|
 ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
 
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
 Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me
#10565640 - 06/24/09 02:54 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
DON'T TALK ABOUT THE WEATHER
so here is the deal, whenever this "chemtrails" issue is discussed people seem to get extremely offended and say things like...
"you have no brain"
"you are paranoid"
"you are crazy"
but they never seem to tell me why my beliefs are crazy, they just are.
so...
since so many people are so passionate about telling me how wrong I am, I am offering a chance for them to "save me". I want to be shown where my reasoning becomes illogical and just plain wrong.
I picked this documentary because it contains some very good video footage of the phenomenon and then attempts to explain it in a scientific and historical context. All of its assertions are laid out in a easy to understand logical progression that I think makes total sense.
I am inviting everyone to correct me where they see fit. Mods if you feel this needs to go into a different forum then by all means...
I really want this thread to be about coming to the truth of the matter and not a "I'm right your wrong" war. If somebody can show me where the video makes a mistake or bends the truth too much then direct me to it and we can start some discussion from there. I want us to truly learn from this. We can't deny the fact that this phenomenon is being documented all over the world so what is going on?
So if you've gotten this far then click the above link and take some notes. I appreciate everyone's time. Thank you.
-the chief-
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
 OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,361
Loc: Luxor
|
 Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10565711 - 06/24/09 03:07 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Seeing as how you have not made a single statement to rebut... 
Please debunk the dictionary. TY.
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,754
Loc: Sugar Town
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10565810 - 06/24/09 03:25 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
i see thees cuntrails all the time you mean to tell me they aren't naduarl?
--------------------
Don't worry be happy.
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10566344 - 06/24/09 05:14 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Seeing as how you have not made a single statement to rebut...
Please debunk the dictionary. TY.
I see what your saying orgone. I could make many statements arguing the existence of chemtrails, but I thought that might 'color' the entire thread with a 'chemtrails exist' stance.
it seems to me that a lot of the "rational people" won't even look at the information that chemtrails POSSIBLY exist. they just scoff at the entire notion with no investigation. so much for being open-minded.
I thought if I let the video represent my side of the argument it would encourage a critique on the information itself and not a personal "your just stupid" type argument.
instead of tearing me apart for believing in chemtrails, just have at the video. I'm afraid though that a lot of people will just shrug this off as a "waste of their time" or "this is just a stupid youtube video". I hope someone will prove me wrong.
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10566477 - 06/24/09 05:41 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
That video is 27 parts. I'm not watching 27parts worht of osmething I think is stupid.
Quote:
but I thought that might 'color' the entire thread with a 'chemtrails exist' stance.
The title of your thread is prove they don't exist. Also, you admit you believe in them. And further more why are you afraid of that
--------------------
|
LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,754
Loc: Sugar Town
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10566499 - 06/24/09 05:46 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Seeing as how you have not made a single statement to rebut...
Please debunk the dictionary. TY.
I see what your saying orgone. I could make many statements arguing the existence of chemtrails, but I thought that might 'color' the entire thread with a 'chemtrails exist' stance.
it seems to me that a lot of the "rational people" won't even look at the information that chemtrails POSSIBLY exist. they just scoff at the entire notion with no investigation. so much for being open-minded.
I thought if I let the video represent my side of the argument it would encourage a critique on the information itself and not a personal "your just stupid" type argument.
instead of tearing me apart for believing in chemtrails, just have at the video. I'm afraid though that a lot of people will just shrug this off as a "waste of their time" or "this is just a stupid youtube video". I hope someone will prove me wrong.
dont be so defensive breathe that barium oxide deeply aaahhhh feels good dont it?
--------------------
Don't worry be happy.
|
sterbeklang
w/e
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 824
Loc: Filthy Rock
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10566636 - 06/24/09 06:13 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
You've watched the documentary right, GreenLeaf? So why can't you detail all the evidence, write it down, edit it, narrow it down, edit it some more, rewrite it, make a synopsis and present it to us in a format that doesn't require us to watch 27 videos we don't want to watch? You need to do some work if you want to convert non-believers. It's not going to happen overnight.
(Actually... this is a pet peeve of mine... people who post long articles they didn't write or long videos they didn't make, tell us to go spend our precious time soaking up THEIR interests, then report back here to acknowledge them. But I'll let you off the hook today because you're obviously going through hard times. Normally I would ignore you, just to keep from flaming you myself and getting banned. Trust me when I tell you I'm trying to be kind and helpful, because I have a very close friend with similar beliefs as yours and even though I don't share those beliefs, I like her. We get along well. There is no easy way out of this. You have to put forth some serious personal effort. Unfortunately, she won't put forth the effort either... which just ads to the disbelief. This is your mission. Make it your own. I don't care if you have to go get a degree in Aerospace Engineering... just DO IT. It's up to YOU to tell the world the truth.  )
--------------------
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: sterbeklang]
#10568032 - 06/24/09 10:43 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
That video is several hours long at least. Could you make a few statements, like, what does the video state the chemtrails are made of, and the intention in putting them up there?
Offhand, I have read that in the right conditions, contrails can attract moisture and grow, but it does seem that some of the pictures show excessive numbers of contrails. It is possible that the more impressive pictures are taken close to airports, though that's just a guess.
Legitimate uses (secret or otherwise) could be cloud formation for rain, or as a way to combat global warming, though I'm not convinced the government actually believes in global warming.
If it was being used for some nefarious purpose, it would seem easier, more effective, and more target specific to spike the water supply or food supply. And there is questionable information. For instance, it's quite hard to sample a chemtrail. Why are believers so sure it's composed of metallic particles?
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10568238 - 06/24/09 11:22 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
it seems to me that a lot of the "rational people" won't even look at the information that chemtrails POSSIBLY exist. they just scoff at the entire notion with no investigation. so much for being open-minded.
That is incorrect. Rational people do have an open mind, they consider if chemtrails exist and come to the conclusion they do not. Just because they don't come to the same conclusion as you doesn't mean they didn't have an open mind and investigate.
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10568285 - 06/24/09 11:29 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I will admit it's "possible" that chemtrails exist. I mean, I don't trust the government. But it's a big jump from possibility to truth.
What should we investigate? Beyond all the conjecture, and video of what appears to be contrails, what is there to investigate?
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
jivJaN
yes
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,054
Last seen: 5 hours, 34 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10568949 - 06/25/09 02:03 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
OH shit.
i had to interrupt watching the video immediately.
i see that shit constantly when im outside.
ever since my first time with the mushroom.
CONSTANTLY. just like in the video... and only at night.
its almost annoying sometimes.
going back to watching the video.
--------------------
---------------------
All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
|
jivJaN
yes
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,054
Last seen: 5 hours, 34 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: jivJaN]
#10568966 - 06/25/09 02:10 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
looks like i interrupted watching it too soon.
the ones i see are only at night.. and look like the ones at the beginning , when they're going really fast.
its more like shooting stars.. only they're made out of just light... and they disappear very quickly.
could be my hppd with all the phone lines
--------------------
---------------------
All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10569004 - 06/25/09 02:21 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Qubit said:
Quote:
it seems to me that a lot of the "rational people" won't even look at the information that chemtrails POSSIBLY exist. they just scoff at the entire notion with no investigation. so much for being open-minded.
That is incorrect. Rational people do have an open mind, they consider if chemtrails exist and come to the conclusion they do not. Just because they don't come to the same conclusion as you doesn't mean they didn't have an open mind and investigate.
He also seemed to pick pretty ridiculous straw man "arguments" to represent the other side. Calling someone crazy isn't an argument, everybody can agree.
RE: chemtraisl claims
How can anyone believe someone's claim based on observational study and analysis when we don't know what the data is, what the methodology used to collect it was, what the analysis was and why, and what the conclusions were and why? They'll make an hour long video but won't do some simple writeups with their evidence and reasoning so that others may replicate their findings?
I've no interest in watching a long video. I watched part of it previously and it was the usual shit: no description of methodology and analysis and conclusory statements that are impossible to support. If there is an argument the proponents should make it rather than editing video of pointless shit. Its not difficult to provide this information, the only thing I can conclude is that they don't care at all about convincing rational people, or that they know a description of their means of methodology, data, analysis, and such will not support their conclusions. Either way, it doesn't speak highly for the beliefs being promoted when a fifth grader's science fair volcano has more robust investigations and writeups then the whole of the chemtrail advocates' efforts.
|
Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 36,989
Loc: Colorado 
Last seen: 5 hours, 10 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10569490 - 06/25/09 06:29 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
it seems to me that a lot of the "rational people" won't even look at the information that chemtrails POSSIBLY exist. they just scoff at the entire notion with no investigation. so much for being open-minded.
I'm pretty open-minded. And I believe some unusual things, like that there are bigfoots.
ut I can't make any sense out of chemtrails. I don't understand why 'aluminum' is supposed to matter anyway, since it is inert. Or why the stuff is being sprayed some places and not others. I don't understand why it's being sprayed and not just put in our water. Or put in food.
Mostly, I don't understand the idea that thousands and thousands of people are keeping this secret. That to me seems utterly absurd. There's just no way that every single person involved maintains perfect silence, it's humanly impossible.
--------------------
.
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10570067 - 06/25/09 10:00 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
DON'T TALK ABOUT THE WEATHER
so here is the deal, whenever this "chemtrails" issue is discussed people seem to get extremely offended and say things like...
"you have no brain"
"you are paranoid"
"you are crazy"
but they never seem to tell me why my beliefs are crazy, they just are.
so...
since so many people are so passionate about telling me how wrong I am, I am offering a chance for them to "save me". I want to be shown where my reasoning becomes illogical and just plain wrong.
I picked this documentary because it contains some very good video footage of the phenomenon and then attempts to explain it in a scientific and historical context. All of its assertions are laid out in a easy to understand logical progression that I think makes total sense.
I am inviting everyone to correct me where they see fit. Mods if you feel this needs to go into a different forum then by all means...
I really want this thread to be about coming to the truth of the matter and not a "I'm right your wrong" war. If somebody can show me where the video makes a mistake or bends the truth too much then direct me to it and we can start some discussion from there. I want us to truly learn from this. We can't deny the fact that this phenomenon is being documented all over the world so what is going on?
So if you've gotten this far then click the above link and take some notes. I appreciate everyone's time. Thank you.
-the chief-
K, I'll debunk it
Everything's fine. No government ever has talked about geo engineering. These new cloud formations are just because people haven't been paying attention to the sky for the past sixty million years. Planes sometimes have short trails, or long and lingering trails. Who knows why? It's a mystery. Whatever it is, it's certainly safe, because who'd ever knowingly, or unknowingly poison their own people?
Or just, y'know. Watch the film, pause it when there's something you disagree with, and put it into google.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,539
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10570096 - 06/25/09 10:06 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
All the chem trail folk in my town wear tin foil hats. 
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10570376 - 06/25/09 10:59 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Planes sometimes have short trails, or long and lingering trails. Who knows why? It's a mystery. Whatever it is, it's certainly safe, because who'd ever knowingly, or unknowingly poison their own people?
Or just, y'know. Watch the film, pause it when there's something you disagree with, and put it into google.
Really? You're just going to be sarcastic and assume you are correct? As to the above statement, we know why planes of contrails... it's condensation and water vapor... wow so scary.
--------------------
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,361
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Icelander]
#10570522 - 06/25/09 11:24 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
All the chem trail folk in my town wear tin foil hats.
And those that don't are fanboys of Walsh. You and V must feel very lonely living among the gullible.
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10570796 - 06/25/09 12:16 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sterbeklang said:
You've watched the documentary right, GreenLeaf? So why can't you detail all the evidence, write it down, edit it, narrow it down, edit it some more, rewrite it, make a synopsis and present it to us in a format that doesn't require us to watch 27 videos we don't want to watch? You need to do some work if you want to convert non-believers. It's not going to happen overnight.
Well I'm not going to spend 5 hours pulling together all that information just so others can shit all over me (like 90% of the replies in here).
The video is there, it's only two hours. I've already tried just pulling up the sources from the movie and presenting them. Here let me show you, this was from another thread that started into this disscusion.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/hr2977.html
Why the fuck would our government right bills about things that didn't exist?
Quote:
(B) Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as--
(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;
(ii) CHEMTRAILS;
(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;
(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;
(v) laser weapons systems;
(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and
(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.
Please, I challenge a skeptic to debunk this.
and this...
http://www.fas.org/spp/military/docops/usaf/2025/v3c15/v3c15-1.htm
and the reply...
Quote:
beatyou said:
Lol, that is your proof? A random bill that didn't even pass through the house? Your 'proof' was never even signed into law, and bills can be written by ANYONE. That bill in particular is so weak it was introduced for review and killed the same day. This is a completely insignificant document, thanks for playing though! Maybe if you actually knew how to critically think and use your brain/read you would know this.
Like I already said, this is one of the most ridiculous conspiracy theories out there and it is hilarious you uneducated simple minded mother fuckers buy into any youtube vid you see online with no research or work done on your part.
Just cause you don't understand clouds & the atmosphere doesn't mean the govt is out to get you.
Post some more 'gotcha' docs lol
so you can see how I've been abused. I'm so delicate now...
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,361
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10570861 - 06/25/09 12:27 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Please, I challenge a skeptic to debunk this.
I challenge you to prevent two or three clear concise ideas and you may get an actual discussion. Rambling all over the place and then whining will get you exactly what you got.
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10570946 - 06/25/09 12:38 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
johnm, I just had to call you out. so from what I get, you are really big into getting data and methodology, etc. that's cool, i get that. but I want to ask.
Have you collected data showing they are just water vapor?
Until you do that we don't know if it is a water condensation trail, metal aerosols, or magic fairy dust. you see where I'm going with this?
It's not like you went and got data on the trails and saw that it was just water. you read someone else's ideas on it and they made sense to you. you put the ideas together into a belief. you didn't have to collect data, but you could understand the principles behind the phenomenon and make your own conclusions from an UNDERSTANDING of a perspective (subjective or objective, depends). correct me if I'm wrong here but this is how most of us learn, no?
personally, I see no problem with this line of thinking. we don't have to go collect data for every little thought that pops into our head. we can put together mental models for how we think things work. sometimes we get it right sometimes we get it wrong.
the problem here is that no one has to get evidence for it being water vapor, that's a given. that's just considered "common knowledge". chemtrail hypotheses requires data, the water vapor hypothesis doesn't. am I the only one who sees this kind of thing?
I think that instead of putting all this energy into convincing others, we should just meet half way. I give you the doc, you watch it. tell me what ya think. if you are too busy to view it, that's cool, I respect that. But don't think that you can just say it is just water vapor, you haven't collected any data or seen my side of the argument. you would be forced to say you don't know, which is ok too.
and maybe you re thinking well if no data has been collected how can anyone know? well through the same process that led you to the water vapor conclusion. you read someone else's thoughts, they explain the underlying principle, it makes sense to you........
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10570986 - 06/25/09 12:44 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Heaps and heaps of data have been collected for over a hundred years that show the products of a combustion reaction include water vapor.
Do you deny that the combustion of jet fuel produces water vapor as a product? 
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10571051 - 06/25/09 12:51 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Qubit said:
Heaps and heaps of data have been collected for over a hundred years that show the products of a combustion reaction include visible water vapor.
Do you deny that the combustion of jet fuel produces water vapor as a product?
no and you are right. the combustion produces water. at high altitudes some of the water freezes, but it is quickly unfrozen. and i know under super special conditions this can linger and appear to be a chemtrail, but the majority of normal airplanes look like little tadpoles. they have a head (the airplane) and a tail (condensation trail) if the plane turns the tail turns with it, it doesn't trace its entire path in the sky.
this picture shows the differences
the documentary covers this
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10571069 - 06/25/09 12:53 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
thats great but your 'chemtrail' appears to be much closer than the 'contrail' which would account for the size difference.
--------------------
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10571073 - 06/25/09 12:54 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
they have a head (the airplane) and a tail (condensation trail) if the plane turns the tail turns with it, it doesn't trace its entire path in the sky.
That is entirely incorrect. Contrails of water vapor can and do linger and can and do trace an entire path in the sky. Both of those pictured are contrails, despite the 'evidence' of the superimposed word 'chemtrail'.
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10571098 - 06/25/09 12:56 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Please, I challenge a skeptic to debunk this.
I challenge you to prevent two or three clear concise ideas and you may get an actual discussion. Rambling all over the place and then whining will get you exactly what you got.
so far I've got.
-links to 'the space preservation bill of 2001' and a question why would a bill be written about things that aren't real
-I posted a picture and explained the visual differences between condensation trails and chemtrail
-I posted the doc
I really don't know what to do? I'm trying. Direct me towards the hoops that need jumping through.
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10571133 - 06/25/09 12:59 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
You posted a picture of one thing that is in the foreground and something in the background and you declare that because one of them appears bigger (disregarding its proximity and thus it appears bigger) that it is evidence of something called a "Chemtrail"
I saw no visible difference between the two
--------------------
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: learningtofly]
#10571134 - 06/25/09 12:59 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
learningtofly said:
thats great but your 'chemtrail' appears to be much closer than the 'contrail' which would account for the size difference.
if it was that close then it would not be above 5 miles. contrails do not generally form unless you are 5 miles high
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10571148 - 06/25/09 01:00 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
do you have a measuring stick to tell me how high each of those were?
--------------------
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10571162 - 06/25/09 01:01 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Qubit said:
Quote:
they have a head (the airplane) and a tail (condensation trail) if the plane turns the tail turns with it, it doesn't trace its entire path in the sky.
That is entirely incorrect. Contrails of water vapor can and do linger and can and do trace an entire path in the sky. Both of those pictured are contrails, despite the 'evidence' of the superimposed word 'chemtrail'.
there is a visual difference between them that's all we can say. what accounts for the difference?
look at my above post and tell me if that's not correct.
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: learningtofly]
#10571170 - 06/25/09 01:02 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
learningtofly said:
do you have a measuring stick to tell me how high each of those were?
when airplanes take off from the run way why don't they leave contrails then? because contrails form at 5 miles or higher
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10571192 - 06/25/09 01:05 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
 do you not understand that things in the foreground appear bigger than in the background?
--------------------
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10571201 - 06/25/09 01:06 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
-links to 'the space preservation bill of 2001' and a question why would a bill be written about things that aren't real
Answer: Anybody can write a bill. There is no rule that a bill must be written about things that are real. That bill never passed, probably because it was written about things that arnt real.
Quote:
-I posted a picture and explained the visual differences between condensation trails and chemtrail
All you posted was a picture dude. I can post one too, look.
Quote:
I really don't know what to do? I'm trying. Direct me towards the hoops that need jumping through.
See now, the title of your thread implys you want us to explain why chemtrails are not real. But now in the body of your thread you keep wanting us to believe you that chemtrails are real. So what is it, do you actually have an open mind and want to learn or are you just trying to convince us of your preconceived belief/faith?
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,361
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10571206 - 06/25/09 01:07 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
That is entirely incorrect. Contrails of water vapor can and do linger and can and do trace an entire path in the sky. Both of those pictured are contrails, despite the 'evidence' of the superimposed word 'chemtrail'.
Sorry, but you cannot argue with superimposition. 
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,361
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: learningtofly]
#10571220 - 06/25/09 01:09 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
learningtofly said:
do you not understand that things in the foreground appear bigger than in the background?
I keep trying to get my girlfriend to grok this concept. 
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10571223 - 06/25/09 01:10 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
He also appears to be unfamiliar with the format for how one goes about proving things. "Show me why my idea does not exist" is not how it works. You, the affirmative (greenleaf) must show us enough evidence as to shift the burden of proof (proving your idea wrong) to us.
Otherwise I could say "Prove that God DOESNT exist. You cant? Well then he must exist" and we all know that doesn't work.
And yes, I concede you posted a 27part video that I dont think anyone here wants to watch because its a complete waste of time. If you wrote down the important information from the video maybe we could attempt to debunk that
--------------------
|
Silversoul
Holon
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 22,562
Loc: Mostly harmless
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10571437 - 06/25/09 01:43 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
this picture shows the differences
the documentary covers this
So chemtrails are emitted by lower-flying planes?
--------------------
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Silversoul]
#10572143 - 06/25/09 03:39 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Chemtrails are emitted by people using mspaint to draw captions on photos of contrails
Back in the 70s there were almost no chemtrails. Now there are lots. The obvious explanation is that we all have computers and most of them come with mspaint. Therefore, mspaint causes chemtrails. QED.
Soon I will make a two hour long video about this.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Silversoul]
#10572779 - 06/25/09 05:39 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
this picture shows the differences
the documentary covers this
So chemtrails are emitted by lower-flying planes?
yes
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10572832 - 06/25/09 05:49 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Chemtrails are emitted by people using mspaint to draw captions on photos of contrails
Back in the 70s there were almost no chemtrails. Now there are lots. The obvious explanation is that we all have computers and most of them come with mspaint. Therefore, mspaint causes chemtrails. QED.
Soon I will make a two hour long video about this.
idk bout you but I can't ms paint real life.
it is what I see driving some mornings
planes making strange designs
did you know I called my local arkansas emergeny office
they do disasters and shit i guess
i asked them if there was a warning to stay inside
they hung up on me
I will attempt to outline
I sent my local news station an email about it and told them to go look outside and see it
CHIEF SAID:
So what are chemtrails? I would describe them as "lines in the sky". Sometimes these lines make grid patterns, X's, or other designs like triangles. It is easiest to see them right after they are sprayed. After a couple hours these lines spread out and look like thick, hazy clouds that usually block out the sun. Sometimes the trails are finer, sometimes heavier. After you become aware of the phenomenon it is easy to see the lines and with practice you can tell if cloud formations are a result of them. If you are reading this on the morning it was sent, then you can go outside and look. Some have been sprayed this morning. I'm in the West Little Rock area so depending on where you are, you might not get as good of a look, but I saw at least a dozen this morning so you should see something. If you read this in the late afternoon then by that time I bet they have already diffused across the sky. The sky will be white and you will be able to look directly into the sun with no eyestrain (that's a big change since just last week, we've been having springtime weather).
