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OfflineDragonChaser
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: OrganizedChaos]
    #10899766 - 08/20/09 07:22 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrganizedChaos said:
Do you pay for insurance?
Do you realize the cost out of your paycheck?
Especially since you seem healthy?





My health insurance is like 5 bucks a month.

And I have GREAT coverage, even though I've had a lot of health problems through my life.  Any prescriptions that I get are only a few bucks, and everything else I do, dental, vision, etc, is also cheap as hell.


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My name is Mud

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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: Silversoul]
    #10899774 - 08/20/09 07:22 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

feelingfunny said:
Is it not an option to have public healthcare for those who WANT it, and still offer private healthcare for those who WANT it?



That's exactly what's being proposed, yet opponents of health care reform continue to dishonestly portray it as an all-or-nothing affair.



To me it still is all or nothing. Those that want private care would be a majority of people who already are covered. Those that aren't covered now would use the free health care. This country is already filled with hypocondriacs we don't need everyone going to the hospital because they can.

You're also disregarding the whole paying for another persons health care through forced taxes. That's a huge issue with some people.


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OfflineOrganizedChaos
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Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 1,952
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: UpSwell]
    #10899776 - 08/20/09 07:23 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

UpSwell said:
Quote:

OrganizedChaos said:
But what defines "unhealthy"?

Some would argue smoking pot is "unhealthy"
Yet you mention smoking about 1/2 oz a week.
Some would say you shouldn't even be covered due to illicit substance use.

Health care should not be profitable
I am not a commodity.




There's no fucking way I want to pay taxes for someone who is smoking a half a z a week. 

Also, you are a commodity, and everything you do is an economic decision.  That doesn't matter if it's capitalism (profit) or socialism (some government beauracrat getting paid).  It takes money to feed, cloth, and house you, no matter what system is in place.  You're nothing special.




No shit, its called scarcity.

Sorry you have a stick up your ass.


--------------------
It is what it is, Let it be!

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OfflineOrganizedChaos
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Registered: 04/19/09
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: DragonChaser]
    #10899788 - 08/20/09 07:24 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DragonChaser said:
Quote:

OrganizedChaos said:
Do you pay for insurance?
Do you realize the cost out of your paycheck?
Especially since you seem healthy?





My health insurance is like 5 bucks a month.

And I have GREAT coverage, even though I've had a lot of health problems through my life.  Any prescriptions that I get are only a few bucks, and everything else I do, dental, vision, etc, is also cheap as hell.




Then you are either part of a union, work for a great company, or are full of shit.
I'll put my money on the latter.


--------------------
It is what it is, Let it be!

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Invisibleniteowl
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Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: UpSwell]
    #10899794 - 08/20/09 07:25 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

UpSwell said:
Quote:

niteowl said:
Taxing unhealthy food is one option
making unhealthy people pay much higher
premium's and monthly fees is a better
option in my opinion




That's not a very equitable situation.

The biggest health problem among poor Americans today is not malnourishment it's obesity.  That's because foods that are cheap also happen to be foods looked down upon by snobby Americans as 'unhealthy'.

So if you went and taxed all the 'unhealthy' foods like high-fat hamburger, round steaks, macaroni and cheese, etc, good, cheap, filling food, you also tax the poor Americans.

Only middle-class and above people can afford to eat low-fat foods all the time, with many trips to the store for green vegetables and the like.  Poor people can't do that shit.




The biggest problem isn't the fact
that people are eating shitty food
it is the fact that no one is exercising

you can eat shit food and still maintain your health
if you start exercising daily/weekly

giving overweight people the option to reduce their coverage
by getting in shape is a win/win situation all around


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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OfflineOrganizedChaos
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Registered: 04/19/09
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: niteowl]
    #10899801 - 08/20/09 07:26 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

We are a rather plump bunch.

Exercise is part of a health!


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It is what it is, Let it be!

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Invisiblebuckwheat
Cynically Insane


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: OrganizedChaos]
    #10899832 - 08/20/09 07:31 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrganizedChaos said:
Quote:

buckwheat said:
Quote:

Coaster said:
Well Sweden pays 1/3 the price of americans
have twice as many doctors per capita
and they live 3 years long on average
socialized medicine is the way of the future






Bull shit. Those figures include deaths that have nothing to do with medical treatment. Like murders.We are also fat asses that causes tons more problems.  But the media loves feeding you that bullshit.


