's land? Nothing. They regularly launch rocket attacks into Israel. See that word, there? "Attacks". Yep, they count.
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GI_Luvmoney
Vote Republican!
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Posts: 939
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11352482 - 10/30/09 01:59 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Edited by GI_Luvmoney (10/30/09 02:00 PM)
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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GI_Luvmoney
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http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60905
Six clichés you are likely to hear constantly in the coming days, and why they’re false
Yigal Walt
1) “Israel’s response in Gaza is disproportionate”
Since when is war a mathematical equation? The basic objective of any warring party is to inflict maximal damage on the enemy while minimizing its own casualties. Was there anything proportional about the US war in Iraq? Or about Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait for that matter? Or about Russia’s recent war against Georgia? Israel is doing exactly what any other country has done in the past. This is how war works.
Would a British citizen complain that “too few” British soldiers are being killed in Iraq? Probably not.
And on a more elementary note: Palestinian military inferiority is not an indication of moral superiority. Palestinian insistence on resorting to violence despite this military weakness is an indication of poor judgment perhaps – yet it is by no means an indication of moral virtue. Being militarily weak does not make the Palestinians right.
2) “But Qassams don’t kill”
Actually, Qassams do kill. Not too often, perhaps, but dozens of Israelis were killed and wounded by rocket fire in recent years. Moreover, at this time the Palestinians are firing long-range Grad rockets with even greater explosive power. Such rockets killed 2 Israelis Monday.
Yet beyond the casualty figures, the psychological damage caused as result of living under an ongoing rocket threat is immeasurable. Would anyone in the West agree to have their family live under constant rocket attacks and be regularly woken up by sirens in the middle of the night? Would anyone living under such conditions appreciate being told that “these rockets don’t kill?” Probably not.
3) “It’s all because of Israel’s siege. Israel should allow aid into Gaza.”
Israel has allowed goods into Gaza regularly throughout the “siege”. Palestinians have been able to complement these deliveries with supplies smuggled through hundreds of tunnels (of course, they would likely be able to bring in even more food had they not used the tunnels to smuggle in missiles.).
The day before operation “Cast Lead” got underway, Israel allowed dozens of trucks carrying aid to enter the Strip. On Tuesday, another 100 trucks – double the normal number –are expected to enter Gaza after Defense Minister Barak approved the move.
In short, Israel is allowing aid into the Strip (but guess who has kept Gaza crossings mostly closed thus far? That’s right, Egypt.)
4) “Why didn’t Israel just agree to renew the Gaza truce?”
First, what truce? Terror groups continued to fire rockets throughout the lull, even if somewhat infrequently, and even if the world didn’t seem to care too much. Nonetheless, Israel clearly declared that it is interested in extending the truce. Our top officials made it clear time and again.
Yet Hamas leaders clearly declared that the truce has ended on December 19th, and proceeded to bombard southern Israeli communities with dozens of rockets daily. In short, it is no wonder that even the Egyptians are blaming Hamas this time.
5) “But Hamas was elected democratically – why can’t Israel accept it?”
Although Hamas won the Palestinian elections, it took Gaza by force, in the process hurling rival Fatah members down to their death from high-rises and shooting others in the knees with the declared aim of maiming them. Some democracy.
In any case, Israel in fact “recognizes,” de facto, Hamas’ rule in Gaza, which is precisely why it is justified in attacking the Hamas-ruled Strip, recognizing that it is indeed being governed by a terror entity. Israel did not launch the operation because Hamas is in power there – rather, it did so because Hamas is a terrorist organization that has deliberately targeted civilians with thousands of rockets over the past 8 years.
6) “Israel is targeting civilians”
You mean to say that “one of the most powerful armies in the world” has been bombing Gaza for days, deploying massive air power, dropping hundreds of bombs, and ultimately killing a grand total of 50 civilians or so in the “most crowded place on earth?”
There are two options here:
A) The Israeli army is not targeting civilians, or
B) Israeli pilots suck.
We tend to go with option A.
Indeed, Israel goes to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties, by deploying precise ammunition and specialized techniques. In fact, nobody in the world does this better than the Jewish State.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60905
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11355588 - 10/31/09 12:25 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
What makes it the Palestinian's land? Nothing. They regularly launch rocket attacks into Israel. See that word, there? "Attacks". Yep, they count.
C'mon now. I'm sure you've heard of UN Resolution 181. Don't like the rocket attacks? Then tell Israel to quit settling on Arab land.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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the_conservatarian
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Relentless attacks? Remind me when Israel was attacked in the last 35 years. Unless you're just talking about Palestinians trying (unsuccessfully) to protect their Arab land from Israeli settlements.
Seriously...?
Have you read a newspaper or book in the last 35 years?
Ever heard of Egyptian Islamic Jihad? Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya? Abu Nidal Organization? Hezbollah? Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade? HAMAS? PFLP? al Qaeda?
These groups in "support of Palestine" are operating outside of Palestine and have nothing to do with Palestine, besides their religious agreement of world domination.
I hate to say it, but as long as the racist Palestinians would prefer to die than share peace with Israel, they will have to continue to massacre themselves.
It's all a very sad situation. I hope the world improves...
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
the_conservatarian said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Relentless attacks? Remind me when Israel was attacked in the last 35 years. Unless you're just talking about Palestinians trying (unsuccessfully) to protect their Arab land from Israeli settlements.
Seriously...?
Have you read a newspaper or book in the last 35 years?
Ever heard of Egyptian Islamic Jihad? Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya? Abu Nidal Organization? Hezbollah? Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade? HAMAS? PFLP? al Qaeda?
These groups in "support of Palestine" are operating outside of Palestine and have nothing to do with Palestine, besides their religious agreement of world domination.
I hate to say it, but as long as the racist Palestinians would prefer to die than share peace with Israel, they will have to continue to massacre themselves.
It's all a very sad situation. I hope the world improves...
Some would prefer to die than give up their land to Israel settlers. It is a very sad situation. I hope Israel quits stealing land.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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the_conservatarian
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Some would prefer to die than give up their land to Israel settlers. It is a very sad situation. I hope Israel quits stealing land.
Not only would they like to die, but they would prefer to ensure the complete murder of Israel along the way. These groups have vowed that:
"Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
That's the very first of the fascist Charters of HAMAS, by the way.
HAMAS and other anti-Israel groups subscribe to the slogan of "Death to Zionists. Death to Infidels."
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GI_Luvmoney
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Liberal cry babies don't care when muslims kill muslims. That's just their culture. Muslims stole all of the land that they claim is theirs.
Taken from www.jihadwatch.org
Quote:
Ban Ki-Moon, call your office: Egyptians open fire on Palestinians
All these Palestinians were trying to do was get out of Gaza. They lobbed no rockets into Egypt. They indulged in no genocidal rhetoric about wiping Egypt off the map and driving all the Egyptians into the sea. They never celebrated as heroes the murderers of Egyptian civilians on buses and in restaurants. Yet when the Egyptian border guards opened fire on these Palestinians, they could be secure in the knowledge that the world would not utter a peep of protest. Everyone will be fine with this. Only the Israelis engage in "disproportionate violence."
Quote:
"Egyptians open fire on Palestinians," from The Press Association, December 28 (thanks to Andrew Bostom):
Egyptian border guards have opened fire on Palestinians who breached the border to escape Israel's assault on Hamas in the Gaza Strip.
An Egyptian security official said there were at least five breaches along the nine-mile border and hundreds of Palestinian residents were pouring in.
At least 300 Egyptian border guards have been rushed to the area to reseal the border, the official added on condition on anonymity because he was not authorised to speak to the press.
A resident of the Gaza Strip side of the border, Fida Kishta, said that Egyptian border guards opened fire to drive back the Palestinians.
Residents have also commandeered a bulldozer to open new breaches.
Palestinians reported several people were wounded by the gunfire....