There is clip about them happening here in Arkansas.
There is a clip about them in California.
It not just the US, this is happening all over the world. It definitely deserves some attention.
Now here is a research paper that I stumbled upon. I think it also appears in the documentary (last link), although I found it before ever seeing the film.
http://www.fas.org/spp/military/docops/usaf/2025/v3c15/v3c15-1.htm
It can be summed up like this. Some branch of the military in corroboration with scientists knows how to control the weather (and other atmospheric phenomenon) by spraying heavy metal aerosols into the atmosphere. Barium to track wind patterns (just like nuclear medicine uses isotopes to track bloodflow) and aluminum oxide to deflect heat back into space thus creating temperature variance (high vs low pressure). This has been done before in Vietnam (called Project Pop'eye). They can also use technology like HARRP (High Altitude Auroral Research Project), which has the ability to create intense electromagnetic induction in the atmosphere, thus also controlling the upper ionosphere (the same stuff that causes the aura borealis).......
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10572926 - 06/25/09 06:14 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
johnm, I just had to call you out. so from what I get, you are really big into getting data and methodology, etc. that's cool, i get that. but I want to ask.
Yeah, that's the only way you can verify someone's conclusion. The chemtrail stuff I've seen has just been conclusory statement with random data- impossible to verify or refute the conclusions. Its the equivalent of saying "I'm correct". That's not an argument.
Quote:
Have you collected data showing they are just water vapor?
Until you do that we don't know if it is a water condensation trail, metal aerosols, or magic fairy dust. you see where I'm going with this?
Yes, I see where you are going, but I don't get the point. If its just that its not disproven, well of course that's correct. But so what? The burden is on the proponent to support their claim- there is no point discussing whether hypothetical facts and analysis might produce hypothetical conclusions.
I've not seen any well supported claims for chemtrails, that's my point. Untill we know why these guys are concluding what they are concluding it is pointless to discuss it. I could declare all sorts of things, but untill my work can be known and verified or refuted, then there's really no point in discussing what could possibly be.
Quote:
It's not like you went and got data on the trails and saw that it was just water. you read someone else's ideas on it and they made sense to you. you put the ideas together into a belief.
huh? No I didn't. When there's no well supported argument the reasonable thing to do is to not form a belief. Certainly I suspect they are just water, but that's more of a heurisitical approach and isn't something I would claim support for- just a hypothesis using occam's razor. Chemtrails requires far more presumptions than does contrails, so I'm guessing the later, but I don't know.
Quote:
you didn't have to collect data, but you could understand the principles behind the phenomenon and make your own conclusions from an UNDERSTANDING of a perspective (subjective or objective, depends). correct me if I'm wrong here but this is how most of us learn, no?
Who cares? What matters is what is correct. Untill there is support for a conclusion it is unreasonable to espouse it as truth. That seems the situation with chemtrails.
Quote:
personally, I see no problem with this line of thinking. we don't have to go collect data for every little thought that pops into our head. we can put together mental models for how we think things work. sometimes we get it right sometimes we get it wrong.
Ok, so what? I'm not criticizing the fact that people want to test a hypothesis, I'm critical of the fact that people are concluding the hypothesis is valid when there is pretty much nothing at all in the way of evidence beyond just naked declarations of "I'm correct" and random pictures whos relevance is very unclear.Quote:
the problem here is that no one has to get evidence for it being water vapor, that's a given. that's just considered "common knowledge". chemtrail hypotheses requires data, the water vapor hypothesis doesn't. am I the only one who sees this kind of thing?
No, this is what I'm accusing the chemtrail proponents of doing- I certainly hope I am not commiting the same folly. I'm not making claims.
The fact that the public can't even identify there is another more reasonable choice between accepting the hypothesis and accepting the null hypothesis reveals the crux of the problem, imo. When you don't have the support for either, it is reasonable to be uncertain, not to blindly adopt some line of thinking.
I think this is the fundamental problem- people don't understand logical methodology. This is how science opperates. When you fail to support your hypothesis that doesn't mean you accept the null hypothesis- it only means you fail to exclude it from possibility and are left with uncertainty.
I really think if the public understood this it would be a better world- failure to find support for one option doesn't garner support for the other or lessen support for the former.
Quote:
I think that instead of putting all this energy into convincing others,
I'm not convincing others, I'm asking what evidence there is and being routinely disappointed that people think that being able to support their conclusions and replicate their findings is sophistry.
Quote:
we should just meet half way. I give you the doc, you watch it. tell me what ya think. if you are too busy to view it, that's cool, I respect that. But don't think that you can just say it is just water vapor, you haven't collected any data or seen my side of the argument. you would be forced to say you don't know, which is ok too.
Yes, of course I say I don't know.
Is there actually a description of the data, methodology of collection, analysis and description of such, and conclusions listed, all with discussion for why such was done and what they believe the results to show?
I can see no reason to watch people just show pictures and make naked conclusory claims. If that's not what the video is, then let me know.
Quote:
and maybe you re thinking well if no data has been collected how can anyone know? well through the same process that led you to the water vapor conclusion. you read someone else's thoughts, they explain the underlying principle, it makes sense to you........
No, I didn't conclude they are water vapor, though I think that's most likely.
It is unreasonable to believe in things without evidence. I've not seen any supportive evidence for chemtrails, and the fact that they've actually collected some data and yet won't disclose their methodology and show their reasoning makes me doubly suspicious.
If a middle school science lab has students disclose this information when watching magnets attract or some silly thing like that, why can't the chemtrails proponents be bothered to disclose such?
Naked conclusions are not an argument and they don't become more of one when coupled with random (or worse: purposely selected without any methodologicly sound criteria) pictures.
|
Huehuecoyotl
Stranger
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,158
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10573394 - 06/25/09 07:33 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Why believe in something just to say your being poisoned. A warrior would act if they thought it was true, but the original poster is just interested in being disenfranchised...not interested in acting. That is the way of all conspiracy freaks...all talk and no positive action. If I believed this bullshit I would raise 9 kinds of hell.
--------------------
Maybe there is no Heaven. Maybe this is all pure gibberish — a product of the demented imagination of a lazy drunken hillbilly with a heart full of hate who has found a way to live out where the real winds blow — to sleep late, have fun, get wild, drink whiskey, and drive fast on empty streets with nothing in mind except falling in love and not getting arrested...
--HST
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#10573424 - 06/25/09 07:37 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Why believe in something just to say your being poisoned. A warrior would act if they thought it was true, but the original poster is just interested in being disenfranchised...not interested in acting. That is the way of all conspiracy freaks...all talk and no positive action. If I believed this bullshit I would raise 9 kinds of hell.
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10573767 - 06/25/09 08:30 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I was a kid in the 70's. I can remember long contrails back then, stretching across the sky. This phenomena is nothing new.
As I was driving around today (in NC) I looked up, and there were contrails all over (not kidding). Some were quite wide, some were narrow, but it was apparent they weren't just clouds. So we've got these things in the Carolinas, Nevada, Canada, New York, Australia, Britain... they seem to be everywhere planes go. The point is, if these are truly chemtrails, the program is absolutely HUGE. How could that be kept secret? We're talking many thousands of participants, military and civilian. Not only that, most of them would have to be deceived. What pilot would be willing to spray toxic powder, then land and walk around in their handy work?
Point 2: In private circles, I doubt global warming or cooling is seriously considered to the point that global stealth action is already being taken, which if the truth is as dire as the theory suggests, would be injurious to the health of those who they are seeking to protect from the consequences of adverse weather. At least with warming, only the poor are injured. Spraying toxic powder everywhere would affect rich and poor alike, Senators and paupers, and all the people participating in the program. It could potentially contaminate food crops. The ones we're trying to protect from adverse weather. And water supplies. It makes no sense that A- it would be done, or B- that if true, the truth hasn't leaked all over the place.
Point 3: The document you site indicates a desire for the technologies to exist, and be fully understood, but does not indicate the desire to spray toxic chemicals, blanket like, on the population. I have no doubt the US military and other high level groups have their hand in every conceivable technology, but to create a program involving thousands of pilots, committing injurious actions, for the purpose of alleviating a condition that possibly doesn't exist, just doesn't hold water. If these programs are for defensive and offensive purposes, they would not be using them on a daily basis over civilian airspace.
Point 4: It's already possible to observe wind patterns. Why on Earth would any group spray toxic chemicals in the air, day after day, all across the globe, just to see which way the wind is blowing? Never mind the toxic aspect, what about the cost? To track wind patterns?
Quote:
i asked them if there was a warning to stay inside
they hung up on me
Do you blame them? They probably get a lot of those calls. What do they know, even if the truth is nefarious? Nothing.
And if so many people as so sure about what is going on, where is the proof? I mean, if people are citing specific chemicals being used, where did they get their information? Is anyone accountable? Or are all these people simply parroting the paranoid, unsubstantiated information they found on the net? You don't need us to disprove it for you, you need to prove it for yourself. If there is any credibility beyond wild eyed conjecture, the truth is out there (though I feel that most of the people who hype chemtrails don't have it). I do appreciate the fact that you are not so sure of yourself to proclaim it as a fact, but rather, ask us to help you investigate.
But I see no means of lending the issue any further credibility, beyond ferreting around on the internet for some sliver of truth, which I have no doubt many thousands of people are already doing.
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
wowitch17
Growery is Better
Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 8,537
Loc: Chile
Last seen: 3 months, 13 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10577236 - 06/26/09 02:01 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
OP needs to slow down on the LSD
--------------------
|
beatyou
one
Registered: 02/21/06
Posts: 618
Loc: austin, tx
Last seen: 3 months, 3 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: wowitch17]
#10577284 - 06/26/09 02:12 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
its easy to see why people get pulled into this shit so easily.
the nature of audio/video media is that the audience is completely passive & captive, so the viewer just absorbs whatever is on the screen, without question, without being able to question the presenter, check facts, etc. Youtube is not a classroom, youtube is not where one should be gaining knowledge. Videos are entertainment and should be treated that way.
Congrats OP, YOUR the only brainwashed dolt around here. Learn2Read.
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: beatyou]
#10578083 - 06/26/09 04:53 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
wowitch17 said:
OP needs to slow down on the LSD
Quote:
beatyou said:
its easy to see why people get pulled into this shit so easily.
the nature of audio/video media is that the audience is completely passive & captive, so the viewer just absorbs whatever is on the screen, without question, without being able to question the presenter, check facts, etc. Youtube is not a classroom, youtube is not where one should be gaining knowledge. Videos are entertainment and should be treated that way.
Congrats OP, YOUR the only brainwashed dolt around here. Learn2Read.
This is exactly what I'm talking about
you have already made up your mind that this is an unimportant issue
and then you think I need to chill out on acid? wtf? I don't even do acid or shrooms mind you
i read lots actually, probably more then you
it's just that this video condenses hours of reading in to a presentable easy to understand form
but I take it no one is going to watch the video
I would watch a documentary about debunking chemtrails
anyone know of a good one?
here is more info. should I stop or will someone look at this? did anybody watch those other two videos I posted? (they were under ten minutes btw)
Jay Michaelson 1998 Geoengineering: A climate change Manhattan Project - Stanford Environmental Law Journal January - http://www.metatronics.net/lit/geo2.html#two
Edward Teller (director emeritus, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory), "The Planet Needs a Sunscreen" Wall Street Journal, October 17, 1997. - http://www.ncpa.org/pi/enviro/envpd/pdenv125.html
Climate Change 2001: Working Group III: Mitigation - by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change - http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg3/index.htm
Ramanathan, V. 1988. The greenhouse theory of climate change: A test by an inadvertent experiment. Science 243:293 299 http://www.gfdl.gov/~gth/netscape/authors/ramaswamy.html
Schimel, D., D. Alves, I. Enting, M. Heimann, F. Joos, D. Raynaud, T., Wigley, M. Prather, R. Derwent, D. Ehhalt, P. Fraser, E. Sanheuza, X., Zhou, P. Jonas, R. Charlson, H. Rodhe, S., Sadasivan, K. P. Shine, Y. Fouquart, V. Ramaswamy, S. Solomon, J., Srinivasan, D. Albritton, I. Isaksen, M. Lal, and D. Wuebbles, 1996: Radiative forcing of climate change. In Climate Change 1995: The Science of Climate Change, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 69-131. http://www.gfdl.gov/~gth/netscape/authors/ramaswamy.html
Ramaswamy, V., R. J. Charlson, J. A. Coakley, J. L. Gras, Harshvardhan, G. Kukla, M. P. McCormick, D. Moller, E. Roeckner, L. L. Stowe, and J. Taylor, 1995: Group report: what are the observed and anticipated meteorological and climatic responses to aerosol forcing? In Aerosol Forcing of Climate, Vol. 20. John Wiley & Sons Ltd., 386-399.
http://www.gfdl.gov/~gth/netscape/authors/ramaswamy.html
Ramaswamy, V., 1988: Aerosol radiative forcing and model responses. In Aerosols and Climate, A. Deepak Publishing, 349-372
http://www.gfdl.gov/~gth/netscape/authors/ramaswamy.htm
Ramaswamy, V., and J. T. Kiehl. 1985. Sensitivities of the radiative forcing due to large loadings of smoke and dust aerosols. Journal of Geophysical Research 90(D3):5597 5613. http://www.gfdl.gov/~gth/netscape/authors/ramaswamy.html
Come on guys, wtf is going on here tell me what is in the video?
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10578130 - 06/26/09 05:02 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I will watch the original video you posted, and try to debunk it for you.
In return, I request that you reply to my 4 points in the previous post.
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10578152 - 06/26/09 05:06 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10578250 - 06/26/09 05:20 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I'm guessing I'm not the only one that ignores posts full of videos...
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,754
Loc: Sugar Town
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10578313 - 06/26/09 05:34 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
I'm guessing I'm not the only one that ignores posts full of videos...
I'm guessing you are a narc. Call it an educated guess.
--------------------
Don't worry be happy.
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: learningtofly]
#10578321 - 06/26/09 05:36 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Planes sometimes have short trails, or long and lingering trails. Who knows why? It's a mystery. Whatever it is, it's certainly safe, because who'd ever knowingly, or unknowingly poison their own people?
Or just, y'know. Watch the film, pause it when there's something you disagree with, and put it into google.
Really? You're just going to be sarcastic and assume you are correct? As to the above statement, we know why planes of contrails... it's condensation and water vapor... wow so scary.
Yeah, it is sarcasm. I'm not a dick, I know it's fucked up.
--------------------
|
LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,754
Loc: Sugar Town
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10578361 - 06/26/09 05:43 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Planes sometimes have short trails, or long and lingering trails. Who knows why? It's a mystery. Whatever it is, it's certainly safe, because who'd ever knowingly, or unknowingly poison their own people?
Or just, y'know. Watch the film, pause it when there's something you disagree with, and put it into google.
Really? You're just going to be sarcastic and assume you are correct? As to the above statement, we know why planes of contrails... it's condensation and water vapor... wow so scary.
Yeah, it is sarcasm. I'm not a dick, I know it's fucked up.
I am a dick, so I am going to assume many of you stupid fucks on here are just plain stupid fucks not worthy of the courtesy of even a reach around while being butt fucked. You can disagree all you want but until proven otherwise I am convinced you are not worthy of even a reach around.
Keep the Faith Chief the South Shall Rise Again.
--------------------
Don't worry be happy.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: LunarEclipse]
#10578396 - 06/26/09 05:49 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
I'm guessing you are a narc. Call it an educated guess.
If that's an educated guess then it explains a lot about your level of education.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,754
Loc: Sugar Town
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10578407 - 06/26/09 05:52 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
I'm guessing you are a narc. Call it an educated guess.
If that's an educated guess then it explains a lot about your level of education.
Thanks I am a narc school Grad Student.
--------------------
Don't worry be happy.
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: LunarEclipse]
#10578543 - 06/26/09 06:13 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Planes sometimes have short trails, or long and lingering trails. Who knows why? It's a mystery. Whatever it is, it's certainly safe, because who'd ever knowingly, or unknowingly poison their own people?
Or just, y'know. Watch the film, pause it when there's something you disagree with, and put it into google.
Really? You're just going to be sarcastic and assume you are correct? As to the above statement, we know why planes of contrails... it's condensation and water vapor... wow so scary.
Yeah, it is sarcasm. I'm not a dick, I know it's fucked up.
I am a dick, so I am going to assume many of you stupid fucks on here are just plain stupid fucks not worthy of the courtesy of even a reach around while being butt fucked. You can disagree all you want but until proven otherwise I am convinced you are not worthy of even a reach around.
Keep the Faith Chief the South Shall Rise Again.
so you're saying you're not watching the movie?
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,754
Loc: Sugar Town
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10578582 - 06/26/09 06:22 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
wow so scary.
so you're saying you're not watching the movie?
When the fuck did i say that either be a part of the solution or say stupid things methinks u might be involved with the latter effort
--------------------
Don't worry be happy.
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10578599 - 06/26/09 06:26 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I just found this on an old thread and thought it might be applicable here
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
What if logic itself was incorrect?
Then, silly Wiccan, we would not be communicating in this fashion.
Here is a question/issue that you may identify with. Is gay-bashing more likely to occur from using critical thinking or from emotionalism and borrowed beliefs?
Straight answer (no pun intended) please!
my answer?
we all use logic, but our logic isn't universal. you can share mathematical logic but not the ethical logic you speak of.
I myself think that all wars are illogical. there is no point, but to all the people that participated, they had "reasons"
to a gay-basher it is perfectly logical to hate gays. it was written in the bible that gay sex is wrong, therefor god doesn't like gays. by the transitive property of godly-ness then if god hates gays I should hate gays...
QED
so you see this isn't about logic. this is about developing our emotional bodies. this is about being able to see from others perspective, this is about seeing an animals perspective this is about understanding nature's perspective. we have to feel it until it resonates so deeply with our soul that then we truly want to understand. then it will happen. logic is a tool and some people have better tool skills then others
but it's all about what you define as better
logic is definitions, definitions come from emotions
to solve our problems we have to get to the emotions
so why are chemtrails so controversial?
how do we feel about that?
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,754
Loc: Sugar Town
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10578614 - 06/26/09 06:29 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
I just found this on an old thread and thought it might be applicable here
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
What if logic itself was incorrect?
Then, silly Wiccan, we would not be communicating in this fashion.
Here is a question/issue that you may identify with. Is gay-bashing more likely to occur from using critical thinking or from emotionalism and borrowed beliefs?
Straight answer (no pun intended) please!
my answer?
we all use logic, but our logic isn't universal. you can share mathematical logic but not the ethical logic you speak of.
I myself think that all wars are illogical. there is no point, but to all the people that participated, they had "reasons"
to a gay-basher it is perfectly logical to hate gays. it was written in the bible that gay sex is wrong, therefor god doesn't like gays. by the transitive property of godly-ness then if god hates gays I should hate gays...
QED
so you see this isn't about logic. this is about developing our emotional bodies. this is about being able to see from others perspective, this is about seeing an animals perspective this is about understanding nature's perspective. we have to feel it until it resonates so deeply with our soul that then we truly want to understand. then it will happen. logic is a tool and some people have better tool skills then others
but it's all about what you define as better
logic is definitions, definitions come from emotions
to solve our problems we have to get to the emotions
so why are chemtrails so controversial?
how do we feel about that?
whatever dude have a nice life
--------------------
Don't worry be happy.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10578785 - 06/26/09 07:03 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
so why are chemtrails so controversial?
how do we feel about that?
I'm guessing it's because the people who claim chemtrails are real are more adamant than they should be given the evidence. It's fine to think that they are possible (that's what having an open mind is about) but the evidence isn't very compelling. Yet it is compelling to some people, and they are very vocal about it. To everyone else this is irrational, which is why it appears controversial.
I'd argue that it's not really controversial at all. Some people think they're real, most people don't. No controversy there.
LunarEclipse: shut up. He wasn't talking to you.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: LunarEclipse]
#10578824 - 06/26/09 07:11 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
wow so scary.
so you're saying you're not watching the movie?
When the fuck did i say that either be a part of the solution or say stupid things methinks u might be involved with the latter effort
soulotion?
chembusters!
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10578876 - 06/26/09 07:22 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
so why are chemtrails so controversial?
how do we feel about that?
I'm guessing it's because the people who claim chemtrails are real are more adamant than they should be given the evidence. It's fine to think that they are possible (that's what having an open mind is about) but the evidence isn't very compelling. Yet it is compelling to some people, and they are very vocal about it. To everyone else this is irrational, which is why it appears controversial.
I'd argue that it's not really controversial at all. Some people think they're real, most people don't. No controversy there.
LunarEclipse: shut up. He wasn't talking to you.
You're right some people freak out and overreact to the notion and implications of chemtrails. I see them as having realized the problem, but they have no idea what to do about it. frustration naturally ensues.
and I think you are wrong about the evidence. it is compelling, you just have to look at it first. that's why I posted that doc. i feel it represents the actual evidence and not people running there mouth
maybe that's why I used to get upset over this? I feel that if any well thought person saw this evidence they would be convinced (or would have some serious questions to work out). I think most live in denial though. and I think it is because they haven't felt the issue, their logic keeps them from doing so
I can't deny what the video is saying, I have to accept that something is wrong and go from there. It's not my job to freak out about the "end of the world", that's what illuminatus wants everybody to do. disaster freakouts = $$$ and control
I have to spread healing on all levels. once people have experienced it, they start to understand this new (actually ancient) art of living.
namaste and god bless
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10579062 - 06/26/09 07:57 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I can't deny what the video is saying
I think that's the whole problem. Videos are not a good way of disseminating information because they don't encourage alternative viewpoints - all you get is the filmmaker's viewpoint.
Issues like this are best addressed through informed debate, allowing each side to respond to the opposing points, with evidence. That's the way science works, for instance. Videos (and books) are the opposite. I think they're modern-day sophism.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10579438 - 06/26/09 09:18 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
yes, exactly.
