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 Cannabischarlie
Yarry's Apprentice
Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 11,572
Last seen: 6 hours, 21 minutes
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 bill clinton fucking sucked 
#11122297 - 09/24/09 10:02 PM (1 month, 27 days ago) |
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my father is admittedly a yellow dog democrat.
my only problem is he cant be the least bit critical of anything a democrat does, he instead changes the subject and more or less turns it back to what the republicans are doing wrong, blah blah blah fucking conservatives.
its like hes a total fucking idiot about the matter. i even told him most people will find a politician, particularly a president, whom they really dislike even if they consider themselves one way or the other.
i think clinton was a truly shitty president. nothing about the economy doing better really had anything to do with what he did and there are a lot of reasons i think hes a worthless piece of shit.
I truly hate his policies and i think he is a fucking socialist. I also think both bushes where socialists and a lot of republicans too. I actually really like Obama because I think he is the first president in my lifetime (i am 26) with any fucking brains and concept of doing things properly, having conviction and having a fucking nutsack. I am not a democrat and I still really hate fucking conservatives. I also hate how they have hijacked the republican party and i think "democrat" and "republican" mean different things every quarter century, and even in nixons time and prior there seemed to be fewer and fewer republicans who werent conservatives. There is nothing good about conservatives whatsoever. 
Bill Clinton is a farce of a president as a whole.
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Cannabischarlie 2.0
 we could all use a little more sunshine.
 yeah, she's funny and somewhat interesting. not a beauty queen, but not bad lookin. i'd feel quite honored to fuck janine garofalo. -tiny_rabid_birds
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 8,037
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 2 hours, 40 minutes
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Meh. Not the worst president ever. I kinda liked him for a while.
But to call him and both Bushes 'socialists' suggests you may not be using the standard meaning of the term. It doesn't apply to all three.
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It's not overlay. Stand back, zoom in to get a better pic. There's only one way to tell if your LC is good.
RogerRabbit said: Your face is not a valid hygrometer.
RR's DVD and vids(w/Roadkill) Hyphae's Pinning Strategy Agar's Grain LC EZ-Port LC Lids Mini Mono Tubs
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Cannabischarlie
Yarry's Apprentice
Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 11,572
Last seen: 6 hours, 21 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Doc_T]
#11122457 - 09/24/09 10:20 PM (1 month, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Doc_T said:
Meh. Not the worst president ever. I kinda liked him for a while.
But to call him and both Bushes 'socialists' suggests you may not be using the standard meaning of the term. It doesn't apply to all three.
whereabouts in Colorado do you live? I live here also.
While National Socialists hate communism, And Communists hated National Socialists, it is the same as Conservatives hating "liberal socialists" and well you get the gist.
Conservatives point to Ayn Rand as "one of them" even know that is not even remotely true. Ayn Rand believed that man’s own happiness is the moral purpose of his life. Conservatives believe in sacrifice to “the country” (much like socialists believe in sacrifice to “the people” – see, they aren’t so different after all), and servitude to God.
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Cannabischarlie 2.0
we could all use a little more sunshine.
yeah, she's funny and somewhat interesting. not a beauty queen, but not bad lookin. i'd feel quite honored to fuck janine garofalo. -tiny_rabid_birds
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Yrat
Hello
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 1,185
Last seen: 9 hours, 39 minutes
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Quote:
Cannabischarlie said:
i think clinton was a truly shitty president. I truly hate his policies and i think he is a fucking socialist.
Quote:
I actually really like Obama
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"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 8,037
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 2 hours, 40 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Yrat]
#11123984 - 09/25/09 06:42 AM (1 month, 26 days ago) |
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I'm in Co Springs.
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It's not overlay. Stand back, zoom in to get a better pic. There's only one way to tell if your LC is good.
RogerRabbit said: Your face is not a valid hygrometer.
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 KillerPicklez
Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 8,241
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Doc_T]
#11123997 - 09/25/09 06:54 AM (1 month, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Doc_T said:
Meh. Not the worst president ever. I kinda liked him for a while.
But to call him and both Bushes 'socialists' suggests you may not be using the standard meaning of the term. It doesn't apply to all three.
I think he is one of the better ones we have had
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 8,037
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 2 hours, 40 minutes
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I think so aside from the part about sticking his finger in the camera and lying to me.
"I did not..." we all know it by heart.
He should have stuck his finger in the camera and said "It's none of your business, get stuffed".
I think history will soften the harshness, and we'll remember him more fondly as time goes on. Like Nixon.
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It's not overlay. Stand back, zoom in to get a better pic. There's only one way to tell if your LC is good.
RogerRabbit said: Your face is not a valid hygrometer.
RR's DVD and vids(w/Roadkill) Hyphae's Pinning Strategy Agar's Grain LC EZ-Port LC Lids Mini Mono Tubs
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The False Diviner
Stranger
Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 45
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Doc_T]
#11124495 - 09/25/09 09:50 AM (1 month, 26 days ago) |
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Bill Clinton had his selling points.
The economy was strong during his terms. Which was a result of not doing anything to fuck it up during his term, but his economic policies did very little to insure future economic strength. He seemed to have a good grasp of foreign affairs.
Bill Clinton should have lost his job.
The Lewinsky scandal was about more than lying under oath. The none of your business argument really doesn't fly. The President of the United States of America having sexual relations of any kind with an intern is sleazy at best. I would assert that the the top dog in our government having an affair with an intern is more a misuse of his position and even predatory abuse of power. Certainly not in the best interest of the public, and combined with the lied under oath condition should have resulted in a different outcome.
Have a nice day,
The False Diviner
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 8,037
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 2 hours, 40 minutes
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Sleazy yes. Impeachable, no. IMO.
If she'd been underage, or she got something out of it, or if she'd been working for another power... but it was just sleazy.
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It's not overlay. Stand back, zoom in to get a better pic. There's only one way to tell if your LC is good.
RogerRabbit said: Your face is not a valid hygrometer.
RR's DVD and vids(w/Roadkill) Hyphae's Pinning Strategy Agar's Grain LC EZ-Port LC Lids Mini Mono Tubs
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MistaUNGA
green crack GREEN CRACK!!
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Kalifornien, im Süden...
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Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.64
just so you know where I stand...
if it weren't for conservatives, the libs would just run amok and pass every bone-headed piece of shit legislation they come up with and run the country's economy even quicker into the shitter, with green legislation that harms business and all that al gore bullshit. (like not watering farms in california because its killing fish because of water supply levels being too low  )
if it weren't for liberals, the conservatives wouldn't get anything done (if they were truly conservative). nowadays the republicans basically just pursue a fascist platform, and its the libs who keep that from happening (except for democrats being complicit on the Patriot Act, FISA Amendments, Military Commissions Act, TARP, Bailout, etc)
so you see both sides are complicit in ruining our country. thats what that balance is for, to kind of slow down the inevitable.
as for bill clinton, he sucked dick, not monica
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Madtowntripper said:Or just give her a cloroform soaked rag and tell her it's ether!
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The False Diviner
Stranger
Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 45
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: MistaUNGA]
#11124665 - 09/25/09 10:44 AM (1 month, 26 days ago) |
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Doc_T, she did get something out of it.
She was an unpaid intern from July 1995 to December 1995. The affair began in November of 1995 and ended in March 1997. From December 1995 to December 1997 she was a payed government employee, first at the White house, and then was move to the Pentagon in April 1996, as Lewinsky's superiors felt she was spending too much time around Clinton. So the time line is she was an unpaid intern in October 95, sucked Bill's dick in November, got a paying job at the White house in December.
The False Diviner
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 8,037
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 2 hours, 40 minutes
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She probably could have gotten the job anyway. But you're right.
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It's not overlay. Stand back, zoom in to get a better pic. There's only one way to tell if your LC is good.
RogerRabbit said: Your face is not a valid hygrometer.
RR's DVD and vids(w/Roadkill) Hyphae's Pinning Strategy Agar's Grain LC EZ-Port LC Lids Mini Mono Tubs
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The False Diviner
Stranger
Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 45
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Doc_T]
#11124809 - 09/25/09 11:19 AM (1 month, 26 days ago) |
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I agree, she probably could have gotten the job anyway.
The False Diviner
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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Quote:
Cannabischarlie said:
i think clinton was a truly shitty president. nothing about the economy doing better really had anything to do with what he did and there are a lot of reasons i think hes a worthless piece of shit.
I suppose this means you've been reading... good to know, the economy
during clintons administration was artificially 'improved' just as
clintons budget surplus was fabrication.
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11125030 - 09/25/09 12:05 PM (1 month, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Cannabischarlie said:
i think clinton was a truly shitty president. nothing about the economy doing better really had anything to do with what he did and there are a lot of reasons i think hes a worthless piece of shit.
I suppose this means you've been reading... good to know, the economy
during clintons administration was artificially 'improved' just as
clintons budget surplus was fabrication.
Indeed, the overall economic strategy in America has been for decades: mortgaging the future for a present false prosperity.
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 8,037
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 2 hours, 40 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: MistaUNGA]
#11125034 - 09/25/09 12:05 PM (1 month, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
MistaUNGA said:
nowadays the republicans basically just pursue a fascist platform,
Agreed. Fascist, not socialist. Clinton wasn't really a socialist either, not like Obama or Roosevelt.
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It's not overlay. Stand back, zoom in to get a better pic. There's only one way to tell if your LC is good.
RogerRabbit said: Your face is not a valid hygrometer.
RR's DVD and vids(w/Roadkill) Hyphae's Pinning Strategy Agar's Grain LC EZ-Port LC Lids Mini Mono Tubs
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Doc_T]
#11125046 - 09/25/09 12:07 PM (1 month, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Doc_T said:
Quote:
MistaUNGA said:
nowadays the republicans basically just pursue a fascist platform,
Agreed. Fascist, not socialist. Clinton wasn't really a socialist either, not like Obama or Roosevelt.
Given that fascism is by definition an economy in which government is taking over formerly private industries is not our present situation in America developing into fascism?
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Yrat
Hello
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 1,185
Last seen: 9 hours, 39 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11125539 - 09/25/09 01:33 PM (1 month, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
The most popular storyline offered by these Monday morning quarterbacks is that the mistaken decision to allow Lehman to fail resulted from the Bush Administration's misplaced faith in the free markets. In this telling, the real crises began in the days following the Lehman bankruptcy, which unleashed a financial panic that would have caused complete economic collapse -- if not for the subsequent federal intervention.
In reality, Lehman's demise was simply the result of an unfolding crisis that began years before. Popular belief aside, allowing the institution to succumb to the overwhelming debts on its balance sheet was perhaps the only correct decision made by government since this crisis began. The propagandists' complete reversal of cause and effect now threatens to spur the government to compound prior mistakes and bring on the next phase of the financial crisis. Unfortunately, this chapter will likely be much more dangerous than what we saw last fall.
However, politics quickly trumped economics, and the Lehman trial balloon soon turned into the Hindenburg. Washington had no stomach for the ensuing financial carnage, and when other institutions began to topple, Bush, Paulson and Bernanke abandoned their prior convictions and threw all they had into the ensuing bailout bonanza. As a result, the moral hazard that they had sought to avoid now exists on a scale unprecedented in our history. Capitalism has been extinguished on Wall Street, and our financial institutions now exist as public utilities. The presidents of our biggest banks are now the highest paid civil servants in the world!
Since market forces are no longer allowed to allocate capital and control risk, these decisions are now made by government regulators and are then passed through to their subordinates on Wall Street. This perverse organizational structure constitutes a new form of American fascism.
~Peter Schiff
control over financial sector, auto sector, housing sector, have i forgotten any? if it's not fascism now, when does it start to be?
--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!
Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 1,194
Loc: A Tree
Last seen: 14 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Yrat]
#11126316 - 09/25/09 03:42 PM (1 month, 26 days ago) |
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I fucking love the Politics forum on the Shroomery.
I swear, this is not sarcastic, I am surprised almost every time I actually look up this shit.
~Monk
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: numonkei]
#11126557 - 09/25/09 04:22 PM (1 month, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
numonkei said:
I fucking love the Politics forum on the Shroomery.
I swear, this is not sarcastic, I am surprised almost every time I actually look up this shit.
~Monk
The Germans have been talking about how the last person to nationalize their auto industry also had a funny mustache.
I recall Putin praising the effectiveness of the American propaganda machine. That was months ago though...
When Germans and Russians are legitimately making fun of American politics you know something has gone horribly wrong.
Edited by Mr.Al (09/25/09 04:31 PM)
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sandman3698
Stranger
Registered: 07/02/09
Posts: 94
Last seen: 1 month, 12 days
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11127415 - 09/25/09 06:52 PM (1 month, 26 days ago) |
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I think you guys are getting fascism and communism mixed up.
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Insanity in individuals is something rare -- but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule. -Nietzche
What luck for the rulers that men do not think. -Adolf Hitler
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robcypher
I suck cocks for socks
Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 108
Loc: pittsburgh, pa
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11128883 - 09/25/09 11:18 PM (1 month, 26 days ago) |
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whew, most of you guys are fucking loony. Clinton was a okay president. He gets a B from me. A lot of you need to read a lot more before you start labeling people as "socialist" or "libertarian", btw, because it's clear that not too many people in this thread know exactly what these words mean.
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zorbman
Hyperinflation2010
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 4,417
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Bill Clinton was actually a pretty good president. Especially compared against his replacements.
Sounds like you have some issues with your father which are clouding your judgement towards Clinton.
You don't give many specifics to back your opinion which suggests you are a political novice.
If you haven't gotten into politics I would suggest you stay out of national politics as there is almost no logic to it whatsoever- just a bunch of old people being rude and trying to get on tv. Just look at the regulars here on this forum- would you really want these people as your neighbors? 
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My predictions: BushRecession2008 Coming next: Hyperinflation2010.
Ideological balance coming to the Politics mod team in the year 2525. (If man is still alive).
Edited by zorbman (09/26/09 01:59 AM)
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Yrat
Hello
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 1,185
Last seen: 9 hours, 39 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zorbman]
#11129910 - 09/26/09 05:09 AM (1 month, 25 days ago) |
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he actually balanced and reversed the trend of the federal budget. he definitely gets points from me for doing that.
--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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Yrat
Hello
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 1,185
Last seen: 9 hours, 39 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Yrat]
#11129935 - 09/26/09 05:25 AM (1 month, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said:
Quote:
The most popular storyline offered by these Monday morning quarterbacks is that the mistaken decision to allow Lehman to fail resulted from the Bush Administration's misplaced faith in the free markets. In this telling, the real crises began in the days following the Lehman bankruptcy, which unleashed a financial panic that would have caused complete economic collapse -- if not for the subsequent federal intervention.