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60853
Edited by GI_Luvmoney (10/31/09 11:09 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
What makes it the Palestinian's land? Nothing. They regularly launch rocket attacks into Israel. See that word, there? "Attacks". Yep, they count.
C'mon now. I'm sure you've heard of UN Resolution 181. Don't like the rocket attacks? Then tell Israel to quit settling on Arab land.
That might be of some relevance if the rocket attacks were coming from the West Bank. They are not, they are coming from the Gaza Strip, which the Israelis vacated and which is controlled by a completely different faction of Palestinian governance. Nice try, though.
As for the UN they have long ago been co-opted by the sheer number of Islamic members.
UN member nations by religious affiliation:
Islamic 57
Jewish 1
Quote:
In a crushing blow to the freedom of speech worldwide, the United Nations Human Rights Council last Thursday approved a resolution calling upon member states to provide legal “protection against acts of hatred, discrimination, intimidation and coercion resulting from defamation of religions and incitement to religious hatred in general.”
While the resolution speaks of religion in general, the proposal came from Pakistan and had the backing of the powerful 57-government Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), the UN’s largest voting bloc – so it was clear that Islam was the only religion the drafters of the resolution had in mind. This is underscored by the fact that Muslim states have worked energetically to make “Islamophobia” the focus of Durban II -- the UN’s upcoming second World Conference on Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance. A draft declaration declares that “defamation of Islam” should be a criminal offense, even when it takes place under the “pretext” of “freedom of expression, counter terrorism or national security.”
http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=34589
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11357554 - 10/31/09 12:20 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Just looking at the membership of the UNHRC is enough for a whole day's worth of lols.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11358261 - 10/31/09 02:24 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
C'mon now. I'm sure you've heard of UN Resolution 181. Don't like the rocket attacks? Then tell Israel to quit settling on Arab land.
That might be of some relevance if the rocket attacks were coming from the West Bank. They are not, they are coming from the Gaza Strip, which the Israelis vacated and which is controlled by a completely different faction of Palestinian governance. Nice try, though.
That's like saying you would understand if the New York National Guard invaded Afghanistan, but the US military has no right to be there, since the 911 attacks were only against New York.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
As for the UN they have long ago been co-opted by the sheer number of Islamic members.
UN member nations by religious affiliation:
Islamic 57
Jewish 1
So you're saying human rights abuses are not a problem just because Israel thinks so? 
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
C'mon now. I'm sure you've heard of UN Resolution 181. Don't like the rocket attacks? Then tell Israel to quit settling on Arab land.
That might be of some relevance if the rocket attacks were coming from the West Bank. They are not, they are coming from the Gaza Strip, which the Israelis vacated and which is controlled by a completely different faction of Palestinian governance. Nice try, though.
That's like saying you would understand if the New York National Guard invaded Afghanistan, but the US military has no right to be there, since the 911 attacks were only against New York.
No. The two Palestinian areas are quite separate and controlled by completely separate entities. One of those areas has settlements but does not send rockets. The other area has no settlements and does send rockets. Keep wiggling.Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
As for the UN they have long ago been co-opted by the sheer number of Islamic members.
UN member nations by religious affiliation:
Islamic 57
Jewish 1
So you're saying human rights abuses are not a problem just because Israel thinks so?
No. I'm saying the UN has no credibility. Do you think settlements are human rights abuses? Do you drink this early in the day regularly?
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,450
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Quote:
Just because they have more casualities means that their ideologies are right, and that they haven't done anything wrong? That makes no sense.
As such, I never said what you are accusing me of saying. What I said was that these backward fundamentalist ideologies are encouraged by foreign occupation & support of dictatorships. This is not only my opinion, but also the firsthand knowledge of every (moderate, striving for modernity & democracy) Muslim that I have talked to.
Quote:
Your really stuck on this one aren't you. Just because Brazil is not involved in the conflict doesn't mean that America started the conflict. It also does not immunize the Muslims for their side of the agression. So what's your point?
If your trying to say America throw the first stone, it probably has something to do with the fact that you are so stupid, you tried telling me that Muslim aggression toward western influence started in WW2 in one of you previous posts.
Can you chronicle for me Muslim militant attacks within America prior to WWII or prior to excessive U.S. meddling in their societies (which in Iran & Iraq included successfully subverting popular, secular governments that were seen as a threat to Western oil interests?)
Brazil is energy independent. If the U.S. had also pursued energy independence post-WWII instead of meddling in other peoples' affairs halfway around the world to obtain energy favorably, then the list of Muslim militant attacks within the U.S. would be the same length as it is for Brazil.
If you want to be backwards like a Muslim fundamentalist & start going back hundreds of years, then you are wasting your time. Both Muslims & Christians have historically committed atrocities & waged aggression against each other. Most Muslims couldn't care less about that now. They care about job security, housing, healthcare, better infrastructure, being able to pay bills, etc., like most people anywhere. Because the U.S., through the governments it supports, works against a majority of them in this area, that is the reason that some poor, disenfranchised people (youth especially) turn to the fundamentalists who still want to talk about the Crusades.
Because Brazil, for example, doesn't support these governments, not even backwards fundamentalists want to attack it, nor would they the U.S. if it would mind its own business like any true libertarian would advocate. Here is a libertarian website...
lewrockwell.com
... see if you can find on it any avocation of the big government imperialism & support for repressive governments abroad that you have repeatedly endorsed, & then tell me again how much of a libertarian you are.
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Every part of this country is sacred to my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove has been hallowed by some fond memory or some sad experience of my tribe.
Even the rocks... as they swelter in the sun along the silent seashore in solemn grandeur thrill with memories of past events... and the very dust under your feet responds more lovingly to our footsteps than to yours, because it is the ashes of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch, for the soil is rich with the life of our kindred.
And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among white men shall have become a myth, these shores shall swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe.
- Chief Seattle
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
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EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
As such, I never said what you are accusing me of saying. What I said was that these backward fundamentalist ideologies are encouraged by foreign occupation & support of dictatorships. This is not only my opinion, but also the firsthand knowledge of every (moderate, striving for modernity & democracy) Muslim that I have talked to.
I just got your rebuttle. Where do you live that you have contact with a large community of Muslims who support moderate democracy?
I just so happens that I have been to many places in the world to even list here because of my military service, and I have not witnessed the same moderation. It's easy for you to just make this claim, but to back it up with historical facts, or facts on the ground in current Muslim countries is impossible. I have been in their countries. I know what it's like there. I have seen first hand that this tolerance, and moderation you speak of is a lie. Look at the official government stances of these muslims regimes before you come and argue with people about their "Moderation" next time.
Tell me that the maority of Muslim controlled governments in this world we live in support religious freedom. Tell me that Muslim controlled governments allow freedom of speach. Tell me that the majority of Mulim countries in this world do not have an extremely high number of fanatic religious fundamentalist who supress religious freedom through violent action.
Tell me all those things, and I will call you a liar. Not only will I call you liar, I will back it up with facts. History, and current events show indisputably that the moderation that your talking about doesn't exist.
Now let's look at the West (The United States, and our allies. Nato). I fought along side people of all different ethnicities, of all different religions, of many different Nationalities. I fought next to black men, and whites, hispanics, and women. We were all paid the same, and givin the same oppurtunities. Although I didn't fight along side any arabs, and only one muslim ever(big suprise huh). We have Mosques on our land. I'm a third generation American of Mexican, and Italian descent. I have a Hispanic last name, and this country made me richer then I could have ever imagined. They paid for my college, gave me a career, they don't persecute me for my religious relief. My children will grow up knowing that everyone has the right to believe in, and worship a higher power however they see fit. Again I'm hispanic, I live in America, and I'm rich. So much for your view of America being racist huh? Oh yea, and we have a black president don't we? Yea that's right we do!!
Again, let's look at muslim countries. Women supressed, Gays persecuted, no liquor, no bacon, no religious freedom. If you have proof that this is wrong, and I'm telling lies then prove it. So much for your moderate view of Islam.