Videos are very long and VERY VERY VERY VERY low information density. Just hours of conclusory statements and random data- at best they'll give you more conclusory statements regarding proof but never actually disclose the data and anaylsis. They'll just say "tests show heavy metals in the sky! This shows chemtrails are likely real!" when that's totally worthless. I've asked chief for something, videos included, that actually disclose the data, methdology, analysis methods, and conclusions with explanation, but he's not provided anything. I'm guessing he's unaware of any legitimate analysis as well.
The issue isn't wanting to know what these people believe, but rather why. Too bad they just parrot claims over and over  as if that was at all helpful
This isn't hard, like I said I did more rigorous investigations in my middle school science projects with baking soda volcanos. These videos are all falsh and pizzazz and no substance. Would it kill these folks to actually state a hypothesis and then test it, or to study something and disclose the method, data, and findings?
Chief- it seems like your trying to portray the "your crazy" responses as the objections to these beliefs. You referenced them in your original post and did so again now. If you really care to convince people legitimate problems with the 'evidence' have been discussed. Why not satisfy those concerns instead of trying to make this about people oppressing you or brushing you off? I'm quite sure the reason people think your crazy is cuz you believe this stuff on no legitimate evidence.
Seems like qubit may have a point regarding suggesting your seeking oppression. Why else would you focus on obviously irrelevant personalisms in the face of serious objections that have never been satisfied or rebutted?
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10587837 - 06/28/09 04:57 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
idk what to say. the video is good. it has lots of evidence. you wouldnt know because you won't watch it. i don't understand how you can say that i don't provide evidence but i give you a two hour documentary that is very well thought out imo. i wouldn't post it if i didn't think it contained evidence. there really isn't anything else i can do. time will show you. when you realize the truth just do me a favor and think back to this thread. it is so scary to see people who parade around as intelligent be such fucking morons. guess it's not ur fault though.
IF YOU REALLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND THE ARGUMENT THEN WATCH THE FUCKING VIDEO
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10587935 - 06/28/09 05:22 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
If you cant even synthesize and present the evidence in the video then you don't understand it.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,361
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10588018 - 06/28/09 05:41 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
One doesn't have to understand something to be convinced of its veracity. 
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10588394 - 06/28/09 06:56 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Qubit said:
If you cant even synthesize and present the evidence in the video then you don't understand it.
Right, plus, I have watched part of it, maybe ten minutes of it.
It was very slow, and very useless.
If there is a portion that discusses the data, methodlogy, analysis of such, and their conclusions with reasoning given that can be verified, then point me to it.
I'm not going to search out someone's argument for them.
|
Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,331
Last seen: 23 hours, 57 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10589981 - 06/28/09 10:55 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I'm almost to the point of watching it, just so I can present an argument for him.
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Kickle]
#10590151 - 06/28/09 11:26 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Goodluck, its very long and apparently has very little information.
Just some guy taking pictures of the sky and issuing edicts about the cause.
This is likely why our proponent here can't come up with any evidence at all for their existance beyond conclusory statements without any evidentiary support.
I just don't understand why these people accept "these are chemtrails, they aren't contrails" as great evidence but won't accept "these aren't chemtrails" or "chemtrails don't exist".
Their definition of probative evidence changes based upon their prejudices, it seems. I can think of no other explanation for the dirth of evidence. I just skimmed through the first two parts, and it was just as I said: soem guy showing pictures of the sky and claiming things without any evidence at all.
Boy, science sure coudl move faster if we could just make discoveries by naked claims unsupported by evidence, couldn't it?
|
Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,331
Last seen: 23 hours, 57 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10590188 - 06/28/09 11:35 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Don't wish me luck just yet, I said 'almost' 
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10590415 - 06/29/09 12:27 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Boy, science sure coudl move faster if we could just make discoveries by naked claims unsupported by evidence, couldn't it?
Nah we'd get slowed down by having to watch videos all the time...
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,539
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10590649 - 06/29/09 01:28 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
i dont understand how otherwise intelligent people can be so fucking closed minded when it comes to government conspiracy.
Why would anyone disbelieve this stuff about chemtrails? it makes perfect sense from every angle...
the american government destroyed its own fucking buildings and claimed it was a terrorist attack. yet we all know people still like to think that some arabs took over planes and comandeered them into the trade centres.
no one wants to believe that they are just pawns in the greater scheme of a grand empire. But when has the world ever been different? The most prosperous times in history are also the times when huge empires with massive wealth and also massive slavery occur. Today it is no difference, but the leaders of the empire are no longer visible to the public.
Ever since the start of the 20th century, weapons systems are one of the biggest industries in the world.
you dont have to believe any of the conclusions that individuals have about WHAT the chemtrails are for.
but to deny they EXIST
BrAiNwAsH
--------------------
 
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Noteworthy]
#10590688 - 06/29/09 01:39 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
One could argue that those who believe the government is spraying chemicals from commercial aircraft are brainwashed. The evidence is poor. There's no motive. Why would you believe the theories?
I'm not closed-minded, I'm just skeptical. I will change my mind if presented with reproducible data from a reputable lab, showing the analysis of chemicals collected from one of these contrails. Until then, they are nothing more than ice particles suspended in the air as far as I'm concerned.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10590711 - 06/29/09 01:50 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Boy, science sure coudl move faster if we could just make discoveries by naked claims unsupported by evidence, couldn't it?
Nah we'd get slowed down by having to watch videos all the time...
Yeah, probably the only serious problem with my plan, but maybe we could stream youtube, the crucible of scientific progress, into the labs?
We could get rid of all those journals too, youtube has a comments section for peer review.
Quote:
Noteworthy said:
i dont understand how otherwise intelligent people can be so fucking closed minded when it comes to government conspiracy.
huh?
How is asking for evidence being closed minded? Isn't accepting shit without any evidence the definition of a closed mind? Just blindly grabbing whatever and shutting yourself off to the possiblity that it is incorrect?
Quote:
Why would anyone disbelieve this stuff about chemtrails? it makes perfect sense from every angle...
Probably because nobody is able to provide any evidence for them. In your rambling post about irrelevencies you've not provided any, and nor has anyone else.
Showing pictures with a narrator declaring various conclusions is not evidence of any probative nature. You couldn't even replicate these guys findings if you wanted to cuz you don't know what they are.
I think your being a little closed minded here, you've not even addressed the objections and instead ramble about 9/11 and other irrelevancies.
Open your mind, brah
|
Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,539
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10590759 - 06/29/09 02:10 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
what sort of evidence do you need?
im going to state these two basic premises, if you need evidence for them, it can be obtained. Please state whether you think these claims are unsubstantiated
1.these large trails of (some sort of) airborn substance exist.
2.they have no accepted purpose
thus we are left with the suspicion that something is going on. exactly what is going on is another issue. but we can tell some things - we can see that these clouds are composed of chemicals (due to the way they linger in the sky and persist in conditions that do not support traditional condensation release trails from commercial flights)
and are being released for a purpose (due to the way that they appear in patterns and not in ways that commercial flights navigate)
now, we know that the government is aware of this occuring because they have awareness of what planes are flying in the sky and what their purpose is. (if not before 9/11, then at least since)
You dont have to believe that the government is doing anything sinister.
all you have to realise is that the government is allowing the deposit of chemical vapours across vast areas of their own land, and the public has no access to information regarding what those vapour trails are who is responsible for them.
You can always say 'yes but it is more likely that the government is letting it happen because it is good for us, not bad for us'
thats different to claiming that these things dont exist lol.
i started noticing some the other day and I want to know what the hell is being deposited over my skyline. here in sydney. i thought some rich bastard was just wasting air-writing by flying in a straight line.
maybe you think that the public does not deserve information like that?
sure, just lay your cards out so you can have a position that is not just 'oh the funded media has not raised my concern on this topic so therefor it probably does not exist'.
AS FOR MOTIVES...
lol i wont begin to try to convince anyone that the government (ie the global network of 'First-World' parliaments, congress, bankers and industry superpowers) is different to how it has portrayed itself to its people over the past 100 years since 1913. if you are asking 'what motive would the government have to test its technological capabilities?' then i scratch my head at you
--------------------
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Noteworthy]
#10590815 - 06/29/09 02:36 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
1.these large trails of (some sort of) airborn substance exist.
2.they have no accepted purpose
thus we are left with the suspicion that something is going on.
Wait, how do you make that jump? Clouds have no accepted purpose either. Are you suspicious of them?
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
Edited by zouden (06/29/09 02:43 AM)
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Noteworthy]
#10590827 - 06/29/09 02:45 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
1.these large trails of (some sort of) airborn substance exist.
2.they have no accepted purpose
thus we are left with the suspicion that something is going on.
Products of engines have a purpose in the sense that the engine does.
Either way, your premises only reach the conclusion that something exists in teh air without acknowledged purpose, hardly supportive of chemtrails. That's just as supportive as contrails- no purpose by themselves excpet to the extent they are consequences of the engine.
The entire rest of your post is dependant upon a presumption you've no sustained by way of these premises (which I dispute anyways).
This is not a philsophical problem, you can not get around that. You will have to have some observational data supporting your favored explanation as probable, you can not surmount this by thought experiment or supposition, as the vary suppositions need demsontrating to tie the conclusion to the real world.
I've allready listed the usual course of things- collecting data with a stated and valid methodology and analyzing the data and providing the conclusions and analysis for open critique and so they may be reproduced. Untill these things are done and disclosed were left with your suppositions or with random pictures of unknown relevance and naked conclusions supported by nothing at all.
My counter argument of "studies show these to be contrails" or "chemtrails don't exist" are just as valid as these unsupported conclusions.
|
Sentient#6
Servant of the Gods
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 376
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10590886 - 06/29/09 03:45 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I watched a good portion of the video, and most of it wasn't just the narrator showing camcorder footage and rambling on about how mysterious the plane trails are. While it did stretch on for an awkward amount of time in the beginning, the video later contained lots of interesting visual/audio clips of various governments officials/"formal" activists on the subject matter.
But none of it matters...
Even if the government was pumping dangerous chems in the air, (I'm not saying they are or aren't, it wouldn't surprise me too much either way) what the fuck could we really do about it? If 9/11 was really was a government setup, (again, same as the contrails/chemtrails) they certainly won't be held accountable anytime soon. Take JFK for example; whatever happened,(disgruntled ex-marine or gov. assassination) our citizen view exploration proved to be useless.
We all bitch and moan and spread awareness/information, but nothing ever really changes from the plan laid down. We're powerless anyway you look at it.
But it's entirely feasible for a portion of Americas crooked and deeply rooted corrupt Government to have done these crimes against it's own nation. Our government has done fucked up shit to its own citizens for a long time; there are MK-Ultra documents that explain a generals interest in pumping aerosol-form LSD into a major American subway, just to see if it could be used as a weapon. They also have documents explaining the horrible experiments carried out on prisoners and mental institution patients for decades without a peep. It's just as bad as Nazi experiments, and the public only has access to a small amount of this kind of data...
If there really is an illuminati-esque-clique of wealthy assholes that are trying to enact global population control; subtly and ingeniously, we could only do as much as we could to prevent a natural disaster from happening. Spread information; debate with little to no practical use, develop some neurosis in order to deal with the impending sense of gloom this generation faces, and eventually take whatever force that directly threatens us head on.
The forecast is sure of one thing though...
There's a storm coming.
--------------------
Last night I was honored with the Nobel Prize in theoretical physics. This worldwide recognition has given me the opportunity to bring hope to a war-ravaged world. I vowed to myself I would work like a dog at this. But now, it's 10:30 in the morning and I'm just getting out of bed. I did get up earlier around 8:00am, but I just lied in bed for a while, and then...jerked off. I've got to stop masturbating, it makes me too lazy. Stop it Albert...stop it.
~Albert Einstein.
Edited by Sentient#6 (06/29/09 03:49 AM)
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Sentient#6]
#10590919 - 06/29/09 04:08 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Take JFK for example; whatever happened,(disgruntled ex-marine or gov. assassination) our citizen view exploration proved to be useless.
uh, they got the US government to convene a committee to look into the matter and concluded, contrary to the party line of the warren commission, that a conspiracy was most likely the cause of his death, with multiple shooters being likely
I'd say that was a signifigant effect, far from useless, considering how much was invested in the old explanation.
That was all brought about by people bitching
|
Sentient#6
Servant of the Gods
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 376
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10590926 - 06/29/09 04:12 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
But who was prosecuted and held under trial for this information?
Nothing changed...
--------------------
Last night I was honored with the Nobel Prize in theoretical physics. This worldwide recognition has given me the opportunity to bring hope to a war-ravaged world. I vowed to myself I would work like a dog at this. But now, it's 10:30 in the morning and I'm just getting out of bed. I did get up earlier around 8:00am, but I just lied in bed for a while, and then...jerked off. I've got to stop masturbating, it makes me too lazy. Stop it Albert...stop it.
~Albert Einstein.
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10591890 - 06/29/09 10:27 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
All 27 parts of the video come to about 4 hours of play time. The video does start out slow, but it did catch my interest after watching the first couple parts. There is information I wasn't aware of (via the admissions of weather casters), and there is some compelling video footage which has caused me to re-evaluate my position. Some of the footage over residential airspace is obviously not normal air traffic. I think you would have began with a better presentation by picking out the sections with these anomalies, and then inviting us to watch the whole thing after viewing them, rather than just providing a link to part 1, and asking us to watch a 4 hour video.
I'm not saying I believe the government is purposely spraying the population to produce illness, there could be other motives. However, it does seem something is up. My main concern would be the blanket effect, and the issue of the pilots. It seems it would be difficult to keep so many pilots in the dark. Mis-information could play a part, but pilots in general aren't dumb. If there is something going on beyond innocuous chafe exercises, I would expect some people would wise up, and there would be leaks from credible military pilots, airport personnel, etc. And there is the issue of how the blanket effect would touch State lawmakers. I mean, I'm not saying the Fed gives a flip about State reps, but the reps would care. If someone could address these points, it would be helpful in continuing the dialogue.
I don't trust the government. I consider the push towards economic and legislative globalization to be an act of treason, and at least the last 4 presidents are in on it. The government is no longer "for the people", this much I'm certain of. NWO is on the lips of all to many lawmakers, and they will push it through the best the can with or without the support of the people, unless and until there is a revolution.
The video spends some time on the chemtrail theory, and then changes course, delving into the 911 theory, then bring it back home with more chemtrail footage near the end. The time spent between these two theories is about 50/50. Works for me, but I would have stuck to the chemtrail theory as 911 is a touchy issue and would certainly turn off quite a few people who otherwise might take chemtrails seriously. I also feel that the bulk of information, minus the 911 stuff, could have been condensed into an hour. It is a bit slow, and the infotainment feel maybe isn't the best considering the subject matter.
But, I cannot debunk your documentary, and am again curious about what is happening in the sky. So, thanks for posting, and being stubborn about it.
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10592154 - 06/29/09 11:25 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
lol, WTF does 9/11 have to do with chemtrails? Sounds like the video is a cornucopia of nonsense. Just like the freaks who believe it, they cant even bring up chemtrails without crying about 9/11 (and vise versa)
So far the 'evidence' in this thread matches nearly all chemtrail threads 'evidence'.
- There are videos of trails that appear completely normal that some people swear arent normal.
- There are claims that trails must linger and dissipate at some known time, completely ignoring the counterclaim of evidence of different conditions at different altitudes.
- Vague insinuations that the government is out to get its people with poison and brainwashing
I think the real question is how any human being could take those points as evidence and come to the chemtrail conclusion.
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10593096 - 06/29/09 02:53 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Well, some of the trails don't appear normal. Some of the grids appear not to be made from criss crossing air traffic, but from planes which make multiple 90 degree turns. There is video of a plane, with a short contrail, flying through a persistent contrail, which strikes me as odd. There are other things, which do not constitute proof of conspiracy, In some examples, the activity could be innocuous, and in others, the proof could be faked. But it does create some curiosity.
Quote:
WTF does 9/11 have to do with chemtrails?
Both are conspiracy theories, which if true, would obviously be tied together as part of the same agenda. As I said, I remain critical, and hope my questions are addressed if this is a serious discussion. I am neither in belief, or dis-belief.
Do you trust the government, and the banks, and the large corporations enough to dismiss as freaks, those who think they would sacrifice life in order to further their agenda?
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
Cannashroom
Smoke two Joints
Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 1,757
Loc: Everywhere
Last seen: 1 hour, 15 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10593152 - 06/29/09 03:04 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Last Time I was tripping I saw this low flying plane leave a huge chemtrail right where I live. It lasted for hours and finally spread out to a haze, I was watching it walking around my neighborhood with some friends.
Today after work I walked outside and saw another low lying chemtrail, it came from far away and it came close to overhead. The wind blew it out of sight after about 20 minutes, but it still held its shape. It was below the cloud line, well below where contrails form. I saw another plane, much higher up, creating a contrail that was disappearing in 20 seconds, I was pretty amazed to see the comparison so easily.
--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.
This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.
Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.
Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."
Albert Einstein
|
Cannashroom
Smoke two Joints
Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 1,757
Loc: Everywhere
Last seen: 1 hour, 15 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Cannashroom]
#10593297 - 06/29/09 03:40 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Hey Johnm, I found what you were asking for:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/report.shtml
Here is a report, it includes the methods used to acquire data, all the data recorded etc.
--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.
This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.
Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.
Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."
Albert Einstein
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Cannashroom]
#10593326 - 06/29/09 03:46 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
His conclusion is essentially "some of these contrails are interesting".
That report does not deal with the claim that chemicals are being sprayed out of these aircraft. This is the claim that most of us have trouble believing.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10594057 - 06/29/09 06:24 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rahz said:
Do you trust the government, and the banks, and the large corporations enough to dismiss as freaks, those who think they would sacrifice life in order to further their agenda?
Trusting the govt., banks and corporations (large or small) is irrelevant. What does that have to do with my dismissal of conspiracy theorists as freaks? I dismiss them as freaks because everytime they show me a picture of a 'chemtrail' it looks like a normal contrail. Every time.
Your playing the same game they do, instead of giving evidence they appeal to a vague distrust of large organizations and entities they dont understand.
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10594519 - 06/29/09 08:11 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Your playing the same game they do, instead of giving evidence they appeal to a vague distrust of large organizations and entities they dont understand.
I gave specific examples from the video, and said they are abnormal. As far as a vague distrust, history is my witness. History in general, and modern history. Keeping an eye open may be better than having a vague trust in large organizations and entities we don't understand. Lawmakers in history warned about that abuse of power, and our foreign policy over the years hasn't exactly made us the "good guys".
Anyway, I disproved two of your bullets, which could be confirmed by watching the video, though at 4 hours I don't blame you. I was not suggesting the examples I gave are proof positive, only that they are noteworthy. I was referring to your third bullet in my question. And I'm not claiming anything, but I also don't want to assume anything. I like to have proof before I "believe" something. I don't swallow everything I find on the net, but I certainly don't think the media tells all and knows all either.
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,539
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10595341 - 06/29/09 10:36 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I appreciate that some people have felt my claim that ppl here are 'closed minded' is hypocritical in my position, or something.
But I consider it the same thing to say something IS or IS NOT true, that is closed minded in this case. This is a topic where we should consider the possibilities.
Well thats what having an open mind is..
its not about being gullible and accepting conspiracy theories
but entertaining the possibilities beyond your own assumptions and learned heuristics
--------------------
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10595472 - 06/29/09 11:11 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Anyway, I disproved two of your bullets
I think you are using new math. Chemtrail 'evidence' still contains those three points. I dont think they are sufficient or even valid, and by your own admition neither do you.
Abuse of power, real as it is, does is no way entail chemtrails. That is why it is ridiculed when abuse of power and maniacal governments are brought up as chemtrail evidence. The idea that the government is maniacal is a conclusion not evidence. People present this conclusion as though it is evidence and that is an immediate flag to us skeptics that the person is an idiot.  We will decide if the govt. is maniacal or not, thats our perogative - what we need from believers is evidence.
Quote:
I gave specific examples from the video, and said they are abnormal.
What, this : Some of the footage over residential airspace is obviously not normal air traffic.? How was it not normal? What part of the video is it so I can skip too it? Most importantly! - How does not normal air traffic entail a chemtrail?
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10595897 - 06/30/09 12:42 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Noteworthy said:
But I consider it the same thing to say something IS or IS NOT true, that is closed minded in this case. This is a topic where we should consider the possibilities.
I have considered the possibility. I'm still not convinced. Does that make me close-minded?
Quote:
Rahz said:
I gave specific examples from the video, and said they are abnormal. As far as a vague distrust, history is my witness. History in general, and modern history. Keeping an eye open may be better than having a vague trust in large organizations and entities we don't understand. Lawmakers in history warned about that abuse of power, and our foreign policy over the years hasn't exactly made us the "good guys".
Sure, but mistrust of the government doesn't provide evidence for chemtrails.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10596052 - 06/30/09 01:39 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Abuse of power, real as it is, does is no way entail chemtrails.
If chemtrails are real, it would be an abuse of power.
Quote:
¡There are videos of trails that appear completely normal that some people swear arent normal.
To which I replied: Some of the grids appear not to be made from criss crossing air traffic, but from planes which make multiple 90 degree turns.
Quote:
¡There are claims that trails must linger and dissipate at some known time, completely ignoring the counterclaim of evidence of different conditions at different altitudes.
To which I replied: There is video of a plane, with a short contrail, flying through a persistent contrail, which strikes me as odd.
These things are viewable in the video, despite your assertion that: "So far the 'evidence' in this thread matches nearly all chemtrail threads 'evidence'.", when you haven't even watched the evidence. Again, I'm not saying it's proof positive, just that it's was worth mentioning. I'm not going to watch the thing again to find a few clips.
Quote:
How does not normal air traffic entail a chemtrail?
