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 obi
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 Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#9742479 - 02/05/09 05:04 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Anyone tried this with Kefir?
I feel like experimenting.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: obi]
#9747998 - 02/06/09 03:33 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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The microbes in yogurt and kefir are specialized in fermenting milk. You don't want to grow mushrooms in milk.
Carsten
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obi
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#9748054 - 02/06/09 04:42 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I was thinking more about water kefir, 'fasting' milk kefir beforehand might be an option as well.
I'm gonna try it.
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ddreamer
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: obi]
#11192921 - 10/06/09 10:01 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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wow great post! it unifies two subjects i'm really interested in! i make sourkraut and kefir, great stuff!
have you guys halted experiments? does the thread continue anywhere? are you alive?maybe you could write a list of accomplishments so far? (sorry for the avalanche i'm just very excited!)
from what i understand cubes take long in colonizing grain. do they also take long with straw? maybe grain could be made fluffier with some verm? is a small agar wedge enough or do you need a big chunk of mycelium or shroom like in the pics ?
once colonized is the rest of the growing the same length as usual?
have you tried shitake or reishi with fermented spawn?
i'll stop now before i can think of more questions to flood the thread heh
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ddreamer]
#11193186 - 10/06/09 10:48 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Remember reading this post about a year ago =]
Lol what a BUMP xD
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ddreamer]
#11193306 - 10/06/09 11:11 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hey ddreamer,
yes, I am still using this method from time to time. Lately I did some experiments in non sterile bottle cultivation and used fermented grain as a bottom layer, covered with alternating layers of colonized straw and fresh substrate. Worked fine for Pleurotus ostreatus and eryngii, Coprinus comatus did not colonize the grain completely and contaminated, but is currently fruiting. Macrolepiota procera did not get far, contaminated and died.
This is Pleurotus eryngii growing into the fermented grain layer.
For cubes, I wouldn't expect much. Shiitake will build up its brown defense line and perhaps colonize the grain later or never. Reishi remains to be tested. In any case you better have a layer of colonized substrate on top, so you have strong mycelium with enough oxygen. Don't mix.
Fermented straw (PH 5 to 6) makes more sense for cubes than grain (PH 3 to 4). Due to the higher PH it will be colonized quickly. Remember, a PH difference of 2 represents 100 times more/less molecules of lactic acid.
Carsten
Edited by Mycelio (10/06/09 11:13 AM)
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11193456 - 10/06/09 11:36 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Can i expect success using this method with cubensis myc. peace or spores?
Remind me why spores woould luckily not work?
what with edible shroom spores?
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11193895 - 10/06/09 12:42 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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No, spores won't germinate and even if they could, the mycelium would be too weak to survive. Same for LC. Apart from the low PH the microbes produce antibiotics. As written above you need big chunks of mycelium. Cube mycelium may grow in after a week if you are lucky, but success is less likely than with Pleurotus species.
Carsten
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11198459 - 10/07/09 01:23 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ok i see its all about pH 
I know by making the pH higher you give other stuff chances to grow but it worth a try =]
WBS will work right?
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11198780 - 10/07/09 05:12 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Better try in a small scale first. By raising the PH you will have a higher risk of contamination plus the fermentation will restart and produce more CO2.
Assuming your WBS is mostly millet, it should work fine, though the small kernels will be hard to strain and stay very wet. Wheat as well as a mixture of wheat and WBS works best, pure rye may not ferment as good (my experience from sourdough) and rice always failed for me.
Good luck and please post your results!
Carsten
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11213461 - 10/09/09 05:17 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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sure i will! I have weath =]
Well now i only have to start petri dish work -.-''
For soem reason i cant manage to grow anything lately, everything gets contamed :/
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blackout
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11225655 - 10/11/09 08:25 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Very interesting stuff. Does the preboiling of the grains not kill off the bacteria? It was said not to use bleach as it would kill off the bacteria, how about H2O2? It would be great if no heating was required at all, making bulk far more easy.
Boiling the water will drive off the chlorine, but also has the advantage of driving off the oxygen. Homebrewers who boil their wort (unfermented dilute malt extract) will usually aerate the water afterwards, this can be done with vigorous stirring or an airstone, I used to use a strainer dipping it into the brew and holding it up allowing the water to drip out of the hundreds of holes.
So to keep the water oxygen free boiling is a good idea, and very gentle stirring. Somebody mentioned the balloon trick as an airlock, you can also have a piece of tubing going from the bung and just sitting in a glass of water. CO2 is denser than air and will form a layer on the surface of fermenting beer, I used to just plug up the bung hole with cotton wool.