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
Can you chronicle for me Muslim militant attacks within America prior to WWII or prior to excessive U.S. meddling in their societies (which in Iran & Iraq included successfully subverting popular, secular governments that were seen as a threat to Western oil interests?)
I know all about our evil doings in Iraq, and Iran that happened before I was even born, but what is your point? It's not like this all started at that time. Also, are you sure that there was a popular secular governments in Iraq before? Can you prove it?
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
Brazil is energy independent. If the U.S. had also pursued energy independence post-WWII instead of meddling in other peoples' affairs halfway around the world to obtain energy favorably, then the list of Muslim militant attacks within the U.S. would be the same length as it is for Brazil.
I take it your Brazilian then? If your not you should move there. Islamic extremist across the bored have Ideoligical differences with the west that are as instumental, if not more, to the current conflict then oil. You are trying to make this all about oil. That's not true. Oil plays a role no doubt, but it's not the only aspect of this conflict
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
If you want to be backwards like a Muslim fundamentalist & start going back hundreds of years, then you are wasting your time. Both Muslims & Christians have historically committed
Edited by Simplicitry (11/07/09 08:01 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Lew Rockwell is an anti-semitic punk. Always has been.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11385254 - 11/04/09 02:56 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Here in America I'm a rich hispanic that served with a multi ethnic, multi religous military force. Not so racist really?
Islam does not allow the same freedom. If I'm lying prove it!
I'm not sure why you're comparing a country to a religion. Not exactly apples to apples.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11385283 - 11/04/09 03:00 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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That wasn't me.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11385290 - 11/04/09 03:00 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Sorry about that. Usually I'm pretty good with the quick reply.
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strain666
dulcetdkay
Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 864
Loc: Gulf Coast US
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11387394 - 11/04/09 07:28 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
Quote:
Simplicitry said:
I support U.S. alliance with Israel. Islamic Fascist don't respect my way of life, and I guess the way I see it the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Make any sense, or do you completely disagree.
Oh yea, and if you think that the terrorist, and Hamas, and Hezbollah will just put there guns down, and hug the U.S. if we change our policy toward Israel then I have to disagree with you.
do you really know that "Islamic Fascist don't respect my way of life?" Or do you believe that because it's what's repeated most often in the media?
you don't think that the discontent Arab extremists have has anything to do with the USA's part in world war one and two, and the re-creation of Israel?
If the USA stopped supporting Israel and took a negative approach to it i GUARANTEE a lot of "terrorists" would rejoice the US. though of course it won't erase the past.
on the topic of "Islamic Fascist don't respect my way of life" I'd like to point out here that the USA is largely christian, and as such follows the teachings of Jesus. Muslims accept Jesus as well as other people "of the book" including Jews.
Jewish scripture on the other hand, condemns non-Jews (gentiles) to be of lower racial status, and worth less than a Jew, and that it's okay to abuse non-Jews.
The Jews also had Jesus killed.
why does a supposedly christian nation support another nation who believes Jesus was shit, and a nation who supports the ones who had him killed?
This is an interesting question. I have a similar one:
Why is there a police department near San Antonio, TX that has a six pointed star on the face of their building? I was under the impression that both Texas and US had a 5 pointed star. The world may never know!!
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Support gene pool cleanliness;
end it.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11387453 - 11/04/09 07:33 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
Here in America I'm a rich hispanic that served with a multi ethnic, multi religous military force. Not so racist really?
Islam does not allow the same freedom. If I'm lying prove it!
I'm not sure why you're comparing a country to a religion. Not exactly apples to apples.
Most of the regimes that are in discussion are theocratic. Therefore Islam is not just the religion of my enemy it is also the Government
Also on a similiar note. You said to this to me earlier.
Quote:
Redstorm said:
I hope you fought in Afghanistan and not Iraq. Otherwise, this statement makes no sense.
I actually fought on both fronts, and I disagree with your above statment. These fundamentalist are funded from, and operate in many Muslim countries, in this way the hatred of my enemy toward my culture transends the borders of their countries. This is not conventional warfare. The enemy doesn't have a specific country, or a flag that they fight under, so in my opinioin it's all fair game.
America shouldn't have started Nation building over there. We should have bombed Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Afganistan, and then went on about our business. Not one American boot should have touch down in these countries. We should have leveled their cities, and went on about our business until the next time these regimes needed a reminder.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Shins
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I think that if the USA had never helped Britain and France during WW1 and thereafter little of the Muslim hate towards it would exist today.
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Truth - Love - Courage
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Shins
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11391715 - 11/05/09 02:24 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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120 years after the revolutionary war the US goes soft and Britain/France drags it back into a whole mess of shit.
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Truth - Love - Courage
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Shins
Fun guy
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11391869 - 11/05/09 02:51 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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If the USA never helped in ww1, Hitler would likely have not happened either.
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Truth - Love - Courage
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Chespirito
Stranger
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11392180 - 11/05/09 03:39 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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And if the world had only just let Hitler take it over than WW2 never would have happened
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
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EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
Both Muslims & Christians have historically committed atrocities & waged aggression against each other. Most Muslims couldn't care less about that now. They care about job security, housing, healthcare, better infrastructure, being able to pay bills, etc., like most people anywhere. Because the U.S., through the governments it supports, works against a majority of them in this area, that is the reason that some poor, disenfranchised people (youth especially) turn to the fundamentalists who still want to talk about the Crusades.
I'm sorry but actions from Islam just don't support this conclusion that you've made. The Facts support something quite different.
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
Because Brazil, for example, doesn't support these governments, not even backwards fundamentalists want to attack it, nor would they the U.S. if it would mind its own business like any true libertarian would advocate. Here is a libertarian website...
lewrockwell.com
... see if you can find on it any avocation of the big government imperialism & support for repressive governments abroad that you have repeatedly endorsed, & then tell me again how much of a libertarian you are.
Just because Brazil has nothing to do with this conflict doesn't mean anything. This has been you most adamant arguement, but the only problem is it's not relevant to the conversation.
"The Muslims weren't in the wrong in Bosnia Herzegovena"
"Why?"
"Because they weren't bombing the Brazilians."
That is about how relevant your most adament arguement (not your best arguement, but the one that you've stressed the most) is to the conversation we are having.
Yes I admit that Brazil has nothing to do with what were talking about, but what is the point.
It would be like me saying that America is not in the wrong in our dipute with the Arabs because we are not bombing Brazil. I would never make such a stupid arguement becaus Brazil has nothing to with it.
Hell I could make a long list of countries that the U.S. isn't bombing, but again the only problem is that it wouldn't have anything to do with the subject we are discussing. I could even make you a long list of countries that the U.S. is not only not hostile toward, but that we protect, or make alot of money for, but again the only problem is that it has noting to do with Arab/Western Conflict.
And I am very much a Libritarian. The people that I've killed in this conflict had it coming. I was minding my own business until my hand was forced by the death of my country men.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Simplicitry
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Chespirito]
#11392490 - 11/05/09 04:24 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
I think that if the USA had never helped Britain and France during WW1 and thereafter little of the Muslim hate towards it would exist today.
Quote:
Shins said:
If the USA never helped in ww1, Hitler would likely have not happened either.
Quote:
Chespirito said:
And if the world had only just let Hitler take it over than WW2 never would have happened
We get it, your an anti-American, anti-Semite who wants to blame the U.S. for everything that's going on the world.
You saying that you think the muslim world would not be hostile if we wouldn't have helped Britian, and France during WW1 changes exactly what about the current situation?
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
Edited by Simplicitry (11/05/09 04:27 PM)
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Shins
Fun guy
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it changes nothing about today anyways, but i believe; like in the twelve step program for recovery, that the first step is admitting your own mistakes.
before you call me anti-semite, realize that most jews are converts and aren't actually semitic. i'm just about as anti-muslim and anti-christian as i am anti-semite.
might as well just call me anti-Abrahamic, it's a consequence of being pro-science.
as far as anti-american, i like the founding ideas of america, but i'm not really pleased with what it is becoming.