Obviously, the video will not confirm the contents of the trails. The point is, if a plane looks like it's drawing a grid, with a persistent contrail, at what appears to be low altitude, why? And if a plane is flying through a persistent contrail, leaving a short contrail, why? I'm curious, but if you haven't watched the video, you will have a hard time discussing it.
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10596054 - 06/30/09 01:39 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sure, but mistrust of the government doesn't provide evidence for chemtrails.
Never said it did.
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10596095 - 06/30/09 02:06 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Abuse of power, real as it is, does is no way entail chemtrails.
If chemtrails are real, it would be an abuse of power.
Look for 'Affirming The Consequent' in the list of logical fallacies pinned above. To say that "If chemtrails then abuse of power" would be a valid statement that nearly everyone agrees with. You, and others, equate that too "If abuse of power then chemtrails". You are affirming the consequent, that is saying the consequent is true and implying that means the antecedent is true. This is what Johnm was complaining about above, just stating conclusions as facts.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10596189 - 06/30/09 03:07 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
Sure, but mistrust of the government doesn't provide evidence for chemtrails.
Never said it did.
Others in this thread have claimed exactly that, though.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10596311 - 06/30/09 04:39 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
Sure, but mistrust of the government doesn't provide evidence for chemtrails.
Never said it did.
Others in this thread have claimed exactly that, though.
But there's *drumroll* Historical precedent for the US engaging in weather warfare during the Vietnam war. It'd be like if someone accused of child rape, amitting they rape children, and then you find them working in a nursery with an erection, it doesn't necessarily imply they are raping children now, but most people can put two and two together, without saying "I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt. I can't prove anything wrong is going on without further evidence"
Government is not someone I give the benefit of the doubt to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Popeye
Quote:
Operation Popeye (Project Popeye/Motorpool/Intermediary-Compatriot) was a US military cloud seeding operation (running from March 20, 1967 until July 5, 1972) during the Vietnam war to extend the monsoon season over Laos, specifically areas of the Ho Chi Minh Trail. The operation seeded clouds with silver iodide, resulting in the targeted areas seeing an extension of the monsoon period an average of 30 to 45 days. As the continuous rainfall slowed down the truck traffic, it was considered relatively successful.[1] The 54th Weather Reconnaissance Squadron carried out the operation to "make mud, not war." [2]
--------------------
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10596412 - 06/30/09 05:47 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Even farmers do cloud seeding. The Chinese did it before the Olympics. It's nothing special.
This is still not an argument that the government is putting chemicals in jet exhaust. No amount of hypothesising about devious government plans can hide the fact that there's no convincing evidence. If chemtrails are real, then the evidence should stand on its own merits.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,539
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10596435 - 06/30/09 05:57 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Can I ask, zouden, do you think there would be any evidence if it was true?
--------------------
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Noteworthy]
#10596446 - 06/30/09 06:07 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Er, yes? Isn't the main concern that the government is spraying chemicals from jet exhaust? In which case, we should be able to detect those chemicals.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,539
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10596453 - 06/30/09 06:10 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
who would be doing that sort of research? dont you think that seems highly expensive? and requires that you get air samples synchronised somehow with the flight of aircrafts in question? usually in order to actually start an experiment, there needs to be the sort of evidence that you are demanding in order to convincingly promote the research in the first place.
--------------------
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Noteworthy]
#10596459 - 06/30/09 06:14 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Are you suggesting I lower my standards because... research is hard? Come on. It doesn't matter how difficult or expensive it is, unless I see convincing evidence I'm going to remain skeptical.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,539
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10596689 - 06/30/09 07:40 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
standards? i dont really know what you mean.
--------------------
|
Realized
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 223
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Noteworthy]
#10596994 - 06/30/09 09:14 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The people in the government have to breathe the air to so why would they poison something they also breathe?
--------------------
“The person lives most beautifully who does not reflect upon existence” - Friedrich Nietzsche
"Change my mind so much I can't even trust it. My mind changes me so much I can't even trust myself."
|
Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,331
Last seen: 23 hours, 57 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Realized]
#10597077 - 06/30/09 09:36 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Because they're really lizards, and what's toxic to us, is fine for them 
|
Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,539
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Realized]
#10597083 - 06/30/09 09:38 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
well there is your reason for not believing the government would poison all of its own atmosphere.
there are many other possibilities for the extended contails though. anything other than water, and people ought to know, right? or perhaps people do not deserve that information?
--------------------
|
Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,331
Last seen: 23 hours, 57 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Noteworthy]
#10597224 - 06/30/09 10:11 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Personally, I think the idea of chemtrails is threatening to give credit to, and that's why it meets such heavy resistance. If the government was malicious enough to drop harmful chemicals on us, there is pretty much nothing we could do about it. We'd be up shit creek without a paddle.
So when there is inconclusive evidence on either side of the argument, of course most are going to tend with the safer of the two. It's a hell of a lot easier to swallow.
And if the government is doing something behind our backs, and it isn't malicious, then they must have a good reason to keep it under wraps. In which case, there is no reason to undermine such reasons by seeking them out.
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10597298 - 06/30/09 10:26 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Noteworthy said:
standards? i dont really know what you mean.
Burden of proof. He who asserts something bears the burden of establishing it worthy of belief. The default position should be uncertainty, and the confusion over this is probably central to much of the debate.
Quote:
Qubit said:
Quote:
Quote:
Abuse of power, real as it is, does is no way entail chemtrails.
If chemtrails are real, it would be an abuse of power.
This is what Johnm was complaining about above, just stating conclusions as facts.
yep.
People say "that's not normal" or "these aren't contrails" or "the plains fly in a grid pattern" or whatever, but they don't provide any evidence or reason to believe their conclusions.
All conclusions, no facts or reasoning. Personally I doubt the referred to phenomena is at all unusual, but since they don't even attempt to establish that it is, rather simply declaring it to be, there is no need to even examine the matter. Just a bunch of people issuing decrees about the nature of the world while having no particular reason to do so.
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Cannashroom]
#10597334 - 06/30/09 10:34 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Cannashroom said:
Hey Johnm, I found what you were asking for:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/report.shtml
Here is a report, it includes the methods used to acquire data, all the data recorded etc.
Like zouden said, whatever the merits of their conclusions, the conclusions don't seem to support the existance of chemtrails.
They found most contrails last for a short period of time, and that some last longer, the later of which did not appear on flight explorer.
While I've not looked at the results to see if these conclusions are actually supported by their evidence, it doesn't much matter to me as the conclusions doesn't seem to suggest chemtrails are real.
Props for finding something that actually disclosed how it reached the conclusion, I just don't see how this is helpful for showing chemtrails to be real- like zouden said.
Quote:
Summary of Results
The goal of this research was to determine if there was a type of trail that was inconsistent with normal contrails, especially with regard to increased persistence. What was found is that highly persistent trails that last for many hours were seen above Houston, TX on a majority (60%) of observable days during the data collection period. However during this time period none of the 46 Flight Explorer confirmed contrails observed persisted for over 30 minutes and most contrails were under 30 seconds of persistence. Additionally it was discovered that the jets that were responsible for leaving highly persistent trails that last for hours did not ever appear on Flight Explorer and were documented for 8 separate instances, including one instance with two jets in formation. These unidentifiable jets were found to produce a contrail that was consistent with confirmed contrails during the periods when they weren't leaving highly persistent trails. Highly persistent trails are often seen in the form of isolated relatively short strips, as well as large areas of cirrus aviaticus clouds, but on rare occasions have been seen in totally unique grid and wheel formations.
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10597416 - 06/30/09 10:55 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
...so what i got from the conclusion was that contrails last for different amounts of time and they couldn't explain the ones that lasted longer ergo the ones that last longer contain some sort of evil chemicals and there is proof of a conspiracy.
is that about right?
--------------------
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Kickle]
#10598309 - 06/30/09 02:08 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said:
I'm almost to the point of watching it, just so I can present an argument for him.
YES, YES!!!
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,539
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: learningtofly]
#10598448 - 06/30/09 02:31 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
learningtofly said:
...so what i got from the conclusion was that contrails last for different amounts of time and they couldn't explain the ones that lasted longer ergo the ones that last longer contain some sort of evil chemicals and there is proof of a conspiracy.
is that about right?
If that were true, atmospheric conditions would have to be exactly the same at all times in all places.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10598467 - 06/30/09 02:35 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rahz said:
But, I cannot debunk your documentary, and am again curious about what is happening in the sky. So, thanks for posting, and being stubborn about it.
You're welcome. I knew that it couldn't be debunked and would possibly be the spark that ignites that desire to get to the bottom of this, at least for some. sorry if I had to be an asshole, but I think the end justifies the means in this situation.
as for the rest of you
here is a fellow that has been collecting lot of data....
http://www.carnicom.com/
if you go to the top of the page there is a "sampling and analysis"
look from there.
also this is the same site just in a different format, I think it might have a little more info too
http://www.carnicom.com/conright.htm
I have the "morgellons" skin problems so this is personal. through battling my illness I discovered all about this. maybe it will help someone out there.
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Kickle]
#10598500 - 06/30/09 02:38 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said:
Because they're really lizards, and what's toxic to us, is fine for them
SO FUCKING TRUE!
thanks for saving my thread guys...
may we all become the gods we are
that is the only way to "beat" this IMO
I think this might help too
Nu-Me FTW!!!
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10598525 - 06/30/09 02:43 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
Edited by ChiefGreenLeaf (06/30/09 02:49 PM)
|
 hidenseek
loafter
Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 4,173
Loc: Etoba-mi-coke
Last seen: 4 minutes, 41 seconds
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10598537 - 06/30/09 02:45 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
mayby its just pollution in the air. make the clouds weird--- that at least seems like a simple answer to me. maybe find some really old photos like black and white old and maybe they have been their all along or old paintings too
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10598600 - 06/30/09 02:56 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
Because they're really lizards, and what's toxic to us, is fine for them
SO FUCKING TRUE!
thanks for saving my thread guys...
may we all become the gods we are
that is the only way to "beat" this IMO
I think this might help too
Nu-Me FTW!!!
That website is hilarious. They're essentially selling tinfoil hats! The sad thing is, they're probably making a bit of money from it, looking at their prices.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10598969 - 06/30/09 04:11 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
That website is hilarious. They're essentially selling tinfoil hats! The sad thing is, they're probably making a bit of money from it, looking at their prices.
dude it's orgonite. read it up yo
Quote:
A Brief History of Orgone Research
In the 1930's and 1940's, Dr. Wilhelm Reich was able to detect and measure the existence of etheric energy (life energy, chi, etc.), which he called orgone, using a modified geiger counter.
Dr. Reich determined that stacking alternating layers of fiberglass (an organic substance) and steel wool (an inorganic substance) would actually attract and collect orgone/etheric energy of both the life-beneficial positive form (which Reich called "OR" or "POR") and harmful negative etheric energy ("deadly orgone" or "DOR").
He constructed large boxes called orgone accumulators or "oracs" using this simple layering principle and was able to successfully heal his patients of various ailments, including various forms of cancer, by having them sit inside the box for periods of time.
In 1986, scientists at the University of Marburg, Germany published the results of a blind study1 which showed that 30-minute orgone accumulator treatments caused consistent, positive psycho-physiological effects not seen with the all-fiberglass box used for a control, stating "the results received in our investigation furnish evidence for the assumption that the physical properties of the orgone accumulator and its psychophysiological efficacy on human organisms, postulated by Reich and his associates, factually exist."
Reich's work was continued in earnest in the 1960's by more open-minded Russian scientists such as Dr. Nikolai Kozyrev (1908-1983), who also scientifically proved that such unseen energies indeed exist all around us, and who's Reich-inspired work led to the unfortunate development of practical Soviet military defense applications which utilized principles of so-called "torsion fields" (e.g., etheric energy). Kozyrev's work, which indeed confirms both Reich's research and our empirical experiences with orgonite, was classified until the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991.
Following in their footsteps, thousands of Ph.D.-level researchers from both sides of the Iron Curtain spanning multiple generations have continued Kozyrev and Reich's pioneering work, slowly forcing mainstream Western science to finally, "officially recognize" the concept of a universal, unseen energy medium they call "dark matter," "vacuum flux" or "zero-point energy," depending on who you ask. It is commonly understood among orgonite enthusiasts that these are all essentially describing the same thing, which Reich called "orgone".
The Advancements of Orgonite
Reich built his research lab, dubbed Orgonon, in rural Maine, USA, as this location was at the time very isolated from sources of "deadly orgone," which his accumulators would collect indiscriminantly. Operating an orgone accumulator near sources of DOR (such as nuclear power plants, radio towers, etc.) has the potential of harming anyone receiving treatment inside it, so geographical location was and is an important factor for orgone accumulator operation.
In 2000, a couple named Don and Carol Croft discovered through some Internet research and empirical observation that mixing catalyzed organic fiberglass resin with inorganic metal shavings, poured into small molds such as paper cups and muffin pans, would produce a substance which would attract etheric energy similarly to Reich's accumulators.
Carol Croft, gifted with a keen sense of discrete energies, realized the significance of this finding and took it a step further by adding small quartz crystals to the mixture for their ability to efficiently collect, transmute and emit etheric energy. This addition to the resin/metal matrix creates a substance which functions as a self-driven, continuously-operating, highly efficient DOR→POR (negative to positive) energy transmutation factory.
When orgonite is within range of a source of DOR/negative energy, it will efficiently and continuously transform it into POR/positive energy as it is being transmitted, which essentially creates positive energy transmitters out of any and all emitters of harmful negative energy, which are totally defenseless against the effect.
The resin in orgonite shrinks during the curing process, permanently squeezing the quartz crystal inside which creates a well-known piezoelectric effect inside the crystal, meaning its end-points become polarized electrically. It is believed this is also what causes the orgonite to function so effectively as a positive energy generator.
Thus orgonite represents a very significant improvement over Reich's early work with orgone accumulators, since Reich's "oracs" attract deadly orgone energy as well as positive and do nothing to transmute it into a purely beneficial form, which orgonite does inherently and continuously.
Within a year of this development, Don began publishing reports of his and his wife's experiences in, among other things, the tactical deployment of small pieces of orgonite near any and all sources of DOR, or life-negative energy, such as cellphone towers, nuclear power plants, underground bases and natural Earth energy gridlines and vorticies. Don included in his reports the specific life-positive, cleansing, healing, confirming effects they would notice following such "gifting" activities, causing Don to strongly encourage his readers to replicate his efforts in their own communities.
http://www.orgonite.info/what-is-orgonite.html
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Icelander]
#10598988 - 06/30/09 04:13 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
...so what i got from the conclusion was that contrails last for different amounts of time and they couldn't explain the ones that lasted longer ergo the ones that last longer contain some sort of evil chemicals and there is proof of a conspiracy.
is that about right?
If that were true, atmospheric conditions would have to be exactly the same at all times in all places.
I don't believe in it, i'm just seeing if I understand what the video is claiming.
--------------------
|
Cannashroom
Smoke two Joints
Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 1,757
Loc: Everywhere
Last seen: 1 hour, 15 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: learningtofly]
#10599028 - 06/30/09 04:21 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Meh, I though chemtrails were bullshit until I started seeing them all over Vancouver. Low flying planes leaving plumes of exhaust for hours. Yesterday there were lots of the all over my city.
I am not saying it is a conspiracy to kill everyone or some shit. But I see them all the time now, so I know they are a real phenomenon, not paranoid delusions.
--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.
This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.
Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.
Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."
Albert Einstein
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
 Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10599092 - 06/30/09 04:32 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Hi O.C. the C.I.A. spends roughly 50% of it's budget on disinformation. That is the most effective means they have to control "information leakage"... Real information, to varying extents and degrees, does get out. The only means to make sure that target populations don't piece things together is to spread massive amounts of disinformation...............
Do you own a nice cheerleader outfit? (for the government, I mean...)
You STILL don't want to talk monetary policy with me?
You're hurting my feelings O.C.
Edited by Mr.Al (06/30/09 04:34 PM)
|
Realized
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 223
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Noteworthy]
#10599388 - 06/30/09 05:27 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said:
Because they're really lizards, and what's toxic to us, is fine for them
Oh yeah... I forgot about that.
--------------------
“The person lives most beautifully who does not reflect upon existence” - Friedrich Nietzsche
"Change my mind so much I can't even trust it. My mind changes me so much I can't even trust myself."
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Realized]
#10599768 - 06/30/09 06:29 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Realized said:
The people in the government have to breathe the air to so why would they poison something they also breathe?
Compartementalisation. Or "Need to know". Many people have done dangerous things before, unaware of the risks, you're familiar with the story of the radium painters who'd paint the luminous paint onto instruments during ww2?
There's always people willing to carry out dangerous orders for the "greater good."
One question no one has asked yet, which I'm disapointed is: "Suppose this is real, and yes, those chemtrails containing barium and aluminium oxide are toxic and bad news for you, me, and those that are bankrolling the massive, worldwide spraying ops. Won't that be hurting them as well?"
Yes it is. There is less sunlight reaching earth now, since 2000. A chemtrail spraying campaign using barium and aluminium oxide seeds clouds and reflects more radiation out to space.
Anyway. We should be using the common government term for it, chemtrails is a misnomer as water vapour is as equally valid of the title "chemical trail" as is a trail of aluminium oxide. Let's use "Geo engineering" instead, which reducing sunlight levels, modifying precipitation patterns, and altering atmospheric heat retention certainly is.
Here's a book congress paid for.
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309043867
"Policy Implications of
Greenhouse Warming"
http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/smoking_gun.html
Look, I could say that the evidence for this is as plain as the sky above your head, and you're fools to ignore a clear and present danger, but that'll just make those that still remain skeptical the the world governments could do anything wrong further entrenched in your opinions.
At the end of the day, it doesn't affect me. None of you guys have vested interests in the geoengineering business. None of you are pilots (if you are, pm me. I'd like to talk about gliders) so even if I do convince you, the most you can do is talk to others about it, who might be working in geo engineering.
So why am I even posting this, when I am aware it'll only polarise opinions, and be fruitless? I don't believe you guys can't just go out and find this information yourself, it didn't take me much searching to find government documents on this very subject. The only different is I am willing to go find the information, and share it. My only hope is it'll be of benefit to someone else, and to keep the fight going, until geo engineering becomes a mainstream issue, and people ask themselves why their tax money is going into a massive scale dangerous experiment with little tangible benefits.
Then again, the US has wide scale water fluoridation, despite it being common knowledge that it causes fluorosis, bone cancer, and is neurotoxic, even at 1ppm. Oh, and making teeth more brittle doesn't sound that good to me.
--------------------
|
Realized
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 223
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10599944 - 06/30/09 07:02 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Quote:
Realized said:
The people in the government have to breathe the air to so why would they poison something they also breathe?
Compartementalisation. Or "Need to know". Many people have done dangerous things before, unaware of the risks, you're familiar with the story of the radium painters who'd paint the luminous paint onto instruments during ww2?
There's always people willing to carry out dangerous orders for the "greater good."
One question no one has asked yet, which I'm disapointed is: "Suppose this is real, and yes, those chemtrails containing barium and aluminium oxide are toxic and bad news for you, me, and those that are bankrolling the massive, worldwide spraying ops. Won't that be hurting them as well?"
Yes it is. There is less sunlight reaching earth now, since 2000. A chemtrail spraying campaign using barium and aluminium oxide seeds clouds and reflects more radiation out to space.
Anyway. We should be using the common government term for it, chemtrails is a misnomer as water vapour is as equally valid of the title "chemical trail" as is a trail of aluminium oxide. Let's use "Geo engineering" instead, which reducing sunlight levels, modifying precipitation patterns, and altering atmospheric heat retention certainly is.
Here's a book congress paid for.
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309043867
"Policy Implications of
Greenhouse Warming"
http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/smoking_gun.html
Look, I could say that the evidence for this is as plain as the sky above your head, and you're fools to ignore a clear and present danger, but that'll just make those that still remain skeptical the the world governments could do anything wrong further entrenched in your opinions.
At the end of the day, it doesn't affect me. None of you guys have vested interests in the geoengineering business. None of you are pilots (if you are, pm me. I'd like to talk about gliders) so even if I do convince you, the most you can do is talk to others about it, who might be working in geo engineering.
So why am I even posting this, when I am aware it'll only polarise opinions, and be fruitless? I don't believe you guys can't just go out and find this information yourself, it didn't take me much searching to find government documents on this very subject. The only different is I am willing to go find the information, and share it. My only hope is it'll be of benefit to someone else, and to keep the fight going, until geo engineering becomes a mainstream issue, and people ask themselves why their tax money is going into a massive scale dangerous experiment with little tangible benefits.
Then again, the US has wide scale water fluoridation, despite it being common knowledge that it causes fluorosis, bone cancer, and is neurotoxic, even at 1ppm. Oh, and making teeth more brittle doesn't sound that good to me.
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Quote:
Realized said:
The people in the government have to breathe the air to so why would they poison something they also breathe?
Compartementalisation. Or "Need to know". Many people have done dangerous things before, unaware of the risks, you're familiar with the story of the radium painters who'd paint the luminous paint onto instruments during ww2?
There's always people willing to carry out dangerous orders for the "greater good."
One question no one has asked yet, which I'm disapointed is: "Suppose this is real, and yes, those chemtrails containing barium and aluminium oxide are toxic and bad news for you, me, and those that are bankrolling the massive, worldwide spraying ops. Won't that be hurting them as well?"
Yes it is. There is less sunlight reaching earth now, since 2000. A chemtrail spraying campaign using barium and aluminium oxide seeds clouds and reflects more radiation out to space.
Anyway. We should be using the common government term for it, chemtrails is a misnomer as water vapour is as equally valid of the title "chemical trail" as is a trail of aluminium oxide. Let's use "Geo engineering" instead, which reducing sunlight levels, modifying precipitation patterns, and altering atmospheric heat retention certainly is.
Here's a book congress paid for.
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309043867
"Policy Implications of
Greenhouse Warming"
http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/smoking_gun.html
Look, I could say that the evidence for this is as plain as the sky above your head, and you're fools to ignore a clear and present danger, but that'll just make those that still remain skeptical the the world governments could do anything wrong further entrenched in your opinions.
