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 Yrat
Hello
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 1,986
Last seen: 8 hours, 12 minutes
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 Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zorbman]
#11247066 - 10/14/09 03:04 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said:
Another is the "Too Big To Fail" myth. If that were true, would someone tell me why the hell the banks have only gotten bigger since the financial crisis began?
it's unbelievable isn't it? i mean, the excuses for stealing taxpayer money are becoming more and more blatantly obvious, and sheeple just eat it right up.
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"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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 zorbman
Be Prepared
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,475
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Yrat]
#11247233 - 10/14/09 03:29 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yep. They are now completely in people's grills with their absurd lies but the majority of the American people don't want to rock the boat- they are hoping in vain that someone will just come along and fix the Magic Money Machine.
The Big Lie..is a propaganda technique. The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler in his 1925 autobiography Mein Kampf for a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie
The latest lie is that the economy is sending up "green shoots" and we are having a "jobless recovery".
What bullshit.
Ever heard of an eggless omelette or fat-free bacon?
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Men occasionally stumble over the truth but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill
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Yrat
Hello
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 1,986
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zorbman]
#11247287 - 10/14/09 03:41 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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i like the peter schiff line 
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"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Yrat]
#11247305 - 10/14/09 03:44 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said:
but your questions was framed as if it could, which lends me to suggest you think that is possible.
I suppose it's possible, but I suspect individual banks would race to print money.
Quote:
Yrat said:
where did Mr. Al advocate for fiat money?
The question was "Now: given that competition is good for the economy why should a central bank have a monopoly over legal tender???" The answer is is because we use fiat money, and it would be foolish to give control of fiat money to the free market.
Quote:
Yrat said:
it's unbelievable isn't it? i mean, the excuses for stealing taxpayer money are becoming more and more blatantly obvious, and sheeple just eat it right up.
I'm actually opposed to the financial industry bailouts.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
 
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Yrat
Hello
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 1,986
Last seen: 8 hours, 12 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Yrat said:
where did Mr. Al advocate for fiat money?
The question was "Now: given that competition is good for the economy why should a central bank have a monopoly over legal tender???" The answer is is because we use fiat money, and it would be foolish to give control of fiat money to the free market.
the free market would eliminate the use of fiat. there would be a natural return to asset or commodity-backed currency, whether it be gold, silver, copper, lumber, oil, or some combination of them. gold and silver have acted as the currency of the free market for thousands of years. fiat has never accomplished replacing it, no matter how much it is tried.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Yrat said:
it's unbelievable isn't it? i mean, the excuses for stealing taxpayer money are becoming more and more blatantly obvious, and sheeple just eat it right up.
I'm actually opposed to the financial industry bailouts.
good. me too.
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"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,403
Last seen: 1 hour, 58 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Yrat]
#11247511 - 10/14/09 04:23 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said:
the free market would eliminate the use of fiat. there would be a natural return to asset or commodity-backed currency, whether it be gold, silver, copper, lumber, oil, or some combination of them. gold and silver have acted as the currency of the free market for thousands of years. fiat has never accomplished replacing it, no matter how much it is tried.
I don't understand. Fiat money replaced commodity backed currency it in nearly every industrialized nation, hasn't it?
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Yrat
Hello
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 1,986
Last seen: 8 hours, 12 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Yrat said:
the free market would eliminate the use of fiat. there would be a natural return to asset or commodity-backed currency, whether it be gold, silver, copper, lumber, oil, or some combination of them. gold and silver have acted as the currency of the free market for thousands of years. fiat has never accomplished replacing it, no matter how much it is tried.
I don't understand. Fiat money replaced commodity backed currency it in nearly every industrialized nation, hasn't it?
only for 38 years. before then (1971) the US dollar was as good as gold. it was still backed by it. other countries were happy to use the USD as a reserve currency because it literally was "as good as gold." when the backing was axed by nixon in 1971, the countries were left holding fiat paper instead of gold, and that is where we find ourselves today. for some reason, foreign countries continued to buy our fiat dollars as a sort of investment in american productivity, but instead of producing anything, we spent ourselves into debt, like a college kid discovering the power of mommy and daddy's credit card for the first time. the US is insolvent under any rational analysis. how long until the rest of the world comes to its senses?
--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,403
Last seen: 1 hour, 58 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Yrat]
#11247642 - 10/14/09 04:46 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said:
the US is insolvent under any rational analysis. how long until the rest of the world comes to its senses?