If you stick to life expectancy when medical treatment has started. The US has the highest life expectancy in the world.





You sir are a dumbass. NO US has shorter life expectancy.
Read some shit before you spew it.

CIA WORLD FACTBOOK
US
total population: 78.11 years
country comparison to the world: 50
male: 75.65 years
female: 80.69 years (2009 est.)
Sweden
total population: 80.86 years
country comparison to the world: 10
male: 78.59 years
female: 83.26 years (2009 est.)

you can have an opinion, you cannot have your own facts.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sw.html





You should learn how to read before calling people dumb asses and going on about facts.:yesnod:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: jewunit]
    #10899833 - 08/20/09 07:31 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

jewunit said:
To me it still is all or nothing. Those that want private care would be a majority of people who already are covered. Those that aren't covered now would use the free health care. This country is already filled with hypocondriacs we don't need everyone going to the hospital because they can.



Actually, we would likely have fewer hospital visits because people who currently use the emergency room could go to a private doctor instead.

Quote:

You're also disregarding the whole paying for another persons health care through forced taxes. That's a huge issue with some people.



Yes, some people don't feel they should pay to help other people, even though they enjoy all kinds of subsidies for their wealth.  Land speculators are rewarded for making money without producing anything thanks to the mortgage interest tax deduction.  The more money you make, the more shit you can write off on your taxes.  So I'm afraid I don't have a lot of sympathy for these people.

Believe me, I know all about these knee-jerk anti-government arguments.  I was a libertarian myself for a number of years.  The thing is, it's a bunch of bullshit.


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OfflineOrganizedChaos
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Registered: 04/19/09
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: buckwheat]
    #10899852 - 08/20/09 07:34 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Little slow?

Look at the numbers.
They live longer.


--------------------
It is what it is, Let it be!

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Invisibleniteowl
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Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: Flag
Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: UpSwell]
    #10899859 - 08/20/09 07:35 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

UpSwell said:
Quote:

OrganizedChaos said:
But what defines "unhealthy"?

Some would argue smoking pot is "unhealthy"
Yet you mention smoking about 1/2 oz a week.
Some would say you shouldn't even be covered due to illicit substance use.

Health care should not be profitable
I am not a commodity.




There's no fucking way I want to pay taxes for someone who is smoking a half a z a week. 

Also, you are a commodity, and everything you do is an economic decision.  That doesn't matter if it's capitalism (profit) or socialism (some government beauracrat getting paid).  It takes money to feed, cloth, and house you, no matter what system is in place.  You're nothing special.




If the guy smoking a 1/2oz a week can pass the PT test
then no one has to pay more, since the stoner
is taking care of his overall health

this puts a persons health directly
in the hands of the Dr and patient

If the patient isn't making improvements
then the Dr denies a decrease in premiums


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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OfflineUpSwell
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Registered: 11/01/04
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: niteowl]
    #10899863 - 08/20/09 07:35 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:

The biggest problem isn't the fact
that people are eating shitty food
it is the fact that no one is exercising

you can eat shit food and still maintain your health
if you start exercising daily/weekly

giving overweight people the option to reduce their coverage
by getting in shape is a win/win situation all around




The group in question, low-income people, are usually housed in huge public-housing blocks in inner cities, or are in rural America.  Contrary to popular belief, many of these people work low-income jobs full time, have kids to care for, etc.  Exercising is not an option for a lot of people.  You should know this because you're older and I think you had kids.

I fully agree exercising would do everyone some good.  But if you're in the inner city you can't just put on your jogging suit and run around the block, that's not realistic at all.

The proposed solution, a wealth transfer from already overstrapped middle-income Americans to low-income Americans, is a band-aid cop-out option.  It's socialism pure and simple that won't benefit the recipients very much but will definitely be the straw that broke the camels back on the majority of the middle people.

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Invisiblebuckwheat
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Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: OrganizedChaos]
    #10899891 - 08/20/09 07:39 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrganizedChaos said:
Little slow?

Look at the numbers.
They live longer.