At the end of the day, it doesn't affect me. None of you guys have vested interests in the geoengineering business. None of you are pilots (if you are, pm me. I'd like to talk about gliders) so even if I do convince you, the most you can do is talk to others about it, who might be working in geo engineering.
So why am I even posting this, when I am aware it'll only polarise opinions, and be fruitless? I don't believe you guys can't just go out and find this information yourself, it didn't take me much searching to find government documents on this very subject. The only different is I am willing to go find the information, and share it. My only hope is it'll be of benefit to someone else, and to keep the fight going, until geo engineering becomes a mainstream issue, and people ask themselves why their tax money is going into a massive scale dangerous experiment with little tangible benefits.
Then again, the US has wide scale water fluoridation, despite it being common knowledge that it causes fluorosis, bone cancer, and is neurotoxic, even at 1ppm. Oh, and making teeth more brittle doesn't sound that good to me.
You are getting your sources from sites tha obviously back this chemtrail theory. If I search chemtrail on google all sortes of websites which back this theory come up and most of the sites site other sources which also back the theory.
I have come to think that all this conspiricy shit is just made up for some unknown reason to spread fear. Alex Jones has so many relations to hitler. Most of these theorys have so many gaps that they have to make up other shit to fill in the holes like shapeshifting lizards that control the government. That is the only way any of that could become possible and hat seems to be highly unlikley.
--------------------
“The person lives most beautifully who does not reflect upon existence” - Friedrich Nietzsche
"Change my mind so much I can't even trust it. My mind changes me so much I can't even trust myself."
|
Realized
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 223
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Realized]
#10599978 - 06/30/09 07:10 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I mean is it not reasonable to think that the world is just fucked up because we aren't that smart as a race yet? Could we really do a better job running the world than anyone else? people in the government aren't genius's that can do anything they want and brainwash us all they are just other dumb people who sometimes fuck stuff up. Do you actually think the 'truth' would be all over youtube and that dumb ass kids have figured everything out? Is it that hard to accept that maybe the government doesn't give a shit about us either way?
--------------------
“The person lives most beautifully who does not reflect upon existence” - Friedrich Nietzsche
"Change my mind so much I can't even trust it. My mind changes me so much I can't even trust myself."
|
Realized
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 223
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Realized]
#10600112 - 06/30/09 07:34 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I have seen many people here (not all ofcourse) that think that they are on some elevated state and that they know everything because they take shrooms and read conspiracy's. Is it not possible that you are the fool and that you have been deceived? Maybe there are people who have passed this stage that you are in. Seriously, just walk outside, remove all this fear mongering conspiracy shit from you heads and just take life as it is. The most credible scientist in the world have debunked fluoride, 9-11 and other things. It is a whole movement fueled by paranoia and lies.
I know that not everyone here likes Alex Jones here but seeing that he is a big person pushing these theory's I am going to use him as an example.... Try this... Clear your mind, think for yourself and watch his videos again. Consider what the guy in the video is saying.
Can you not see how full of shit he is. He is the one brainwashing people and spreading fear.... Think about this... The people pushing the NWO theory say the government uses fear to control. When were you ever afraid of the government before you heard of the NWO? This was a major realization for me.
Also notice how the video has three stars and so few views. The NWO is a very popular theory now. Almost anyone with a computer has heard of it and all videos debunking it a recived with harsh criticism.
"Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain
--------------------
“The person lives most beautifully who does not reflect upon existence” - Friedrich Nietzsche
"Change my mind so much I can't even trust it. My mind changes me so much I can't even trust myself."
Edited by Realized (06/30/09 07:43 PM)
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10600144 - 06/30/09 07:42 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
You're welcome. I knew that it couldn't be debunked and would possibly be the spark that ignites that desire to get to the bottom of this
Neither debunked, or proven. It could be proved that all the many clips, interviews, etc. happened, but the aerial parts I found curious all depend on assumptions in order to produce the same sureness as objective, verifiable, physical proof. There is a difference between a claim that toxic levels of a chemical were found in the air, and verifiable proof for you and I. In light of such a claim, I would expect some kind of data which would help verify the claim. If the producer isn't depending on the viewer to expect reasonable proof for the content which is verifiable, I want to question the intent of the producer. But questioning the producer doesn't harm the aerial footage, in and of itself. And the extent to which a party may be guilty would depend on A- whether and in what way the spray is injurious, and B- Whether it was due to negligent ignorance, willful negligence for a perceived overall gain for the population, or willful negligence at the expense of the people, either as a consequence of some other objective, or as the intended objective.
So if there is to be some rational discussion, it needs to stay focused. You know conspiracy theory isn't going to do well here. There is nothing wrong with expecting proof for a claim, and if I was interested in truth, I would want to keep the discussion related to a specific hypothesis. I watched your 4 hour video, which is the topic of this discussion. A lot of the footage was interesting, and a few clips were compelling.
For instance, detractors claim that contrails may be short or persistent depending on the altitude, and while temperature and pressure may have some effect, it seems difficult to explain what appears to be a plane flying through a persistent contrail, leaving a short, vanishing one. I could not offer this as proof, but it could be determined as some sort of change in the immediate environment which would cause the phenomena to occur naturally, or it could be determined to be an unexplainable anomaly, by someone more educated about meteorology than I.
Also compelling was the footage of the plane making a 90 degree turn into a "grid", with a contrail which was obviously thick and persistent. It all looks quite odd, but it's still not proof. Perhaps the footage was near an airport's runway, on a day when contrail formation was ideal, and a plane was adjusting course? I don't know. It is compelling, but I can be compelled all day long and still not believe a thing is true.
I do know that I don't trust governments. Governments don't trust themselves, why should I. 
But you're throwing more and more information into the topic, without quelling objections to the first evidence. You can't prove video with more video. In lieu of proof, all you can do is point out the flaws in the debunkers counter-theories. If you believe something, this is all you can do. If you know something for sure, you can provide proof, or at least explain why you are able to have such little doubt without relying on more video to make your case.
And then you want to bring Morgellons into it? Too much information, and some of it will hurt your credibility. The first link in one of your carnicom pages sites this:
Quote:
Many individuals that demonstrate visible physical symptoms have been diagnosed as being delusional even though the physical effect upon the body is evident and the samples can be subjected to detailed examination.
They are considered delusional because instead of dealing with their condition as the unknown condition that it is, they substitute a name which has no specific, identifiable cause, and attribute unproven information as the cause, thus restricting their means of inquiry into the truth.
And this:
Quote:
The existence of the condition is now acknowledged by the Centers for Disease Control, the National Institutes of Health and the Mayo Clinic.
I don't know about the latter, but I was able to find that the Center for Disease Control has agreed to investigate the proposed condition. This is not the same as "acknowledging it", especially as it's worded to indicate something more than "acknowledging the possibility". It's basically a lie. I should beware of people who want to win my belief, and sacrifice truth in the process.
I mean, in posting this thread, is your intention to create a belief, or find the truth? I would suggest that if you are already convinced, but have no proof, you have deluded yourself to some extent. This does not suppose that there is no truth to chemtrails, or that you don't have a skin condition, but I think you assume way too much.
If you wish for your belief, rather than some documentary, to be debunked, state a hypothesis that to the best of your knowledge describes the thought and reasoning behind the belief, and then we can give you replies which may help either prove or disprove the rationality of you holding that belief, which is a different thing than trying to prove or disprove evidence which we aren't professionally qualified (knowledgeable enough) to comment on, and/or has no references.
You yourself have been less than honest. If you "knew" the video couldn't be debunked, meaning you have an opinion based on absolute proof, or you have an unquestionable belief (which is bad, IMO), there would be no reason to start your post with "Please debunk", unless you were presenting your case under false pretense, and you have admitted as much. It is this type of manipulative discourse which will harm your case before it's even considered, and is found in much of the evidence people on the net are offering.
I consider it in my best interest to keep theories as theories, and hypotheses as hypotheses, without allowing myself to believe them. I think that if anyone is looking for truth, it is the right thing to do. Do you really want to get to the bottom of this? Why commit yourself to things you can't prove?
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
Edited by Rahz (06/30/09 09:07 PM)
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10601270 - 06/30/09 11:08 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
I think this might help too
Nu-Me FTW!!!
That website is hilarious. They're essentially selling tinfoil hats! The sad thing is, they're probably making a bit of money from it, looking at their prices.
Zero point energy brah, you've never heard of it? Dude, it even sounds vaguely scientific. I mean you can even find "zero point" mentioned in real textbooks! That means it works, brah. If you would unleash the magnificently powerful (yet utterly unobservable in even the slightest way) crystals you'd know yourself!
Besides, how could you doubt faces like these?
Now buy some zero point orgon and strap it to your kitties.
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Quote:
Realized said:
The people in the government have to breathe the air to so why would they poison something they also breathe?
Compartementalisation. Or "Need to know". Many people have done dangerous things before, unaware of the risks, you're familiar with the story of the radium painters who'd paint the luminous paint onto instruments during ww2?
There's always people willing to carry out dangerous orders for the "greater good."
One question no one has asked yet, which I'm disapointed is: "Suppose this is real, and yes, those chemtrails containing barium and aluminium oxide are toxic and bad news for you, me, and those that are bankrolling the massive, worldwide spraying ops. Won't that be hurting them as well?"
I like how the longer and more detailed responses are always to the least serious problems. They'll spend hours talking about "no really, it could be happeneing" but won't spend any time at all showing facts and analysis lending to the believe it is happening.
I noticed this with the ID threads too. The most trivial of misunderstandings would be responded to vigorously, but the serious lack of any probative evidence or testable consequence would be ignored completely.
It doesn't matter whether the government could or would do this. What matters is there's no reason to believe it is happening. Focusing your attention on the weakest objections, taking for granted it is happening and then explaining how its possible, will not help your case. It seems like your just trying to divert attention to surmountable problems, rather than explaining why you believe something on pure faith and testimonials.
|
Realized
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 223
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10601569 - 07/01/09 12:36 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
This world is just plain absurd. Plain fucking absurd.
--------------------
“The person lives most beautifully who does not reflect upon existence” - Friedrich Nietzsche
"Change my mind so much I can't even trust it. My mind changes me so much I can't even trust myself."
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Realized]
#10603832 - 07/01/09 01:14 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
to all of you let me say this.
some of you are right about the "alex jones" i think what he is saying is true, but he is fear mongering.
the nwo is working from both sides.
they want at least some of the population to figure it out. problem is, these people won't know what to do. they will freak the fuck out and protest, scream, whine. that gives the nwo police reason to go scoop them up
i think alex jones is a jesuit agent here to spread fear without empowering anyone. exactly what the nwo wants, an opposing militia of people to fight
monarchy vs. "the people"
capitalism vs. communism
america/west europe vs. islam
do you know the motto?
Ordo Ab Chao
Order out of chaos
if there is no enemy then what reason would we have to stockpile and develop weapons?
if they can rouse fear then people are easy to control. create disorder, people will demand order. their order. NWO.
but at the same time, we don't need to stick our heads in the sand and pretend everything is peachy.
we need to take back our planet from these monsters
and you have to start by taking back yourself
then your family, then community... let it ballon from there
but until you know how you fit into this grand play
you are powerless
i think mr. carnicom's website has a lot of info about the aerosol spraying "chemtrails". disregard the stuff about morgellons if you want. but it will all come full circle.
i give it a year and a half before it becomes blatently obvious to the introverted-reflective type that we are living in orwellian scenario.
i don't mean to scare anyone it's just that knowing in advance will be a lot better then being blind sided. all those people who never considered this? they will be the ones really hurting because insted of having a plan, it will just be reactionary behaviour
i guess what i'm getting at here is take care right now. don't live in denial. it is a fucked up world but we can make it better by making ourselves better. when we feel secure and good about ourselves we naturally radiate that to others. our intent will change this reality, just take it one step at a time....
but to have intent you have to KNOW what you want, what is effective, etc.
just my 2 cents....
namaste everybody
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
Realized
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 223
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10604565 - 07/01/09 03:09 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
to all of you let me say this.
some of you are right about the "alex jones" i think what he is saying is true, but he is fear mongering.
the nwo is working from both sides.
they want at least some of the population to figure it out. problem is, these people won't know what to do. they will freak the fuck out and protest, scream, whine. that gives the nwo police reason to go scoop them up
i think alex jones is a jesuit agent here to spread fear without empowering anyone. exactly what the nwo wants, an opposing militia of people to fight
monarchy vs. "the people"
capitalism vs. communism
america/west europe vs. islam
do you know the motto?
Ordo Ab Chao
Order out of chaos
if there is no enemy then what reason would we have to stockpile and develop weapons?
if they can rouse fear then people are easy to control. create disorder, people will demand order. their order. NWO.
but at the same time, we don't need to stick our heads in the sand and pretend everything is peachy.
we need to take back our planet from these monsters
and you have to start by taking back yourself
then your family, then community... let it ballon from there
but until you know how you fit into this grand play
you are powerless
i think mr. carnicom's website has a lot of info about the aerosol spraying "chemtrails". disregard the stuff about morgellons if you want. but it will all come full circle.
i give it a year and a half before it becomes blatently obvious to the introverted-reflective type that we are living in orwellian scenario.
i don't mean to scare anyone it's just that knowing in advance will be a lot better then being blind sided. all those people who never considered this? they will be the ones really hurting because insted of having a plan, it will just be reactionary behaviour
i guess what i'm getting at here is take care right now. don't live in denial. it is a fucked up world but we can make it better by making ourselves better. when we feel secure and good about ourselves we naturally radiate that to others. our intent will change this reality, just take it one step at a time....
but to have intent you have to KNOW what you want, what is effective, etc.
just my 2 cents....
namaste everybody
I just don't see why they would want to control and watch us all. What benifit would that be to them? Why would they even give a shit about us? They already get our money so why would they do anything else? It seems like they would benefit more if they did a good job running shit.
And what would be so bad about a New world order anyways? New world orders have happened before. It doesn't mean they want to kill us or control us all. I mean we can't just stay with everything how it is forever.
I don't think anything can be fully figured out so they best thing to do, is go on with life, start building the life you want and focus on your goals and hopes. If anything conflicts with that which is of the norm then you might need to take action or take a stand to confront the matter directly. There is a high chance that nothing extreme is going on and even if there was, the best way to recognize it would be to stay focused on yourself and your life. If anything conflicts with your pursuit of happiness that is out of the bounds of reason stand up but believing that the government is the only problem and waiting for a revolution to happen is extremely self destructive and stupid. My friends brothers only goal in life is to survive the NWO. After I realized how stupid most of the people that believed it were and how when I believed in it that I didn't know what the fuck I was talking about really helped me see it more clearly. No one knows the truth or what is really going on. I think the weirdest thing is that maybe it is not as weird as we think. Focusing our intentions on changing the world won't do shit. It takes action. We can't change the world anyways. All we can change is ourselves, our lives and how we view the world.
--------------------
“The person lives most beautifully who does not reflect upon existence” - Friedrich Nietzsche
"Change my mind so much I can't even trust it. My mind changes me so much I can't even trust myself."
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Realized]
#10604675 - 07/01/09 03:25 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Amen. I feel kinda sorry for people who live their lives in fear that "the NWO blew up the WTC to distract the sheeple from the chemtrails" etc. I mean, I feel sorry for people who live their lives in fear generally, but particularly when it's unjustified.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10605434 - 07/01/09 05:51 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Amen. I feel kinda sorry for people who live their lives in fear that "the NWO blew up the WTC to distract the sheeple from the chemtrails" etc. I mean, I feel sorry for people who live their lives in fear generally, but particularly when it's unjustified.
it's justified. let me put it this way....
aspartame and fluoride.
we know they are poison
aspartame is illegal in Japan for health reasons.
Europe stopped fluoridating their water a while ago.
despite knowing they are poison, we continue to allow and even encourage their consumption
these two things alone significantly contribute to disease and a drop in intelligence
you would think if our leaders really wanted to help then they would cease the bullshit and move on to something that is more effective
get rid of fluoride, replace chlorine with UV treatments and ozone
as for aspartame, just use stevia
it's as easy as that, so why haven't they done anything about it?
are they really that stupid?
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
WakeboardrB
Pepe Silvia
Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 13,265
Last seen: 4 hours, 27 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10605463 - 07/01/09 05:58 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Zouden is talking about living your life in fear and you go ahead and launch into another conspiracy to counter what he's saying?
It never ends, does it?
--------------------
Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10605981 - 07/01/09 07:38 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Amen. I feel kinda sorry for people who live their lives in fear that "the NWO blew up the WTC to distract the sheeple from the chemtrails" etc. I mean, I feel sorry for people who live their lives in fear generally, but particularly when it's unjustified.
"If I think it's unjustified, then it is, and that's that. I choose not to believe it. I choose not to know."
Who says fear's a bad thing anyway? Fear is a strong motivator.
This isin't specifically for this one post. You have this consistency in your world view that nothing is wrong, nothing is bad, and anyone that says otherwise is foolish. Namecalling is childish, and totally unconstructive.
But a hell of a lot easier than reading all those links and admitting that you may not be 100% right, 100% of the time!
--------------------
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: WakeboardrB]
#10606046 - 07/01/09 07:46 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
WakeboardrB said:
Zouden is talking about living your life in fear and you go ahead and launch into another conspiracy to counter what he's saying?
It never ends, does it?
His point is valid. The government is more than stupid, it's malicious. I know it's hard to believe that, but come on, seriously? Wars, mass sterilisation programs, Joseph Mengeler level experiments, police brutality and tyrannical administrations are not stupidity, are not imcompetance.
Ethyl Mercury is toxic,
Fluorine is toxic,
alumiumium is toxic,
barium is toxic,
aspartame and all the other wonderful artificial sweeteners are toxic (sodium saccarine is mildly toxic, but rarely used these days, with the exception of tonic water)
There's no fear, there's no tinfoil hattery. It's just chemistry. All the halogen series elements are highly reactive, and fluorine is the most electro-negative of all halogens (useful for really acidic solutions).
But don't take my word for it! Go look online, or in a library, or through first hand experimentation by firsthand experience if you really don't believe me when I say "Hey, this is toxic, and shouldn't be in or on the human/animal body."
--------------------
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10606221 - 07/01/09 08:22 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I see we've descended to the lightning round of unfounded paranoia.
Funny, asking why people are woried about water fluoridation and aspartame yields more bullshit with no clear answers- kinda like chemtrails.
The bitching about aspartame is particularly full of shit. I hear these guys bitch that it should be illegal and whatnot, and yet they are the ones bitching about the government's evil acts. If I want to drink aspartame that's my own buisness. If you don't want to then don't, but stop trying to exert your will on me through ridiculous prohibitions.
|
Realized
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 223
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10606912 - 07/01/09 10:17 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
Quote:
zouden said:
Amen. I feel kinda sorry for people who live their lives in fear that "the NWO blew up the WTC to distract the sheeple from the chemtrails" etc. I mean, I feel sorry for people who live their lives in fear generally, but particularly when it's unjustified.
it's justified. let me put it this way....
aspartame and fluoride.
we know they are poison
aspartame is illegal in Japan for health reasons.
Europe stopped fluoridating their water a while ago.
despite knowing they are poison, we continue to allow and even encourage their consumption
these two things alone significantly contribute to disease and a drop in intelligence
you would think if our leaders really wanted to help then they would cease the bullshit and move on to something that is more effective
get rid of fluoride, replace chlorine with UV treatments and ozone
as for aspartame, just use stevia
it's as easy as that, so why haven't they done anything about it?
are they really that stupid?
They havent done anything about it because it is not a concern. I have been drinking the water my whole life and have no problems. I mean do they have any actual evidence for what they claim fluoride causes? There is not nearly enough fluoride in the water to do any harm at all. The average IQ has been the same for awhile and if it was really making us dumber how do people graduate from the best schools? How do people become scientists and professors and all that? What makes people stupid is themselves, nothing else.
Also, almost everything is a posion if taken excessivly or at large amouts. Alchol is a posion, food is even a posion if taken to the excess.
--------------------
“The person lives most beautifully who does not reflect upon existence” - Friedrich Nietzsche
"Change my mind so much I can't even trust it. My mind changes me so much I can't even trust myself."
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10607595 - 07/02/09 12:44 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Also, almost everything is a posion if taken excessivly or at large amouts. Alchol is a posion, food is even a posion if taken to the excess.
I'm not going to say anything regarding fluoride/aspartame except quote this.
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Who says fear's a bad thing anyway? Fear is a strong motivator.
This isin't specifically for this one post. You have this consistency in your world view that nothing is wrong, nothing is bad, and anyone that says otherwise is foolish.
When have I said that nothing is wrong? I think there's plenty of things wrong with the world, but other people have a far more pessimistic view of the world than me, beyond what is required, imho. To answer your question about why is fear a bad thing, well, you can choose to live your life in fear if you like, but I generally prefer being happy.
Quote:
Namecalling is childish, and totally unconstructive.
Are you saying I've done that?
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10608659 - 07/02/09 07:51 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
johnm214 said:
I see we've descended to the lightning round of unfounded paranoia.
like someone else said, it's not parinoia it's chemistry.
oh and another poster was wondering how people can go to college and become successful if there brain is being poisoned. maybe it's because you really aren't learning? maybe you just regurgitate information from a book? maybe, just maybe the whole system was just implemented to keep you distracted?
i mean really, if you can't figure out that fluoride = neuro toxin, i just don't know what to say.
There is a great book called the Fuoride Deception.
I'll post a little video that outlines it. No it isn't four hours. It is maybe 30 minutes. Can you handle that?
I imagine you would only have to watch half way to get the idea though.