In reality, Lehman's demise was simply the result of an unfolding crisis that began years before. Popular belief aside, allowing the institution to succumb to the overwhelming debts on its balance sheet was perhaps the only correct decision made by government since this crisis began. The propagandists' complete reversal of cause and effect now threatens to spur the government to compound prior mistakes and bring on the next phase of the financial crisis. Unfortunately, this chapter will likely be much more dangerous than what we saw last fall.
However, politics quickly trumped economics, and the Lehman trial balloon soon turned into the Hindenburg. Washington had no stomach for the ensuing financial carnage, and when other institutions began to topple, Bush, Paulson and Bernanke abandoned their prior convictions and threw all they had into the ensuing bailout bonanza. As a result, the moral hazard that they had sought to avoid now exists on a scale unprecedented in our history. Capitalism has been extinguished on Wall Street, and our financial institutions now exist as public utilities. The presidents of our biggest banks are now the highest paid civil servants in the world!
Since market forces are no longer allowed to allocate capital and control risk, these decisions are now made by government regulators and are then passed through to their subordinates on Wall Street. This perverse organizational structure constitutes a new form of American fascism.
~Peter Schiff
control over financial sector, auto sector, housing sector, have i forgotten any? if it's not fascism now, when does it start to be?
i forgot the attempts at the health care sector!
--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: robcypher]
#11130029 - 09/26/09 06:32 AM (1 month, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
robcypher said:
whew, most of you guys are fucking loony. Clinton was a okay president. He gets a B from me. A lot of you need to read a lot more before you start labeling people as "socialist" or "libertarian", btw, because it's clear that not too many people in this thread know exactly what these words mean.
Some people would do well to study economics, looking at business cycle theory in particular, and they might discover that Clinton was one of the individuals responsible for the housing market bubble. Nancy Pelosi, Barney Frank, and of course the fed chairman at the time Alan Greenspan are all also to varying degrees at fault for that massive market distortion. The economic mess we are in could be called the partial effects of the necessary market correction to fix the malinvestment caused by artificially low interest rates and bogus legislation like the Community Reinvestment Act. Austrian Business Cycle Theory is key to understanding why the economy is presently F.U.B.A.R. and not merely S.N.A.F.U.
It needs to be remembered that you can't truly ascertain a leader until you see the effects of their decisions many years later...
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robcypher
I suck cocks for socks
Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 108
Loc: pittsburgh, pa
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
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 Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11130144 - 09/26/09 07:46 AM (1 month, 25 days ago) |
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Clinton merely modified policies extended forth by Bush I and Reagan. The Reagan/Bush people are who you need to look at (remember the S&L scandals, Iran-Contra, etc)
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mushateman
tripper
Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 5
Last seen: 1 month, 25 days
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: robcypher]
#11130206 - 09/26/09 08:10 AM (1 month, 25 days ago) |
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right
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Yrat]
#11130865 - 09/26/09 11:40 AM (1 month, 25 days ago) |
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--------------------
"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: mushateman]
#11130882 - 09/26/09 11:45 AM (1 month, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushateman said:
right
he's right, clinton was tied into iran/contra as well as heavily tied to
the S&L scandals, let's not forget whitewater, the clintons disappearing
and reappearing records and the way the clinton know anything about
anything that they had any dealings with
with the S&L scandals tax payers footed the bill for $125bn and they
still went under with none of that money being recovered
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Cannabischarlie
Yarry's Apprentice
Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 11,572
Last seen: 6 hours, 21 minutes
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Quote:
The False Diviner said:
Bill Clinton had his selling points.
The economy was strong during his terms. Which was a result of not doing anything to fuck it up during his term, but his economic policies did very little to insure future economic strength. He seemed to have a good grasp of foreign affairs.
Bill Clinton should have lost his job.
The Lewinsky scandal was about more than lying under oath. The none of your business argument really doesn't fly. The President of the United States of America having sexual relations of any kind with an intern is sleazy at best. I would assert that the the top dog in our government having an affair with an intern is more a misuse of his position and even predatory abuse of power. Certainly not in the best interest of the public, and combined with the lied under oath condition should have resulted in a different outcome.
Have a nice day,
The False Diviner
everyone makes some good points in this thread, but the fact of the matter is that besides not doing anything to truly "fuck up" the budget and that if anything its like someone else said, he didnt do anything that is sustainable in the long run, more or less a house of cards, and part of that is the fact that taxation was so high that in the end it contributed to whats going on now by more or less giving a false sense that everything is going okay and only living in the "now" without looking ahead to see the consequences of said policies is a fallacy. it is also a fallacy to give him so much credit for everything that happened when it seems like the the budget was the way it was in spite of what he did not because of it.
nothing long term was looked into and i feel he was not progressive like he makes himself out to be but moreso just trying to keep the status quo.
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Cannabischarlie 2.0
we could all use a little more sunshine.
yeah, she's funny and somewhat interesting. not a beauty queen, but not bad lookin. i'd feel quite honored to fuck janine garofalo. -tiny_rabid_birds
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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Quote:
Cannabischarlie said:
everyone makes some good points in this thread, but the fact of the matter is that besides not doing anything to truly "fuck up" the budget
he gave 5% of the budget to his friends in banking so they could close up shop and retire early
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: robcypher]
#11132909 - 09/26/09 05:47 PM (1 month, 25 days ago) |
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It is as if the presidency is a political hot potato...
You attempt to prop everything up (see: bubble economics a.k.a. keynesian economics). Prevent the liquid shit from hitting the fan. Pass the job to the next useless schlep....
Economic distortions need to be corrected in order for the economy to move forward in a meaningful way (efficient allocation of available resources).
The problem we run into is that market corrections for systemic malinvesment are inherently painful throughout the economy.
Thus, actually fixing economic problems is politically unpopular because people don't want to be told the truth that the solution is painful.
Economic corrections that are allowed to take their course (Id est: America circa 1920-1921) are somewhat severe, but short lived.
Government intervention (such as the nonsense during the Great Depression) leads to protracted economic agony, an increase in the size and scope of government, and an economy that is less responsive due to government regulation.
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 803
Loc: Florida
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11134837 - 09/27/09 12:12 AM (1 month, 25 days ago) |
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What do you mean when you say, "efficient allocation of available resources"?
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Yrat
Hello
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 1,185
Last seen: 9 hours, 39 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: C.M. Mann]
#11135926 - 09/27/09 07:22 AM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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i think he means the liquidation of assets of insolvent institutions. when capitalism is in place, companies that go bankrupt sell off their assets to pay off debts. these assets are bought by those who operate in an efficient matter and are actually able to produce a profit. this way, resources are transferred from failing institutions and sectors to those succeeding and growing, generating positive growth.
propping up these insolvent institutions with taxpayer money prevents this natural process from occurring and only delays the inevitable.
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"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: C.M. Mann]
#11144291 - 09/28/09 02:49 PM (1 month, 23 days ago) |
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That is exactly what I mean. Rewarding failure is detrimental to society. We have stagnant unresponsive markets in America due to the "too big to fail" central economic planning approach. Our auto industry has been "bailed out a couple times. Unions from the American auto makers have an unhealthy amount of influence in politics. The American car companies have become a welfare state unto themselves!
The fallacies inherent in central economic planning are what destroyed the U.S.S.R. Politicians are generally corrupt individuals with dubious "understanding" of economics. It makes no sense whatsoever to allow them to meddle with the market.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11144688 - 09/28/09 03:47 PM (1 month, 23 days ago) |
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The only economy most politicians understand is the economy of votes.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Smackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11145739 - 09/28/09 07:03 PM (1 month, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
The fallacies inherent in central economic planning are what destroyed the U.S.S.R.
This might be true, but it is the fallacies of the free market will be what destroys the U.S.
I love listening libertarians talk about the free market. They talk about the grand ideas of competition reducing costs, an efficient allocation of resources, and proper valuation of good and services all the time. But if I had a dollar for every time a libertarian talked about the assumptions that the free market theory was based on like, free entry and exit from markets, absolute consumer knowledge, efficient labor markets, uniformity of goods, and zero externalizes I would be FLAT BROKE.
And don't even get me started on unions. Under a free market unions have the same right to exist as corporations do.
But of course, all of this is theory. And I find it interesting that if we look at reality, we can see many countries which are vastly more "socialist" than the U.S. that have much better standards of living than the united states, but still have lower unemployment, higher production per unit, and extend virtually the exact same freedoms to the people that the U.S. extends to me.
I of course put socialist in quotes because reasonable and rational government intervention in the market has never been socialist. And if it is, then the U.S. has been a Socialist country from day one.
And getting back to the point, Clinton was a fine moderate president. I didn't like what he signed regarding gay rights, some of his banking deregulation, and handling of Wacco. But Over all I would give him a solid B as President.
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The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
~H. L. Mencken~
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zorbman
Hyperinflation2010
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 4,417
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11146941 - 09/28/09 09:40 PM (1 month, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rewarding failure is detrimental to society. We have stagnant unresponsive markets in America due to the "too big to fail" central economic planning approach.
"Then you will see the rise of the men of the double standard--the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money--the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law--men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims--then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.
"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion--when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing--when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors--when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you--when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice--you may know that your society is doomed."
-Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand
--------------------
My predictions: BushRecession2008 Coming next: Hyperinflation2010.
Ideological balance coming to the Politics mod team in the year 2525. (If man is still alive).
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djmako7
Antitransubstantiationalist
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zorbman]
#11147424 - 09/28/09 11:02 PM (1 month, 23 days ago) |
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Good thing I have some gold. Wont have to worry about a thing when this country falls. I'll by a boat with the gold and sail my way to some uninhabited island.
As for clinton not fucking anything up? Wow have people really forgotten who put us in a recession? I admit the quality of life for Americans was a lot better than his successor but we still had money that was borrowed during bush sr. term for the gulf war.
Why does bill clintons opinion matter? He cant do anything but talk. His lesbian wife hates him so he is useless to this country now.
Now in 96 if I was old enough to vote, I would have voted for ross perot. That guy was a number cruncher. I believe if he was president NOW he could fix this economy and the medicare system.
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Doc_T
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: djmako7]
#11149019 - 09/29/09 08:01 AM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
djmako7 said:
I'll by a boat with the gold and sail my way to some uninhabited island.
Which island? I doubt there's a habitable island that is uninhabited within a thousand miles of anywhere.
And what good is gold if the island has no people? Take toilet paper.
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djmako7
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Doc_T]
#11149739 - 09/29/09 11:08 AM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Doc_T said:
Quote:
djmako7 said:
I'll by a boat with the gold and sail my way to some uninhabited island.
Which island? I doubt there's a habitable island that is uninhabited within a thousand miles of anywhere.
And what good is gold if the island has no people? Take toilet paper.
Well the gold is to buy a boat I wouldnt need to buy anything after the fact and there are several thousand islands near indonesia that doesn't have a human soul on it. If you don't know how to catch your own food or build a fire you'd be fucked but luckily those skills come naturally.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: djmako7]
#11149918 - 09/29/09 11:36 AM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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what's to stop the seller from shooting you and taking the gold, if the
country falls I'm sure there will be some measure of lawlessness
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11150494 - 09/29/09 01:27 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Yrat said:
he actually balanced and reversed the trend of the federal budget. he definitely gets points from me for doing that.
smoke and mirrors
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n4_v46/ai_14885290/
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1385&dat=19970211&id=_GgWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TRUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6843,3732568
http://www.theneweditor.com/index.php?/archives/3063-The-5-Trillion-Surplus-The-Myth-that-Refuses-to-Die.html
there's plenty of articles still being written about the myths of the clinton budget
Ummm - did you read any of the articles you posted??? Not a single one of them disproves the Clinton surplus.
1. The first article was printed in 1994, LONG before there was ever a budget surplus. The author claims a balanced budget isn't possible because of proposed spending increases. He fails to understand that a balanced budget can also come from increased tax revenue.
2. The second article, printed in 1997, makes exactly the same mistake.
3. The 3rd article simply claims the Clinton surplus is a myth, but doesn't provide any support to that claim.
Please try again.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
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Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11150514 - 09/29/09 01:30 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Yrat said:
he actually balanced and reversed the trend of the federal budget. he definitely gets points from me for doing that.
smoke and mirrors
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n4_v46/ai_14885290/
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1385&dat=19970211&id=_GgWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TRUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6843,3732568
http://www.theneweditor.com/index.php?/archives/3063-The-5-Trillion-Surplus-The-Myth-that-Refuses-to-Die.html
there's plenty of articles still being written about the myths of the clinton budget
Ummm - did you read any of the articles you posted??? Not a single one of them disproves the Clinton surplus.
1. The first article was printed in 1994, LONG before there was ever a budget surplus. The author claims a balanced budget isn't possible because of proposed spending increases. He fails to understand that a balanced budget can also come from increased tax revenue.
2. The second article, printed in 1997, makes exactly the same mistake.
3. The 3rd article simply claims the Clinton surplus is a myth, but doesn't provide any support to that claim.
Please try again.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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djmako7
Antitransubstantiationalist
Registered: 06/13/06
Posts: 1,322
Loc: A shady spot under a tree
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11150556 - 09/29/09 01:37 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
what's to stop the seller from shooting you and taking the gold, if the
country falls I'm sure there will be some measure of lawlessness
What's to stop them? I dunno my 2 years in the Marines, my kevlar helm and vest my ar15 or my M44.
It will be like the wild wild west the only difference is I can pull a headshot from about 800 yards away with the AR and about 2 miles with the M44 .
Back to topic in 1999 Fannie Mae, the nation’s biggest underwriter of home mortgages, had been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.
For personal future self aggrandizement clinton started making the lowered capital it was simply ponzi scheme.
The subprime mortgages are backed by real money in his last few weeks as president it was republican bill through and dismantling of campaign donations from lehman bros to buy and through and wendy gramm collusion for that allowed the real estate market look towards the real commodity the real money in his life after that.
The real property or capital to blame look towards the ceo of lehman bros to enrons debacle and alan greenspans continuing to expand.
The first real money in this arena also bill through and 2006 fannie and risk ratios that blamewasnt there would be no worldwide banking crisis mortgages there would be.
The phil and to the real property or capital to risk ratios that fire the financial institutions.
During the end of clintons admin the deficit of the country was near 1 trillion already. Back then the media did not report on the economy that much. People get their news from tv and radio and believe pretty much all of it. People were not worried becaus ethey were not fully aware of the economic problem.
Don't forget that bush jr. inherited a recession too.
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Edited by djmako7 (09/29/09 01:54 PM)
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: djmako7]
#11151182 - 09/29/09 03:22 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
djmako7 said:
I can pull a headshot from about 800 yards away with the AR and about 2 miles with the M44
I'ma call bullshit on both those claims, we can save it for one of the other forums though
.