I am interested in any more work on the cubes. I wonder if there is a way to get them more used to the fermented grains before adding it. Or what exactly is causing the delay. If it is adjusting to the pH then perhaps after fermenting some grains you could PC them and add spores. The ones that grow will probably do better on low pH grains in general. It was said the fermented grains have antibiotics so might resist the growth, so you might have to add myc to the sterile jar of fermented grain, or do G2G.
In homebrew shops you will get many nutrients, I wonder if they would be of benefit.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: blackout]
#11226001 - 10/11/09 10:05 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Initially I did the preboiling step to prevent the grain kernels from germinating. Fermentation started anyway. Later I found boiling is not necessary at all. Soaking and covering with water is enough. If your water contains chlorine it may be good to boil it or let it sit for a day or two.
Complete absence of oxygen is also not necessary. I wonder if all those tricks with an airlock or covering with CO2 would favor other bacteria, which we don't want to grow.
Regarding Cubes, Spores and LC... sorry, but I get sick answering the same questions again and again. If you cube growers are too lazy to read or don't believe it, feel free to try and report.
Carsten
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blackout
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11227121 - 10/11/09 01:58 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said: If you cube growers are too lazy to read or don't believe it, feel free to try and report.
I will be trying it soon. I was hoping some others might have tried and not reported yet. I would like to hear success or failure. I have grains soaking in a strong bleach solution and they are bubbling a bit. There is white residue collecting in the bottom. I did this before reading this thread but I will try it without bleach too.
Oversoaking was mentioned, I have soaked wheat grains for many weeks before and upon calculation I always found they had slightly less than the recommended moisture levels.
I would imagine the addition of molasses would be a greater danger for other contams than the airlock. I have always heard warnings about sugar LCs and non-sterile substrates. In brewing beer/wine it also serves to keep out flies and bugs which are attracted to the fermenting brew. The oxygen promotes more yeast growth than alcohol production. Worts are aerated to ensure you get good yeast development at the start, not allowing other bacteria to get in first, once enough yeast is established you want to favour alcohol production, so do not aerate it anymore.
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M8M
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11228831 - 10/11/09 06:13 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Very interesting procedure. Have you considered using corn silage as a medium? Fermented corn silage should have a pH between 3.8 and 4.2
with the following acid concentrations (% of Dry Matter): lactic acid >4.0%, acetic acid >1.5%, and propionic acid <0.1%.
It is readily avaiable from almost any dairy farmer as it is a major livestock feed for dairy cattle.
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ddreamer
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: M8M]
#11231449 - 10/12/09 03:49 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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good idea M8M, we gotta experiment with different substrates, which might have different PH. much in the same way as hay has a higher ph. can sawdust or wood chips be fermented in a similar fashion? this would be beautiful for all the woodloving shrooms!
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: blackout]
#11231634 - 10/12/09 05:47 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackout said:
I would imagine the addition of molasses would be a greater danger for other contams than the airlock. I have always heard warnings about sugar LCs and non-sterile substrates. In brewing beer/wine it also serves to keep out flies and bugs which are attracted to the fermenting brew. The oxygen promotes more yeast growth than alcohol production. Worts are aerated to ensure you get good yeast development at the start, not allowing other bacteria to get in first, once enough yeast is established you want to favour alcohol production, so do not aerate it anymore.
What you say about brewing is interesting. In my eyes, having the lid on the jar but not screwing it on tightly is the optimum. All other additions are unnecessary complications and favor contams. Lately we had a discussion about Clostridium botulinum, which made me wonder, if completely anaerobic conditions could be dangerous. We also want to avoid a buildup of alcohol.
Carsten
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: M8M]
#11231647 - 10/12/09 05:56 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
M8M said:
Very interesting procedure. Have you considered using corn silage as a medium? Fermented corn silage should have a pH between 3.8 and 4.2
with the following acid concentrations (% of Dry Matter): lactic acid >4.0%, acetic acid >1.5%, and propionic acid <0.1%.
It is readily avaiable from almost any dairy farmer as it is a major livestock feed for dairy cattle.
Yes, fermented corn should work as well as other types of grain. The numbers you mention match those of other fermented material, though the amount of acetic acid should not be higher.
The large kernels will make it easier to get rid of excess moisture.
Carsten
Edited by Mycelio (10/12/09 05:59 AM)
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ddreamer]
#11231679 - 10/12/09 06:11 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ddreamer said:
can sawdust or wood chips be fermented in a similar fashion? this would be beautiful for all the woodloving shrooms!
No, not under water and not without a lot of oxygen. Look into aerated composting of wood chips with bran.
Carsten
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M8M
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11234679 - 10/12/09 04:49 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Corn silage is not just the grain, it is the entire corn plant, except the roots, chopped up like wood chips in the fall when the plant and grain has dried somewhat.(approx. 60-65% moisture content)
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