CODEX ALIMENTARIUS. google it
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
Edited by ChiefGreenLeaf (07/02/09 08:03 AM)
|
LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,754
Loc: Sugar Town
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10609085 - 07/02/09 10:00 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
I see we've descended to the lightning round of unfounded paranoia.
like someone else said, it's not parinoia it's chemistry.
oh and another poster was wondering how people can go to college and become successful if there brain is being poisoned. maybe it's because you really aren't learning? maybe you just regurgitate information from a book? maybe, just maybe the whole system was just implemented to keep you distracted?
i mean really, if you can't figure out that fluoride = neuro toxin, i just don't know what to say.
There is a great book called the Fuoride Deception.
I'll post a little video that outlines it. No it isn't four hours. It is maybe 30 minutes. Can you handle that?
I imagine you would only have to watch half way to get the idea though.
CODEX ALIMENTARIUS. google it
How could anyone think that fluoride is bad for you when the vast majority of dentists think it is good for you? Surely these highly trained professionals know what's best for your teeth and would never recommend any fluoride toothpastes or rinses if they could even possibly be harmful to your health?
Damn conspiracy theorists. Would Colgate Palmolive or Procter and Gamble put out a harmful product? What would be in that for them?
--------------------
Don't worry be happy.
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: LunarEclipse]
#10609110 - 07/02/09 10:06 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
idk man, that's what I'm saying. why would they do such a thing? they are either stupid or malevolent. topical fluoride on the teeth works (i think, although there are much better ways to prevent cavities), systemic fluoride that's a whole nother deal. it gets in your brain and causes nerve cells to die.
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10609118 - 07/02/09 10:08 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
johnm214 said:
I see we've descended to the lightning round of unfounded paranoia.
Funny, asking why people are woried about water fluoridation and aspartame yields more bullshit with no clear answers- kinda like chemtrails.
The bitching about aspartame is particularly full of shit. I hear these guys bitch that it should be illegal and whatnot, and yet they are the ones bitching about the government's evil acts. If I want to drink aspartame that's my own buisness. If you don't want to then don't, but stop trying to exert your will on me through ridiculous prohibitions.
I think chemicals like tetrafluoroethane*, methamphetamine, sodium fluoride and aspartame shouldn't be illegal. I might not like them, but I won't stop you from using it. It's your loss.
*I use TFE myself, it's far less likely to blow up in my face than using butane.
--------------------
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: LunarEclipse]
#10609166 - 07/02/09 10:16 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
How could anyone think that fluoride is bad for you when the vast majority of dentists think it is good for you? Surely these highly trained professionals know what's best for your teeth and would never recommend any fluoride toothpastes or rinses if they could even possibly be harmful to your health?
Damn conspiracy theorists. Would Colgate Palmolive or Procter and Gamble put out a harmful product? What would be in that for them?
9 out of 10 doctors reccomend it! The other 10% are crazy conspiracy theroist lucky strike smokers.
--------------------
|
LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,754
Loc: Sugar Town
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10609193 - 07/02/09 10:21 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
idk man, that's what I'm saying. why would they do such a thing? they are either stupid or malevolent. topical fluoride on the teeth works (i think, although there are much better ways to prevent cavities), systemic fluoride that's a whole nother deal. it gets in your brain and causes nerve cells to die.
Weel i use ACT every nite and ain't dome no harum yet far as I can teel.
Hay but it's interesting I been watching all these passenger planes over the past few months flying back and forth. Sometimes they have real short lasting contrails whenb they are way up there (mabye those just look short cause thre so far away?) but when they start flying back and forth at lower altitudes the contrails really last. Up close you can see them and I think they are water vapor cause they turn into clouts and everyone knows water vapor is what clouds are made of.
But what is wierd is that in the past week there have been a lot fewere passenger plains just a few up real high with those short faraway contrails. I'm thinking less people flying in this bad economy has to be a logicle explenation.
--------------------
Don't worry be happy.
|
Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,331
Last seen: 23 hours, 57 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10609344 - 07/02/09 10:47 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
My mother is in the dental hygiene field, and I have been exposed to fluoride since I was very young. What negative effects would you expect me to be experiencing from such a poison? Cause to put it to you bluntly, my functioning is just fine.
Quote:
oh and another poster was wondering how people can go to college and become successful if there brain is being poisoned. maybe it's because you really aren't learning? maybe you just regurgitate information from a book? maybe, just maybe the whole system was just implemented to keep you distracted?
I'd love to see you simply regurgitate from a book, and pass some of my classes 
|
LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,754
Loc: Sugar Town
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Kickle]
#10609422 - 07/02/09 11:01 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said:
My mother is in the dental hygiene field, and I have been exposed to fluoride since I was very young. What negative effects would you expect me to be experiencing from such a poison? Cause to put it to you bluntly, my functioning is just fine.
Quote:
oh and another poster was wondering how people can go to college and become successful if there brain is being poisoned. maybe it's because you really aren't learning? maybe you just regurgitate information from a book? maybe, just maybe the whole system was just implemented to keep you distracted?
I'd love to see you simply regurgitate from a book, and pass some of my classes
Make your mother proud, become a dentist! That way you can help people of all ages prevent cavities with fluoride.
--------------------
Don't worry be happy.
|
Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,331
Last seen: 23 hours, 57 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: LunarEclipse]
#10609476 - 07/02/09 11:13 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I'm cavity free to this day.
But I don't have the teeth fetish that she does, my pursuits are elsewhere.
|
Realized
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 223
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10610082 - 07/02/09 01:06 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
I see we've descended to the lightning round of unfounded paranoia.
like someone else said, it's not parinoia it's chemistry.
oh and another poster was wondering how people can go to college and become successful if there brain is being poisoned. maybe it's because you really aren't learning? maybe you just regurgitate information from a book? maybe, just maybe the whole system was just implemented to keep you distracted?
i mean really, if you can't figure out that fluoride = neuro toxin, i just don't know what to say.
There is a great book called the Fuoride Deception.
I'll post a little video that outlines it. No it isn't four hours. It is maybe 30 minutes. Can you handle that?
I imagine you would only have to watch half way to get the idea though.
CODEX ALIMENTARIUS. google it
Telling people to google something just doesn't work man. There is so much ridicules stuff on the internet so of course all kinds of bullshit links will come up. Its like the people who believe in 2012 who tell people to 'google it'. All sorts of doomsday prophecy's and shit come up and hardly any facts. Its not chemestry its lies and bullshit.
Half of you people belong on above top secret or something.
--------------------
“The person lives most beautifully who does not reflect upon existence” - Friedrich Nietzsche
"Change my mind so much I can't even trust it. My mind changes me so much I can't even trust myself."
|
LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,754
Loc: Sugar Town
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Realized]
#10610183 - 07/02/09 01:28 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Realized said:
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
I see we've descended to the lightning round of unfounded paranoia.
like someone else said, it's not parinoia it's chemistry.
oh and another poster was wondering how people can go to college and become successful if there brain is being poisoned. maybe it's because you really aren't learning? maybe you just regurgitate information from a book? maybe, just maybe the whole system was just implemented to keep you distracted?
i mean really, if you can't figure out that fluoride = neuro toxin, i just don't know what to say.
There is a great book called the Fuoride Deception.
I'll post a little video that outlines it. No it isn't four hours. It is maybe 30 minutes. Can you handle that?
I imagine you would only have to watch half way to get the idea though.
CODEX ALIMENTARIUS. google it
Telling people to google something just doesn't work man. There is so much ridicules stuff on the internet so of course all kinds of bullshit links will come up. Its like the people who believe in 2012 who tell people to 'google it'. All sorts of doomsday prophecy's and shit come up and hardly any facts. Its not chemestry its lies and bullshit.
Half of you people belong on above top secret or something.
Yea man that shit doesn't work. Its ridicules its not chemestry its lies and bullshit buncha wacko jacko sumsbiches talkin all kinda smack just pisses me off. Google this ya doomsday sumbich.
--------------------
Don't worry be happy.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10610537 - 07/02/09 02:42 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
I see we've descended to the lightning round of unfounded paranoia.
like someone else said, it's not parinoia it's chemistry.
oh and another poster was wondering how people can go to college and become successful if there brain is being poisoned. maybe it's because you really aren't learning? maybe you just regurgitate information from a book? maybe, just maybe the whole system was just implemented to keep you distracted?
i mean really, if you can't figure out that fluoride = neuro toxin, i just don't know what to say.
If you can't figure out that toxicity depends on the dose, I just don't know what to say.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,361
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10610573 - 07/02/09 02:50 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
If you can't figure out that toxicity depends on the dose, I just don't know what to say.
As homeopatheticists everywhere know - less of a substance = more efficacious; therefore no substance = overdose.
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10610719 - 07/02/09 03:21 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The public at large is educated by the media and government schools, and corporations don't generally feel obligated to keep people safe, unless not doing so would result in a financial loss. In the case of fluoride, they have the ADA and the FDA on their side, so that is all there is for them to consider.
I use fluoride toothpaste. Seems like a pretty good deal... don't swallow. But I try to keep my fluoridated drinking water to a minimum. Why? It contains, on average, 50% more fluoride than the average spring water. I also consider the fact that Europe has reversed the trend of fluoridating drinking water, after beginning the trend around the same time America did, as a result of a few large companies promoting the health benefits.
And I have to ask myself, why would I need extra fluoride in my water? Out of all the fluoride I consume, and enters into my blood stream, how much ends up in my saliva? And how much in my saliva ends up in my teeth? Compare that to the amount of extra fluoride my body is disposing of and is soaking up. I would prefer to stick with the natural levels. If a person gently brushes their teeth 2-3 times a day, and flossed often, there's a pretty good chance those teeth will last longer than the person. We get fluoride naturally, and then brush it in our mouth in high concentration several times a day. How much is enough? Why has Europe quit fluoridating? What are the long term effects of above average fluoride intake on the skeletal system? It's something a short term study, the kind used to verify the safety of fluoride, couldn't have bore out.
I'm not suggesting that fluoridated drinking water is dangerous... only that it might be over the long run. And what's the alternative? To not drink fluoridated water. There's really not much negative to that, which is why it makes sense to drink the un-fluoridated stuff. Besides that, tap water tastes like chlorine. I don't want to drink that shit anyway.
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10610843 - 07/02/09 03:44 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The evidence suggests that fluoridated drinking water is more effective than brushing with fluoride toothpaste, especially for children, which is the group most at risk of cavities. Arguably, toothpaste is more dangerous than fluoridated water, because it's so much more concentrated (about 2000 times).
Quote:
How much is enough?
Around 1mg per day. Yes, there are answers to questions like this, because they have been studied extensively.
Quote:
Why has Europe quit fluoridating?
At a guess, it's because many people don't understand it and think it's poison, etc.
Anyway, one thing I don't understand is what motivation the ADA etc would have if fluoridation wasn't effective? I mean, do people really think that Big Fluoride is giving them kickbacks or something? That seems pretty hard to believe. No one makes money from fluoridating water, unless you count the money saved on dentists' bills.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10611157 - 07/02/09 04:40 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I'm not suggesting fluoride isn't effective, only that I question how much is needed and what possible side effects there may be. It's easy to assume the American science and legislation is correct, and the other guys are incorrect because they are less educated and paranoid, but I don't care to do it.
Can you provide sources for the 1mg figure?
I'm not saying you're wrong offhand, but I would be interested to see the way in which they came to their conclusions.
Anyway, I'd say the average child isn't real keen on brushing 2-3 times a day, and I would guess that the average parent isn't as concerned as they should be, and aren't teaching the kids to floss after meals and snacks, and aren't teaching the kids to eat fruit and vegetables and put the gummy bears down. But when it comes time to say how many times a day we brush, little Johnny isn't going to say "as little as I can get away with".
Now, all that is a guess, but in light of it, making sure fluoride is in most every liquid they have access to, probably would be better for teeth than "brushing alone".
Another guess, if little kids brushed their teeth 2-3 times a day, flossed after meals and snacks, and weren't served a sugary desert with every meal, I'd guess they may never experience a cavity, even if they were only drinking distilled water.
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10611337 - 07/02/09 05:09 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
Why has Europe quit fluoridating?
At a guess, it's because many people don't understand it and think it's poison, etc.
Yeah, lots of us Europeans think it's a poison. That, and the Germans put it into the water in concentration camps. It worked as a sedative, made breaking out less likely.
http://www.greaterthings.com/Lexicon/F/Fluoride.htm
Quote:
Do you have diabetes and/or kidney disease? There are reportedly more than 11 million Americans with diabetes. If it is true that diabetics drink more liquids than other people, then according to the Physicians Desk Reference these 11 million people are at much higher risk drinking fluoridated water because they will receive a much deadlier dose because of their need for higher than normal water consumption. Kidney disease, by definition, lowers the efficiency of the kidneys, which of course is the primary means in which fluoride (or any other toxic chemical) is eliminated from the body. Does it not make sense that these people shouldn't drink fluoridated water at all? Cases are on record (Annapolis, Maryland, 1979) where ill kidney patients on dialysis machines died because they ingested relatively small amounts of SODIUM FLUORIDE from unwittingly drinking the 'fluoridated' city water supply? Will adequate warnings be given to people with weak kidneys, or will the real cause of such deaths be 'covered up' in the name of 'domestic tranquility'?
Concerning the 'practice' of putting sodium fluoride into drinking water, where did this insanity begin and WHO tried it first? From personal research, the very first occurrence of purposefully putting sodium fluoride into drinking water was in the German ghettos and in Nazi Germany's infamous prison camps. The Gestapo you see had little concern about sodium fluoride's 'supposed' effect on children's teeth; instead, their reason for mass-medicating water with sodium fluoride was to STERILIZE HUMANS and force the people in their concentration camps into calm, bovine, submission. (See for reference: "The Crime and Punishment of I.G. Farben" written by Joseph Borkin.) Kind of shocking isn't it folks!! Ah, but it gets even better.
The following letter was received by the Lee Foundation for Nutritional Research, Milwaukee Wisconsin, on 2 October 1954, from a research chemist by the name of Charles Perkins. He writes:
"I have your letter of September 29 asking for further documentation regarding a statement made in my book, "The Truth about Water Fluoridation", to the effect that the idea of water fluoridation was brought to England from Russia by the Russian Communist Kreminoff. In the 1930's Hitler and the German Nazis envisioned a world to be dominated and controlled by a Nazi philosophy of pan-Germanism. The German chemists worked out a very ingenious and far-reaching plan of mass-control which was submitted to and adopted by the German General Staff. This plan was to control the population in any given area through mass medication of drinking water supplies. By this method they could control the population in whole areas, reduce population by water medication that would produce sterility in women, and so on. In this scheme of mass-control, sodium fluoride occupied a prominent place.
"Repeated doses of infinitesimal amounts of fluoride will in time reduce an individual's power to resist domination, by slowly poisoning and narcotizing a certain area of the brain, thus making him submissive to the will of those who wish to govern him. [A convenient and cost-effective light lobotomy? --- Ott].
"The real reason behind water fluoridation is not to benefit children's teeth. If this were the real reason there are many ways in which it could be done that are much easier, cheaper, and far more effective. The real purpose behind water fluoridation is to reduce the resistance of the masses to domination and control and loss of liberty."
"When the Nazis under Hitler decided to go to Poland, both the German General Staff and the Russian General Staff exchanged scientific and military ideas, plans, and personnel, and the scheme of mass control through water medication was seized upon by the Russian Communists because it fitted ideally into their plans to communize the world."
You see, being the survivors of genocidal maniacs that sought to dominate the world via the philosophy of the "master Race" and believed in drugging the water scared a lot of Europeans off of having fluoridated water. We're happier having the choice to have it or not, as it's in some toothpastes and dentifrices.
And really, it should be peoples choice. Forcing your choices, even if you think it's super benelovent (vegeitarianism, your religion/non religion, watching the game, listening to this music, playing this, doing that, drugs in your water) on other's is an infringment on their freedom and liberty.
But, if you think a country should force drugging on it's people, many countries today fluoridate their water. I hear China's been doing it recently. It should be your choice to live in a country that choose what you should and should not have, or a country where you are expected to make your own decisions in life.
--------------------
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10612192 - 07/02/09 08:23 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Anyway, one thing I don't understand is what motivation the ADA etc would have if fluoridation wasn't effective? I mean, do people really think that Big Fluoride is giving them kickbacks or something? That seems pretty hard to believe. No one makes money from fluoridating water, unless you count the money saved on dentists' bills.
you obviously didn't watch the clip. the aluminum and nuclear industries save millions by dumping it in the water instead of disposing of it safely.
and yeah natural forms of fluoride are ok
calcium fluoride good
sodium fluoride bad
like i said it's chemistry
some of you guys think this is just a bunch of crazies that thought this up
http://www.fluoridealert.org/fluoridation.htm
please....
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10612424 - 07/02/09 09:12 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
And really, it should be peoples choice. Forcing your choices, even if you think it's super benelovent (vegeitarianism, your religion/non religion, watching the game, listening to this music, playing this, doing that, drugs in your water) on other's is an infringment on their freedom and liberty.
yes, this I can agree with this.
I've seen no evidence fluoride is harmful in the manner routinely used in water, but it should be people's choice. Since I see no clear neccesity, I think water shouldn't be fluoridated, but that doesn't mean I buy into the nonsense regarding it.
I also agree with you that aspartame should not be banned. It shoudl be people's choice, just as methamphetamine, marijuana, prozac, laxatives, and tattoos should be.
I don't think it is harmful, personally, but I agree it should be included on all packages so people can make their own choices (and for thse who need to avoid it for medical reasons)
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
I see we've descended to the lightning round of unfounded paranoia.
like someone else said, it's not parinoia it's chemistry.
oh and another poster was wondering how people can go to college and become successful if there brain is being poisoned. maybe it's because you really aren't learning? maybe you just regurgitate information from a book? maybe, just maybe the whole system was just implemented to keep you distracted?
i mean really, if you can't figure out that fluoride = neuro toxin, i just don't know what to say.
If you can't figure out that toxicity depends on the dose, I just don't know what to say.
yeah, I mean water is a neurotoxin as well, I'm sure. As long as we're going to be making meaningless qualitative statements, we can through salt, earth, and concrete in there as well.
Now I'm scared.
And chief, I'm studying chemistry. As another poster said, if you'd like to take my tests go for it. The fact that you express knowledge about the content of courses your presumably not taking is a bit strange. You memorize in some of those survey courses in the liberal arts. In chemistry, you'd sink if you tried that. (except biochemistry for some parts of the class where it is legitimately exactly what you describe)
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10613376 - 07/03/09 12:40 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
Why has Europe quit fluoridating?
At a guess, it's because many people don't understand it and think it's poison, etc.
Yeah, lots of us Europeans think it's a poison. That, and the Germans put it into the water in concentration camps. It worked as a sedative, made breaking out less likely.
At what concentration? Saying "the Nazis used it" without specifying a concentration is misleading.
Quote:
Rahz said:
I'm not suggesting fluoride isn't effective, only that I question how much is needed and what possible side effects there may be. It's easy to assume the American science and legislation is correct, and the other guys are incorrect because they are less educated and paranoid, but I don't care to do it.
Can you provide sources for the 1mg figure?
It was from memory, but Wikipedia says: "A rough estimate is that an adult in a temperate climate consumes 0.6 mg/day of fluoride without fluoridation, and 2 mg/day with fluoridation."
The concentration of fluoride in water (1ppm) was chosen because it protects against cavities while minimizing fluorosis (teeth discolouration), which occurs if you take more than 10mg/day. At 1ppm, you have to drink 10 litres of water to reach that limit, or swallow a teaspoon of toothpaste.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10614967 - 07/03/09 08:57 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I'll post it again in case you missed it
http://www.fluoridealert.org/fluoridation.htm
and I agree with you all in that nothing should be legal or illegal. it should be an informed decision. INFORMED... keyword. not this flashy lights, ohhh ahhh, aspartame is great it has no calories! I read that calories = fat so aspartame = good! same goes for fluoride.
I told my mom to stop the aspartame, she lost 8 pounds. not because of calories, but because ur not putting poison in ur body! when you don't pollute ur body it works more efficiently, amazing!
all I'm saying is that if people were honestly told what these substances do and not lied to by government/industry/other fucktards who think they know what's up, then they would say "ohhh.... no thanks"
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10615040 - 07/03/09 09:08 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
from the above link....
Quote:
Where does the fluoride added to water come from?
The main fluoride chemical added to water (hydrofluorosilicic acid) is an industrial by-product from the phosphate fertilizer industry. Unlike the fluoride used in toothpaste, hydrofluorosilicic acid is not pharmaceutical-grade quality. It is an unpurified, industrial-grade, corrosive acid which has been linked, in several recent studies, to increased levels of lead in children’s blood.
What are potential risks from consuming fluoridated water?
Recent studies in the peer-reviewed medical literature indicate that fluoridated water can have detrimental side effects. Health risks associated with low-to-moderate doses of fluoride include: dental fluorosis; bone fracture; bone cancer; joint pain; skin rash, reduced thyroid activity; and IQ deficits.
Is fluoridated water safe for babies?
NO. According to the American Dental Association (ADA), children under 1 year of age should not receive infant formula made with fluoridated water. Babies exposed to fluoridated water are at high risk of developing dental fluorosis - a tooth defect caused by fluoride-induced cell damage within the teeth. Other harm is also likely. According, for example, to the US National Research Council, “it is apparent that fluorides can interfere with the functions of the brain.” The danger that fluoride poses to the brain is likely greatest during fetal and infant development, as during this time the barrier which protects the child’s brain from environmental toxins is not yet fully formed. Thus, chemicals that find their way into a baby’s bloodstream can penetrate into the brain.
According to the Greater Boston Physicians for Social Responsibility: “fluoride exposure, at levels that are experienced by a significant proportion of the population whose drinking water is fluoridated, may have adverse impacts on the developing brain. Though no final conclusions may be reached from available data, the findings are provocative and of significant public health concern."
Is fluoridated water safe for people with kidney disease?
NO. Recent research has found that fluoridated water can contribute to the development of painful bone disorders in people with advanced kidney disease.
Is fluoridated water necessary for healthy teeth?
