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 Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 23 hours
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Welfare is socialist. Explain how welfare strengthens the economy. I don't think you can because it doesn't. We could get somewhere if we look at economics from a more scientific perspective. I would like to see a nation that maximizes prosperity and personal freedom. I think they go together nicely.
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THC Titan
Spoonman
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 590
Loc: FL, USA
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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 Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11206742 - 10/08/09 09:08 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Welfare is socialist. Explain how welfare strengthens the economy. I don't think you can because it doesn't. We could get somewhere if we look at economics from a more scientific perspective. I would like to see a nation that maximizes prosperity and personal freedom. I think they go together nicely.
In rich developed countries, it is usually socially desirable to have some level of safety net available for the poorest and most needy among us. That doesn't necessarily include all the entitlement programs that are part of the "welfare state", and it is not socialism.
If you're saying there should be zero assistance to anyone, well, I'm sure there's an island in the Caribbean you can call your own where you don't have to get a shit about anyone but yourself, and everything can be reduced to net monetary benefit.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 23 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: THC Titan]
#11206787 - 10/08/09 09:15 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
THC Titan said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Welfare is socialist. Explain how welfare strengthens the economy. I don't think you can because it doesn't. We could get somewhere if we look at economics from a more scientific perspective. I would like to see a nation that maximizes prosperity and personal freedom. I think they go together nicely.
In rich developed countries, it is usually socially desirable to have some level of safety net available for the poorest and most needy among us. That doesn't necessarily include all the entitlement programs that are part of the "welfare state", and it is not socialism.
If you're saying there should be zero assistance to anyone, well, I'm sure there's an island in the Caribbean you can call your own where you don't have to get a shit about anyone but yourself, and everything can be reduced to net monetary benefit.
I think communities could do a far better job than government. People think that they can't do something once government takes over that role. Government likes to look benevolent because that's the easiest way to take advantage of people.
Welfare is redistribution of wealth which is a key part of socialism.
It is always interesting how no one has a convincing argument for welfare being good for the economy...
Edited by Mr.Al (10/08/09 09:17 AM)
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THC Titan
Spoonman
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 590
Loc: FL, USA
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11206992 - 10/08/09 09:51 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
I think communities could do a far better job than government. People think that they can't do something once government takes over that role. Government likes to look benevolent because that's the easiest way to take advantage of people.
Welfare is redistribution of wealth which is a key part of socialism.
It is always interesting how no one has a convincing argument for welfare being good for the economy...
If your idea of "maximizing prosperity" means concentrating a majority of the country's wealth in the upper 1% of the population, you're limiting your conception of both prosperity and freedom. If a significant number of people are not healthy and not educated, their ability to exercise their freedoms (and pursue happiness, blah blah) is severely limited.
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THC Titan
Spoonman
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 590
Loc: FL, USA
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: THC Titan]
#11207007 - 10/08/09 09:54 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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As an aside, what is the Austrian school of economics perspective on Pres. Reagan?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,403
Last seen: 2 hours, 40 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11207102 - 10/08/09 10:15 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
You are. You think Reagan and the Dem Congress of the eighties invented deficit spending, which is monumentally ignorant.
If I thought that, it would be monumentally ignorant. But you're making things up. I said monumental deficit spending started under Reagan. To be even more accurate I should have said "restarted".
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Obama and the Dem Congress are in the process of resizing that graph so that the bottom of it will go into this post.
That wouldn't disprove my point.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,403
Last seen: 2 hours, 40 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11207112 - 10/08/09 10:17 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm in agreement with THC Titan's respones to your posts.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 7 hours, 1 minute
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Of course you are. The consistency of both of your desires to spend other people's money is as certain as sunrise.
You also persist in the same false notion that the President determines the budget. He does not. Congress does.Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
You are. You think Reagan and the Dem Congress of the eighties invented deficit spending, which is monumentally ignorant.
If I thought that, it would be monumentally ignorant. But you're making things up. I said monumental deficit spending started under Reagan. To be even more accurate I should have said "restarted".