If we hadn't helped Britain, France Israel etc. i think that Muslims would have less reason to attack. a big part of muslum hate towards america is in how it supported those countries and their intrusion through the last century+, and how it has used to situation to for example; exploit oil reserves.
both sides are wrong.
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Truth - Love - Courage
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Shins
Fun guy
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it changes nothing about today anyways, but i believe; like in the twelve step program for recovery, that the first step is admitting your own mistakes.
before you call me anti-semite, realize that most jews are converts and aren't actually semitic. i'm just about as anti-muslim and anti-christian as i am anti-semite.
might as well just call me anti-Abrahamic, it's a consequence of being pro-science.
as far as anti-american, i like the founding ideas of america, but i'm not really pleased with what it is becoming.
If we hadn't helped Britain, France Israel etc. i think that Muslims would have less reason to attack. a big part of muslum hate towards america is in how it supported those countries and their intrusion through the last century+, and how it has used to situation to for example; exploit oil reserves.
both sides are wrong.
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Truth - Love - Courage
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11398837 - 11/06/09 01:41 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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We buy the oil from the morons. You might as well say they exploit our money reserves. It would be equally stupid.
Most Jews are converts? Link?
There is no reason to believe that assisting the Shah to overthrow the soviet puppet was a mistake. There is plenty of reason to believe that failing to respond with the appropriate eradication of the mullahs after their invasion of the US was.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11398905 - 11/06/09 01:49 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
it changes nothing about today anyways, but i believe; like in the twelve step program for recovery, that the first step is admitting your own mistakes.
Well at least you can admit it doesn't change anything.
If you've even read any of my posts, then you would know that I've been saying that the west HAS committed atrosities.
I haven't been the one on this thread trying to immunize one side, and demonize the other. It has been you, and the people that are arguing on your side that have tried to do this over, and over again. You want to demonize the U.S. for it's support of Israel, and our wrong doings toward the Muslim world. At the same time you try to paint a fictious image of a moderate Islam that embraces western culture, and choose to forget the long, and well documented history of agressions that the Muslim world has carried out against western interests.
This is not an issue of right, and wrong. Things are not that black in white in the real world. Bolth sides have so much blood and dirt all over their hands that it's commical to see you, and your group of lefties trying to immunize one side of their wrong doing.
And if you think that admitting your wrong means cowaring to hostile enemy, then all I have to say is I am thankful there are people on my side who have more courage then you.
Quote:
Shins said:
before you call me anti-semite, realize that most jews are converts and aren't actually semitic. i'm just about as anti-muslim and anti-christian as i am anti-semite.
might as well just call me anti-Abrahamic, it's a consequence of being pro-science.
Looking at your above statement I realized you just completely FLIP-FLOPPED. Let me show you
Earlier you said.
Quote:
Shins said:
I'm not muslim, christian or jewish, but i believe some things from each religion as well as others.
Maybe you should pick a stance and stick to it. Do you just make stuff up?
Quote:
Shins said:
as far as anti-american, i like the founding ideas of america, but i'm not really pleased with what it is becoming.
Guess what Americans don't give a fuck
Quote:
Shins said:
If we hadn't helped Britain, France Israel etc. i think that Muslims would have less reason to attack. a big part of muslum hate towards america is in how it supported those countries and their intrusion through the last century+, and how it has used to situation to for example; exploit oil reserves.
That is ground breaking information. Did you just figure that out?
The U.S. has participated in many things that are horrific, and unacceptable against the Muslim world. But if you think that means that we should complie with demands of people when they use mass murder as a means of pressuring you to complie, then you are more unintellegent then what you have already made yourself sound. If you think the Jihadis are just going to stop there fight if we change our policy then you are even less intellent then that
Quote:
Shins said:
both sides are wrong.
This is what I've been saying all along, but it doesn't mean that I'm not going to look out for the interest of my people, and my country.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
Edited by Simplicitry (11/07/09 05:47 AM)
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
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I would also like to point out one more thing about your opinion that the U.S. is responsible for this conflict, and your justification of our enemies violent acts.
What about all the other Jihadi battle fields that have nothing to do with the U.S.
Lets see how hard it is to find Muslim/Non-Muslim conflicts that don't have anything to do with the U.S.
Bosnia-Herzegovena
Chechnya
Kashmir
That just off the top of my head, and it wasn't so hard. These countries do not have ties with Israel.
You can just chose to ignore the fact that the culture of eastern Islam is extremist, violent, and at war with almost all people of differing religious, and political beliefs that they have to co-exist with or share a border with. But you can't deny that there are conflicts going on between this culture, and other cultures that have nothing to do with the U.S.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
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I'm going to quote one of my previous post because I would like to elaborate something related that I forgot to mention.
Simplicitry said:Quote:
Now let's look at the West (The United States, and our allies. Nato). I fought along side people of all different ethnicities, of all different religions, of many different Nationalities. I fought next to black men, and whites, hispanics, and women. We were all paid the same, and givin the same oppurtunities. Although I didn't fight along side any arabs, and only one muslim ever(big suprise huh). We have Mosques on our land. I'm a third generation American of Mexican, and Italian descent. I have a Hispanic last name, and this country made me richer then I could have ever imagined. They paid for my college, gave me a career, they don't persecute me for my religious relief. My children will grow up knowing that everyone has the right to believe in, and worship a higher power however they see fit. Again I'm hispanic, I live in America, and I'm rich. So much for your view of America being racist huh? Oh yea, and we have a black president don't we? Yea that's right we do!!
I forgot to mention that they paid for my sister to college as well.
She isn't De Facto owned by her husband.
Her testimony has the same value in a court of law as any male.
She would not be stoned to death if she were raped.
Say the same thing about a these Islamic regimes, and guess what? Your a liar.
I don't care to change the ass backwards way that these people treat one another, or govern themselves. It's none of my business how they treat one another. It's just that it doesn't fit your fictious version of Islam.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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GI_Luvmoney
Vote Republican!
Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 939
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Secret Mission Rescues Yemen's Jews
MONSEY, N.Y. -- In his new suburban American home, Shaker Yakub, a Yemeni Jew, folded a large scarf in half, wrapped it around his head and tucked in his spiraling side curls. "This is how I passed for a Muslim," said the 59-year-old father of seven, improvising a turban that hid his black skullcap.
The ploy enabled Mr. Yakub and half a dozen members of his family to slip undetected out of their native town of Raida, Yemen, and travel to the capital 50 miles to the south. There, they met U.S. State Department officials conducting a clandestine operation to bring some of Yemen's last remaining Jews to America to escape rising anti-Semitic violence in his country.
In all, about 60 Yemeni Jews have resettled in the U.S. since July; officials say another 100 could still come. There were an estimated 350 in Yemen before the operation began. Some of the remainder may go to Israel and some will stay behind, most in a government enclave.
The secret evacuation of the Yemeni Jews -- considered by historians to be one of the oldest of the Jewish diaspora communities -- is a sign of America's growing concern about this Arabian Peninsula land of 23 million.
The operation followed a year of mounting harassment, and was plotted with Jewish relief groups while Washington was signaling alarm about Yemen. In July, Gen. David Petraeus was dispatched to Yemen to encourage President Ali Abdullah Saleh to be more aggressive against al-Qaeda terrorists in the country. Last month, President Barack Obama wrote in a letter to President Saleh that Yemen's security is vital to the region and the U.S.
Yemen was overshadowed in recent years by bigger trouble spots such as Afghanistan. But it has re-emerged on Washington's radar as a potential source of regional instability and a haven for terrorists.
The impoverished nation is struggling with a Shiite revolt in the north, a secessionist movement in the south, and growing militancy among al-Qaeda sympathizers, raising concern about the government's ability to control its territory. Analysts believe al-Qaeda operatives are making alliances with local tribes that could enable it to establish a stronghold in Yemen, as it did in Afghanistan prior to the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.