Quote:
Back to topic in 1999 Fannie Mae, the nation�s biggest underwriter of home mortgages, had been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.
he also signed Graham/Leach/Bliley which allowed for the deregulation of
banks allowing them into investments, insurance, and other games. in 94
he signed a bill loosening lending regulations and guaranteeing the bad
loans that many banks were making and others were buying up
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Yrat said:
he actually balanced and reversed the trend of the federal budget. he definitely gets points from me for doing that.
smoke and mirrors
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n4_v46/ai_14885290/
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1385&dat=19970211&id=_GgWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TRUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6843,3732568
http://www.theneweditor.com/index.php?/archives/3063-The-5-Trillion-Surplus-The-Myth-that-Refuses-to-Die.html
there's plenty of articles still being written about the myths of the clinton budget
Ummm - did you read any of the articles you posted??? Not a single one of them disproves the Clinton surplus.
1. The first article was printed in 1994, LONG before there was ever a budget surplus. The author claims a balanced budget isn't possible because of proposed spending increases. He fails to understand that a balanced budget can also come from increased tax revenue.
2. The second article, printed in 1997, makes exactly the same mistake.
3. The 3rd article simply claims the Clinton surplus is a myth, but doesn't provide any support to that claim.
Please try again.
first explains why there should have been a windfall
the second was a misposted link, it should have been this
http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16
the 3rd shows that the dems are still trying to claim the surplus, as I
had stated, it's still being talked about
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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 Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Smackshadow]
#11151302 - 09/29/09 03:39 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Horseshit. We don't have a free market in America, we haven't for quite some time. I realize most folk don't even bother to research the economics that libertarians study. Mises.org has books in pdf. form for you to read and commentary on current economic events from an Austrian perspective. You would do well to check that out. If you disagree with free market economics then we can certainly debate it honestly and figure out what's true.
Frederic Bastiat (circa 1801-1850) is a good fellow to read up on. His "That Which is Seen and that Which is not Seen" is an excellent place to start in beginning to understand the costs of big government spending.
Edited by Mr.Al (09/29/09 03:40 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11151549 - 09/29/09 04:15 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
first explains why there should have been a windfall
the second was a misposted link, it should have been this
http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16
the 3rd shows that the dems are still trying to claim the surplus, as I
had stated, it's still being talked about
The first and last points still don't show that Clinton failed to have a balanced budget, but the new link you posted makes an interesting argument.
It says that under Clinton, social security took in more money than it needed, and the Government used that excess to pay down the public debt (as it always had before). But it argues that this excess shouldn't have been credited to Clinton; instead, it should have remained in Social Security so that future presidents who have a social security shortage can use the Clinton surplus without being penalized themselves. I'm not a Government accountant, so I can't say whose accounting methodology is correct. However, it seems a bit unfair to say that Clinton shouldn't get credit for his social security surplus.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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djmako7
Antitransubstantiationalist
Registered: 06/13/06
Posts: 1,322
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11151715 - 09/29/09 04:44 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
I'ma call bullshit on both those claims, we can save it for one of the other forums though
The Marines train us that way. They teach you in bootcamp one shot one kill from 1,000 yards. It may not be a headshot but most likely a lethal shot from 1000 yards. <--- This is a requirement to graduate from bootcamp.
The M44 range is 2 and a half miles. It is a sniper rifle.
Ok so looks like the Marine corps is going soft because it is now 500 yards to graduate, before it was a half mile.
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Edited by djmako7 (09/29/09 04:53 PM)
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Seuss
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: djmako7]
#11151977 - 09/29/09 05:26 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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> The M44 range is 2 and a half miles. It is a sniper rifle.
It fires a .308 round (7.62x54mmR actually) and has an effective range of around 800 meters with optical scope and around two thirds of that with iron sights. Last time I checked, 2.5 miles was a bit over 4000 meters. Just because a bullet can travel that far does not mean that you can fire it accurately that far.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The first and last points still don't show that Clinton failed to have a balanced budget, but the new link you posted makes an interesting argument.
I've explained the first and last, the intent wasnt to prove anything
but to further explain the numerous sources of money, budget cuts, etc,
unfortunately clinton decided to take extra $70bn, double it, toss in a
little more gravy and give it to his friends in banking
Quote:
However, it seems a bit unfair to say that Clinton shouldn't get credit for his social security surplus.
it's not clintons surplus, it belonged to the people that earned the
money and their methodology of paying down debt is flawed, one of the
reasons SSI is struggling, not to mention that an SSI surplus isnt a
budget surplus and it certainly didnt reach the trillions that dems are
claiming existed pre-bush
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: djmako7]
#11152216 - 09/29/09 06:11 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
djmako7 said:
The Marines train us that way. They teach you in bootcamp one shot one kill from 1,000 yards. It may not be a headshot but most likely a lethal shot from 1000 yards. <--- This is a requirement to graduate from bootcamp.
no... I spent 8 years in the army, 6 of those was with the 5th special
forces, 101st airborne, I've served in 4 theaters of combat, I qualified
as expert in bootcamp, in which you have to hit 36 of 40 targets with
open sights to qualify, 4 of those targets are at the 300m mark which is
as far as the military expects any proficient shooter to shoot. the
qualifications for the army and marines is the same
qualifications for a sniper is much different and I'll let you know now
that the effective range of the 5.56 NATO is a maximum of 600 meters,
after that the bullet will bounce off a jacket, at 800 meters that
bullet will experience more than 30 feet of drop, at 800 meters you have
to be able to judge windage which can change several times prior to
hitting that target in addition to elevation to compensate for gravity
Quote:
The M44 range is 2 and a half miles. It is a sniper rifle.
Ok so looks like the Marine corps is going soft because it is now 500 yards to graduate, before it was a half mile.
the range of the .50BMG 7000m, the effective range is 2400m when fired
from the M107, well under that 'range' you claim for a long .30cal, for
the record, the longest recorded sniper kill was at 2300m with the TAC-50 bolt action by a canadian
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11152381 - 09/29/09 06:33 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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I'm curious. How big is the target you are expected to hit with open sights at 300M? Because at 300M without a scope a cat is a rumor, a goat is a guess and a man is a prayer.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Prisoner#1
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Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11152553 - 09/29/09 06:56 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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you act like it's something special... a bunch of silly arabs hit a couple of skinny buildings from more than 100 miles away
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11152631 - 09/29/09 07:13 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Are you riding them bullets?
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11152761 - 09/29/09 07:39 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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many can hit a man sized target at 300 meters, most shoot the distance for qualifying at 200-250m
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11152774 - 09/29/09 07:42 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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I was wondering. I don't think I can see a cat at 300M.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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crookedjunk
Ben of A&E's "Intervention"
Registered: 09/28/09
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11155403 - 09/30/09 05:27 AM (1 month, 21 days ago) |
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how did a thread about bill clinton become a thread about shooting cats?
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
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 Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11158022 - 09/30/09 03:37 PM (1 month, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
I was wondering. I don't think I can see a cat at 300M.
Cats are sneaky. A target silhouette is easily recognizable but blurry at 300 meters if you're near sighted. If you have good eyesight it is clear. You can hit something at 300 meters if you have a good steady position, a nice sight picture, practice breath control, and a good trigger squeeze (not pull). The shot should kind of surprise you and it is a good idea to be deliberate with the trigger squeeze.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11158154 - 09/30/09 04:05 PM (1 month, 21 days ago) |
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Oh I know how to shoot and my distance vision is still excellent. I just wondered what size target was being discussed at 300M. That's a good distance and something the size of a cat would be entirely obliterated by any iron sight.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11158221 - 09/30/09 04:17 PM (1 month, 21 days ago) |
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I put the very top of the front sight post center mass.
What exactly do you have against cats?
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zorbman
Hyperinflation2010
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 4,417
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11158258 - 09/30/09 04:23 PM (1 month, 21 days ago) |
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Any opinions on what is the best cat food?
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My predictions: BushRecession2008 Coming next: Hyperinflation2010.
Ideological balance coming to the Politics mod team in the year 2525. (If man is still alive).
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11158327 - 09/30/09 04:37 PM (1 month, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
I put the very top of the front sight post center mass.
What exactly do you have against cats?
Usually too lean for a good 'cue.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 13,251
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zorbman]
#11158598 - 09/30/09 05:20 PM (1 month, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said:
Any opinions on what is the best cat food?
Other cats.
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Join The N.R.A.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11159315 - 09/30/09 07:05 PM (1 month, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
I was wondering. I don't think I can see a cat at 300M.
Cats are sneaky.
much like bill clinton
see, back on topic
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zorbman]
#11165343 - 10/01/09 05:57 PM (1 month, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said:
Any opinions on what is the best cat food?
The stuff they like most probably has the highest profit margin. I would like to see if there were some homemade recipes that were more cost effective.
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Heffy
journeyman
Registered: 08/30/04
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11165421 - 10/01/09 06:06 PM (1 month, 20 days ago) |
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Anything made of primarily meat is a sure bet. Grain based pet foods are bullshit.
In future I will probably feed my (meat eating)animals mostly unseasoned meat scraps. I think it will be healthier for them than eating mass produced, grain based, pet foods.
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crookedjunk
Ben of A&E's "Intervention"
Registered: 09/28/09
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Loc: pittsburgh, pa
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Heffy]
#11167791 - 10/02/09 01:15 AM (1 month, 20 days ago) |
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the grain keeps their poop regular
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crookedjunk
Ben of A&E's "Intervention"
Registered: 09/28/09
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: crookedjunk]
#11167802 - 10/02/09 01:17 AM (1 month, 20 days ago) |
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plus if you feed them nothing but meat scraps you'll spoil them and they won't eat cat food. you won't always have enough spare meat around.
Feeding meat scraps is an option only for rich people. The common man must feed his cats some grain-based cat food.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11169299 - 10/02/09 11:18 AM (1 month, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
it's not clintons surplus, it belonged to the people that earned the money and their methodology of paying down debt is flawed, one of the reasons SSI is struggling, not to mention that an SSI surplus isnt a budget surplus and it certainly didnt reach the trillions that dems are claiming existed pre-bush
Again, whether or not Clinton should claim the SSI surplus is an accounting question, but a surplus was achieved under Clinton's watch. The reason SSI is struggling is because Bush intentionally tried to kill it by cutting taxes on the rich. It can be fixed again simply by eliminating the SSI wage cap which gives the wealthy a huge break on SSI payments:
The Future Social Security Crisis: How Can It Be Avoided?
Pretty easy, huh? This solution doesn't even require the rich to pay a larger percentage of SSI, only the same percentage as everyone else.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Registered: 05/01/08
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There was a surplus under Clinton, because of the Reagan policies.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
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Really....
"Taxpayers on the hook for $59 trillion"....
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-05-28-federal-budget_N.htm
What people often don't see is that social welfare (socialist programs)is bankrupting America. It is not capitalism that is failing. Government welfare, central economic planning, and the central bank ("federal reserve") is screwing up the economy.
What we see is that the poorer people become, the more handouts they ask for from the government. The handouts make the situation worse...
Our present economic system is not sustainable.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11171498 - 10/02/09 07:05 PM (1 month, 19 days ago) |
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Taxpayers on the hook for a googley googleplex
Since there is no end in sight for social security and expected life span continues to go up with no change in the age of eligibility there is no doubt that the taxpayers are on the hook for more dollars than there are particles in the universe, which is, unlike entitlement programs, finite.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11172436 - 10/02/09 11:05 PM (1 month, 19 days ago) |
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Well, I threw out a workable solution.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
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Horse crap. You can't find the TRILLIONS of dollars to fund the socialist welfare programs because the money does not exist yet.
The "solution" you propose is a drop in the bucket compared to the unfunded social welfare obligation, dude.
It could be that there are plans to just end Social Security and Medicare (perhaps others...). The government states that they don't count the unfunded welfare obligations because they can cut the funding whenever they see feel the need to.
You need to look at the details to discern how broke this country is.......
How are we dealing with massive debt by record levels of deficit spending.
Why are some people in denial about the OBVIOUS incompetency of the current president?
Edited by Mr.Al (10/03/09 09:43 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11178446 - 10/04/09 12:49 AM (1 month, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Horse crap. You can't find the TRILLIONS of dollars to fund the socialist welfare programs because the money does not exist yet.
If we eliminate the SSI wage cap, that would bring in an extra $4.646 trillion. Enough to cover the shortfall (see the chart in the link I posted above).
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
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We would need a lot more than 4.5 trillion to cover social welfare obligations. People have estimated it anywhere from 50 to 100 trillion to cover us through the boomer generation. Can you see how the money is not there no matter what we cut in the budget? Also, deficit spending is now at record levels so I don't see any budget cuts in federal spending anytime soon.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=88851
Edited by Mr.Al (10/04/09 03:29 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Horse crap. You can't find the TRILLIONS of dollars to fund the socialist welfare programs because the money does not exist yet.
If we eliminate the SSI wage cap, that would bring in an extra $4.646 trillion. Enough to cover the shortfall (see the chart in the link I posted above).
Only if you don't increase benefits for those who make increased contributions. You do know that the benefits you get are directly related to what you pay in, right? You are just raising taxes on the wealthy to pay for the losers. Again.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11180295 - 10/04/09 12:57 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
We would need a lot more than 4.5 trillion to cover social welfare obligations. People have estimated it anywhere from 50 to 100 trillion to cover us through the boomer generation.
The rest of the money will come from normal SSI contributions. I addressed how we could cover the predicted SSI shortage.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
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Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11180301 - 10/04/09 12:58 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Only if you don't increase benefits for those who make increased contributions.
Correct.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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zorbman
Hyperinflation2010
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 4,417
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: C.M. Mann]
#11180410 - 10/04/09 01:20 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
C.M. Mann said:
There was a surplus under Clinton, because of the Reagan policies.
That's the first time I've heard that one.
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My predictions: BushRecession2008 Coming next: Hyperinflation2010.
Ideological balance coming to the Politics mod team in the year 2525. (If man is still alive).
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11182212 - 10/04/09 06:27 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Horse crap. You can't find the TRILLIONS of dollars to fund the socialist welfare programs because the money does not exist yet.
If we eliminate the SSI wage cap, that would bring in an extra $4.646 trillion. Enough to cover the shortfall (see the chart in the link I posted above).
Only if you don't increase benefits for those who make increased contributions. You do know that the benefits you get are directly related to what you pay in, right? You are just raising taxes on the wealthy to pay for the losers. Again.
Right. So it is just another hand in the pocket of the rich who already pay almost all of the taxes. Tell me again how soc sec was supposed to be money invested for retirement. Remember Al Gore's "lock box"?
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11182403 - 10/04/09 06:53 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
So it is just another hand in the pocket of the rich who already pay almost all of the taxes.