Wow

I try not to laugh since we all make mistakes but this is obviously pure retardedness on your part. Read my post slower this time

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OfflineUpSwell
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: Silversoul]
    #10899899 - 08/20/09 07:41 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

jewunit said:
To me it still is all or nothing. Those that want private care would be a majority of people who already are covered. Those that aren't covered now would use the free health care. This country is already filled with hypocondriacs we don't need everyone going to the hospital because they can.



Actually, we would likely have fewer hospital visits because people who currently use the emergency room could go to a private doctor instead.

Quote:

You're also disregarding the whole paying for another persons health care through forced taxes. That's a huge issue with some people.



Yes, some people don't feel they should pay to help other people, even though they enjoy all kinds of subsidies for their wealth.  Land speculators are rewarded for making money without producing anything thanks to the mortgage interest tax deduction.  The more money you make, the more shit you can write off on your taxes.  So I'm afraid I don't have a lot of sympathy for these people.

Believe me, I know all about these knee-jerk anti-government arguments.  I was a libertarian myself for a number of years.  The thing is, it's a bunch of bullshit.




If you were a Libertarian then you'd know that the 'tax loopholes' that benefit the rich are not a part of the economic picture in a Libertarian government.

Also, your first sentence reveals a fundamental flaw.  You're saying that people who have coverage now will keep it, and we will cover people who don't.  The question is, where does that money come from?  It doesn't materialize out of thin air.

It will come from capital investment reserves from high-income people (job creation, in case you didn't notice unemployment is the MAIN issue on people's minds today), and from the huge middle-income tax bracket, you know, the people who are worried about unemployment.

That's why Obama's socialized medicine fell flat on it's face.  It all sounds good until you're paying the fucking bills and looking at your FICA and Federal Taxes and looking at your kids going "what about my kids?"

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Invisibleniteowl
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Registered: 07/01/03
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: UpSwell]
    #10899915 - 08/20/09 07:44 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

UpSwell said:
The group in question, low-income people, are usually housed in huge public-housing blocks in inner cities, or are in rural America.  Contrary to popular belief, many of these people work low-income jobs full time, have kids to care for, etc.  Exercising is not an option for a lot of people.  You should know this because you're older and I think you had kids.

I fully agree exercising would do everyone some good.  But if you're in the inner city you can't just put on your jogging suit and run around the block, that's not realistic at all.




If you have a whole nation trying to get in shape
then the excuses go out the window
claiming you can't exercise is the ultimate cop out

if a person is in a situation where exercising outside
is not fesable, then it wouldn't be out of the question
to issue them a treadmill, or just give the unhealthy people a treadmill
the end result would greatly out weigh the cost

Imagine a nation of people than could actually pass a basic PT test
that alone would save the nation billions in the long run

in my honest opinion profit should be taken out of the health equation


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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OfflineUpSwell
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: niteowl]
    #10899985 - 08/20/09 07:53 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:

in my honest opinion profit should be taken out of the health equation




That's our fundamental disagreement and we've agreed to disagree before.

I say you take the ADMINISTRATIVE costs out of health care, i.e. the government, fat ambulance-chasing lawyers, huge insurance premiums (biggest cost for any phsyician), and you have MORE than enough margin to enable primary-care physicians to offer health care to low-income Americans (many want to but can't afford to because of ins premiums), more insurance companies to choose from (and the internet to help people choose, even poor Americans have a web browser somewhere), and you've got a better system for everyone.

The solution is NOT to pay even MORE money to government oversight committees and beauracrats and regulations and red tape and all the rest of the crap that have nothing to do with health care and everything to do with keeping political actions committees, retirement funds, and big pensions for people who provide no care at all.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: UpSwell]
    #10899991 - 08/20/09 07:54 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

UpSwell said:
If you were a Libertarian then you'd know that the 'tax loopholes' that benefit the rich are not a part of the economic picture in a Libertarian government.



I'm aware of that.  I'm also aware that the alternative they propose is totally unrealistic at best, or downright aristocratic at worst.

Quote:

Also, your first sentence reveals a fundamental flaw.  You're saying that people who have coverage now will keep it, and we will cover people who don't.  The question is, where does that money come from?  It doesn't materialize out of thin air.



Of course.  It comes from those making over $250,000 a year.  And much of that tax hike is really just closing some of those loopholes.

Quote:

It will come from capital investment reserves from high-income people (job creation, in case you didn't notice unemployment is the MAIN issue on people's minds today), and from the huge middle-income tax bracket, you know, the people who are worried about unemployment.