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Obama and the Dem Congress are in the process of resizing that graph so that the bottom of it will go into this post.
That wouldn't disprove my point.
You already said your point was incorrect but I will include this for reference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt
A nice table showing government debt as a fraction of GDP from 1940 to this year
Year Gross Debt in Billions [6] as % of GDP
1910 2.6 n/a
1920 25.9 n/a
1930 16.2 n/a
1940 43.0 52.4
1950 257.4 94.1
1960 290.5 56.1
1970 380.9 37.6
1980 909.0 33.3
1990 3,206.3 55.9
2000 5,628.7 58.0
2001 5,769.9 57.4
2002 6,198.4 59.7
2003 6,760.0 62.6
2004 7,354.7 63.9
2005 7,905.3 64.6
2006 8,451.4 65.0
2007 8,950.7 65.6
2008 9,985.8 70.2
2009 (est.) 12,867.5 90.4
2010 (est.) 14,456.3 98.1
2011 (est.) 15,673.9 101.1
2012 (est.) 16,565.7 100.6
2013 (est.) 17,440.2 99.7
2014 (est.) 18,350.0 99.8
As of 2007, the debt of the United States ranked as the 23rd-largest in the world as a percentage of GDP.[7].
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,403
Last seen: 2 hours, 40 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11207223 - 10/08/09 10:38 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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What are you saying? That deficits aren't a big deal?
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (10/08/09 02:57 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 7 hours, 1 minute
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No. That the Dem Congress is an out of control lunatic spendthrift socialist organization. Also that you are falsely asserting that the lowering of the top tax rates while Reagan was Pres led to unprecedented deficit spending.
http://www.college-cram.com/study/jer/presentations/970
Quote:
Taxation Part XII – Less is more: Later Experience with Tax Rate Cuts
In 1981 President Reagan signed the Kemp-Roth Tax Cut which trimmed the top marginal tax rate from 70% to 50% over three years, being fully implemented by 1984. Inflation adjusted tax revenue declined in the four years before 1983, but grew in 1983 and the three years following. Similarly, prior to the tax cuts, our economy grew at less than 1% annually with inflation adjustment, but the following four years grew at nearly 5% while inflation, unemployment, and interest rates also decreased. This was just the first round of cuts Reagan initiated.
Tax revenues went up. Spending went up even more. Let's stop the fucking spending and not go back to mugging people with more than a few dollars in their pocket.
He also asks a good question. Since you blindly follow the idea that raising tax rates increases revenue, do you believe that the most revenue would be achieved with a 100% rate?
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 Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 152,645
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck 
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: THC Titan]
#11207892 - 10/08/09 12:23 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
THC Titan said:
If you're saying there should be zero assistance to anyone
well shouldnt that assistance be available to everyone, it's not available
to me, I've been out of work for 2 years, I cant qualify for any sort of
government assistance, I was denied unemployment and even if I were able
to collect that would have expired 18 months ago, seems that the only one
that can get it are those have the entitlements and they seem to be based
on race, seems I'm not the flavor of the week
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THC Titan
Spoonman
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 590
Loc: FL, USA
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11208744 - 10/08/09 02:21 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
You also persist in the same false notion that the President determines the budget. He does not. Congress does.
You bring this up every time the discussion turns to fiscal policy, and I still don't understand how you made it to 50 years of age without having more than a fragmented understanding of the federal budgetary process.
Do you really believe the President has no direct influence in crafting the annual budget? Is it even possible to lay out a general framework for the process without including the role of the President and executive branch? I don't think you could, because it would instantly reveal how deceptive you are being. In fact, the President is one of the most important actors in the budgetary process.
This blind unawareness of government reminds me of certain people who criticized Sotomoyor for her comments about courts "making policy" when it's obvious to anyone with an education that every time the court determines the constitutionality of an issue, it changes the way those behaviors/rules/laws are practiced - thus, believe it or not, making policy.