The State Department took something of a risk in removing the Yemenis to the U.S., as it might be criticized for favoritism at a time when refugees elsewhere are clamoring for haven. The U.S. calculated the operation would serve both a humanitarian and a geopolitical purpose. In addition to rescuing a group threatened because of its religion, Washington was seeking to prevent an international embarrassment for an embattled Arab ally.
President Saleh has been trying to protect the Jews, but his inability to quell the rebellion in the country's north made it less likely he could do so, prompting the U.S. to step in. The alternative -- risking broader attacks on the Jews -- could well have undermined the Obama administration's efforts to rally support for President Saleh in the U.S. and abroad.
"If we had not done anything, we feared there would be bloodshed," says Gregg Rickman, former State Department Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism.
Mr. Yakub says the operation saved his family from intimidation that had made life in Yemen unbearable. Violence toward the country's small remaining Jewish community began to intensify last year, when one of its most prominent members was gunned down outside his house. But the mission also hastens the demise of one of the oldest remaining Jewish communities in the Arab world.
Jews are believed to have reached what is now Yemen more than 2,500 years ago as traders for King Solomon. They survived -- and at times thrived -- over centuries of change, including the spread of Islam across the Arabian Peninsula.
"They were one of the oldest exiled groups out of Israel," says Hayim Tawil, a Yeshiva University professor who is an expert on Yemeni Jewry. "This is the end of the Jewish Diaspora of Yemen. That's it."
Centuries of near total isolation make Yemeni Jews a living link with the ancient world.
Many can recite passages of the Torah by heart and read Hebrew, but can't read their native tongue of Arabic. They live in stone houses, often without running water or electricity. One Yemeni woman showed up at the airport expecting to board her flight with a live chicken.
Through the centuries, the Jews earned a living as merchants, craftsmen and silversmiths known for designing djanbias, traditional daggers that only Muslims are allowed to carry. Jewish musical compositions became part of Yemeni culture, played at Muslim weddings and festivals.
"Yemeni Jews have always been a part of Yemeni society and have lived side by side in peace with their Muslim brothers and sisters," said a spokeswoman for the Embassy of Yemen in Washington.
In 1947, on the eve of the birth of the state of Israel, protests in the port city of Aden resulted in the death of dozens of Jews and the destruction of their homes and shops. In 1949 and 1950 about 49,000 people -- the majority of Yemen's Jewish community -- were airlifted to Israel in "Operation Magic Carpet."
About 2,000 Jews stayed in Yemen. Some trickled out until 1962, when civil war erupted. After that, they were stuck there. "For three decades, there were no telephone calls, no letters, no traveling overseas. The fact there were Jews in Yemen was barely known outside Israel," says Prof. Tawil.
After alienating the West by backing Iraq during the first Gulf War, Yemen sought a rapprochement with Washington. In 1991, it declared freedom of travel for Jews. An effort led by Prof. Tawil and brokered by the U.S. government culminated in the departure of about 1,200 Jews, mainly to Israel, in the early 1990s. Arthur Hughes, American ambassador to Yemen at the time, recalls that those who chose to remain insisted: "This is where we have been for centuries, we are okay; we're not going anywhere."
The few hundred Jews who stayed behind were concentrated in two enclaves: Saada, a remote area in Yemen's northern highlands, and Raida to the south.
In 2004, unrest erupted in Saada. The government says at least 50,000 people have been displaced by fighting between its troops and the Houthis, a Shiite rebel group.
Animosity against Jews intensified. Notes nailed to the homes of Jews accused them of working for Israel and corrupting Muslim morals. "Jews were specifically targeted by Houthi rebels," says a spokeswoman for the Yemeni embassy in Washington.
In January 2007, Houthi leaders threatened Jewish families in Saada. "We warn you to leave the area immediately... [W]e give you a period of 10 days, or you will regret it," read a letter signed by a Houthi representative cited in a Reuters article.
Virtually the entire Jewish community in the area, about 60 people, fled to the capital. Since then, they have been receiving food stipends and cash assistance from the government while living in state-owned apartments in a guarded enclave, says the Yemeni embassy in Washington.
President Saleh, a Shiite, has been eager to demonstrate goodwill toward the Jews. On the Passover holiday, he invited TV crews to videotape families in the government complex as they feasted on lamb he had ordered.
Raida became the last redoubt of Yemeni Jews, who continued to lead a simple life there alongside Muslims.
Ancient stone homes dot the town. Electricity is erratic; oil lamps are common. Water arrives via truck. Most homes lack a TV or a refrigerator. The cell phone is the only common modern device. Some families receive financial aid from Hasidic Jewish groups in Brooklyn and London, which has enabled them to buy cars.
Typically, the Jewish men are blacksmiths, shoe repairmen or carpenters. They sometimes barter, trading milk and cow dung for grass to feed their livestock. In public, the men stand out for their long side curls, customarily worn by observant Jewish men. Jewish women, who often marry by 16, rarely leave home. When they do, like Muslim women, only their eyes are exposed.
For fun, children play with pebbles and chase family chickens around the house. At Jewish religious schools, they sit at wooden tables to study Torah and Hebrew. They aren't taught subjects like science, or to read and write in Arabic, Yemen's official language.
"I showed them a multiplication table and I don't think they had ever seen one," says Stefan Kirschner, a New York University graduate student who visited Raida in August 2008 and says he sat in a few classes.
In September 2008, militants detonated a car bomb outside the U.S. Embassy in Yemen's capital of Sanaa, killing 16 people. The attack raised fresh concern about Muslim extremism and the government's stability.
Then, on Dec. 11, a lone gunman shot dead Moshe Nahari, a father of nine and well-known figure in Raida's Jewish community. Abdul-Aziz al-Abdi, a retired Air Force pilot, pumped several bullets into Mr. Nahari after the Hebrew teacher dismissed his demands that he convert to Islam. In June, the shooter was sentenced to death.
Israel's offensive against Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip later in December sparked protests in Yemen. Jewish men and children in Raida were heckled, beaten and pelted with rocks. A grenade was hurled at the house of Said Ben Yisrael, who led one of three makeshift synagogues in Raida, and landed in the courtyard of his two-story home.
From the safety of his new home in suburban New York, Mr. Yakub recounted his last months in Yemen. Rocks shattered the windows of his house and car. Except for emergencies and provisions, Jews began to avoid leaving home. When they did, Mr. Yakub and other Jews took to disguising themselves as Muslims.
"This was no way to live," he said, seated at the head of a long table surrounded by his wife and children.
Salem Suleiman, who also arrived recently in New York, bears scars from rocks that hit his head. "They throw stones at us. They curse us. They want to kill us," he said. "I didn't leave my house for two months."
New York had a community of about 2,000 Yemeni Jews. Yair Yaish, who heads the Yemenite Jewish Federation of America, says he was barraged with "desperate calls from the community here saying we have to do something to get our families out."
The U.S. Ambassador to Yemen urged Yemeni ministers to facilitate the departure. After initial reluctance -- the government preferred to give the Jews safe haven in the capital city -- Yemen agreed to issue exit permits and passports.
"It was the embassy's view, and the Department concurred, that because of their vulnerability, we should consider them for resettlement," says a spokeswoman for the State Department's Bureau of Population, Refugees and Migration.
Jewish Federations of North America raised $750,000 to help the effort. Orthodox groups also pledged to pitch in. The Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society was tasked with their resettlement.
Word reached Jews in Raida that there was an American plan afoot to rescue them.
The first applicants signed up at the U.S. Embassy in January. To avoid attracting attention, families convoyed to Sanaa in taxis at dawn.
Later they traveled to a hotel for interviews with U.S. officials. To establish a case for refugee status, they had to demonstrate a well-founded fear of persecution. For many of the women, it was the first time speaking with anyone outside the home.
As news spread of their imminent departure, many families reported trouble selling property. Potential buyers offered low prices or refused to bid, thinking they could get the property free after it was deserted.
"All they have is this little house worth $15,000," says Yochi Sabari, a Jew from Raida who lives in New York and has relatives in Yemen. "They can't leave until they sell it."