NO. Most recent, large-scale studies have found that fluoridated water provides only a minor benefit to teeth, or no demonstrable benefit at all. According to a recent Canadian government review: "The magnitude of fluoridation's effect is not large in absolute terms, is often not statistically significant and may not be of clinical significance."
Moreover, according to the National Academy of Sciences, fluoride is not an essential nutrient. This means that no human disease - including tooth decay - will result from a "deficiency" of fluoride. Thus, unlike real nutrients like calcium and magnesium, the human body does not need fluoride for any physiological process.
all the sources are found on the website.
so when are you guys going to admit it is poison?
this is the kind of thinking that lets people take advantage of us
just go explore the website. like my chemtrail documentary I challenge you to debunk it
(takes off glove and slaps you in the face)
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10615058 - 07/03/09 09:11 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Yea, thx for that link. I found this on that site which is cool -> http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/fluoride.html
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10615114 - 07/03/09 09:21 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
OMG! You have to bring out quackwatch!
talk about some propaganda. I've visited that site before (looking at other things though) but man I figuered that they would at least know about fluoride. jeez.
honestly, I think that is propaganda here I can get some too
http://www.ada.org/public/topics/fluoride/index.asp
sorry to tell you but this dude is full of shit
I will come back later and tear his article to pieces, I've got to go to work now.
I'll leave you with this....
Quote:
The Absurdities of Water Fluoridation
by Paul Connett, PhD
Water fluoridation is a peculiarly American phenomenon. It started at a time when Asbestos lined our pipes, lead was added to gasoline, PCBs filled our transformers and DDT was deemed so "safe and effective" that officials felt no qualms spraying kids in school classrooms and seated at picnic tables. One by one all these chemicals have been banned, but fluoridation remains untouched.
For over 50 years US government officials have confidently and enthusiastically claimed that fluoridation is "safe and effective". However, they are seldom prepared to defend the practice in open public debate. Actually, there are so many arguments against fluoridation that it can get overwhelming.
To simplify things it helps to separate the ethical from the scientific arguments.
For those for whom ethical concerns are paramount, the issue of fluoridation is very simple to resolve. It is simply not ethical; we simply shouldn't be forcing medication on people without their "informed consent". The bad news is that ethical arguments are not very influential in Washington, DC unless politicians are very conscious of millions of people watching them. The good news is that the ethical arguments are buttressed by solid common sense arguments and scientific studies which convincingly show that fluoridation is neither "safe and effective" nor necessary. I have summarized the arguments in several categories:
Fluoridation is UNETHICAL because:
1) It violates the individual's right to informed consent to medication.
2) The municipality cannot control the dose of the patient.
3) The municipality cannot track each individual's response.
4) It ignores the fact that some people are more vulnerable to fluoride's toxic effects than others. Some people will suffer while others may benefit.
5) It violates the Nuremberg code for human experimentation.
As stated by the recent recipient of the Nobel Prize for Medicine (2000), Dr. Arvid Carlsson:
"I am quite convinced that water fluoridation, in a not-too-distant future, will be consigned to medical history...Water fluoridation goes against leading principles of pharmacotherapy, which is progressing from a stereotyped medication - of the type 1 tablet 3 times a day - to a much more individualized therapy as regards both dosage and selection of drugs. The addition of drugs to the drinking water means exactly the opposite of an individualized therapy."
As stated by Dr. Peter Mansfield, a physician from the UK and advisory board member of the recent government review of fluoridation (McDonagh et al 2000):
"No physician in his right senses would prescribe for a person he has never met, whose medical history he does not know, a substance which is intended to create bodily change, with the advice: 'Take as much as you like, but you will take it for the rest of your life because some children suffer from tooth decay. ' It is a preposterous notion."
Fluoridation is UNNECESSARY because:
1) Children can have perfectly good teeth without being exposed to fluoride.
2) The promoters (CDC, 1999, 2001) admit that the benefits are topical not systemic, so fluoridated toothpaste, which is universally available, is a more rational approach to delivering fluoride to the target organ (teeth) while minimizing exposure to the rest of the body.
3) The vast majority of western Europe has rejected water fluoridation, but has been equally successful as the US, if not more so, in tackling tooth decay.
4) If fluoride was necessary for strong teeth one would expect to find it in breast milk, but the level there is 0.01 ppm , which is 100 times LESS than in fluoridated tap water (IOM, 1997).
5) Children in non-fluoridated communities are already getting the so-called "optimal" doses from other sources (Heller et al, 1997). In fact, many are already being over-exposed to fluoride.
Fluoridation is INEFFECTIVE because:
1) Major dental researchers concede that fluoride's benefits are topical not systemic (Fejerskov 1981; Carlos 1983; CDC 1999, 2001; Limeback 1999; Locker 1999; Featherstone 2000).
2) Major dental researchers also concede that fluoride is ineffective at preventing pit and fissure tooth decay, which is 85% of the tooth decay experienced by children (JADA 1984; Gray 1987; White 1993; Pinkham 1999).
3) Several studies indicate that dental decay is coming down just as fast, if not faster, in non-fluoridated industrialized countries as fluoridated ones (Diesendorf, 1986; Colquhoun, 1994; World Health Organization, Online).
4) The largest survey conducted in the US showed only a minute difference in tooth decay between children who had lived all their lives in fluoridated compared to non-fluoridated communities. The difference was not clinically significant nor shown to be statistically significant (Brunelle & Carlos, 1990).
5) The worst tooth decay in the United States occurs in the poor neighborhoods of our largest cities, the vast majority of which have been fluoridated for decades.
6) When fluoridation has been halted in communities in Finland, former East Germany, Cuba and Canada, tooth decay did not go up but continued to go down (Maupome et al, 2001; Kunzel and Fischer, 1997, 2000; Kunzel et al, 2000 and Seppa et al, 2000).
Fluoridation is UNSAFE because:
1) It accumulates in our bones and makes them more brittle and prone to fracture. The weight of evidence from animal studies, clinical studies and epidemiological studies on this is overwhelming. Lifetime exposure to fluoride will contribute to higher rates of hip fracture in the elderly.
2) It accumulates in our pineal gland, possibly lowering the production of melatonin a very important regulatory hormone (Luke, 1997, 2001).
3) It damages the enamel (dental fluorosis) of a high percentage of children. Between 30 and 50% of children have dental fluorosis on at least two teeth in optimally fluoridated communities (Heller et al, 1997 and McDonagh et al, 2000).
4) There are serious, but yet unproven, concerns about a connection between fluoridation and osteosarcoma in young men (Cohn, 1992), as well as fluoridation and the current epidemics of both arthritis and hypothyroidism.
5) In animal studies fluoride at 1 ppm in drinking water increases the uptake of aluminum into the brain (Varner et al, 1998).
6) Counties with 3 ppm or more of fluoride in their water have lower fertility rates (Freni, 1994).
7) In human studies the fluoridating agents most commonly used in the US not only increase the uptake of lead into children's blood (Masters and Coplan, 1999, 2000) but are also associated with an increase in violent behavior.
8) The margin of safety between the so-called therapeutic benefit of reducing dental decay and many of these end points is either nonexistent or precariously low.
Fluoridation is INEQUITABLE, because:
1) It will go to all households, and the poor cannot afford to avoid it, if they want to, because they will not be able to purchase bottled water or expensive removal equipment.
2) The poor are more likely to suffer poor nutrition which is known to make children more vulnerable to fluoride's toxic effects (Massler & Schour 1952; Marier & Rose 1977; ATSDR 1993; Teotia et al, 1998).
3) Very rarely, if ever, do governments offer to pay the costs of those who are unfortunate enough to get dental fluorosis severe enough to require expensive treatment.
Fluoridation is INEFFICIENT and NOT COST-EFFECTIVE because:
1) Only a small fraction of the water fluoridated actually reaches the target. Most of it ends up being used to wash the dishes, to flush the toilet or to water our lawns and gardens.
2) It would be totally cost-prohibitive to use pharmaceutical grade sodium fluoride (the substance which has been tested) as a fluoridating agent for the public water supply. Water fluoridation is artificially cheap because, unknown to most people, the fluoridating agent is an unpurified hazardous waste product from the phosphate fertilizer industry.
3) If it was deemed appropriate to swallow fluoride (even though its major benefits are topical not systemic) a safer and more cost-effective approach would be to provide fluoridated bottle water in supermarkets free of charge. This approach would allow both the quality and the dose to be controlled. Moreover, it would not force it on people who don't want it.
Fluoridation is UNSCIENTIFICALLY PROMOTED. For example:
1) In 1950, the US Public Health Service enthusiastically endorsed fluoridation before one single trial had been completed.
2) Even though we are getting many more sources of fluoride today than we were in 1945, the so called "optimal concentration" of 1 ppm has remained unchanged.
3) The US Public health Service has never felt obliged to monitor the fluoride levels in our bones even though they have known for years that 50% of the fluoride we swallow each day accumulates there.
4) Officials that promote fluoridation never check to see what the levels of dental fluorosis are in the communities before they fluoridate, even though they know that this level indicates whether children are being overdosed or not.
5) No US agency has yet to respond to Luke's finding that fluoride accumulates in the human pineal gland, even though her finding was published in 1994 (abstract), 1997 (Ph. D. thesis), 1998 (paper presented at conference of the International Society for Fluoride Research), and 2001 (published in Caries Research).
6) The CDC's 1999, 2001 reports advocating fluoridation were both six years out of date in the research they cited on health concerns.
Fluoridation is UNDEFENDABLE IN OPEN PUBLIC DEBATE.
The proponents of water fluoridation refuse to defend this practice in open debate because they know that they would lose that debate. A vast majority of the health officials around the US and in other countries who promote water fluoridation do so based upon someone else's advice and not based upon a first hand familiarity with the scientific literature. This second hand information produces second rate confidence when they are challenged to defend their position. Their position has more to do with faith than it does with reason.
Those who pull the strings of these public health 'puppets', do know the issues, and are cynically playing for time and hoping that they can continue to fool people with the recitation of a long list of "authorities" which support fluoridation instead of engaging the key issues. As Brian Martin made clear in his book Scientific Knowledge in Controversy: The Social Dynamics of the Fluoridation Debate (1991), the promotion of fluoridation is based upon the exercise of political power not on rational analysis. The question to answer, therefore, is: "Why is the US Public Health Service choosing to exercise its power in this way?"
Motivations - especially those which have operated over several generations of decision makers - are always difficult to ascertain. However, whether intended or not, fluoridation has served to distract us from several key issues. It has distracted us from:
a) The failure of one of the richest countries in the world to provide decent dental care for poor people.
b) The failure of 80% of American dentists to treat children on Medicaid.
c) The failure of the public health community to fight the huge over consumption of sugary foods by our nation's children, even to the point of turning a blind eye to the wholesale introduction of soft drink machines into our schools. Their attitude seems to be if fluoride can stop dental decay why bother controlling sugar intake.
d) The failure to adequately address the health and ecological effects of fluoride pollution from large industry. Despite the damage which fluoride pollution has caused, and is still causing, few environmentalists have ever conceived of fluoride as a 'pollutant.'
e) The failure of the US EPA to develop a Maximum Contaminant Level (MCL) for fluoride in water which can be scientifically defended.
f) The fact that more and more organofluorine compounds are being introduced into commerce in the form of plastics, pharmaceuticals and pesticides. Despite the fact that some of these compounds pose just as much a threat to our health and environment as their chlorinated and brominated counterparts (i.e. they are highly persistent and fat soluble and many accumulate in the food chains and our body fat), those organizations and agencies which have acted to limit the wide-scale dissemination of these other halogenated products, seem to have a blind spot for the dangers posed by organofluorine compounds.
So while fluoridation is neither effective nor safe, it continues to provide a convenient cover for many of the interests which stand to profit from the public being misinformed about fluoride.
Unfortunately, because government officials have put so much of their credibility on the line defending fluoridation, it will be very difficult for them to speak honestly and openly about the issue. As with the case of mercury amalgams, it is difficult for institutions such as the American Dental Association to concede health risks because of the liabilities waiting in the wings if they were to do so.
However, difficult as it may be, it is nonetheless essential - in order to protect millions of people from unnecessary harm - that the US Government begin to move away from its anachronistic, and increasingly absurd, status quo on this issue. There are precedents. They were able to do this with hormone replacement therapy.
But getting any honest action out of the US Government on this is going to be difficult. Effecting change is like driving a nail through wood - science can sharpen the nail but we need the weight of public opinion to drive it home. Thus, it is going to require a sustained effort to educate the American people and then recruiting their help to put sustained pressure on our political representatives. At the very least we need a moratorium on fluoridation (which simply means turning off the tap for a few months) until there has been a full Congressional hearing on the key issues with testimony offered by scientists on both sides. With the issue of education we are in better shape than ever before. Most of the key studies are available on the internet and there are videotaped interviews with many of the scientists and protagonists whose work has been so important to a modern re-evaluation of this issue.
With this new information, more and more communities are rejecting new fluoridation proposals at the local level. On the national level, there have been some hopeful developments as well, such as the EPA Headquarters Union coming out against fluoridation and the Sierra Club seeking to have the issue re-examined. However, there is still a huge need for other national groups to get involved in order to make this the national issue it desperately needs to be.
I hope that if there are RFW readers who disagree with me on this, they will rebut these arguments. If they can't than I hope they will get off the fence and help end one of the silliest policies ever inflicted on the citizens of the US. It is time to end this folly of water fluoridation without further delay. It is not going to be easy. Fluoridation represents a very powerful "belief system" backed up by special interests and by entrenched governmental power and influence.
Paul Connett.
All references cited can be found at http://www.slweb.org/bibliography.html
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,115
Loc: Between
Last seen: 9 hours, 40 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10615754 - 07/03/09 12:16 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
You see how much they have been manipulated already. It WORKS 
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10617391 - 07/03/09 05:42 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Those articles are pretty poorly written. For one, if fluoride is so toxic, why does it matter if they're using "unpurified industrial waste" instead of "pharmaceutical grade fluoride"? Wouldn't pure fluoride be just as bad, if the danger does indeed come from the fluoride itself?
If the danger is in fact coming from some other chemical in the "industrial waste" then I'm going to need to see evidence of what that chemical is. Because it seems to me that the authors of those articles have difficulty grasping the concept that one industry's byproduct is another industry's feedstock. That happens all the time, and it in no way indicates a lack of quality control.
It's going to take more than a few poorly-researched articles to convince me that fluoride is a bad idea. The majority of the scientific evidence points to its effectiveness. Can you show me a multi-nation study or metastudy published in a scientific journal that indicates otherwise?
Start here: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=water+fluoridation good luck 
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10617882 - 07/03/09 07:43 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
"The American Medical Association is NOT prepared to state that no harm will be done to any person by water fluoridation. The AMA has not carried out any research work, either long-term or short-term, regarding the possibility of any side effects." - Dr. Flanagan, Assistant Director of Environmental Health, American Medical Association.
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10617957 - 07/03/09 08:02 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
LOOK AT AL OF THESE
Is that good enough or are you going to be another victim?
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10618386 - 07/03/09 10:07 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, very good, thank you. I'll pick some at random:
Bardsen A, Bjorvatn K. 1998. Risk periods in the development of dental fluorosis. Clinical Oral Investigations 2:155-160.
Quote:
Correlation analyses were also carried out to assess the
strength of association between the fluoride concentration
in the drinking water and the severity of dental fluorosis,
for the included groups of teeth. The strongest correlations
were found in the group exposed to high-fluoride water
from the 1st year of life (Table 5).
This paper confirms what we already knew: too much fluoride is bad for you. No surprises there.
------
Bataineh HN, Nusierb MK. 2006. Impact of 12-week ingestion of sodium fluoride on agression, sexual behavior, and fertility in adult male rats. Fluoride 39(4):293-301. October-December
Quote:
Ingestion of sodium fluoride at 100 and 300 ppm in drinking water for 12
weeks by adult male Sprague-Dawley rats was investigated for effects on territorial
aggression, sexual behavior, and fertility.
Irrelevant. That's hundreds of times higher than the concentration recommended by the WHO.
------
Madans J, Kleinman JC, Cornoni-Huntley J. 1983. The relationship between hip fracture and water fluoridation: an analysis of national data. Am J Pub Health 73(3):296-298
Quote:
Data from the 1973-1977 National Health
Interview Surveys were used to determine whether water
fluoridation prevents hip fractures related to osteoporosis.
No protective effect was found for fluoride levels of 0.7 ppm,
the level recommended for the prevention of dental caries.
water is fluoridated to protect teeth, not hips.
------
Macek M, Matte TD, Sinks T, Malvitz DM. 2006. Blood lead concentrations in children and method of water fluoridation in the United States, 1988-1994. Environmental Health Perspectives 114(1):130-134.
Quote:
Some have hypothesized that community water containing sodium silicofluoride and hydrofluosilicic acid may increase blood lead (PbB) concentrations in children by leaching of lead from water conduits and by increasing absorption of lead from water. Our analysis aimed to evaluate the relation between water fluoridation method and PbB concentrations in children.
Across stratum-specific models for dwellings of known age, neither hydrofluosilicic acid nor sodium silicofluoride were associated with higher geometric mean PbB concentrations or prevalence values. Given these findings, our analyses, though not definitive, do not support concerns that silicofluorides in community water systems cause higher PbB concentrations in children. Current evidence does not provide a basis for changing water fluoridation practices, which have a clear public health benefit.
------
Mendrala AL, Markham DA, Eisenbrandt DL. 2005. Rapid uptake, metabolism, and elimination of inhaled sulfuryl fluoride fumigant by rats. Toxicological Sciences 86(2):239-247. August.
I'm not even going to bother with this one because it clearly has no relevance to fluoridated water. There's a lot of articles like this listed on that site.
------
Seppa L. Karkkainen S, Hausen H. 2002. Caries occurrence in a fluoridated and a nonfluoridated town in Finland: a retrospective study using longitudinal data from public dental records. Caries Research 36(5):308-314. September-October.
Quote:
The tap water of Kuopio, Finland, was fluoridated from 1959 to 1992. In the first decade of fluoridation, children in Kuopio had lower DMF values than children in Jyväskylä, a nearby low-fluoride town, but later differences between the towns have been small and inconsistent. The present study aimed to gain further insight into caries occurrence in Kuopio and Jyväskylä using longitudinal tooth-specific data from public health records on cohorts born in 1970/71 and 1980/81 (total n = 1,503). Survival analyses were used to summarize the tooth-specific times elapsed between eruption and the first filling (used as a proxy for dental caries). Generally, the first filling was placed sooner after eruption in the 1970/71 cohort than in the 1980/81 cohort. The curves for the two towns were virtually identical except for the first molars of the 1970/71 cohort, for which the percentage of filled first molars was consistently lower in Jyväskylä than in Kuopio. This study indicates that, among children and adolescents whose permanent teeth erupted in the mid-1970s or thereafter, even a longitudinal approach did not reveal a lower caries occurrence in the fluoridated than in the low-fluoride reference community. The main reason for the modest effect of water fluoridation in Finnish circumstances is probably the widespread use of other measures for caries prevention. The children have been exposed to such intense efforts to increase tooth resistance that the effect of water fluoridation does not show up any more. The results must not be extrapolated to countries with less intensive preventive dental care.
No comment needed. The abstract says it all.
-----------
Yes, those articles were all picked at random. None of them provide any evidence that water fluoridation causes more harm than benefit. I think the editors of that site have just collected every article that mentions 'fluoride' without bothering to read them.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10619218 - 07/04/09 04:22 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
"I am appalled at the prospect of using water as a vehicle for drugs.
Fluoride is a corrosive poison that will produce serious effects on a
long range basis. Any attempt to use water this way is deplorable."
- Dr. Charles Gordon Heyd, Past President of the American Medical Association.
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10619249 - 07/04/09 04:40 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
I think the editors of that site have just collected every article that mentions 'fluoride' without bothering to read them.
bingo
I'm constantly surprised that people have no idea how science works or that they will be convinced by citations without reading them.
The meer fact that there are so many cites reveals they took a scattershot approach to trying to convince people who are extremely gullible.
It doesn't take a hundred citations, it only takes one to show problematic inferences- why can't they produce any? It seems that the issue has been looked at, so its hard for me to see how a major problem could have slipped by.
---
Fluoridation still seems a bad idea to me. I would drink two gallons of water at work alone in the summer when doing landscapping, and its a bit unnerving to see that this would put easily over a problematic level with even the conservative recomendations urged by groups supporting fluoridation- let alone the more agressive levels some communities use. Should we only have 'safe' water if we consume usual quantities of water? Should someone who landscapes for 12 hours a day be fucked cuz the city wants to target the general population rather than be concerned with safe levels for the vast majority?
The fundamental issue is that there seems to be no great neccesity for it, and so people should be free of it. Fluoride is dirt cheap and cities should instead buy it and sell and cost for people to fluoridate their own shit, if they like. These are not decisions a city should make without disclosure and consent of the people receiving their water. It woudl be different if it was noncompulsory, but since it isn't, they need to take a hike.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10619643 - 07/04/09 07:02 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
That's a very good point about drinking two gallons of water (which is like 10 litres I think?) though children are more vulnerable to fluorosis than adults, according to the papers I've read.
Anyway I think fluoridated salt could be a good alternative, in the same way that we currently have iodated salt.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
 Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10619685 - 07/04/09 07:12 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
If this world made any sense at all you would think that communities might try putting nootropics in their water supply....
It is just wrong that there is no visible public push for people to make themselves more intelligent through supplementation...
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10619695 - 07/04/09 07:14 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Sadly intelligence isn't a particularly desirable trait in our society.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
 Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10619726 - 07/04/09 07:25 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Sadly intelligence isn't a particularly desirable trait in our society.
Are you being facetious?
I recall a short sci-fi story I read in which teenagers are given a standardized government test that "weeds out" the abnormally stupid and intelligent....
Yes we live in a society of disturbing mediocrity and "normalcy".