Bullshit.  $250,000/yr or more is doing pretty damn well.  And "capital investment reserves" come from bank loans, which can be expected to increase as the banks are starting to make big profits again.


Quote:

That's why Obama's socialized medicine fell flat on it's face.  It all sounds good until you're paying the fucking bills and looking at your FICA and Federal Taxes and looking at your kids going "what about my kids?"



You have no clue what the hell socialism is, and if you're making over a quarter million dollars a year, I don't pity you in the slightest.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: UpSwell]
    #10900014 - 08/20/09 07:56 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

UpSwell said:
I say you take the ADMINISTRATIVE costs out of health care, i.e. the government, fat ambulance-chasing lawyers, huge insurance premiums (biggest cost for any phsyician), and you have MORE than enough margin to enable primary-care physicians to offer health care to low-income Americans (many want to but can't afford to because of ins premiums), more insurance companies to choose from (and the internet to help people choose, even poor Americans have a web browser somewhere), and you've got a better system for everyone.



Administrative costs are precisely what government health care would reduce.

Quote:

The solution is NOT to pay even MORE money to government oversight committees and beauracrats and regulations and red tape and all the rest of the crap that have nothing to do with health care and everything to do with keeping political actions committees, retirement funds, and big pensions for people who provide no care at all.



What you just described sounds just like private insurance companies today.  I sense some projection going on here.


--------------------

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OfflineDeeGee
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: niteowl]
    #10900035 - 08/20/09 07:59 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

This one time I went to a university and got a bachelor of science in health science.

The most important thing they tried to teach us was that health care should be a civil right.


--------------------
DG
:plur:

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OfflineUpSwell
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: Silversoul]
    #10900053 - 08/20/09 08:01 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

UpSwell said:
If you were a Libertarian then you'd know that the 'tax loopholes' that benefit the rich are not a part of the economic picture in a Libertarian government.



I'm aware of that.  I'm also aware that the alternative they propose is totally unrealistic at best, or downright aristocratic at worst.

Quote:

Also, your first sentence reveals a fundamental flaw.  You're saying that people who have coverage now will keep it, and we will cover people who don't.  The question is, where does that money come from?  It doesn't materialize out of thin air.



Of course.  It comes from those making over $250,000 a year.  And much of that tax hike is really just closing some of those loopholes.

Quote:

It will come from capital investment reserves from high-income people (job creation, in case you didn't notice unemployment is the MAIN issue on people's minds today), and from the huge middle-income tax bracket, you know, the people who are worried about unemployment.



Bullshit.  $250,000/yr or more is doing pretty damn well.  And "capital investment reserves" come from bank loans, which can be expected to increase as the banks are starting to make big profits again.


Quote:

That's why Obama's socialized medicine fell flat on it's face.  It all sounds good until you're paying the fucking bills and looking at your FICA and Federal Taxes and looking at your kids going "what about my kids?"



You have no clue what the hell socialism is, and if you're making over a quarter million dollars a year, I don't pity you in the slightest.




Wrong, capital investments do not come mainly from banks they come mainly from small business owners.  I.e., people who make over $250,000 a year.  This is a popular misconception that people who make six figures are all rich.  Any economic recovery is not fueled by banks it is fueled by small business owners who make investments to make a profit, i.e. buying capital goods and hiring more people.

There is also the Democrat misconception that tax hikes will only happen to the 'rich'.  That has NEVER happened.  Whenever there is a new government program, it is ALWAYS extended to the middle class, people who do NOT make a quarter mil a year, and for whom a 5% tax hike would be disasterous, especially when they can't find a job because the 'rich' small business owner can't afford to hire them because of HIS tax hike and government mandate insurance premiums.

These are fundamental misunderstandings about how our economy works which leads to more government, more taxes, and less money to pay for things like health care.

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OfflineUpSwell
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Re: Socialized Medicine is retarded : Decade long Wars, now THATS Genius [Re: DeeGee]
    #10900067 - 08/20/09 08:03 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DeeGee said:
This one time I went to a university and got a bachelor of science in health science.

The most important thing they tried to teach us was that health care should be a civil right.




Health care IS a civil right.  If you have a broken arm you CANNOT be refused health care.

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