About three weeks before their travel date, the U.S. embassy contacted the first four families cleared for travel. On July 7, their 17 members traveled to the airport in Sanaa and boarded a Frankfurt-bound flight.
When the Yemenis landed in New York the next day, Jewish organization officials there to greet them spotted several women cloaked in black robes, only their eyes exposed.
"The Jewish women were the ones in burqas," says Gideon Aronoff, president of the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society. He says he was "initially shocked."
Several families missed the two flights offered to them by the U.S. and, therefore, forfeited their chance to move here. Family members say they are having trouble disposing of assets. An undisclosed number of people have reached Israel, including the family of Mr. Ben Yisrael, whose home was the target of a grenade, and the family of Mr. Nahari, who was slain in December 2008. In the U.S., the Yemeni refugees are being settled in Monsey, a suburban enclave of ultraorthodox Jews, lined with strip malls that sell black coats and wide-rimmed hats worn by Hasidic men.
The Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society's network established a Monsey office, where case managers arrange housing and disburse food stamps, cash and other refugee benefits to the Yemeni arrivals. Many of the adults, caseworkers say, aren't yet capable of budgeting, following a schedule or sitting still in a structured classroom to learn English.
On a recent morning, Mr. Suleiman, a 36-year-old father of three, retrieved an alarm clock that he received with his furnished apartment.
"I still don't know how to use this," he said. "The children have been playing with it."
Write to Miriam Jordan at miriam.jordan@wsj.com
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125693376195819343.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_RIGHTTopCarousel
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11403819 - 11/07/09 09:49 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
We buy the oil from the morons. You might as well say they exploit our money reserves. It would be equally stupid.
Most Jews are converts? Link?
There is no reason to believe that assisting the Shah to overthrow the soviet puppet was a mistake. There is plenty of reason to believe that failing to respond with the appropriate eradication of the mullahs after their invasion of the US was.
Very well said
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,450
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Quote:
And I am very much a Libritarian. The people that I've killed in this conflict had it coming. I was minding my own business until my hand was forced by the death of my country men.
Are you talking about Afghanistan, Iraq, or both? A Zogby poll from 2006 has said that 85% of the U.S. military in Iraq thought that they were there to "avenge 9-11." It wouldn't surprise me if you were in the majority here.
P.S. In Iraq, middle of the 20th century, U.S. & British intelligence helped the Ba'ath Party overthrow a (secular) government that itself came to power overthrowing the monarchy that the British had set up after the acquired influence there via the defeat of the Ottoman's in WWI... the government had offended Western oil interests by nationalizing the industry, to name the most significant reason.
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Every part of this country is sacred to my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove has been hallowed by some fond memory or some sad experience of my tribe.
Even the rocks... as they swelter in the sun along the silent seashore in solemn grandeur thrill with memories of past events... and the very dust under your feet responds more lovingly to our footsteps than to yours, because it is the ashes of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch, for the soil is rich with the life of our kindred.
And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among white men shall have become a myth, these shores shall swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe.
- Chief Seattle
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
And I am very much a Libritarian. The people that I've killed in this conflict had it coming. I was minding my own business until my hand was forced by the death of my country men.
Are you talking about Afghanistan, Iraq, or both? A Zogby poll from 2006 has said that 85% of the U.S. military in Iraq thought that they were there to "avenge 9-11." It wouldn't surprise me if you were in the majority here.
Link?Quote:
P.S. In Iraq, middle of the 20th century, U.S. & British intelligence helped the Ba'ath Party overthrow a (secular) government that itself came to power overthrowing the monarchy that the British had set up after the acquired influence there via the defeat of the Ottoman's in WWI... the government had offended Western oil interests by nationalizing the industry, to name the most significant reason.
Mossadegh came to power as a Soviet puppet. You are so charmingly naive sometimes. By the way, the Ba'athist were also secular. What that has to do with anything is mysterious.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11405055 - 11/07/09 12:38 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mossadegh came to power as a Soviet puppet.
You or Churchhill saying so doesn't make it true. Back up this assertion. He was not part of the small pro-Soviet Tudeh Party.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Are you talking about Afghanistan, Iraq, or both? A Zogby poll from 2006 has said that 85% of the U.S. military in Iraq thought that they were there to "avenge 9-11." It wouldn't surprise me if you were in the majority here.
I fought on both fronts. While I understand what anle your working above, it's not going to work on me. I am more educated then that. I know that you would get into how Iraq never attacked my homeland. But I completely disagree with this logic because the Islamic enemy operates, and is supported by many Muslim Countries. In this way the conflict transends the borders of the enemies countries. I personally fough Al-Quidea on Iraqi soil. My enemy was definitly present while I was there. The Islamic enemy does not unite under a flag of a common country, They come from many different countries. So, this is not a convevtional war in that sense, and the same rules don't apply.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
P.S. In Iraq, middle of the 20th century, U.S. & British intelligence helped the Ba'ath Party overthrow a (secular) government that itself came to power overthrowing the monarchy that the British had set up after the acquired influence there via the defeat of the Ottoman's in WWI... the government had offended Western oil interests by nationalizing the industry, to name the most significant reason.
It's not my fault that they can't keep control of their governments. What about their responsibility to take care of their own problems. You seem to conveiniently forget that it is their own leaders corruption, and greed that puts them in a place to be taken advantage of foriegn influences.
You see, people like you want to go around and blame the U.S. for all of the problem going on in OTHER PEOPLES countries.
It's like a homeless person who complains about how hard life is, and how they are mistreated by the sytem. They always have 101 crutches that they use for their own faults. Racism, Elitism, it's white people holding them down. When it's some ass backwards white hill billy he uses a different crutch (since he can't blame white people). To them it's affirmitive action, Jews, socialists.
When in reality almost all the time it's the fact that the person doesn't have what it takes to make something better for themselves.
Muslims blaming other people for the downfalls will get them nothing. They are the only ones that can change it from the inside.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
Edited by Simplicitry (11/07/09 12:41 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11405180 - 11/07/09 01:00 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
Mossadegh came to power as a Soviet puppet.
You or Churchhill saying so doesn't make it true. Back up this assertion. He was not part of the small pro-Soviet Tudeh Party.
No. That doesn't mean he wasn't a Soviet puppet. Nor did the CIA install the shah.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Posts: 44,162
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11405244 - 11/07/09 01:13 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Support your claim.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11405293 - 11/07/09 01:23 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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With what? British and American charges? Would you like a KGB dossier? In 1950 Iran you were either a Soviet tool or an Anglo tool.
Or maybe he was a puppet of the Shah, who appointed him prime minister?
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11405364 - 11/07/09 01:34 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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So essentially you can't back up your claim.
Quote:
British and American charges?
Which wouldn't be biased by the fact that they wanted him out so they could keep their oil company?
Quote:
In 1950 Iran you were either a Soviet tool or an Anglo tool.
Again, this another is a unsubstantiated claim.
Quote:
Or maybe he was a puppet of the Shah, who appointed him prime minister?
Anyone who knows anything about the situation back then knows he was not a puppet of the Shah. The Shah was terrified of him and his popularity.
Just admit that you have no evidence whatsoever that this claim you love to repeat has any merit and we can call it a day.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11405604 - 11/07/09 02:11 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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The Shah appointed him Prime Minister.
Just who do you feel would be qualified to make that claim?
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11405628 - 11/07/09 02:17 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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No shit the Shah appointed him. Mossadegh was so popular that it would have been insane not to.
Qualified has nothing to do with it. It's not about who is saying it, but that they can back what they say up.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11405633 - 11/07/09 02:18 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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When it comes to the issue of us interferring with Iran back then, I'm not goint to try, and make excueses for what we did.
We did what we did, and it can't be changed now. It definily did revolve around the Cold War though, and trying to minimize Soviet influence over the oil rich middle east.
You do accept that much of the history don't you?