We have one hell of a lot more debt than we should. Deficit spending should ONLY happen when the economy needs a boost; NEVER when the economy is good. But I digress.
Here is an interesting graph putting our current debt into perspective. It's still at a level we can overcome; altough I agree it's MUCH higher than it should be.
How We Get Out of the Great Depression II
By Steven Stoft, March 2, 2009
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Yrat
Hello
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 1,986
Last seen: 8 hours, 12 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Yrat said:
the US is insolvent under any rational analysis. how long until the rest of the world comes to its senses?
We have one hell of a lot more debt than we should. Deficit spending should ONLY happen when the economy needs a boost; NEVER when the economy is good. But I digress.
Here is an interesting graph putting our current debt into perspective. It's still at a level we can overcome; altough I agree it's MUCH higher than it should be.
How We Get Out of the Great Depression II
By Steven Stoft, March 2, 2009
that debt was able to be paid off through massive production generated by a HUGE manufacturing industry built up during WWII. today, our biggest export is our debt. we have no production capacity to overcome this situation. it is a different beast altogether.
--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,403
Last seen: 1 hour, 58 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Yrat]
#11250502 - 10/15/09 12:18 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said:
that debt was able to be paid off through massive production generated by a HUGE manufacturing industry built up during WWII. today, our biggest export is our debt. we have no production capacity to overcome this situation. it is a different beast altogether.
With that being the case, all I can say is that I hope stimulus money is used to bring back some of our production capacity.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 22 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11250746 - 10/15/09 01:24 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
No. I'm not that old, you fucker.
Purchasing power is a reasonable measure, no? All this talk about wages and inflation and whatnot being catastrophic is craziness. In the 60s, when I was a child these things were rare:
More than one car per household
Air conditioning
color television
dishwashers
I could go on ad nauseum. Even the poor today have more luxuries than most middle class families had then.
You also need to consider homeostasis vis-a-vis any measurement of prosperity, false, real or imagined. Constantly producing that ridiculous "The dollar has lost 96% of it's value since" nonsense does not facilitate your argument. If the "since" in question was "last Tuesday" you would have a point. But it isn't so you don't.
What part of THIS DAMN PSEUDO- ECONOMIC SYSTEM IS NOT SUSTAINABLE do you not understand.
Like Yrat has mentioned, what's the lifespan of fiat and why is it so damn short???
Sure as technology improves production becomes far more efficient, that is what you are observing. What you aren't looking at is that systemic market corrections are prevented by the inflation of the money supply! If the systemic market corrections are postponed indefinitely the entire fucking economy crashes! How do you not get that?
The prosperity we see is mortgaged with the future. When it's time to pay the piper the medium of exchange is destroyed!
There are serious consequences to inflating the money supply and if you are unwilling to see that you are just as at fault as all the other ostriches!
There is no such thing as a free lunch in economics.
Do you suppose that preventing economic corrections by endless inflation has no serious consequence???
When the soul-less oxygen thieves at the "federal" reserve creates large sums of monopoly money through a few keystrokes on a computer zap, do you think that some magical inflation fairy deposits free cash under our pillows to make up for the loss in buying power of our money?
Zap, if there is no magical inflation fairy it does not matter how stubborn or arrogant you are, on the issue of monetary inflation matters you are just plain wrong.
Edited by Mr.Al (10/15/09 02:06 AM)
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 22 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Yrat]
#11250793 - 10/15/09 01:39 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thank you!
Mr.Al does not advocate fiat money.
The Falcon apparently has not looked into the concept of competitive free market money.
Without legal tender laws, different competing mediums of exchange would whup the shit out of government issued fiat.
Falcon needs to understand that free market fiat is an oxymoron...
I mean: the only picture that comes to mind is a group of thugs toting machine guns, demanding that everyone accept their toilet paper as money for everything they want to buy...
Falcon, if "stimulus" (economic boom & bust money, really) is used for developing production would that not mean that the value of the dollar will drop in relation to the money spent?
Again, government spending is less efficient than the private market so there would be a loss of prosperity in this scenario. What part of the economy will the government decide needs "more production"? If there is not a push for it in the market will that not mean the creation of economic distortion, or do you surmise that government is omniscient in determining what the economy needs to produce. I recall that the genius central economic planners in a South American dictatorship let their country have a toilet paper shortage.... Ah yes, the impressive wisdom of central economic planners "at work".