I offered a a solution to the Social Security problem. If you're so worried that the rich will have to pay the same percentage as the poor, then nothing will be fixed. If we agree that everyone should pay the same percentage, then the problem is solved.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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If everyone pays the same percentage, should they also be able to collect the same benefits?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Redstorm]
#11182507 - 10/04/09 07:04 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Not if you want to save Social Security.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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THC Titan
Spoonman
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 574
Loc: FL, USA
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Redstorm]
#11182516 - 10/04/09 07:06 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Oh no, won't someone think of the tax-burdened upper 1% and their ever-dwindling share of the nation's income..
??
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: THC Titan]
#11183536 - 10/04/09 09:12 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
THC Titan said:
Oh no, won't someone think of the tax-burdened upper 1% and their ever-dwindling share of the nation's income..
??
That looks fine until the pick up shop and move all their businesses to countries that don't tax the fuck out of them. There go all the jobs their businesses provided.
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MisterMuscaria
Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 12,437
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Bill Clinton privatized water. Anyone who privatized water is not a friend of mine.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
We would need a lot more than 4.5 trillion to cover social welfare obligations. People have estimated it anywhere from 50 to 100 trillion to cover us through the boomer generation.
The rest of the money will come from normal SSI contributions. I addressed how we could cover the predicted SSI shortage.
I see..... So that 4.5 trillion wouldn't cover us through the boomer generation. It kind of doesn't matter because if M1 increases dramatically the money paid out for social welfare would be worthless anyway.
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/money-supply
In spite of the fact that banks were using bailout money to buy out competitors, M1 has spiked recently. We have to keep an eye on that.
It's unfortunate but the federal government is doing exactly what it shouldn't do to fix anything. Central economic planning "at work"...
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11184146 - 10/04/09 11:05 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
I see..... So that 4.5 trillion wouldn't cover us through the boomer generation. It kind of doesn't matter because if M1 increases dramatically the money paid out for social welfare would be worthless anyway.
I don't understand the relationship between your graph and Social Security shortages. SSI revenue is collected by a tax on individual income up to $100k. As I pointed out, the projected shortage could be made up by charging SSI tax on income over $100k. Help me understand how the graph you posted factors into this. Thanks.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 21 hours, 2 minutes
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> I don't understand the relationship between your graph and Social Security shortages.
Saved money loses value over time due to inflation. Social security is "saved money". Unless you account for the loss in value of tax money collected today that is paid out tomorrow, you will have a shortfall when the bill comes due.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Seuss]
#11186372 - 10/05/09 11:37 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Thanks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the social security trust fund is ficticious. The Government doesn't actually save any money for the future. It takes what it needs from FICA each year, and any leftover is used to cover the deficit. So long as the Government collects enough FICA to cover its current obligations, then things are good. If there is a projected shortage, then eliminating the wage cap on FICA would bring in enough extra money to cover that shortage.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Thanks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the social security trust fund is ficticious. The Government doesn't actually save any money for the future. It takes what it needs from FICA each year, and any leftover is used to cover the deficit. So long as the Government collects enough FICA to cover its current obligations, then things are good. If there is a projected shortage, then eliminating the wage cap on FICA would bring in enough extra money to cover that shortage.
It is correct that it is a Ponzi scheme. Apparently your answer to the Ponzi scheme is to make it even bigger. What sheer genius. The government has essentially embezzled vast sums of money by failing to fund soc sec and you want to give them more. Here's a better idea. Raise the retirement age. When it was originally enacted life expectancy was just slightly older than the retirement age. And then start to wind it down by allowing people to opt out. No sane person will stay in. Why do you think the government should legislate that people be forced to act insanely?
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: THC Titan]
#11186515 - 10/05/09 11:59 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
THC Titan said:
Oh no, won't someone think of the tax-burdened upper 1% and their ever-dwindling share of the nation's income..
??
It isn't the nation's income, Karl. It is the income of the people in the nation.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11186789 - 10/05/09 12:43 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
It is correct that it is a Ponzi scheme. Apparently your answer to the Ponzi scheme is to make it even bigger. What sheer genius. The government has essentially embezzled vast sums of money by failing to fund soc sec and you want to give them more. Here's a better idea. Raise the retirement age. When it was originally enacted life expectancy was just slightly older than the retirement age. And then start to wind it down by allowing people to opt out. No sane person will stay in. Why do you think the government should legislate that people be forced to act insanely?
All that needs to be done is to eliminate the wage cap, and it's no longer something that is in danger of going broke. Raising retirement age isn't a bad idea, and should also be considered as a cost saving measure.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
It is correct that it is a Ponzi scheme. Apparently your answer to the Ponzi scheme is to make it even bigger. What sheer genius. The government has essentially embezzled vast sums of money by failing to fund soc sec and you want to give them more. Here's a better idea. Raise the retirement age. When it was originally enacted life expectancy was just slightly older than the retirement age. And then start to wind it down by allowing people to opt out. No sane person will stay in. Why do you think the government should legislate that people be forced to act insanely?
All that needs to be done is to eliminate the wage cap, and it's no longer something that is in danger of going broke. Raising retirement age isn't a bad idea, and should also be considered as a cost saving measure.
Which is nothing more nor less than a tax increase which will take more money out of private hands and put it in government control. But that is nothing for you.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11187394 - 10/05/09 02:32 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Which is nothing more nor less than a tax increase which will take more money out of private hands and put it in government control. But that is nothing for you.
It'd be about a $3,000/year tax increase for me. Again, I think it's dumb that everyone making under $100k pays 6% FICA, while those making more pay a smaller percentage. But we can argue back and forth about what we believe until we're blue in the face. All that really matters is what our elected officials believe.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
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Wouldn't a removal of the FICA cap also increase the tax burden of businesses?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Which is nothing more nor less than a tax increase which will take more money out of private hands and put it in government control. But that is nothing for you.
It'd be about a $3,000/year tax increase for me. Again, I think it's dumb that everyone making under $100k pays 6% FICA, while those making more pay a smaller percentage. But we can argue back and forth about what we believe until we're blue in the face. All that really matters is what our elected officials believe.
Well, first of all, they don't pay 6%. They pay 12.4%, half of which is hidden if you work for a paycheck. But when your benefits are calculated you get back based on what you paid in during your lifetime. You want to eliminate that and cap benefits. You also want to increase taxes on everyone who makes more than 106,000 a year by 12.4% on their last dollar. With no chance of ever getting that money in increased bennies. That isn't just a tax increase. That is a complete Columbian police station backroom beating. Those people already pay almost all the taxes and just because you can't stop spending you want to fuck them like no one has ever fucked them before.
Please, just go live in Cuba. Nobody has any money there, you'll be happy and over your sense of resentment.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11187808 - 10/05/09 03:41 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Please, just go live in Cuba. Nobody has any money there, you'll be happy and over your sense of resentment.
Show me a country with lower tax rates than the US that is successful. Plenty of countries do just fine with higher tax rates (Western Europe).
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Please, just go live in Cuba. Nobody has any money there, you'll be happy and over your sense of resentment.
Show me a country with lower tax rates than the US that is successful. Plenty of countries do just fine with higher tax rates (Western Europe).
The welfare state is sure working swell over in Europe. America became great by doing things differently. Fuck imitating euro-trash.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11187951 - 10/05/09 04:00 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
The welfare state is sure working swell over in Europe. America became great by doing things differently. Fuck imitating euro-trash.
If they weren't doing so well, I'd say fuck them too. Norwegians now make more than Americans. And get better benefits.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
The welfare state is sure working swell over in Europe. America became great by doing things differently. Fuck imitating euro-trash.
If they weren't doing so well, I'd say fuck them too. Norwegians now make more than Americans. And get better benefits.
Upon looking at Norway it does appear that they are heavy into the welfare state way of life. Their economy isn't fucked yet.
It takes time for socialist welfare to inflict serious damage to the economy.
Can you explain how welfare helps strengthen the economy?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11188221 - 10/05/09 04:41 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Can you explain how welfare helps strengthen the economy?
I'm actually not claiming it strengthens the economy. I'm saying civilized nations should (and do) have some forms of welfare, and that they manage to get by with it just fine.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Can you explain how welfare helps strengthen the economy?
I'm actually not claiming it strengthens the economy. I'm saying civilized nations should (and do) have some forms of welfare, and that they manage to get by with it just fine.
If it does not strengthen the economy then I would surmise that it weakens it. The problem with welfare from the government is that politicians like to bribe people with more of it over time. It places a financial drain on the producers of wealth in the economy and gives free shit to those who are not productive. Punishing productivity and rewarding sloth is not a recipe for prosperity or freedom.
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crookedjunk
Ben of A&E's "Intervention"
Registered: 09/28/09
Posts: 340
Loc: pittsburgh, pa
Last seen: 14 days, 11 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11188636 - 10/05/09 05:23 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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I suppose you would rather go back to the sharecropper system then.
Disgusting.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: crookedjunk]
#11188705 - 10/05/09 05:32 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
crookedjunk said:
I suppose you would rather go back to the sharecropper system then.
Disgusting.
What are you talking about?
I also don't like welfare because the government uses it as bribery. It's like "Don't fucking complain when we take away your freedom and anything else we do that you don't like because we're giving you free money."
Edited by Mr.Al (10/05/09 05:32 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11191244 - 10/06/09 12:22 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
What are you talking about?
I also don't like welfare because the government uses it as bribery. It's like "Don't fucking complain when we take away your freedom and anything else we do that you don't like because we're giving you free money."
What are YOU talking about?
I hear this all the time about "taking away freedom". I'm as much for personal freedom as anyone. Taxes always have and always will be around, so if you're talking about tax freedom, you're living in a fantasy land.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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And here we have yet again someone arguing that because there is any of something that means more is completely justified. In this case taxation. No, that is crap reasoning.
All taxation involves a restriction of freedom. Every fucking penny. When that penny is taken away you are no longer free to spend it as you see fit. The more pennies you lose, the more freedom you lose. The IRS is the single greatest agent of oppression in the US.
Norway is a socialist beacon of success, right? Guess why. Hint, it isn't because of socialism:
Quote:
Norway is the world's fifth-largest oil exporter and third largest gas exporter, providing much of western Europe's crude oil and gas requirements. In 2006, Norwegian oil and gas exports accounted for over 50% of total merchandise exports.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3421.htm
5 million people and a workforce of 2.5M, almost all of the same religious and ethnic group, with very little immigration.
Quote:
"The export value for natural gas reached 21.2 billion Norwegian crowns ($3.08 billion), which is the highest ever recorded," Statistics Norway said in a statement. The value of Norway's crude oil exports was 18 billion crowns in January.
Excluding oil and gas exports, the trade deficit slimmed to 9.9 billion crowns in January from 11.7 billion in December, but was up from 9.1 billion in January a year earlier. Norway's petroleum sector accounts for about a quarter of GDP and about half of total exports.
http://in.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idINLG14118920090216
Every man, woman and child there is spotted $1,000 in oil exports, which account for 25% of their GDP. That will cover up a lot of Marxist sins.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: crookedjunk]
#11192307 - 10/06/09 08:44 AM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
crookedjunk said:
I suppose you would rather go back to the sharecropper system then.
it had many benefits including encouraging the lessee to work harder for
a larger harvest while having very few drawbacks, a sharecropper gets
use of the land and equipment of the land owner in exchange for his work
and a portion of his crop, the risks are the same for both parties, the
other option is the rental of land and equipment in which the lessee
keeps the whole crop but has to pay out of pocket for everything or they
are simply employees of the land owner and get none of the crop but a
meager wage instead.. ag wages are typically the lowest in the nation
if we turned welfare into workfare it would benefit the taxpayer, the
government and the recipient, the recipient wouldnt be getting a free
paycheck for watching oprah but would instead learn the value of that
paycheck while the tax payers would reap the benefits of that recipients
labor
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11192890 - 10/06/09 10:55 AM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
And here we have yet again someone arguing that because there is any of something that means more is completely justified. In this case taxation. No, that is crap reasoning.
The proposals are to increase taxes on the wealthy closer to where they were before we started having these massive deficits which all started under Reagan. If you're making under $100k, don't worry about it, you won't be affected. If you're making over $100k, then an extra few percent tax isn't going to break you, and I don't feel sorry for you, no matter how much whining you do.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Norway is a socialist beacon of success, right? Guess why. Hint, it isn't because of socialism:
.
.
.
Every man, woman and child there is spotted $1,000 in oil exports, which account for 25% of their GDP. That will cover up a lot of Marxist sins.
The United States produces over three times as much oil as Norway. How much are Americans spotted? Nothing? Too bad, since you clearly think it would help.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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We produce 3 times as much and have 60 times the population. Are you a comedian?
And of course you don't care that the wealthy pay almost all of the taxes and what's a little bit more. Because you aren't one. I think we should have a 100% tax on whatever income range you're in. We can narrow it down so it's only you. Who cares? It's only one schmuck being screwed.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11193576 - 10/06/09 12:53 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
We produce 3 times as much and have 60 times the population. Are you a comedian?
We don't even get $50.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
And of course you don't care that the wealthy pay almost all of the taxes and what's a little bit more. Because you aren't one.
I just said I'd be willing to give an extra $3k per year in order to save social security. But my $3k alone won't save it; it will take everyone else who earns $100k+.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
I think we should have a 100% tax on whatever income range you're in. We can narrow it down so it's only you. Who cares? It's only one schmuck being screwed.
I believe the more you earn, the more you should keep. But if the poor pay 6% FICA, then so should the rich. Tax breaks on the rich are bankrupting the country. You're the comedian here.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 43,006
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 10 hours, 44 minutes
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Quote:
But if the poor pay 6% FICA, then so should the rich.
And if the poor receive benefits in exchange for all taxed income, so should the rich, right?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Redstorm]
#11193781 - 10/06/09 01:25 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
But if the poor pay 6% FICA, then so should the rich.
And if the poor receive benefits in exchange for all taxed income, so should the rich, right?
Social Security is for those that need it. If the rich have no money when they are old, then yes, they'll get it too.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
We produce 3 times as much and have 60 times the population. Are you a comedian?
We don't even get $50.
Of course not. We are a net importer of oil. Duh.Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
And of course you don't care that the wealthy pay almost all of the taxes and what's a little bit more. Because you aren't one.
I just said I'd be willing to give an extra $3k per year in order to save social security. But my $3k alone won't save it; it will take everyone else who earns $100k+.
Wow, what a guy. Here's what your proposed tax increases are
200K........$12,000
300K........$24,000
400K........$36,000
$3,000 you want to pay. What a fucking prince.Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
I think we should have a 100% tax on whatever income range you're in. We can narrow it down so it's only you. Who cares? It's only one schmuck being screwed.
I believe the more you earn, the more you should keep. But if the poor pay 6% FICA, then so should the rich. Tax breaks on the rich are bankrupting the country. You're the comedian here.