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11405651 - 11/07/09 02:21 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
No shit the Shah appointed him. Mossadegh was so popular that it would have been insane not to.
Qualified has nothing to do with it. It's not about who is saying it, but that they can back what they say up.
So you want something direct from the KGB archives, then? I'm serious. What would satisfy you in this area? If not Churchill, then who?
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
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Last seen: 6 months, 12 days
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That was the reasoning that the President accepted for it. That much is true. I do think, however, that we got hoodwinked by the British into doing it so they could get their oil company back.
It also is true that the Soviets badly wanted Iran and its oil. It's questionable at best, though, that Mossadegh wanted to be or was a Soviet lackey.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 6 months, 12 days
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11405675 - 11/07/09 02:24 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Redstorm said:
No shit the Shah appointed him. Mossadegh was so popular that it would have been insane not to.
Qualified has nothing to do with it. It's not about who is saying it, but that they can back what they say up.
So you want something direct from the KGB archives, then? I'm serious. What would satisfy you in this area? If not Churchill, then who?
You have to be out of your goddamn mind if you think Churchill was a credible source when there were clear ulterior motives for getting Mossadegh out. You can't possibly be this naive.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11405710 - 11/07/09 02:28 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
That was the reasoning that the President accepted for it. That much is true. I do think, however, that we got hoodwinked by the British into doing it so they could get their oil company back.
It also is true that the Soviets badly wanted Iran and its oil. It's questionable at best, though, that Mossadegh wanted to be or was a Soviet lackey.
I'm not being a smart ass when I say this, but do you, or don't you believe that to be part of the actual history? Or do you believe that the U.S. did for an English oil company?
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11405714 - 11/07/09 02:29 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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I thought the US did that?
There is another unpleasant point for all the Shah haters. He had a rather large amount of support among the Iranian people. The CIA did not install the Shah in some government takeover. They nudged. There was a lot of support there already to exploit.
The original point I made was about someone asserting that helping the Shah was a foreign policy mistake by the US. That case is impossible to make.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
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I think the United States government believed there was a credible threat of Iran falling to communism.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11405738 - 11/07/09 02:34 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
I think the United States government believed there was a credible threat of Iran falling to communism.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
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I guess you wouldn't want to adress the question I asked you about Muslim conflicts with Non-Muslims that don't have anything to do with America, because that wouldn't fit your agenda. Right?
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,450
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to zappa: Neither Qassam nor Mossedegh were "Soviet puppets;" they were nationalists.
Quote:
I guess you wouldn't want to address the question I asked you about Muslim conflicts with Non-Muslims that don't have anything to do with America, because that wouldn't fit your agenda. Right?
No, not really, & for two reasons:
1. If two backwards groups people are fighting each other across an ocean for reasons that go back hundreds of years, it's not my business. When have any people from a backwards group (whether Muslim or not) from "the Old World" come over to attack a Latin American nation (which, by the way, have majorities that profess to be Christian also)?
2. More importantly, I'm not going to get into extraneous issues with someone whose understanding of the world is as flawed as your is. You said "the enemy" is in Iraq so we had to go there. No shit al-Qaeda came into Iraq (after the invasion) to fight the Americans. You could justify invading any Muslim majority country with that (lack of) logic. Prior to that al-Qaeda was not in Iraq because a) they had virtually no support there (as evidenced by their quick demise when they offended local Sunni customs/tribal authorities) and b) Saddam's government didn't want them there.
--------------------
Every part of this country is sacred to my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove has been hallowed by some fond memory or some sad experience of my tribe.
Even the rocks... as they swelter in the sun along the silent seashore in solemn grandeur thrill with memories of past events... and the very dust under your feet responds more lovingly to our footsteps than to yours, because it is the ashes of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch, for the soil is rich with the life of our kindred.
And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among white men shall have become a myth, these shores shall swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe.
- Chief Seattle
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 6 months, 12 days
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11407729 - 11/07/09 07:37 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Redstorm said:
I think the United States government believed there was a credible threat of Iran falling to communism.
So fucking what? Are you trying to prove a point quoting this? Just because the US thought that Iran could fall to the Soviets doesn't mean he was a Soviet puppet. As you may be well aware of, the Soviets often didn't give two shits about the illusion of legitimacy in the gaining of control of a country.
Plus, just because the US thought so didn't mean they were right. God knows they fuck up enough that they shouldn't escape scrutiny.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11407812 - 11/07/09 07:47 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh I think you are very wrong about the Soviets. It was not by dint of arms or the threat of them that they were contained. Nor was that their only means of control.
I will contend that the era from 1950 to 1985 was a death battle with the Soviet Union. Particularly perilous in the 50's.
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the_conservatarian
Stranger
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
#11408866 - 11/07/09 11:36 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom for the media, open journalism, women's rights, equality of races, multiple viewpoints, minority rights, voting without fear, etc...
Oh sorry, I forget that the current fascists around the world would prefer to eliminate the above inconveniences...
The U.S.A disagrees with disgusting and vile fascism - so they help Israel. Good for them! Those currently aiming to destroy Israel represent a disgusting and vile plague to the Earth.
And that's why the U.S. supports Israel. Any questions?
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
No, not really, & for two reasons:
1. If two backwards groups people are fighting each other across an ocean for reasons that go back hundreds of years, it's not my business. When have any people from a backwards group (whether Muslim or not) from "the Old World" come over to attack a Latin American nation (which, by the way, have majorities that profess to be Christian also)?
Did you think I didn't know that the majority of Latin America is Catholic. Everyone knows that. It's common knowledge. And where do you come from that you can look down at America and call us backwards? If where you come form is so great, why don't you tell us about it, and show pride in where you came from? It's not because you country has an embarrassing track record is it?
This is just a wild guess, but I'll bet your one of those communist loving Latin American men. I'll bet that you have a hard on for Che Guevara, and Fidel Castro. You probably stroke yourself while your looking at pictures of Hugo Chavez.
What qualities does the communism, and socialism of Latin America have that makes you think it is so great. When you look at these leftist Governments there is insane amount of greed, and corruption. They have a horrible record. Their people live in poverty, and are corrupted by an elite. And you know as well as do that the elite that exploit them is not English speaking Americans. It's their own leadership.
I'm an American Hispanic, and America has made me Rich.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
2. More importantly, I'm not going to get into extraneous issues with someone whose understanding of the world is as flawed as your is. You said "the enemy" is in Iraq so we had to go there. No shit al-Qaeda came into Iraq (after the invasion) to fight the Americans. You could justify invading any Muslim majority country with that (lack of) logic. Prior to that al-Qaeda was not in Iraq because a) they had virtually no support there (as evidenced by their quick demise when they offended local Sunni customs/tribal authorities) and b) Saddam's government didn't want them there.
I never said "the enemy was in Iraq so we had to go there." because that is an incorrect statement. What I said was
Quote:
I personally fough Al-Quidea on Iraqi soil. My enemy was definitly present while I was there.
Thats a little different then what you tried to twist my words into. Anyways, I fought Al Queada there.
You have not laid one single conclusive peice of evidence to show that I've said one lie of false statement let alone shown that I have a flawed understanding of the world. You've only shown that you have a differing opinion.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Redstorm]
#11409837 - 11/08/09 06:42 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Plus, just because the US thought so didn't mean they were right. God knows they fuck up enough that they shouldn't escape scrutiny.
When it comes to international conflict it is seldom about right, and wrong. It's usually more about conflicting interests. In wich case the terms right, and wrong don't really apply.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
Edited by Simplicitry (11/08/09 06:42 AM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,450
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Quote:
And where do you come from that you can look down at America and call us backwards? If where you come form is so great, why don't you tell us about it, and show pride in where you came from? It's not because you country has an embarrassing track record is it?
Actually, I was talking about tribal/ethnic/religious conflicts somewhere in the "Old World" (i.e Asia, Africa, & Europe). That being said, I do think I a significant portion of the U.S. population (namely those who attend Sarah Palin rallies, think that the earth is less than 10,000, & believe Bush II ordered the Iraq invasion because it was the will of their god as Palin once said in an Alaskan church) is backwards.
