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 DrWhite
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 Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate
#11154706 - 09/29/09 11:40 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm sure most of you have read the Shulgin article about this, if not I will quote it.
Quote:
However there is a very interesting study that took place in Leipzig about 15 years ago. Jochen Gartz, a mushroom explorer whom I know quite well, has done some fascinating studies with Psilocybe species by raising them on solid media containing strange tryptamines that are alien to the mushroom. Apparently the enzymes that are responsible for the 4-hydroxy group of psilocin are indifferent to what it is they choose to 4-hydroxylate. He has taken things like DPT or DIPT and put them in the growth media and the fruiting bodies that came out contain 4-hydroxy-DPT or 4-hydroxy-DIPT instead of psilocin. In fact, he has a patent on the process. These active compounds are made by the mushroom so they really are natural and yet they never have been observed in nature. I'll give you even odds that if you put spores of a psilocybe species on cow droppings loaded with 5-MeO-DMT you would come out with mushrooms containing 4,5-HO-MeO-DMT. This way you avoid a 10 step synthesis by growing a psychoactive mushroom that contains no illegal drug.
With the whole thing being found here.
I was wondering what if I added 4-AcO-DMT (O-Acetylpsilocin, It is a prodrug for Psilocin) would that make 4,4-HO-AcO-DMT or would it just make potent mushrooms or nothing at all?
I have a half gram of 4-AcO-DMT and some rye grow bags. If I went about this would I have to add it before I inoculated them or when I added it to a casing and if so how much?
If this works, what happens if I added 2c-e?
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EdgeChaos
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 Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: DrWhite]
#11154772 - 09/29/09 11:51 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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This is one of the things I have been intrigued by as well. Sadly other than that specific claim by Gartz there is little information available.
It would be worth it if you had access to testing equipment and you performed a study. Outside of that context you would probably be wasting your 4-AcO-DMT.
Also I don't even know if it would be possible to 4-hydroxylate 4-AcO-DMT.
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Lucas89
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: DrWhite]
#11154903 - 09/30/09 12:14 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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wow, thats a pretty cool thought. i wonder how difficult this could be to actually work?
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EdgeChaos
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: Lucas89]
#11154979 - 09/30/09 12:28 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah, It's definitely interesting but I need something more conclusive than "Gartz said so" before giving much more thought to the idea.
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Lucas89
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: EdgeChaos]
#11155003 - 09/30/09 12:32 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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definitely. dont want to waste your 4-aco-dmt!
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 Auxin
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: Lucas89]
#11155237 - 09/30/09 02:38 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Sorry but it defiantly would not make "4-HO-4-AcO-DMT". That would no longer be a tryptamine and the enzyme involved almost certainly wouldnt have the power to break the aromaticity of the tryptamine nucleus anyway (which youd have to do to get two things on carbon 4).. and if that compound somehow was made it'd instantly break down to, er, whatever the proper name for 4,5-dihydro-N,N,-dimethyltryptamine-4-one is 
2-(4,5-dihydro-1H-indol-4-one-3-yl)-N,N-dimethyl-ethanamine I think
With that aromatic system disrupted it could just as easily come out as an antihistamine drug or a cancer inducing toxin instead of a hallucinogen.
My guess is if 4-AcO-DMT were added the result would be either degradation of it, retention of it, or simple conversion to psilocin... or likely some combination of all three. That AcO group is kinda sensitive.
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urbanfarmer
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: Auxin]
#11156094 - 09/30/09 08:47 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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In the body, psilocybin and 4-AcO-DMT are essentially indistinguishable. Both hydrolyze to lose the ester on the 4 position, turning each into psilocin.
So this experiment would be a huge waste of time.
If you have some NMT, supposedly that is most effectively absorbed by mycelia. No idea where to get that from, though.
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Lucas89
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: urbanfarmer]
#11156139 - 09/30/09 09:02 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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some australian acacias contain small amounts of NMT.