Tax breaks on the rich? What tax breaks would those be, oh great unicorn hunter? The rich pay far more in taxes proportionately to their income than the poor. And it has only gone up since these fallacious tax "cuts" were enacted under Bush. The rich aren't bankrupting the country. The bums are.
As far as Soc Sec:
The poor pay 12.4%. Everybody up to $106,000 pays that. Your benefits at retirement are tied to your lifetime payments. You want to increase the payment ceiling without a benefit increase. You want to increase taxes on the wealthy by, holy fucking shit, 12.4%!!!!!! That's draconian. Just to perpetuate a Ponzi scheme that has grown way beyond anyone's original intent.
As a nod to saving this fiasco I will agree to forego any benefits if I never have to pay another dime into it. I'm 52. They can keep the fucking money they already hosed me out of and shove it up their commie asses but stop asking for more. How's that?
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
But if the poor pay 6% FICA, then so should the rich.
And if the poor receive benefits in exchange for all taxed income, so should the rich, right?
Social Security is for those that need it. If the rich have no money when they are old, then yes, they'll get it too.
Bullshit, Karl. Everybody gets retirement benefits from Soc Sec regardless of need and based solely on what they paid in. And it isn't 6%. It's 12%.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11194270 - 10/06/09 02:44 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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More analysis of the complete and utter cornhole Falcon would like to inflict on those making more money than him:
Small business
Owner makes 1,000,000
10 employees make 200,000 each
40 employees make 50,000 each
If we eliminate the ceiling on income for soc sec one of two things will happen. Either the employees in the 200,000 range pay an additional 12% on their last 100,000 or they pay 6% and the employer pays the 6%. First scenario:
Owner pays the 6% contribution:
His tax goes up $108,000 plus 10 times 6% of $100,000 or $60,000 for a total of $168,000 (in addition to the $300,000+ he already pays). (Call an ambulance!!!!!!!)
Each 200K guy's taxes go up $6,000 for $60,000.
But no owner will ever do that
Or he cuts the employee pay by the employer contribution:
Owner tax goes up $108,000 (in addition to the $300,000+ he already pays) (Whoa!!!!!!)
Each 200K employee's tax goes up $6,000 (times 10 is $60,000) and his income goes down $6,000.
But the employees don't pay federal, state or local tax on that lost $60,000. Lost tax revenue on guys in that tax bracket varies by state but it is $20,000 to $25,000. Ponzi tax up, other tax down, income down, loss of self esteem, increased suicide, cats and dogs sleeping together.
This is no small tax, it is a complete and total rape. Raperape to Whoopie.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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 Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11195817 - 10/06/09 06:35 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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It would work out fine. If the employer is taxed more then he will be forced to cut his workforce and/or cut wages.
Either way there is more welfare to go around and increased unemployment/drop in wages is blamed on "greedy capitalist business owners" instead of government!
http://mises.org/story/3752
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11196088 - 10/06/09 07:19 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Yeah. That's the ticket.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11197782 - 10/06/09 11:27 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Wow, what a guy. Here's what your proposed tax increases are
200K........$12,000
300K........$24,000
400K........$36,000
$3,000 you want to pay. What a fucking prince.
Trust me, I'd MUCH rather pay $36k or even $100k, because that means I'd be taking home a shitload more money.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
The rich pay far more in taxes proportionately to their income than the poor.
Waaaa!  It's one hell of a lot easier for someone making $1M per year to pay 5% than it is for someone making $20k. Duh.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
And it has only gone up since these fallacious tax "cuts" were enacted under Bush. The rich aren't bankrupting the country. The bums are.
Do you know how much Wall Street is getting from the taxpayer??? It's one hell of a lot more than the "bums".
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
You want to increase taxes on the wealthy by, holy fucking shit, 12.4%!!!!!! That's draconian.
Oh my god you're a whiner.
You say it's "draconian" for the rich to pay 12%, but that's exactly what the poor are paying. What planet are you from to expect sympathy for asking the rich to pay as much as the poor??? Unbelievable.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
As a nod to saving this fiasco I will agree to forego any benefits if I never have to pay another dime into it. I'm 52. They can keep the fucking money they already hosed me out of and shove it up their commie asses but stop asking for more. How's that?
Your proposal doesn't save social security. Mine does.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11197804 - 10/06/09 11:29 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Everybody gets retirement benefits from Soc Sec regardless of need and based solely on what they paid in.
You wished. Although that may have been the original intent, everyone knows Social Security never worked that way.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11198028 - 10/07/09 12:03 AM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
It would work out fine. If the employer is taxed more then he will be forced to cut his workforce and/or cut wages.
Either way there is more welfare to go around and increased unemployment/drop in wages is blamed on "greedy capitalist business owners" instead of government!
Of course that would be the case. The employee pays more taxes, and he either accepts it, or goes to work for someone else... where he still pays more taxes, so I guess he'd just have to accept it. Social Security is saved, as the employee is now paying as much FICA as his lower income coworkers. Sucks being treated like the lower income guys have always been treated (6% FICA), doesn't it?
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11198064 - 10/07/09 12:08 AM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
But the employees don't pay federal, state or local tax on that lost $60,000. Lost tax revenue on guys in that tax bracket varies by state but it is $20,000 to $25,000.
That is a good point, and it's your only good point.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Yes let's save all the socialist welfare programs.
Let's have socialist healthcare.
Socialist everything!
Viva Socialism!
We'll pay everyone welfare with money that is worth less than the paper it's printed on!
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11199242 - 10/07/09 08:55 AM (1 month, 14 days ago) |
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hopefully it becomes a welfare state, we can all quit our jobs, collect
welfare and live a better life than the working man... oh wait, there wont
be a working man...
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 21 hours, 2 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11199641 - 10/07/09 10:25 AM (1 month, 14 days ago) |
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> oh wait, there wont be a working man...
That is phase two. The part they don't talk about where the government puts the people to work so that those running the government can continue to live in style.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Everybody gets retirement benefits from Soc Sec regardless of need and based solely on what they paid in.
You wished. Although that may have been the original intent, everyone knows Social Security never worked that way.
What are you talking about? Except for disability benefits that is exactly how it is done. You don't get back enough but what you do get is entirely determined by what you contributed.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Wow, what a guy. Here's what your proposed tax increases are
200K........$12,000
300K........$24,000
400K........$36,000
$3,000 you want to pay. What a fucking prince.
Trust me, I'd MUCH rather pay $36k or even $100k, because that means I'd be taking home a shitload more money.
Why don't you just pay it anyway?Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
The rich pay far more in taxes proportionately to their income than the poor.
Waaaa! It's one hell of a lot easier for someone making $1M per year to pay 5% than it is for someone making $20k. Duh.
Yeah so? And your example is a joke. Someone making 20K pays virtually nothing in federal and state tax. And by that I mean 0%. Someone making a million pays over 40%. You also keep floating this bogus 5% or 6%. It is actually DOUBLE or TRIPLE that. 12.4% Soc sec and 2.9% M/M. Anything else you think they should pay just because they can?Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
And it has only gone up since these fallacious tax "cuts" were enacted under Bush. The rich aren't bankrupting the country. The bums are.
Do you know how much Wall Street is getting from the taxpayer??? It's one hell of a lot more than the "bums".
It is? I doubt it. Of further note, do you know how much in taxes Wall Street pays? Or how much in taxes the bums pay? Do you also know that the banks are rapidly repaying much of the loans back? At a tidy profit to the taxpayer, I might add. This will not be the case with auto companies. Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
You want to increase taxes on the wealthy by, holy fucking shit, 12.4%!!!!!! That's draconian.
Oh my god you're a whiner.
And you are crook. If I go to your house and take 12% of your possessions will you call the police? Of course you will, because you are a crybaby. Boohoo.Quote:
You say it's "draconian" for the rich to pay 12%, but that's exactly what the poor are paying. What planet are you from to expect sympathy for asking the rich to pay as much as the poor??? Unbelievable.
No, it's 12% MORE, on top of the already grotesque taxes they pay. THAT is draconian. Over 50% on their last dollar. They pay way more than the poor. The poor don't pay anything but Soc sec and M/M. Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
As a nod to saving this fiasco I will agree to forego any benefits if I never have to pay another dime into it. I'm 52. They can keep the fucking money they already hosed me out of and shove it up their commie asses but stop asking for more. How's that?
Your proposal doesn't save social security. Mine does.
And again I ask why should we keep this Ponzi scheme afloat? The government steals the money and puts it into the general fund. Maybe if they stopped doing that it could be saved. Maybe if they stopped doing that it would be worth saving. As it is right now it is a complete sham. Raise the retirement age, cut bennies, stop putting receipts in the general fund. Your answer is and always will be take more from those who succeed. Punish and punish and punish success until it can't be punished no more. Some behavior model you got there. Work hard, get fucked.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11200316 - 10/07/09 12:30 PM (1 month, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Yes let's save all the socialist welfare programs.
Let's have socialist healthcare.
Socialist everything!
Viva Socialism!
We'll pay everyone welfare with money that is worth less than the paper it's printed on!
The decline of the dollar has nothing to do with socialism. Do you even know what socialism is? Please look it up. America is not a socialist country by a long shot.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11200330 - 10/07/09 12:33 PM (1 month, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
hopefully it becomes a welfare state, we can all quit our jobs, collect welfare and live a better life than the working man... oh wait, there wont be a working man...
I'm not calling for a welfare state. I'm proposing fixing social security so grandma isn't out on the street. I'm all for welfare reform.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11200692 - 10/07/09 01:30 PM (1 month, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
It's one hell of a lot easier for someone making $1M per year to pay 5% than it is for someone making $20k. Duh.
Yeah so? And your example is a joke. Someone making 20K pays virtually nothing in federal and state tax. And by that I mean 0%. Someone making a million pays over 40%. You also keep floating this bogus 5% or 6%. It is actually DOUBLE or TRIPLE that. 12.4% Soc sec and 2.9% M/M.
It doesn't matter if it's 6% or 12%. It's easier for a millionaire to pay 12% than it is for someone making $20k. That's why we have a progressive tax system for income tax. Social Security is another matter. The solution being proposed isn't even progressive, it's FLAT.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you know how much Wall Street is getting from the taxpayer??? It's one hell of a lot more than the "bums".
It is? I doubt it.
Yes, Wall St got more: 2008 United States federal budget
Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending was $324 billion; much less than the Wall St bailouts.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Of further note, do you know how much in taxes Wall Street pays? Or how much in taxes the bums pay? Do you also know that the banks are rapidly repaying much of the loans back? At a tidy profit to the taxpayer, I might add.
Only some of them are paying it back:
Number of Banks Not Making TARP Payments Skyrockets
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
And you are crook. If I go to your house and take 12% of your possessions will you call the police? Of course you will, because you are a crybaby. Boohoo.
That would be against the law.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
No, it's 12% MORE, on top of the already grotesque taxes they pay. THAT is draconian. Over 50% on their last dollar. They pay way more than the poor. The poor don't pay anything but Soc sec and M/M.
They got by just fine before from 1932 - 1986. Then Reagan implemented tax cuts on the wealthy, and massive deficit spending began in the US.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Your answer is and always will be take more from those who succeed. Punish and punish and punish success until it can't be punished no more. Some behavior model you got there. Work hard, get fucked.
For fuck's sake, quit playing an idiot. I've never suggested that CEOs make the same as fast food cooks. I'm saying if you make more you pay more, but of course you still keep more.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
It's one hell of a lot easier for someone making $1M per year to pay 5% than it is for someone making $20k. Duh.
Yeah so? And your example is a joke. Someone making 20K pays virtually nothing in federal and state tax. And by that I mean 0%. Someone making a million pays over 40%. You also keep floating this bogus 5% or 6%. It is actually DOUBLE or TRIPLE that. 12.4% Soc sec and 2.9% M/M.
It doesn't matter if it's 6% or 12%. It's easier for a millionaire to pay 12% than it is for someone making $20k. That's why we have a progressive tax system for income tax. Social Security is another matter. The solution being proposed isn't even progressive, it's FLAT.
I like to have my facts in order. You? Not so much.
Of course it's easier for them to pay. So what? Why stop there. Tax the rich down to the level where everybody has the same takehome. Why should they have any more at all?
We already have an egregiously unjust progressive taxation wherein the very few pay almost all of the tax bills for the many.Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you know how much Wall Street is getting from the taxpayer??? It's one hell of a lot more than the "bums".
It is? I doubt it.
Yes, Wall St got more: 2008 United States federal budget
Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending was $324 billion; much less than the Wall St bailouts.
LOL. That isn't all the bums got, is it? Now, how much did Wall Street get? In loans. Unlike the bums who aren't paying their mortgages they actually have been paying it back. You like Wiki? I got Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program
Quote:
As of February 9, 2009, $388 billion had been allotted, and $296 billion spent, according to the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget. Among the money committed, includes:
For the math challenged 296 is less than 324, which was a phony number anyway.
Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Of further note, do you know how much in taxes Wall Street pays? Or how much in taxes the bums pay? Do you also know that the banks are rapidly repaying much of the loans back? At a tidy profit to the taxpayer, I might add.
Only some of them are paying it back:
Number of Banks Not Making TARP Payments Skyrockets
Well no shit. They haven't all paid it back in the less than 12 months. What a stunner. Most of the banks on that list have nothing to do with Wall Street, by the way.Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
And you are crook. If I go to your house and take 12% of your possessions will you call the police? Of course you will, because you are a crybaby. Boohoo.
That would be against the law.
So are compelling soc sec contributions beyond 12% of $106,000. What's your point? You want to change a law, I want to change a law.Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
No, it's 12% MORE, on top of the already grotesque taxes they pay. THAT is draconian. Over 50% on their last dollar. They pay way more than the poor. The poor don't pay anything but Soc sec and M/M.
They got by just fine before from 1932 - 1986. Then Reagan implemented tax cuts on the wealthy, and massive deficit spending began in the US.
Did they? One could quite well argue that those tax rates were quite damaging even then. If tax revenue goes up is it a tax cut? That's the beginning of deficit spending? Under Reagan? Now you're just being a buffoon.Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Your answer is and always will be take more from those who succeed. Punish and punish and punish success until it can't be punished no more. Some behavior model you got there. Work hard, get fucked.
For fuck's sake, quit playing an idiot. I've never suggested that CEOs make the same as fast food cooks. I'm saying if you make more you pay more, but of course you still keep more.
We already pay more. Disproportionately more. Hideously, flagrantly, grotesquely, disproportionately more. So much more that I could hire a harem of welfare queens and get market rate blow jobs 5 times a day, every day for less.
I think that all the tax increases should fall on people making between 100K and 200K. There's so many more of them it would be easy. The few at the top have been fucked to death already.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
hopefully it becomes a welfare state, we can all quit our jobs, collect welfare and live a better life than the working man... oh wait, there wont be a working man...