Can you not see that this "economic stimulus" is merely another attempt at reinflating (with more money) the economy, setting the stage for another economic bust?
Seriously man, you said you studied business cycle theory...
Regarding money Falcon, do you not suppose that monetary competition would be a good thing???
How does monopoly money benefit people?
Edited by Mr.Al (10/15/09 02:10 AM)
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 152,645
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck 
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zorbman]
#11251865 - 10/15/09 08:36 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said:
What bullshit.
Ever heard of an eggless omelette or fat-free bacon?
http://scottishvegan.blogspot.com/2007/03/eggless-omelette.html
http://www.indobase.com/recipes/details/eggless-omelet.php
fat free bacon has a patent
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0847703.html
it still doesnt change the fact that there's no improvement in the
economy or that the job market is is still getting worse, skewing the
facts is easy when the reporting methods dont actually take any into
account
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 19 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11253024 - 10/15/09 12:00 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
No. I'm not that old, you fucker.
Purchasing power is a reasonable measure, no? All this talk about wages and inflation and whatnot being catastrophic is craziness. In the 60s, when I was a child these things were rare:
More than one car per household
Air conditioning
color television
dishwashers
I could go on ad nauseum. Even the poor today have more luxuries than most middle class families had then.
You also need to consider homeostasis vis-a-vis any measurement of prosperity, false, real or imagined. Constantly producing that ridiculous "The dollar has lost 96% of it's value since" nonsense does not facilitate your argument. If the "since" in question was "last Tuesday" you would have a point. But it isn't so you don't.
What part of THIS DAMN PSEUDO- ECONOMIC SYSTEM IS NOT SUSTAINABLE do you not understand.
Like Yrat has mentioned, what's the lifespan of fiat and why is it so damn short???
Sure as technology improves production becomes far more efficient, that is what you are observing. What you aren't looking at is that systemic market corrections are prevented by the inflation of the money supply! If the systemic market corrections are postponed indefinitely the entire fucking economy crashes! How do you not get that?
The prosperity we see is mortgaged with the future. When it's time to pay the piper the medium of exchange is destroyed!
There are serious consequences to inflating the money supply and if you are unwilling to see that you are just as at fault as all the other ostriches!
There is no such thing as a free lunch in economics.
Do you suppose that preventing economic corrections by endless inflation has no serious consequence???
When the soul-less oxygen thieves at the "federal" reserve creates large sums of monopoly money through a few keystrokes on a computer zap, do you think that some magical inflation fairy deposits free cash under our pillows to make up for the loss in buying power of our money?
Zap, if there is no magical inflation fairy it does not matter how stubborn or arrogant you are, on the issue of monetary inflation matters you are just plain wrong.
Al, my friend, I have heard this alarmist crap my entire life and nothing ever happens. The vast majority of economists think that a return to a gold standard is ridiculous and there is no evidence presented that Central Banking causes larger swings in economic activity. In fact, I believe the converse is true. A low steady level of inflation is NOT injurious. Massive inflation such as that of the seventies is hideous as were the usurious interest rates of the eighties which resulted from them. Too loose or too tight, neither is good. Goldilocks, doncha know. The preferable balance is for low inflation and interest rates at just a little higher rate. This can be managed. If there is no money supply management we will see wild homeostatic swings. This has been shown through history
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 6 hours, 19 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11253077 - 10/15/09 12:07 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Thank you!
Mr.Al does not advocate fiat money.
The Falcon apparently has not looked into the concept of competitive free market money.
Without legal tender laws, different competing mediums of exchange would whup the shit out of government issued fiat.
This has got to be a joke. Maybe we can set up some wildcat banks.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 22 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11255463 - 10/15/09 06:03 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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You are not looking at the fact that the market is not allowed to adjust during the bust phase of the economic cycle. The government quick fix is to inflate the money supply and create the illusion of prosperity.
That is why they are called business cycles, they have a disturbing tendency to repeat and inflate the money supply.
There is nothing steady or normal about the rate of government spending today, it is simply unprecedented.
You did not address the fact that those who receive the increase in the money supply first benefit because they can spend the money without feeling the effects of inflation.
By the time new money reaches most folk the prices have begun to adjust to the influx of new money as the economy enters the bust phase of the cycle.
Can you see that the inflation of the money supply does not benefit most Americans?