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 Doc_T
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: urbanfarmer]
#11156151 - 09/30/09 09:07 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
urbanfarmer said:
So this experiment would be a huge waste of time.
Plus, who needs more potent mushrooms? Just eat another handful, you'll be fine.
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smaerd
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: Doc_T]
#11156657 - 09/30/09 10:56 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I wonder what would happen if someone added something like melotonin(tryptamine/OTC sleep aid) to a substrate.
Is there anyways to look up what kind of enzymes occur, or what kind of transformations happen to chemicals "digested" by mycelia? Or is this one of those things that is still being studied.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: smaerd]
#11157847 - 09/30/09 02:02 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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All of these things have been added hundreds of times, and talked about thousands of times, and so far NO ONE has repeated gartz's claimed results. It's all talk. Search some of the terms in this thread to see hundreds more just like it that have been posted over the years, all with no increased results whatsoever. One of the biggest rules in science is that an experiment must be able to be duplicated to be accepted.
RR
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mycochef
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: RogerRabbit]
#11163072 - 10/01/09 09:45 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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It is amazing though how many published articles in well known science publications have experiments with unreproducible results. But I agree with RR if you cannot reproduce results of an experiment it is bunk.
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Pinback
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: mycochef]
#11164109 - 10/01/09 01:03 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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To my knowledge, the only one who has tried to replicate the experiment is Psylocybe Fanaticus. He claims it worked. I would not trust bioassays too much though.
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spacel0rd
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: DrWhite]
#11164660 - 10/01/09 02:53 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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You can try it but I guess most ppl won't be interested unless you
- measure the amount of alkaloids in the product
- least have a grow without additional tryptamines
Best would be having multiple trays prepared w/ and w/o additional trypts in the subst.
Not that it's not interesting but there's been so much talk about this stuff and hardly any results.
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urbanfarmer
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: mycochef]
#11165631 - 10/01/09 05:53 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I recall seeing at least one paper posted here where they tracked the uptake of various radioisotope cybin precursors. Gantz's method seems like a valid possibility, but I haven't seen anyone else attempt it with necessary lab gear. If it works, the myc would create both cybin (through its normal pathways) as well as the substituted tryptamine -- you would need to be able to refine the latter from the former. TLC, wicked high vacuum, something.
I feel strongly that Gantz's method could be reproduced, but most of the chatter in this forum is a bunch of amateurism that doesn't address the testing and controls needed to prove it.
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EdgeChaos
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: urbanfarmer]
#11166254 - 10/01/09 08:03 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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That's the problem with a claim like this. Most people interested enough to do the experiment don't have the equipment to do it with.
Someone should talk to Shulgin about helping him with a study to try and replicate gartz claim. Of course I'm dreaming, but it would be nice to work with Shulgin. 
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Doc_T
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: urbanfarmer]
#11166265 - 10/01/09 08:05 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
urbanfarmer said:
chatter [...] that doesn't address the testing and controls needed to prove it.
That.
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DrWhite
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: Doc_T]
#11166311 - 10/01/09 08:12 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Is there a lab that I could send off mushrooms to get tested? Say over a while I grow 10 trays for a control and 90 trays of various tryptamines including DMT, Tryptamine, Dipt, 5-MeO-DMT, and others.
All of these will hopefully be grown off the same gene or clone of agar.
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Doc_T
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: DrWhite]
#11166549 - 10/01/09 08:48 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Send 100 samples to a lab? On just the first round of tests? Sheesh.
You'd probably be better off buying yourself a gas chromatograph mass spectrometer. Look around on eBay, maybe.
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leftover_crack
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Re: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate [Re: urbanfarmer]
#11167797 - 10/02/09 12:16 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
urbanfarmer said:
If it works, the myc would create both cybin (through its normal pathways) as well as the substituted tryptamine
if i recall correctly the mushroom only produces the added substituted version as substituted tryptamines inhibit the tryptophan decarboxylase hence DET prevents tryptamine and hence psilocin from forming leaving only 4-ho-DET to be produced.
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