I'm not calling for a welfare state. I'm proposing fixing social security so grandma isn't out on the street. I'm all for welfare reform.
why not let grandma have the option of cashing out and investing on her
own, it's obvious that SSA earns no interest on the billions it takes in
each year, they supposedly spend the surplus on the national debt but
then in years like this where 30 million people are out of work they
have shortfalls and start cutting benefits for people, if grandma
decides to give it to the grandkids then hopefully they are compassionate
enough to take care of her in her golden years, if not, let poor old
grandma eat the cat food and live in her box by the dumpsters
with the current system, no one can live on the $1000/mo that SSI pays,
it's unlikely that any improvements would be made, government is
incapable of doing anything that doesnt benefit it's self or those that
dont contribute to the system
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I've never suggested that CEOs make the same as fast food cooks. I'm saying if you make more you pay more, but of course you still keep more.
it's unfortunate that they have a maximum payout of about $1800/mo, if I
payed in $30k every year I'd still only get $20k/yr during my retirement,
I feel I should get back what I payed in plus a modest interest rate,
obviously government is incapable of handling money properly or we'd be
earning interest off of our money
wanna fix social security, then end the shit
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11203118 - 10/07/09 07:58 PM (1 month, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:It's one hell of a lot easier for someone making $1M per year to pay 5% than it is for someone making $20k. Duh.
Yeah so? And your example is a joke. Someone making 20K pays virtually nothing in federal and state tax. And by that I mean 0%. Someone making a million pays over 40%. You also keep floating this bogus 5% or 6%. It is actually DOUBLE or TRIPLE that. 12.4% Soc sec and 2.9% M/M.
It doesn't matter if it's 6% or 12%. It's easier for a millionaire to pay 12% than it is for someone making $20k. That's why we have a progressive tax system for income tax. Social Security is another matter. The solution being proposed isn't even progressive, it's FLAT.
I like to have my facts in order. You? Not so much.
I was making a generalization there. I could have said "any" rather than 5%, but the number doesn't matter. My point is that it's easier for a wealthy person to pay X% of his income than it is for a poor person to pay X%.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Of course it's easier for them to pay. So what? Why stop there. Tax the rich down to the level where everybody has the same takehome. Why should they have any more at all?
For obvious reasons. People need to be incentivized. So long as people can still become millionaires, we'll see our brightest do their best. If your pay were to go down by 12%, would you take the paycut, or stop working? If you say you'd quit working, then you're not making nearly as much as you claim.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
We already have an egregiously unjust progressive taxation wherein the very few pay almost all of the tax bills for the many.
It's nowhere near what other civilized countries have, nor what we used to have. Stop whining.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
If tax revenue goes up is it a tax cut? That's the beginning of deficit spending? Under Reagan? Now you're just being a buffoon.
Have a look at US tax rates from 1980 to 1988 while Reagan was president: Top US Marginal Income Tax Rates, 1913--2003
And have a look at our deficit spending under Reagan:
Who's the buffoon???
Edit: Here is another link: Reagan and revenue
And let's not forget the Reagan TEFRA tax hike.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (10/07/09 09:45 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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You are. You think Reagan and the Dem Congress of the eighties invented deficit spending, which is monumentally ignorant. Obama and the Dem Congress are in the process of resizing that graph so that the bottom of it will go into this post.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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THC Titan
Spoonman
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 574
Loc: FL, USA
Last seen: 3 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11206505 - 10/08/09 09:12 AM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
You are. You think Reagan and the Dem Congress of the eighties invented deficit spending, which is monumentally ignorant. Obama and the Dem Congress are in the process of resizing that graph so that the bottom of it will go into this post.
It's not an ideological belief, the deficit under Reagan was increased to historic levels and so was peacetime defense spending. Coincidentally, two of the terrible legacies of Reagan that still afflict this country's politics.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Welfare is socialist. Explain how welfare strengthens the economy. I don't think you can because it doesn't. We could get somewhere if we look at economics from a more scientific perspective. I would like to see a nation that maximizes prosperity and personal freedom. I think they go together nicely.
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THC Titan
Spoonman
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 574
Loc: FL, USA
Last seen: 3 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11206742 - 10/08/09 10:08 AM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Welfare is socialist. Explain how welfare strengthens the economy. I don't think you can because it doesn't. We could get somewhere if we look at economics from a more scientific perspective. I would like to see a nation that maximizes prosperity and personal freedom. I think they go together nicely.
In rich developed countries, it is usually socially desirable to have some level of safety net available for the poorest and most needy among us. That doesn't necessarily include all the entitlement programs that are part of the "welfare state", and it is not socialism.
If you're saying there should be zero assistance to anyone, well, I'm sure there's an island in the Caribbean you can call your own where you don't have to get a shit about anyone but yourself, and everything can be reduced to net monetary benefit.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: THC Titan]
#11206787 - 10/08/09 10:15 AM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
THC Titan said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Welfare is socialist. Explain how welfare strengthens the economy. I don't think you can because it doesn't. We could get somewhere if we look at economics from a more scientific perspective. I would like to see a nation that maximizes prosperity and personal freedom. I think they go together nicely.
In rich developed countries, it is usually socially desirable to have some level of safety net available for the poorest and most needy among us. That doesn't necessarily include all the entitlement programs that are part of the "welfare state", and it is not socialism.
If you're saying there should be zero assistance to anyone, well, I'm sure there's an island in the Caribbean you can call your own where you don't have to get a shit about anyone but yourself, and everything can be reduced to net monetary benefit.
I think communities could do a far better job than government. People think that they can't do something once government takes over that role. Government likes to look benevolent because that's the easiest way to take advantage of people.
Welfare is redistribution of wealth which is a key part of socialism.
It is always interesting how no one has a convincing argument for welfare being good for the economy...
Edited by Mr.Al (10/08/09 10:17 AM)
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THC Titan
Spoonman
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 574
Loc: FL, USA
Last seen: 3 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11206992 - 10/08/09 10:51 AM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
I think communities could do a far better job than government. People think that they can't do something once government takes over that role. Government likes to look benevolent because that's the easiest way to take advantage of people.
Welfare is redistribution of wealth which is a key part of socialism.
It is always interesting how no one has a convincing argument for welfare being good for the economy...
If your idea of "maximizing prosperity" means concentrating a majority of the country's wealth in the upper 1% of the population, you're limiting your conception of both prosperity and freedom. If a significant number of people are not healthy and not educated, their ability to exercise their freedoms (and pursue happiness, blah blah) is severely limited.
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THC Titan
Spoonman
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 574
Loc: FL, USA
Last seen: 3 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: THC Titan]
#11207007 - 10/08/09 10:54 AM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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As an aside, what is the Austrian school of economics perspective on Pres. Reagan?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11207102 - 10/08/09 11:15 AM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
You are. You think Reagan and the Dem Congress of the eighties invented deficit spending, which is monumentally ignorant.
If I thought that, it would be monumentally ignorant. But you're making things up. I said monumental deficit spending started under Reagan. To be even more accurate I should have said "restarted".
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Obama and the Dem Congress are in the process of resizing that graph so that the bottom of it will go into this post.
That wouldn't disprove my point.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11207112 - 10/08/09 11:17 AM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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I'm in agreement with THC Titan's respones to your posts.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Of course you are. The consistency of both of your desires to spend other people's money is as certain as sunrise.
You also persist in the same false notion that the President determines the budget. He does not. Congress does.Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
You are. You think Reagan and the Dem Congress of the eighties invented deficit spending, which is monumentally ignorant.
If I thought that, it would be monumentally ignorant. But you're making things up. I said monumental deficit spending started under Reagan. To be even more accurate I should have said "restarted".
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Obama and the Dem Congress are in the process of resizing that graph so that the bottom of it will go into this post.
That wouldn't disprove my point.
You already said your point was incorrect but I will include this for reference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt
A nice table showing government debt as a fraction of GDP from 1940 to this year
Year Gross Debt in Billions [6] as % of GDP
1910 2.6 n/a
1920 25.9 n/a
1930 16.2 n/a
1940 43.0 52.4
1950 257.4 94.1
1960 290.5 56.1
1970 380.9 37.6
1980 909.0 33.3
1990 3,206.3 55.9
2000 5,628.7 58.0
2001 5,769.9 57.4
2002 6,198.4 59.7
2003 6,760.0 62.6
2004 7,354.7 63.9
2005 7,905.3 64.6
2006 8,451.4 65.0
2007 8,950.7 65.6
2008 9,985.8 70.2
2009 (est.) 12,867.5 90.4
2010 (est.) 14,456.3 98.1
2011 (est.) 15,673.9 101.1
2012 (est.) 16,565.7 100.6
2013 (est.) 17,440.2 99.7
2014 (est.) 18,350.0 99.8
As of 2007, the debt of the United States ranked as the 23rd-largest in the world as a percentage of GDP.[7].
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11207223 - 10/08/09 11:38 AM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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What are you saying? That deficits aren't a big deal?
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (10/08/09 03:57 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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No. That the Dem Congress is an out of control lunatic spendthrift socialist organization. Also that you are falsely asserting that the lowering of the top tax rates while Reagan was Pres led to unprecedented deficit spending.
http://www.college-cram.com/study/jer/presentations/970
Quote:
Taxation Part XII – Less is more: Later Experience with Tax Rate Cuts
In 1981 President Reagan signed the Kemp-Roth Tax Cut which trimmed the top marginal tax rate from 70% to 50% over three years, being fully implemented by 1984. Inflation adjusted tax revenue declined in the four years before 1983, but grew in 1983 and the three years following. Similarly, prior to the tax cuts, our economy grew at less than 1% annually with inflation adjustment, but the following four years grew at nearly 5% while inflation, unemployment, and interest rates also decreased. This was just the first round of cuts Reagan initiated.
Tax revenues went up. Spending went up even more. Let's stop the fucking spending and not go back to mugging people with more than a few dollars in their pocket.
He also asks a good question. Since you blindly follow the idea that raising tax rates increases revenue, do you believe that the most revenue would be achieved with a 100% rate?
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: THC Titan]
#11207892 - 10/08/09 01:23 PM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
THC Titan said:
If you're saying there should be zero assistance to anyone
well shouldnt that assistance be available to everyone, it's not available
to me, I've been out of work for 2 years, I cant qualify for any sort of
government assistance, I was denied unemployment and even if I were able
to collect that would have expired 18 months ago, seems that the only one
that can get it are those have the entitlements and they seem to be based
on race, seems I'm not the flavor of the week
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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THC Titan
Spoonman
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 574
Loc: FL, USA
Last seen: 3 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11208744 - 10/08/09 03:21 PM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
You also persist in the same false notion that the President determines the budget. He does not. Congress does.
You bring this up every time the discussion turns to fiscal policy, and I still don't understand how you made it to 50 years of age without having more than a fragmented understanding of the federal budgetary process.
Do you really believe the President has no direct influence in crafting the annual budget? Is it even possible to lay out a general framework for the process without including the role of the President and executive branch? I don't think you could, because it would instantly reveal how deceptive you are being. In fact, the President is one of the most important actors in the budgetary process.
This blind unawareness of government reminds me of certain people who criticized Sotomoyor for her comments about courts "making policy" when it's obvious to anyone with an education that every time the court determines the constitutionality of an issue, it changes the way those behaviors/rules/laws are practiced - thus, believe it or not, making policy.
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THC Titan
Spoonman
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 574
Loc: FL, USA
Last seen: 3 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11208748 - 10/08/09 03:23 PM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
well shouldnt that assistance be available to everyone, it's not available
to me, I've been out of work for 2 years, I cant qualify for any sort of
government assistance, I was denied unemployment and even if I were able
to collect that would have expired 18 months ago, seems that the only one
that can get it are those have the entitlements and they seem to be based
on race, seems I'm not the flavor of the week
What? Prisoner#1 scapegoating black people? I've never seen this before!
Hey buddy, why don't you stop being so gosh-darned lazy and pull yourself up by the bootstraps.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11208904 - 10/08/09 03:51 PM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Since you blindly follow the idea that raising tax rates increases revenue, do you believe that the most revenue would be achieved with a 100% rate?
No. I'm familiar with the Laffer Curve. The most revenue will be achieved somewhere between 40% - 75% depending on many factors (the more someone makes the higher tax rate they will accept before they become less motivated to work).
The links I posted above show why revenue went up under Reagan. Inflation, population growth, and other new taxes that effectively transferred taxes from the wealthy to everyone else.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (10/08/09 04:01 PM)
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: THC Titan]
#11209598 - 10/08/09 05:45 PM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
THC Titan said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
well shouldnt that assistance be available to everyone, it's not available
to me, I've been out of work for 2 years, I cant qualify for any sort of
government assistance, I was denied unemployment and even if I were able
to collect that would have expired 18 months ago, seems that the only one
that can get it are those have the entitlements and they seem to be based
on race, seems I'm not the flavor of the week
What? Prisoner#1 scapegoating black people? I've never seen this before!
Hey buddy, why don't you stop being so gosh-darned lazy and pull yourself up by the bootstraps.
so, lemme ask you, is it right that the non-contributing sector of
society can collect the government benefits I've paid for but when
in my time of need I cannot?
you should link us to that scapegoating you claim I've done
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11209717 - 10/08/09 06:00 PM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
well shouldnt that assistance be available to everyone, it's not available to me, I've been out of work for 2 years, I cant qualify for any sort of government assistance, I was denied unemployment and even if I were able to collect that would have expired 18 months ago, seems that the only one that can get it are those have the entitlements and they seem to be based on race, seems I'm not the flavor of the week
Are you saying a minority in the same position as you would be collecting benefits right now??? Please provide a link or explain this further. Thanks.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: THC Titan]
#11209881 - 10/08/09 06:24 PM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
THC Titan said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
You also persist in the same false notion that the President determines the budget. He does not. Congress does.
You bring this up every time the discussion turns to fiscal policy, and I still don't understand how you made it to 50 years of age without having more than a fragmented understanding of the federal budgetary process.
Do you really believe the President has no direct influence in crafting the annual budget? Is it even possible to lay out a general framework for the process without including the role of the President and executive branch? I don't think you could, because it would instantly reveal how deceptive you are being. In fact, the President is one of the most important actors in the budgetary process.
This blind unawareness of government reminds me of certain people who criticized Sotomoyor for her comments about courts "making policy" when it's obvious to anyone with an education that every time the court determines the constitutionality of an issue, it changes the way those behaviors/rules/laws are practiced - thus, believe it or not, making policy.
Egregiously nonsensical from top to bottom. There are vast latitudes of policy that can be determined by the legislature that have no judicial impact at all.