I come from what is now the United States. As such the existing, arbitrary borders on a map of the Western Hemisphere don't mean anything to me in a personal sense.
Quote:
This is just a wild guess, but I'll bet your one of those communist loving Latin American men. I'll bet that you have a hard on for Che Guevara, and Fidel Castro. You probably stroke yourself while your looking at pictures of Hugo Chavez.
I'm gonna have to quit this thread... the maturity & sophistication of the insults are too much for me to handle. Hey, I bet when Evo Morales, former head of a coca growers union & the 1st fully indigenous head of state in the Americas since colonialism, gave a speech a few years ago in/around the village of Valle Grande to commemorate the 40th anniversary of Ernesto's execution... I bet the tens of thousands of Native people in attendance were wearing traditional attire so that the could inconspicuously masturbate.
P.S. Here's what you said...
Quote:
But I completely disagree with this logic because the Islamic enemy operates, and is supported by many Muslim Countries. In this way the conflict transends the borders of the enemies countries. I personally fough Al-Quidea on Iraqi soil. My enemy was definitly present while I was there. The Islamic enemy does not unite under a flag of a common country, They come from many different countries. So, this is not a convevtional war in that sense, and the same rules don't apply.
... in which you appear to be trying to justify the Iraq invasion by saying that its government was supporting al Qaeda. Then when some people resist the occupation militantly for whatever reason, you paint them with a wide brush as being "the Islamic enemy" as if Ba'athists or Shia militias are equated with al-Qaeda. Yeah, keep telling yourself that it's only ideological al-Qaeda fanatics who would fight against you when you invade a country that didn't have anything to do with 9-11, & that you are justified in killing anyone who resists you, along with the "collateral damage," when you do such.
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Every part of this country is sacred to my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove has been hallowed by some fond memory or some sad experience of my tribe.
Even the rocks... as they swelter in the sun along the silent seashore in solemn grandeur thrill with memories of past events... and the very dust under your feet responds more lovingly to our footsteps than to yours, because it is the ashes of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch, for the soil is rich with the life of our kindred.
And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among white men shall have become a myth, these shores shall swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe.
- Chief Seattle
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,380
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 3 hours, 29 minutes
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A reminder to all that this thread is about US support of Israel. Specifically, to quote the opening post in the thread -
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Why does the USA support Israel's oppressive, racist, elitist regime?
Let's try to reel this thing back in from its current position way out in the weeds, folks.
Phred
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 798
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Actually, I was talking about tribal/ethnic/religious conflicts somewhere in the "Old World" (i.e Asia, Africa, & Europe). That being said, I do think I a significant portion of the U.S. population (namely those who attend Sarah Palin rallies, think that the earth is less than 10,000, & believe Bush II ordered the Iraq invasion because it was the will of their god as Palin once said in an Alaskan church) is backwards.
Fuck Sarah Palin.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
I'm gonna have to quit this thread... the maturity & sophistication of the insults are too much for me to handle. Hey, I bet when Evo Morales, former head of a coca growers union & the 1st fully indigenous head of state in the Americas since colonialism, gave a speech a few years ago in/around the village of Valle Grande to commemorate the 40th anniversary of Ernesto's execution... I bet the tens of thousands of Native people in attendance were wearing traditional attire so that the could inconspicuously masturbate.
You must have no sense of humor. You should lighten up. It's politics. People are going to say things you don't like. Sounds like I hit a nerve though. I'm guessing I hit that pretty much right on the head.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
... in which you appear to be trying to justify the Iraq invasion by saying that its government was supporting al Qaeda. Then when some people resist the occupation militantly for whatever reason, you paint them with a wide brush as being "the Islamic enemy" as if Ba'athists or Shia militias are equated with al-Qaeda. Yeah, keep telling yourself that it's only ideological al-Qaeda fanatics who would fight against you when you invade a country that didn't have anything to do with 9-11, & that you are justified in killing anyone who resists you, along with the "collateral damage," when you do such.
Actually I never tried to justify the invasioin of Iraq. I personally don't agree with us being there (for completely different reasons then you I guarantee). I actually don't agree with the way America is fighting the war at all. It's not that I don't think we should be fighting in a war against these people. I just don't agree with the fashion in wich we are doing it. But, I don't have control over those decisions.
What I said is was that I fought Al Queada on Iraqi soil (that's a true statement). I didn't try to justify anything. Anything extra were words you tried putting in mouth. I speak fine for myself thank you.
Collateral damage is an unfortunate reality.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
Edited by Simplicitry (11/12/09 12:13 PM)
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 17 days
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Shins]
#11412606 - 11/08/09 04:19 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
Why does the USA support Israel's oppressive, racist, elitist regime?
I'd like to know your opinion.
This is important because it's why "the terrorists" don't like the USA, and it ties in to world war one, two, and possibly three.
because AIPAC and many other Israeli-funded lobbying groups here in America have more say than our own people do... that is just one reason.
Israel has got quite a bit of control of America, it is very sad...
we give so many billions to them each year, while Americans here become more jobless and more homeless than ever... it is sad that we are forced to throw more gas into the fire...
alls we can do is spread awareness and resist it the best we can. i hope to help implement some policies someday that will rid us of the parasite that is Israel... i totally support the Jewish people there, i just dont think that we should be giving them near as much money as we are right now, in this economic recession. it is unfair to our own people, and unfair to all the other countries that do not receive near that amount of money from us.
just my 2 cents
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Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness. 
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,193
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 11 minutes, 49 seconds
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: PookztA]
#11412778 - 11/08/09 04:42 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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> Israel has got quite a bit of control of America, it is very sad...
So do many other countries; China for example.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 17 days
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: Seuss]
#11415475 - 11/08/09 10:33 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
> Israel has got quite a bit of control of America, it is very sad...
So do many other countries; China for example.
does China have a huge lobbying group here, like Israel does? AIPAC is huge... within the last 12 months they paid for the trips of 12 or so congressman to Israel to help them see "Israel's side".... more than just lobbying, direct influence on Congress...
does China have that? if so, what organizations are behind that influence?
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Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,193
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 11 minutes, 49 seconds
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Re: US support of Israel [Re: PookztA]
#11416804 - 11/09/09 03:56 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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> does China have a huge lobbying group here
Yes, in the form of US Treasury holdings that they own. Because of these, they have much more sway over the US than some little lobbying group.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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llama farmer
Mushroom Newb
Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 132
Loc: Aus
Last seen: 4 months, 26 days
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Quote:
the_conservatarian said:
Democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom for the media, open journalism, women's rights, equality of races, multiple viewpoints, minority rights, voting without fear, etc...
Oh sorry, I forget that the current fascists around the world would prefer to eliminate the above inconveniences...
The U.S.A disagrees with disgusting and vile fascism - so they help Israel. Good for them! Those currently aiming to destroy Israel represent a disgusting and vile plague to the Earth.
And that's why the U.S. supports Israel. Any questions?
Yes here is one... are you a master of sarcasm or delusion?
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The labourer who tends a garden is perhaps in a truer sense its owner than the listless voluptuary that enjoys its fruits
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the_conservatarian
Stranger
Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 104
Last seen: 2 years, 27 days
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Quote:
llama farmer said:
Quote:
the_conservatarian said:
Democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom for the media, open journalism, women's rights, equality of races, multiple viewpoints, minority rights, voting without fear, etc...
Oh sorry, I forget that the current fascists around the world would prefer to eliminate the above inconveniences...
The U.S.A disagrees with disgusting and vile fascism - so they help Israel. Good for them! Those currently aiming to destroy Israel represent a disgusting and vile plague to the Earth.
And that's why the U.S. supports Israel. Any questions?
Yes here is one... are you a master of sarcasm or delusion?
Heh, a little bit of both! But I like to mix it up with a strong bit of reality as well. =)
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