How do you figure that there would be wild swings in money valuations if people were using precious metals? That is typically what the market uses in a free market situation.
The P.M.s would raise in value over time in relation to the increase in production caused by technological innovation. This is the definition of prosperity.
How can you think devaluing the medium of exchange benefits people?
Artificially low interest rates are what the central bank causes. Artificially low interest rates encourage debt. Inflation and low interest rates discourage savings Savings is central to capitalism itself.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 22 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11255502 - 10/15/09 06:10 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Good money needs to be almost impossible to counterfeit. In a free market situation people tend to stay away from paper for that very reason. They gravitate towards gold and silver...
Would people want to be paid in money that declines in buying power or money that increases in purchasing power?
It really is that simple zap.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,403
Last seen: 1 hour, 58 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11255512 - 10/15/09 06:13 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Like Yrat has mentioned, what's the lifespan of fiat and why is it so damn short???
There is no lifespan. When too much money is created in too short a time, that's when it will fail. It's amazing how few of you Austrian scholars fail understand that inflation is caused by an excessive growth of the money supply, not by gradual growth. Gradual growth can continue indefinitely. Yes, the dollar loses value. But income levels compensate.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Sure as technology improves production becomes far more efficient, that is what you are observing. What you aren't looking at is that systemic market corrections are prevented by the inflation of the money supply! If the systemic market corrections are postponed indefinitely the entire fucking economy crashes! How do you not get that?
What do you mean inlations prevents "systemic market corrections"? Inflation IS a market correction to an increased money supply. If there wasn't this correction, we wouldn't see inflation.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
The prosperity we see is mortgaged with the future. When it's time to pay the piper the medium of exchange is destroyed!
You're confusing two unrelated points. Yes, when we borrow money, it has to be repayed in the future at the expense of the future taxpayer. I'm all for a balanced budget amendment. But how does repaying debt by the taxpayer destroy our medium of exchange?
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
There are serious consequences to OVERinflating the money supply and if you are unwilling to see that you are just as at fault as all the other ostriches!
Fixed that for you.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
There is no such thing as a free lunch in economics.
No one's arguing that point.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Do you suppose that preventing economic corrections by endless inflation has no serious consequence???
What "economic correction" is being prevented? Inflation IS a correction.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
When the soul-less oxygen thieves at the "federal" reserve creates large sums of monopoly money through a few keystrokes on a computer zap, do you think that some magical inflation fairy deposits free cash under our pillows to make up for the loss in buying power of our money?
No.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Zap, if there is no magical inflation fairy it does not matter how stubborn or arrogant you are, on the issue of monetary inflation matters you are just plain wrong.
What do statements like that accomplish? If you can't argue your point, you lose.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 22 hours
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Inflation is not a market correction. The market correction is prices increasing in relation to the previous inflation of the money supply.
The bust phase of the cycle is the market correction.
Inflating the money supply after the bust occurs is what sets up the next cycle. It is also where the malinvestment & misallocation of resources occurs.
How do you figure that "income levels compensate"?
The key point that you are not examining is that the increase of the money supply does not occur evenly throughout the economy. Most people find that their earnings will not keep pace with the inflation. Those who received the money first (think "bailouts") benefit. Everyone else foots the bill after prices adjust to the new money.
Inflation is caused by the central bank through the fractional reserve banking system and central economic planners. It is not a "market response".
Given that inflation is cyclical, how can you not surmise that the money supply will not become overinflated?
In my story of the inflation fairy, I am attempting to show very dense people that most people do not see enough of an increase in the money that they earn to compensate for the inflation of the entire money supply.
MOST PEOPLE ARE LEFT HOLDING A SMALLER PERCENTAGE OF THE MONEY SUPPLY AFTER THE MONEY SUPPLY IS INCREASED, THUS THEY HAVE LESS PURCHASING POWER THAN BEFORE!
That is exactly why Rothbard said, "The creation of new money confers no social benefit."
Borrowing and adding to the money supply is still inflationary to the money supply and confers no real social benefit.
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zorbman
Be Prepared
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,475
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Quote:
Yes, the dollar loses value. But income levels compensate.
Evidently only for the top 1% if I'm reading your chart correctly. For the large majority of earners wages have remained flat for decades even as inflation was rising. This seems to support what Mr. Al is saying about workers being squeezed.
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Men occasionally stumble over the truth but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill
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