And I have never denied that the President can influence legislation. What I have endeavored to point out over and over again for the simple-minded is that the real dictator in terms of spending is the Congress. Hence all descriptions of what happened budgetarily at any time are far more accurately ascribed to the make up of Congress and NOT the White House.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11209932 - 10/08/09 06:31 PM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
provide a link to what, my non-existent bank account?
http://www.fns.usda.gov/fsp/applicant_recipients/eligibility.htm
Did I miss something in your link saying only minorities are eligible for food stamps? Isn't that your claim? That minorities in your position would get some kind of welfare that you're not getting?
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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maybe you should read my posts again, it's obvious you're missing something
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: THC Titan]
#11210024 - 10/08/09 06:48 PM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
THC Titan said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
I think communities could do a far better job than government. People think that they can't do something once government takes over that role. Government likes to look benevolent because that's the easiest way to take advantage of people.
Welfare is redistribution of wealth which is a key part of socialism.
It is always interesting how no one has a convincing argument for welfare being good for the economy...
If your idea of "maximizing prosperity" means concentrating a majority of the country's wealth in the upper 1% of the population, you're limiting your conception of both prosperity and freedom. If a significant number of people are not healthy and not educated, their ability to exercise their freedoms (and pursue happiness, blah blah) is severely limited.
We can make education cheap again if we get government out of it. Healthcare is extremely expensive also from government involvement. Notice things get expensive when government tries to "fix it."
Again, no explanation in how government welfare benefits the economy... No one wants to touch that.
Let me give you some help with economics.
Read Frederic Bastiat's: That Which is Seen and That Which is Not Seen. You will then comprehend exactly how government makes things more expensive.
Edited by Mr.Al (10/08/09 06:51 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11210435 - 10/08/09 07:51 PM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
maybe you should read my posts again, it's obvious you're missing something
Can someone help me, or is Prisoner the only one here that understands his post?
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11210520 - 10/08/09 08:02 PM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
We can make education cheap again if we get government out of it. Healthcare is extremely expensive also from government involvement. Notice things get expensive when government tries to "fix it."
So your proposal is that only kids with well to do parents go to school?
Also, Government hasn't taken over healthcare. This isn't a socialist country as you think.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Again, no explanation in how government welfare benefits the economy... No one wants to touch that.
So you'd rather put the eldery in the streets than allow the economy to take a minor hit? People like you are in the minority, thank goodness.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 21 hours, 2 minutes
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Where in the world do you get:
> So your proposal is that only kids with well to do parents go to school?
From:
> We can make education cheap again if we get government out of it.
If that is indicative of your reading comprehension skills, then it is no wonder that you have difficulty understanding Prisoner's posts.
Let me help you:
1) "We can make education cheap again" does not imply that there is no education. In fact, the wording clearly states that education exists, but that it has gotten expensive.
2) The only proposal made was that "if we get government out of it," then the costs associated with education would decline.
3) Nothing was said about well to do parents. I have no idea where you pulled this from.
4) Nothing was said about parents having to pay for schooling. I have no idea where you pulled this from.
5) Nothing was said about restricting a child's access to eduction. I have no idea where you pulled this from.
> Also, Government hasn't taken over healthcare.
The government completely regulates the healthcare industry, so in essence the government has taken over healthcare. The government decides who can be a healthcare provider (doctor, nurse, etc). The government decides who can get prescription drugs. The government decides who can produce prescription drugs. The government decides what prescription drugs are allowed. The government decides how long patents apply to prescription drugs. The government decides how much leeway to give to insurance companies. The government pays for healthcare for a segment of the population. etc, etc, etc.
And yet another brilliant leap of pulling BS from thin air... how did you arrive at:
"So you'd rather put the eldery in the streets than allow the economy to take a minor hit?"
From:
"Again, no explanation in how government welfare benefits the economy... No one wants to touch that."
How does his statement indicate his belief? It doesn't. I won't bother breaking this one down, but I would highly recommend that you slow down and read what people are saying rather than jumping to some inane conclusion that supports your personal beliefs and demonizes another. Perhaps an example will help you understand:
> People like you are in the minority, thank goodness.
So you'd rather kill everybody than let a few people suffer just because their children have Autism? And you claim to be the compassionate one.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Regarding welfare:
Government welfare puts a drain on the economy. When the economy is experiencing a significant downturn more welfare is doled out... Can you see how this is cyclical?
Notice that they just announced that they are extending unemployment benefits... I can't imagine why.
When government gets involved in an industry it becomes more expensive. When government takes something over and runs it the result is generally the business continues post losses.
I'm curious about what you think about the auto bailout... As far as I can see only auto unions benefited... It's throwing good money after bad!
Remember how Nixon said they were just going to run Amtrak for a few years?
Real science is based on observation first. Pseudo science (Id est: keynesian "economics") appears to put together theories and then come up with idiotic things like the "paradox of thrift" idea when reality proves them wrong.
How is it that a prominent keynesian like Bernanke is obviously a moron?
Edited by Mr.Al (10/09/09 11:31 AM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11214780 - 10/09/09 11:44 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
Let me help you:
.
.
.
4) Nothing was said about parents having to pay for schooling. I have no idea where you pulled this from.
Ok, where do YOU think money will come from for schooling of children with poor parents?
Quote:
Seuss said:
The government completely regulates the healthcare industry, so in essence the government has taken over healthcare.
Do you think safety regulations are a bad idea? That's what most healthcare regulations are about.
Quote:
Seuss said:
And yet another brilliant leap of pulling BS from thin air... how did you arrive at:
"So you'd rather put the eldery in the streets than allow the economy to take a minor hit?"
What do YOU think will happen to the elderly with no money if we eliminate social security???
Your answers to these 3 questions will help me understand if I was "pulling BS from thin air" or not.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Just imagine how much better off the elderly would be if they hadn't had their wages stolen for a Ponzi scheme for 40 years. Most of them would be millionaires living nicely off the interest and still leaving an estate for their children.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Here's the best idea yet...
Since government has proven itself to be the best at the task of allocating monetary resources intelligently let's all just send them all our money and tell them to do what they do best!
Reductio ad absurdum...
Government is the most wasteful allocator of resources. If you give them more funds you will see a deepening depression and a call for more welfare!
The welfare system is broken because it was a stupid idea in the first place.
How about.....
The elderly people living on a fixed income (from whatever source) would be far better off if they weren't faced with a severe inflation of the money supply that causes their fixed income to not be worth shit!
There is a school of economics that calls for endless inflation (that hurts the most those who have the least money), I think I recall that it is keynesian "economics"...
Edited by Mr.Al (10/09/09 11:58 AM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11215174 - 10/09/09 12:48 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Regarding welfare:
Government welfare puts a drain on the economy. When the economy is experiencing a significant downturn more welfare is doled out... Can you see how this is cyclical?
Notice that they just announced that they are extending unemployment benefits... I can't imagine why.
Civilized societies have welfare. I'm not disagreeing that it doesn't drain the economy a bit. I'm saying welfare won't go away, no matter how little you yourself care about the elderly, the people who are laid off work, the kids whose parents are on crack, etc. Sure, there's room for welfare reform that would require able-bodied people to at least do some type of menial work to get a paycheck, etc. But welfare won't go away; not in a civilized society.
Now, given that welfare won't go away, how do you pull a country out of a recession? The more jobs that are lost, the fewer people have money. The fewer people have money, the more jobs that are lost. Do you see the downward spiral? Putting money into the economy or lowering taxes is the only way to bring back jobs; both solutions increase the deficit, and put a drain on future generations. I've always been for a balanced budget amendment, which would stop deficit spending unless there were an economic crisis. Unfortunately, we are in an economic crisis.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
When government gets involved in an industry it becomes more expensive. When government takes something over and runs it the result is generally the business continues post losses.
I'm curious about what you think about the auto bailout... As far as I can see only auto unions benefited... It's throwing good money after bad!
I remember the Chrysler bailout in 1980. That seemed to work out fine. Time will tell if the latest auto bailouts were successful. I'm guessing GM will rise again.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Real science is based on observation first. Pseudo science (Id est: keynesian "economics") appears to put together theories and then come up with idiotic things like the "paradox of thrift" idea when reality proves them wrong.
What type of "real science" is there to back up the Austrian School? What countries can we look at to see that the theories work? You're the one advocating "real science", after all.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
How is it that a prominent keynesian like Bernanke is obviously a moron?
Um, because he's a republican?
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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What caused the "recession" in the first place?
How can you not see that having a central bank that props up the fractional reserve banking system worsens the severity of boom & bust economic cycles?
The government answer is always to create, borrow, or tax to inject more money into the economy. Yes there is a short period (sometimes a couple years) of false prosperity. This is caused by the fact that initially there is more money circulating in the economy but it takes a little while for prices to adjust to the influx of new money. Once prices adjust to the new money people find that they are worse off than before the government "stimulated the economy".
We have established that welfare puts a drain upon the economy. Is it that much of a stretch to suppose that this might conceivably precipitate more welfare?
If the 1980 Chrysler bailout was such a resounding success why are they broke again?
Maybe companies that suck at life need to go bankrupt, have better businessmen buy them out, and then perhaps produce better products more cheaply???????
Can you not see how corrupt it is for the federal government to bail out an auto industry that was made unprofitable by auto labor unions?
If a business is not solvent it makes no sense for government to give them lots of money. They have already demonstrated that the business sucks at life and has become a bottomless money pit.
The auto bailout is a welfare program for auto unions.
To answer your question regarding an economy that practiced parts of Austrian economics: civilizations throughout history used precious metals for thousands of years as money. Precious metals have shown to be much more stable than government paper. The lifespan of fiat currency is never very long.
The chief teleprompter reader re-appointed Bernanke. The blame is shared by the puppet clown that is the definition of FAIL. This has nothing to do with political parties because both have followed the keynesian model. Making this an issue of political parties is a pathetic distraction from looking at the real causes of our economic problems.
Edited by Mr.Al (10/10/09 12:21 AM)
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I remember the Chrysler bailout in 1980. That seemed to work out fine. Time will tell if the latest auto bailouts were successful. I'm guessing GM will rise again.
so the first bailout for chrysler worked fine, why then are they in need of a bail out again
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11220805 - 10/10/09 01:18 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I remember the Chrysler bailout in 1980. That seemed to work out fine. Time will tell if the latest auto bailouts were successful. I'm guessing GM will rise again.
so the first bailout for chrysler worked fine, why then are they in need of a bail out again
Quite right. One can certainly argue that if the unions had gotten a taste of dissolution then they wouldn't have totally fucked all three auto makers unto death for the next 25 years.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11221461 - 10/10/09 03:31 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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the only thing that allowed chrysler to survive the first 20 years was the
contractual obligation the government had to purchase their vehicles, the
public wasnt interested in buying what they knew to be junk, anyone
remember the K-car, they leaked coolant on the showroom floor due to poor
head design and inferior gasket materials... not much has changed since
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Thanks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the social security trust fund is ficticious. The Government doesn't actually save any money for the future. It takes what it needs from FICA each year, and any leftover is used to cover the deficit. So long as the Government collects enough FICA to cover its current obligations, then things are good. If there is a projected shortage, then eliminating the wage cap on FICA would bring in enough extra money to cover that shortage.
Haha, it seems that Michael Moore and Sean Hannity followed this thread, as they almost duplicated it here:
We debated about 4 days before they did. 
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Do you need to be reminded that government projections of funding required for future programs are low-balled to the degree that can only be called laughable?
It is interesting that followers of Keynes don't even make an attempt at economic debate.
Edited by Mr.Al (10/12/09 07:12 AM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11237499 - 10/13/09 01:38 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
What caused the "recession" in the first place?
It was caused by a lot of things. Deregulation, greedy bankers, greedy mortgage brokers, greedy real estate agents, greedy investors, etc. You probably can't stop greed, but you can bring regulation back.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
How can you not see that having a central bank that props up the fractional reserve banking system worsens the severity of boom & bust economic cycles?
How can you see that it worsens the severity? Here are the economic cycles in the US as far back as I could find them:
http://www.oswego.edu/~edunne/200ch8_1.html
The cycles appear to have improved significantly since central banks started playing a larger role.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
The government answer is always to create, borrow, or tax to inject more money into the economy. Yes there is a short period (sometimes a couple years) of false prosperity. This is caused by the fact that initially there is more money circulating in the economy but it takes a little while for prices to adjust to the influx of new money. Once prices adjust to the new money people find that they are worse off than before the government "stimulated the economy".
How do you define "false" prosperity? If I earn more money and use it to buy more things, is it really false prosperity? Especially in light of the graph I just posted above?
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
We have established that welfare puts a drain upon the economy. Is it that much of a stretch to suppose that this might conceivably precipitate more welfare?
Empirical evidence seems to show otherwise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School#Criticism
Economist Jeffrey Sachs states that when comparing developed free-market economies, those that have high rates of taxation and high social welfare spending perform better on most measures of economic performance compared to countries with low rates of taxation and low social outlays. He asserts that poverty rates are lower, median income is higher, the budget has larger surpluses, and the trade balance is stronger (although unemployment tends to be higher). He concludes that Friedrich Hayek was wrong when he said that high taxation would be a threat to freedom; but rather, a generous social-welfare state leads to fairness, economic equality, international competitiveness, and strong vibrant democracies.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
If the 1980 Chrysler bailout was such a resounding success why are they broke again?
Because of the financial crisis. They're not the only car company that's struggling.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Maybe companies that suck at life need to go bankrupt, have better businessmen buy them out, and then perhaps produce better products more cheaply???????
I'm ok with that. I'm also ok with saving them, because their failure was largely the result of the recession.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Can you not see how corrupt it is for the federal government to bail out an auto industry that was made unprofitable by auto labor unions?
What do labor unions have to do with this? Are you saying if they failed because of poor management, then they should have been bailed out? Seriously, why did you qualify your statement with labor unions?
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
If a business is not solvent it makes no sense for government to give them lots of money. They have already demonstrated that the business sucks at life and has become a bottomless money pit.
Fair enough.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
The auto bailout is a welfare program for auto unions.
Again, what's the relevance of auto unions to your argument?
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
To answer your question regarding an economy that practiced parts of Austrian economics: civilizations throughout history used precious metals for thousands of years as money. Precious metals have shown to be much more stable than government paper. The lifespan of fiat currency is never very long.
Never? How long has the dollar lasted as a fiat currency? 75 years and counting? And it hasn't failed.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11237505 - 10/13/09 01:41 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Do you need to be reminded that government projections of funding required for future programs are low-balled to the degree that can only be called laughable?
Yes, estimates are generally given on the low end of the estimated range. But I disagree that it's to a "laughable" degree (whatever that means).
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
It is interesting that followers of Keynes don't even make an attempt at economic debate.