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THC Titan
Spoonman
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 590
Loc: FL, USA
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11208748 - 10/08/09 02:23 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
well shouldnt that assistance be available to everyone, it's not available
to me, I've been out of work for 2 years, I cant qualify for any sort of
government assistance, I was denied unemployment and even if I were able
to collect that would have expired 18 months ago, seems that the only one
that can get it are those have the entitlements and they seem to be based
on race, seems I'm not the flavor of the week
What? Prisoner#1 scapegoating black people? I've never seen this before!
Hey buddy, why don't you stop being so gosh-darned lazy and pull yourself up by the bootstraps.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,403
Last seen: 2 hours, 40 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11208904 - 10/08/09 02:51 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Since you blindly follow the idea that raising tax rates increases revenue, do you believe that the most revenue would be achieved with a 100% rate?
No. I'm familiar with the Laffer Curve. The most revenue will be achieved somewhere between 40% - 75% depending on many factors (the more someone makes the higher tax rate they will accept before they become less motivated to work).
The links I posted above show why revenue went up under Reagan. Inflation, population growth, and other new taxes that effectively transferred taxes from the wealthy to everyone else.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (10/08/09 03:01 PM)
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 152,645
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: THC Titan]
#11209598 - 10/08/09 04:45 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
THC Titan said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
well shouldnt that assistance be available to everyone, it's not available
to me, I've been out of work for 2 years, I cant qualify for any sort of
government assistance, I was denied unemployment and even if I were able
to collect that would have expired 18 months ago, seems that the only one
that can get it are those have the entitlements and they seem to be based
on race, seems I'm not the flavor of the week
What? Prisoner#1 scapegoating black people? I've never seen this before!
Hey buddy, why don't you stop being so gosh-darned lazy and pull yourself up by the bootstraps.
so, lemme ask you, is it right that the non-contributing sector of
society can collect the government benefits I've paid for but when
in my time of need I cannot?
you should link us to that scapegoating you claim I've done
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,403
Last seen: 2 hours, 40 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11209717 - 10/08/09 05:00 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
well shouldnt that assistance be available to everyone, it's not available to me, I've been out of work for 2 years, I cant qualify for any sort of government assistance, I was denied unemployment and even if I were able to collect that would have expired 18 months ago, seems that the only one that can get it are those have the entitlements and they seem to be based on race, seems I'm not the flavor of the week
Are you saying a minority in the same position as you would be collecting benefits right now??? Please provide a link or explain this further. Thanks.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 152,645
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,515
Last seen: 7 hours, 1 minute
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: THC Titan]
#11209881 - 10/08/09 05:24 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
THC Titan said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
You also persist in the same false notion that the President determines the budget. He does not. Congress does.
You bring this up every time the discussion turns to fiscal policy, and I still don't understand how you made it to 50 years of age without having more than a fragmented understanding of the federal budgetary process.
Do you really believe the President has no direct influence in crafting the annual budget? Is it even possible to lay out a general framework for the process without including the role of the President and executive branch? I don't think you could, because it would instantly reveal how deceptive you are being. In fact, the President is one of the most important actors in the budgetary process.
This blind unawareness of government reminds me of certain people who criticized Sotomoyor for her comments about courts "making policy" when it's obvious to anyone with an education that every time the court determines the constitutionality of an issue, it changes the way those behaviors/rules/laws are practiced - thus, believe it or not, making policy.
Egregiously nonsensical from top to bottom. There are vast latitudes of policy that can be determined by the legislature that have no judicial impact at all.
And I have never denied that the President can influence legislation. What I have endeavored to point out over and over again for the simple-minded is that the real dictator in terms of spending is the Congress. Hence all descriptions of what happened budgetarily at any time are far more accurately ascribed to the make up of Congress and NOT the White House.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,403
Last seen: 2 hours, 40 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11209932 - 10/08/09 05:31 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
provide a link to what, my non-existent bank account?
http://www.fns.usda.gov/fsp/applicant_recipients/eligibility.htm
Did I miss something in your link saying only minorities are eligible for food stamps? Isn't that your claim? That minorities in your position would get some kind of welfare that you're not getting?
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 152,645
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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maybe you should read my posts again, it's obvious you're missing something
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