Sorry, I had guests over this weekend.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Yrat
Hello
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 1,185
Last seen: 9 hours, 39 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Never? How long has the dollar lasted as a fiat currency? 75 years and counting? And it hasn't failed.
no, only since 1971. that's 38 years.
what is interesting to note, is that no fiat currency throughout history has lasted past 40 years. knowing this number, do you think the timing of all these collapses is just coincidence? the last bubble is the dollar bubble, and when it pops, look out below.
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"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
What caused the "recession" in the first place?
It was caused by a lot of things. Deregulation, greedy bankers, greedy mortgage brokers, greedy real estate agents, greedy investors, etc. You probably can't stop greed, but you can bring regulation back.
Quote:
Again, you are not looking at the moral hazard created by artificially low interest rates. The federal reserve created the moral hazard. Central economic planning and banking caused the problem and you blame the market???
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
How can you not see that having a central bank that props up the fractional reserve banking system worsens the severity of boom & bust economic cycles?
How can you see that it worsens the severity? Here are the economic cycles in the US as far back as I could find them:
http://www.oswego.edu/~edunne/200ch8_1.html
The cycles appear to have improved significantly since central banks started playing a larger role.
[quote]How do you define improvement? Since the fed hijacked the currency the dollar has lost 96% of it's purchasing power. The situation we are in now constitutes improvement?
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
The government answer is always to create, borrow, or tax to inject more money into the economy. Yes there is a short period (sometimes a couple years) of false prosperity. This is caused by the fact that initially there is more money circulating in the economy but it takes a little while for prices to adjust to the influx of new money. Once prices adjust to the new money people find that they are worse off than before the government "stimulated the economy".
How do you define "false" prosperity? If I earn more money and use it to buy more things, is it really false prosperity? Especially in light of the graph I just posted above?
Quote:
I define false prosperity as the temporary good times that an influx of new money causes, before prices adjust to the increase in the money supply.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
We have established that welfare puts a drain upon the economy. Is it that much of a stretch to suppose that this might conceivably precipitate more welfare?
Empirical evidence seems to show otherwise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School#Criticism
Economist Jeffrey Sachs states that when comparing developed free-market economies, those that have high rates of taxation and high social welfare spending perform better on most measures of economic performance compared to countries with low rates of taxation and low social outlays. He asserts that poverty rates are lower, median income is higher, the budget has larger surpluses, and the trade balance is stronger (although unemployment tends to be higher). He concludes that Friedrich Hayek was wrong when he said that high taxation would be a threat to freedom; but rather, a generous social-welfare state leads to fairness, economic equality, international competitiveness, and strong vibrant democracies.
Quote:
Socialism worked great for Jamestown, didn't it? http://mises.org/story/336 How is it difficult to comprehend that government spending ALWAYS COMES AT A COST. When government spends, it means that production in the private sector will be decreased in the future. Government taking wealth from people through taxation or inflation is certainly means a decrease in freedom, is that not a key part in the right to pursue happiness? Certainly that idiot Sachs hasn't been to Britain and seen how well the welfare state there fares. Jeffrey Sachs is another useless windbag who would not be able to refute A.B.C. theory, which utterly destroys the entire keynesian school, and thus his words are worth less than nothing.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
If the 1980 Chrysler bailout was such a resounding success why are they broke again?
Because of the financial crisis. They're not the only car company that's struggling. Quote:
Bullshit, it's because labor unions have jacked up production costs to the point where American cars are not competitively priced in the market.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Maybe companies that suck at life need to go bankrupt, have better businessmen buy them out, and then perhaps produce better products more cheaply???????
I'm ok with that. I'm also ok with saving them, because their failure was largely the result of the recession.Quote:
How do you not comprehend that "saving" gigantic, bankrupt, and inefficient (fucking profitless!!! W.T.F. man!) corporations occurs at the cost of the entire damn economy! Healthy businesses produce more value. Subsidizing business failure is utter nonsense! It reinforces failure! W.T.F.!?!
Mr.Al said:
Can you not see how corrupt it is for the federal government to bail out an auto industry that was made unprofitable by auto labor unions?
What do labor unions have to do with this? Are you saying if they failed because of poor management, then they should have been bailed out? Seriously, why did you qualify your statement with labor unions?
Quote:
If labor unions make a business unprofitable to the point of insolvency the only REAL cure is for the business to declare bankruptcy! The only means for the production to become efficient and economically sound is for the valuable parts of the business to be bought out!!! The solution is not for the asshole sellout politician that they contributed vast sums of campaign money to send them even greater sums of public money!
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
If a business is not solvent it makes no sense for government to give them lots of money. They have already demonstrated that the business sucks at life and has become a bottomless money pit.
Fair enough.
Mr.Al said:
The auto bailout is a welfare program for auto unions.
Again, what's the relevance of auto unions to your argument?
Quote:
The central argument is that government spending occurs with unseen costs attached to them. It is immoral for politically well connected (sometimes also organized crime connected) unions to rob from the productivity of the entire economy through theft!
Mr.Al said:
To answer your question regarding an economy that practiced parts of Austrian economics: civilizations throughout history used precious metals for thousands of years as money. Precious metals have shown to be much more stable than government paper. The lifespan of fiat currency is never very long.
Never? How long has the dollar lasted as a fiat currency? 75 years and counting? And it hasn't failed.
Yrat answered that question. Fiat has a short lifespan because government abuses the shit out of the power to create new money and back it with nothing but force. You would do well to read this http://mises.org/story/2868 Have you invested in a wheel barrow yet? You might need it in the future to buy that loaf of bread.
Edited by Mr.Al (10/13/09 09:00 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
What caused the "recession" in the first place?
It was caused by a lot of things. Deregulation, greedy bankers, greedy mortgage brokers, greedy real estate agents, greedy investors, etc. You probably can't stop greed, but you can bring regulation back.
The banking industry is the most heavily regulated industry in the entire country. You might want to consider other government interference in banking as more culpable. For instance the CRA, Fannie and Freddie. Greedy real estate agents? How can they possibly do anything to affect the price? Greedy investors? Isn't that what they are supposed to be? Otherwise why invest? Likewise banks.
Not surprisingly you leave out the one group that actually is culpable. The bums who take loans that they don't repay.Quote:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
How can you not see that having a central bank that props up the fractional reserve banking system worsens the severity of boom & bust economic cycles?
How can you see that it worsens the severity? Here are the economic cycles in the US as far back as I could find them:
http://www.oswego.edu/~edunne/200ch8_1.html
The cycles appear to have improved significantly since central banks started playing a larger role.
I can see no evidence whatsoever that ups and downs are a product of the existence of a central bank. They seem to be an inevitable feature of economies, as you point out. This boom and bust cycle is also endlessly reflected in every homeostatic system on the planet. Which somewhat destroys your entire notion that insufficient regulation in the most heavily regulated industry in the country has caused this one.Quote:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
The government answer is always to create, borrow, or tax to inject more money into the economy. Yes there is a short period (sometimes a couple years) of false prosperity. This is caused by the fact that initially there is more money circulating in the economy but it takes a little while for prices to adjust to the influx of new money. Once prices adjust to the new money people find that they are worse off than before the government "stimulated the economy".
How do you define "false" prosperity? If I earn more money and use it to buy more things, is it really false prosperity? Especially in light of the graph I just posted above?
The graph you posted above has nothing to do with that. It is possible to have a "false" prosperity if you base it strictly on poor analysis. For instance, if you earn ten times more money but everything costs 100 times more but you only measure prosperity by dollar amounts that would be a false analysis. I haven't seen anyone fall for that in my entire lifetime. Then again, I have unfortunately seen someone fall for the "the dollar has lost 96% of it's value" nonsense.Quote:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
We have established that welfare puts a drain upon the economy. Is it that much of a stretch to suppose that this might conceivably precipitate more welfare?
Empirical evidence seems to show otherwise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School#Criticism
Economist Jeffrey Sachs states that when comparing developed free-market economies, those that have high rates of taxation and high social welfare spending perform better on most measures of economic performance compared to countries with low rates of taxation and low social outlays. He asserts that poverty rates are lower, median income is higher, the budget has larger surpluses, and the trade balance is stronger (although unemployment tends to be higher). He concludes that Friedrich Hayek was wrong when he said that high taxation would be a threat to freedom; but rather, a generous social-welfare state leads to fairness, economic equality, international competitiveness, and strong vibrant democracies.
I don't see any empirical evidence there about which direction the causality arrow points in. Welfare is a luxury only afforded to the most affluent societies. Affluence is not caused by welfare. See his own remarks regarding unemployment.Quote:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
If the 1980 Chrysler bailout was such a resounding success why are they broke again?
Because of the financial crisis. They're not the only car company that's struggling.
Quite right. The unions destroyed all three American auto maker. Maybe if the government hadn't bailed Chrysler out in the first place the unions would have been forced to cave and GM and Ford could have competed.Quote:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Maybe companies that suck at life need to go bankrupt, have better businessmen buy them out, and then perhaps produce better products more cheaply???????
I'm ok with that. I'm also ok with saving them, because their failure was largely the result of the recession.
No. They hadn't made any money to speak of for years and years long before this recession started. How is this recession different than any other recession they survived? Time and the inevitable corrosive effect of shitty union deals which were only prolonged by the original Chrysler bailout. The Chrysler bailout doomed them and GM and badly hurt Ford.Quote:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Can you not see how corrupt it is for the federal government to bail out an auto industry that was made unprofitable by auto labor unions?
What do labor unions have to do with this? Are you saying if they failed because of poor management, then they should have been bailed out? Seriously, why did you qualify your statement with labor unions?
Because they did it and because they are the ones that benefit from the bailout. Qui Bono, indeed?Quote:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
If a business is not solvent it makes no sense for government to give them lots of money. They have already demonstrated that the business sucks at life and has become a bottomless money pit.
Fair enough.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
The auto bailout is a welfare program for auto unions.
Again, what's the relevance of auto unions to your argument?
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
To answer your question regarding an economy that practiced parts of Austrian economics: civilizations throughout history used precious metals for thousands of years as money. Precious metals have shown to be much more stable than government paper. The lifespan of fiat currency is never very long.
Never? How long has the dollar lasted as a fiat currency? 75 years and counting? And it hasn't failed.
How do you measure the value of precious metals? In loaf of bread equivalents?
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 2,432
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11238407 - 10/13/09 09:31 AM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Long story short zap, when productivity is increased in the economy the medium of exchange will correspondingly have more buying power. That is real lasting prosperity....
Inflating the money supply is false prosperity because for awhile people have more buying power because there is more of the medium of exchange and prices take awhile to adjust to the influx of new money. That is the boom. When prices adjust the cycle moves into the bust phase.
Your thoughts about the increase of the money supply not being harmful is erroneous because wages do not keep pace with inflation. That is what puts the real squeeze on most people.
In regards to the loaf of bread comment... Do you remember the Weimar Republic?
Edited by Mr.Al (10/13/09 09:33 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 18,051
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11238912 - 10/13/09 11:35 AM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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No. I'm not that old, you fucker.
Purchasing power is a reasonable measure, no? All this talk about wages and inflation and whatnot being catastrophic is craziness. In the 60s, when I was a child these things were rare:
More than one car per household
Air conditioning
color television
dishwashers
I could go on ad nauseum. Even the poor today have more luxuries than most middle class families had then.
You also need to consider homeostasis vis-a-vis any measurement of prosperity, false, real or imagined. Constantly producing that ridiculous "The dollar has lost 96% of it's value since" nonsense does not facilitate your argument. If the "since" in question was "last Tuesday" you would have a point. But it isn't so you don't.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 113,291
Loc: Capt. Pubfag Banner
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11239438 - 10/13/09 01:07 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
How do you define "false" prosperity?
the clinton years
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: Mr.Al]
#11239523 - 10/13/09 01:26 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Again, you are not looking at the moral hazard created by artificially low interest rates. The federal reserve created the moral hazard. Central economic planning and banking caused the problem and you blame the market???
Greenspan had a role. I've said it at least 3 times already. Another dumbass republican appointee.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
How do you define improvement? Since the fed hijacked the currency the dollar has lost 96% of it's purchasing power. The situation we are in now constitutes improvement?
Wages have gone up significantly too. You forgot to mention that.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
I define false prosperity as the temporary good times that an influx of new money causes, before prices adjust to the increase in the money supply.
We're in agreement that money itself doesn't create prosperity. But money can be used to jump start a slow economy. Once the economy starts moving, the Government needs to step back again (which they haven't effectively done in recent decades).
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Socialism worked great for Jamestown, didn't it? http://mises.org/story/336
Dude, WTF? I'm not saying people shouldn't work. Neither does socialism (which isn't what I support by the way).
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Government taking wealth from people through taxation or inflation is certainly means a decrease in freedom, is that not a key part in the right to pursue happiness?
I don't think a nation can survive without a Government and taxes. Show me an example where I'm wrong.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Jeffrey Sachs is another useless windbag who would not be able to refute A.B.C. theory, which utterly destroys the entire keynesian school, and thus his words are worth less than nothing.
His example shows Austrian theory appears to be flawed.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
How do you not comprehend that "saving" gigantic, bankrupt, and inefficient (fucking profitless!!! W.T.F. man!) corporations occurs at the cost of the entire damn economy! Healthy businesses produce more value.
If GM doesn't return to profitability, then I agree it was a wasted bailout. The bailout was to get them through the recession, along with the rest of the country. Chrysler returned to profitability in the 80's, and I believe GM will also.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Subsidizing business failure is utter nonsense! It reinforces failure! W.T.F.!?!
Agreed. I'm not a fan of the bailouts. Especially the banks. But I understand why they were done.
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
The central argument is that government spending occurs with unseen costs attached to them. It is immoral for politically well connected (sometimes also organized crime connected) unions to rob from the productivity of the entire economy through theft!
You call it theft, I call it taxes. But yes, it is immoral for Government to give to people who are well connected to Govt (Goldman Sachs, etc).
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Fiat has a short lifespan because government abuses the shit out of the power to create new money and back it with nothing but force. You would do well to read this http://mises.org/story/2868
I don't know who actually proposed the "broken window fallacy" in your link, but any retard can see it's flawed. It assumes a taxing someone is like destroying a window. Do you really think a country can survive without taxes?
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 43,006
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 10 hours, 44 minutes
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Quote:
Another dumbass republican appointee.
Who was then reappointed by a Democrat.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: zappaisgod]
#11239540 - 10/13/09 01:32 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
I don't see any empirical evidence there about which direction the causality arrow points in. Welfare is a luxury only afforded to the most affluent societies. Affluence is not caused by welfare. See his own remarks regarding unemployment.
That's a fair point. But I would argue that any affluent society should have welfare. If you disagree that's fine. Majority vote wins.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
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Re: bill clinton fucking sucked [Re: |
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