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10619771 - 07/04/09 07:43 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
No, I'm not being facetious. I really don't think that our society values intelligence.
Who is more famous, the actress in Transformers or the guy who won the Nobel prize for Medicine last year?
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,669
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 54 minutes, 6 seconds
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10619798 - 07/04/09 07:52 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
No, I'm not being facetious. I really don't think that our society values intelligence.
Who is more famous, the actress in Transformers or the guy who won the Nobel prize for Medicine last year?
This is probably because the environment created by Western civilization doesn't provide evolutionary stresses upon intelligence, but much more so one's chemical nature. After so many epidemics created by living in densely-packed cities in Eurasia for so long and being around domesticated animals, being able to survive them is what has selected successive populations, much more than needing to be directly, purely aware of one's environment, the nature of the presence of those around you, taking in, paying attention to, and acting upon information being collected, and other stuff that is associated with fighting for survival, things which I think stress intelligence more than your chemical composition being able to withstand assaults.
I mean, how hard is it to survive in Western civilization, provided you've started with enough of a means to be able to sustain yourself (i.e. not born being poor and misdeveloped)?
I think intelligence is a trait that is likely to be more stressed in the future, as well as awareness, when people start to evolve more mentally and emotionally, as result of living in an interconnected, global society (in a way much more prevalent than simply having trade routes over seas and the like)...
--------------------
  
 
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10619807 - 07/04/09 07:54 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
There is some truth to that. Often when I try to talk to people they end up changing the subject and bringing up baseball or something.
It is disconcerting how most people I talk to find sports to be so important.
Women are often much easier to engage in intelligent discussion than men.
I surmise that it is not just intelligence (lack thereof) that is the problem so much as the degree of social conditioning of the people.
|
fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,669
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 54 minutes, 6 seconds
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10619832 - 07/04/09 08:01 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
There is some truth to that. Often when I try to talk to people they end up changing the subject and bringing up baseball or something.
I understand the sentiment, but then there's the idea that maybe a lot of these people simply enjoy the physical activity or even just partaking in observing sporting events, and there certainly isn't anything untoward about that. I know you were talking more about them changing subjects that you feel are a matter of higher intelligence, but then again there's the idea that they simply aren't as compelled to be interested in these things, and so they instead focus on what they enjoy doing. I've seen a lot of football fanatics that know the rosters of all the teams, as well as all their stats.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
|
Booby
Agent Mulder
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10619839 - 07/04/09 08:04 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Baseball, I think, presents a conundrum for some. There's a question whether the diamond is within the circle, or the other way around.
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Booby]
#10619869 - 07/04/09 08:14 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I have been told that baseball is extremely important and that "feels true" to me, I just don't understand why....
|
Booby
Agent Mulder
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10619881 - 07/04/09 08:19 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I've never been a much of a sports supporter. The roots of such a lifelong avid obsession could make for an interesting thesis.
Edited by Booby (07/04/09 08:20 AM)
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Booby]
#10619940 - 07/04/09 08:44 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The only thing I can see from a genetics perspective is an interest in the improvement of central nervous system adaptation.
It is healthy for adolescents to improve their physical coordination and fitness during those years. Also, I found that one's metabolism is determined at least in part to the activities engaged in during that period of development.
Of course there is also "mens sana in corpore sana".
Being physically fit does help dispel mental fogginess.
Booby, if you haven't already I recommend such supplements like pyroglutamic acid (an amino acid found in the blood, brain, and cerebro-spinal fluid) for improved cognition AND physical coordination (this effects strength as well, given that strength is determined in part to central nervous system information processing speeds!)
Piracetam is amazing if you can get it...
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10620113 - 07/04/09 09:25 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Sadly intelligence isn't a particularly desirable trait in our society.
Hence the fluoride, aspartame, etc....
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
 
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 55 minutes, 27 seconds
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10620133 - 07/04/09 09:31 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
Quote:
zouden said:
Sadly intelligence isn't a particularly desirable trait in our society.
Hence the fluoride, aspartame, etc....
What's with these?
--------------------
   
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10621983 - 07/04/09 05:04 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Are you claiming that fluoride and aspartame are being used to lower IQ? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10622081 - 07/04/09 05:35 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
or extraordinary intelligence
to see it going down
right in front of our faces
I'm not going to prove or disprove this. I feel that this thread is almost dead. I'm not going to cling to it, just let it pass.
If you are supposed to know, the universe will show you. If you are not, then you won't. Just have hope that everything will be alright because most likely it won't be.
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10622534 - 07/04/09 08:37 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Are you claiming that fluoride and aspartame are being used to lower IQ? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Nothing on aspartame lowering IQ, but it does plenty of other bad.
http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/newscience/2007/2007-0705wangetal.html
http://www.fluoridealert.org/iq.studies.html
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/07/whats-the-deal-with-fluoride/
http://www.wddty.com/fluoride-lowering-iq-s.html
http://www.fluoridation.com/brain.htm
http://www.benfrank.net/nuke/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=152
http://www.fluoride-journal.com/00-33-2/332-74.pdf
http://www.fluorideresearch.org/384/files/384326-327.pdf
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-168423800.html (Arsnic mentioned lowering IQ in Bangladesh)
http://www.hans.org/magazine/396/presentation-fluoride-toronto-august.html
http://kanester.com/wordpress/?p=59
http://miami.indymedia.org/news/2008/03/10729.php
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=20987749
http://www.prisonplanet.com/experts-disagree-on-fluoride-in-drinking-water.html
Quote:
Experts disagree on fluoride in drinking water
CTV.ca News
Saturday, Aug 9, 2008
Fluoride can have a detrimental effect on a child’s IQ and should be removed from drinking water, anti-fluoride activists said Thursday.
Members of the Fluoride Action Network and Citizens for a Safe Environment said they have found studies from China and other countries that prove fluoride exposure may inhibit the development of a child’s brain.
video here
An international group of scientists who study fluoride in drinking water appeared with members of the two advocacy groups at a Queen’s Park press conference.
“Does fluoride cause problems? Absolutely,” Paul Connet, director of the Fluoride Action Network, told reporters. “Fluoride lowers thyroid function, fluoride damages the bone and fluoride lowers IQ. All of these have been demonstrated in India and China.”
However, a prominent Ontario dentist defends the presence of fluoride in drinking water, and refutes claims that it can cause a range of health problems in children.
Dr. Larry Levin appeared on CTV Newsnet on Thursday and dismissed concerns that fluoride is linked to health problems such as lower IQs in children.
Levin referred to a recent report posted on Health Canada’s website that recommended reducing the amount of fluoride in drinking water but found no evidence to suggest a link between fluoride and an increased risk of cancer, developmental or reproductive problems or a lower IQ.
“They’ve brought together six top experts who have carefully looked at all of the details and they have come to a very clear result that there is not a link that would suggest fluoride is going to cause the problems that some people would suggest,” Levin said.
The report, which was dated April 2008, recommends reducing the amount of fluoride, a chemical that prevents tooth decay, in drinking water.
The report says fluoride levels should be lowered to 0.7 parts per million from the current range of 0.8 to one ppm.
However, this recommendation is designed to lower the incidence rates of a stain that fluoride can leave on teeth.
The report also recommends that children up to age three use low-fluoride toothpaste, and says that fluoride levels in infant formula should be reduced.
Health Canada told CTV News last month that it accepts the recommendations, but would leave it up to the individual municipalities to implement them.
Levin said that children should be exposed to fluoride in drinking water to ward off dental problems later in life.
“The fluoride gets incorporated into the enamel of the tooth at the time that the tooth is forming, so this makes a stronger coating on the tooth which is more resistant to decay right from the very start,” Levin said.
--------------------
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10622742 - 07/04/09 09:52 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
That article is a perfect example of the discourse surrounding fluoridation. On one side, you have public advocacy groups saying they "have found studies from China and other countries that prove fluoride exposure may inhibit the development of a child’s brain" without providing any of the crucial details such as the concentration used in the study. It's as if they feel such details aren't necessary.
And on the other side, you have people saying that there's no link between fluoridated water and IQ, and they go on to recommend the concentration in water be reduced slightly to lower the incidence of fluorosis. Since they actually mentioned the concentrations uses, I get the impression that only one side is bothering to use science to back up their arguments.
The anti-fluoride side consistently fails to take into account the concentrations used in water supplies. I'd take their arguments more seriously if they didn't keep making glaring mistakes like that.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
 Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10624048 - 07/05/09 09:07 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah absolutely...
Since we don't know 110% you should take real good care of your teeth. Maybe you should stockpile fluoride pills and munch on them like candy.
Hey, I heard that the Nazis were helping the Jews concentrate better with the heavily fluoridated water....
No, wait a minute, it just destroyed their ability to fight back and have thoughts that even resembled intelligence.
Right Zuoden, "more studies are needed" before we jump to any hasty conclusions.....
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 55 minutes, 27 seconds
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10624125 - 07/05/09 09:33 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Did you actually take some time to read what was being discussed, and how? Because from the way your reply sounds, it looks like you're negatively reacting to nothing, not to mention that your examples with the nazis and jews have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
ANYTHING, in huge quantities, can do harm to one's body, but what does this have to do with the level of fluoride from the toothpaste and water?
All the links quoted above are not peer reviewed, are incomplete, and only show a correlation between some illness and fluoride. Remember: correlation, not causation.
Why is it necessary to look for deeper evidence? Um,... probably because all the "studies" I've read from here and on my own don't actually prove that fluoride makes you stupid, especially the quantities found in toothpaste and water, which are added in the quantities necessary for having healthy teeth; the quantities of the added fluoride from the water resembles the naturally-occurring quantities of fluoride in other areas where people don't have a fluoride deficiency.
I do think that it is important to keep looking for evidence without getting attached to a paranoid idea, since something like this will only cloud one's reasoning making him unwilling to learn new things or accept the results of more valid studies.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
 Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10624137 - 07/05/09 09:35 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Dude
I know
FLUORIDE HELPS YOU CONCENTRATE!
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10624334 - 07/05/09 10:32 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Dude
I know
FLUORIDE HELPS YOU CONCENTRATE!
GTFO
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10624363 - 07/05/09 10:38 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Dude
I know
FLUORIDE HELPS YOU CONCENTRATE!
GTFO
I see you're going to act all P.C.
Instead of pretending to be offended maybe you should consider the neurological effects of something that was used on people in concentration camps.
It's wrong to talk bad about government fucking with the water supply!
How fucking dare I talk badly about the authority figures!
Edited by Mr.Al (07/05/09 10:39 AM)
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 55 minutes, 27 seconds
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10624613 - 07/05/09 11:38 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Wow, it's great that you missed the point again, this really makes the discussion fruitful.
Look dude, this is a debate forum, and you do have a responsibility to back up all your claims.
Saying that because fluoride was used on jews to make them ill (BTW, you should present some evidence for this too, because I personally never heard of this until now) doesn't mean that the QUANTITIES of fluoride in water and toothpaste causes illness. Please provide with research that clearly shows: 1) Fluoride is toxic and causes illness; 2) The quantities of fluoride from the water and toothpaste are detrimental for the human health.
Without this you can't expect to be take seriously and have a discussion in that direction.
My personal view is that any govt should inform the people about the water contents, along with giving them the option to refuse any water supplements. This however doesn't imply that the govt is evil and puts fluoride in the water to harm people and make them stupid.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10624867 - 07/05/09 12:28 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Dude
I know
FLUORIDE HELPS YOU CONCENTRATE!
GTFO
I see you're going to act all P.C.
Instead of pretending to be offended maybe you should consider the neurological effects of something that was used on people in concentration camps.
It's wrong to talk bad about government fucking with the water supply!
How fucking dare I talk badly about the authority figures!
Like mushroomtrip, I'm not offended that your opinion differes from mine, but that you'd waste our time with bullshit fallacy.
If you actually have something to add then go for it.
We've already covered the appeals to incredulity and naked appeals to hitler (one of many dishonest associations that totally neglect dosage, as zouden has repeatedly pointed out). Oh yeah, and link bombs with pages of totally irrelevant studies which the poster hasn't even alleged to have any particular relevance in the discussion. We've also had plenty of straw man arguments too, so your "How dare I talk badly about authority figures" is nothing new either.
We don't need any more bullshit in this thread.
Do your really want a forum where "DUDE I KNOW, FLUORIDE HELPS YOU CONCENTRATE!!! THEY WERE JUST HELPING THE JEWSSSS!"
is retorted with "DUDE, IF YOU HATE YOUR TEETH SO MUCH, WHY DON'T YOU JUST CHEW ON RUSTY NAILS!!!!"
seriously? Is that debate to you?
Like mushroomtrip says, this is a debate forum. Enough with the bullshit, something relevant to the discussion of water fluroidation in the manner urged or practiced today would be nice.
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10624925 - 07/05/09 12:37 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Are you interested in providing evidence that fluoride doesn't increase intelligence?
http://www.healthy-communications.com/fluorideasratpoison.html
http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/22517
http://www.greaterthings.com/Lexicon/F/Fluoride.htm
I guess what it comes down to is whether you personally think rat poison MIGHT have a detrimental effect on cognitive functioning.
Maybe just a little rat poison might not make people straight up retarded but.....
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10624964 - 07/05/09 12:46 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I know right! I've been trying to get coumadin banned for years, only they tell me people keep dieing of heart attacks and strokes when they take it away. But its RAT POISON! OMG! Holly shit!
And no, I don't care that it doesn't increase intelligence, neither does table salt, sleeping, or breathing. Who cares? I'm interested if the claims of harm can be sustained, and what those harms are, not evidence showing it may be inert.
Not that you did so now neccesarily, but if your gong to drop multiple links on us please make sure you assert some relevant claim and cite where its demonstrated in the link. Previous posters have just link bombed with wholly irrelevant giberish and didn't even allege any relevance, let alone a particular claim.
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10625002 - 07/05/09 01:00 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
johnm214 said:
I know right! I've been trying to get coumadin banned for years, only they tell me people keep dieing of heart attacks and strokes when they take it away. But its RAT POISON! OMG! Holly shit!
And no, I don't care that it doesn't increase intelligence, neither does table salt, sleeping, or breathing. Who cares? I'm interested if the claims of harm can be sustained, and what those harms are, not evidence showing it may be inert.
Not that you did so now neccesarily, but if your gong to drop multiple links on us please make sure you assert some relevant claim and cite where its demonstrated in the link. Previous posters have just link bombed with wholly irrelevant giberish and didn't even allege any relevance, let alone a particular claim.
Listen, I personally stay away from sodium fluoride. I have found that this is one subject of many that people don't look into because it's easier for them to believe that it isn't a problem.
Here is some information that links sodium fluoride to dental fluorosis, cancer (including bone), thyroid problems, Chinese say it lowers I.Q., and it's a known neurotoxin....
http://www.healthsentinel.com/news.php?event=news_print_list_item&id=1440
Dr. Limeback, "GUEST VIEW: The evidence that fluoride is harmful is overwhelming", Standard Times, May 14, 2006,
Link: http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/05-06/05-14-06/02opinion.htm
Dr. Limeback was one of the 12 scientists who served on the National Academy of Sciences panel that issued the 2006 report, "Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of the EPA's Standards." Dr. Limeback is an associate professor of dentistry and head of the preventive dentistry program at the University of Toronto.
The argument against fluoridation is strong when all the points listed below are taken together.
1. Fluoridation is no longer effective.
Fluoride in water has the effect of delaying tooth eruption and, therefore, simply delays dental decay (Komarek et al, 2005, Biostatistics 6:145-55). The studies that water fluoridation work are over 25 years old and were carried out before the widespread use of fluoridated toothpaste. There are numerous modern studies to show that there no longer is a difference in dental decay rates between fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas, the most recent one in Australia (Armfield & Spencer, 2004 Community Dental Oral Epidemiology. 32:283-96). Recent water fluoridation cessation studies show that dental fluorosis (a mottling of the enamel caused by fluoride) declines but there is no corresponding increase in dental decay (e.g. Maupome et al 2001, Community Dental Oral Epidemiology 29: 37-47).
Public health services will claim there is a dental decay crisis. With the national average in the U.S. of only two decayed teeth per child (World Health Organization data), down from more than 15 decayed teeth in the 1940s and 1950s before fluoridated toothpaste, as much as half of all children grow up not having a single filling. This remarkable success has been achieved in other developed countries without fluoridation. The "crisis" of dental decay in the U.S. often mentioned is the result, to a major extent, of sugar abuse, especially soda pop. A 2005 report by Jacobsen of the Center for Science in the Public Interest said that U.S. children consume 40 to 44 percent of their daily refined sugar in the form of soft drinks. Since most soft drinks are themselves fluoridated, the small amount of fluoride is obviously not helping.
The families of these children with rampant dental decay need professional assistance. Are they getting it? Children who grow up in low-income families make poor dietary choices, and cannot afford dental care. Untreated dental decay and lack of professional intervention result in more dental decay. The York review was unable to show that fluoridation benefited poor people.
Similarly, early dental decay in nursing infants (baby bottle syndrome) cannot be prevented with water fluoridation. The majority of dentists in the U.S. do not accept Medicaid patients because they lose money treating these patients. Dentists support fluoridation programs because it absolves them of their responsibility to provide assistance to those who cannot afford dental treatment. Even cities where water fluoridation has been in effect for years are reporting similar dental "crises."
Public health officials responsible for community programs are misleading the public by stating that ingesting fluoride "makes the teeth stronger." Fluoride is not an essential nutrient. It does not make developing teeth better prepared to resist dental decay before they erupt into the oral environment. The small benefit that fluoridated water might still have on teeth (in the absence of fluoridated toothpaste use) is the result of "topical" exposure while the teeth are rebuilding from acid challenges brought on by daily sugar and starch exposure (Limeback 1999, Community Dental Oral Epidemiology 27: 62-71), and this has now been recognized by the Centers for Disease Control.
2. Fluoridation is the main cause of dental fluorosis.
Fluoride doses by the end user can't be controlled when only one concentration of fluoride (1 parts per million) is available in the drinking water. Babies and toddlers get too much fluoride when tap water is used to make formula (Brothwell & Limeback, 2003 Journal of Human Lactation 19: 386-90). Since the majority of daily fluoride comes from the drinking water in fluoridated areas, the risk for dental fluorosis greatly increases (National Academy of Sciences: Toxicological Risk of Fluoride in Drinking Water, 2006).
We have tripled our exposure to fluoride since fluoridation was conceived in the 1940s. This has lead to every third child with dental fluorosis (CDC, 2005). Fluorosis is not just a cosmetic effect. The more severe forms are associated with an increase in dental decay (NAS: Toxicological Risk of Fluoride in Drinking Water, 2006) and the psychological impact on children is a negative one. Most children with moderate and severe dental fluorosis seek extensive restorative work costing thousands of dollars. Dental fluorosis can be reduced by turning off the fluoridation taps without affecting dental decay rates (Burt et al 2000 Journal of Dental Research 79(2):761-9).
3. Chemicals that are used in fluoridation have not been tested for safety.
All the animal cancer studies were done on pharmaceutical-grade sodium fluoride. There is more than enough evidence to show that even this fluoride has the potential to promote cancer. Some communities use sodium fluoride in their drinking water, but even that chemical is not the same fluoride added to toothpaste. Most cities instead use hydrofluorosilicic acid (or its salt). H2SiF6 is concentrated directly from the smokestack scrubbers during the production of phosphate fertilizer, shipped to water treatment plants and trickled directly into the drinking water. It is industrial grade fluoride contaminated with trace amounts of heavy metals such as lead, arsenic and radium, which are harmful to humans at the levels that are being added to fluoridate the drinking water. In addition, using hydrofluorosilicic acid instead of industrial grade sodium fluoride has an added risk of increasing lead accumulation in children (Masters et al 2000, Neurotoxicology. 21(6): 1091- 1099), probably from the lead found in the pipes of old houses. This could not be ruled out by the CDC in their recent study (Macek et al 2006, Environmental Health Perspectives 114:130-134).
4. There are serious health risks from water fluoridation.
Cancer: Osteosarcoma (bone cancer) has recently been identified as a risk in young boys in a recently published Harvard study (Bassin, Cancer Causes and Control, 2006). The author of this study, Dr. Elise Bassin, acknowledges that perhaps it is the use of these untested and contaminated fluorosilicates mentioned above that caused the seven-fold increase risk of bone cancer.
Bone fracture: Drinking on average 1 liter/day of naturally fluoridated water at 4 parts per million increases your risk for bone pain and bone fractures (National Academy of Sciences: Toxicological Risk of Fluoride in Drinking Water, 2006). Since fluoride accumulates in bone, the same risk occurs in people who drink 4 liters/day of artificially fluoridated water at 1 part per million, or in people with renal disease. Fluoridation studies have never properly shown that fluoride is safe in individuals who cannot control their dose, or in patients who retain too much fluoride.
Adverse thyroid function: The recent National Academy of Sciences report (NAS: Toxicological Risk of Fluoride in Drinking Water, 2006) outlines in great detail the detrimental effect that fluoride has on the endocrine system, especially the thyroid. Fluoridation should be halted on the basis that endocrine function in the U.S. has never been studied in relation to total fluoride intake.
Adverse neurological effects: In addition to the added accumulation of lead (a known neurotoxin) in children living in fluoridated cities, fluoride itself is a known neurotoxin. We are only now starting to understand how fluoride affects the brain. While some recent Chinese studies suggest that fluoride in drinking water lowers IQ (NAS, 2006), we need to study this more in depth in North America.
In my opinion, the evidence that fluoridation is more harmful than beneficial is now overwhelming and policy makers who avoid thoroughly reviewing recent data before introducing new fluoridation schemes do so at risk of future litigation.
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10625145 - 07/05/09 01:39 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10625279 - 07/05/09 02:07 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Here is some information that links sodium fluoride to dental fluorosis, cancer (including bone), thyroid problems, Chinese say it lowers I.Q., and it's a known neurotoxin....
Even if this is true, so what?
What are we discussing here? Is it the debate over whether fluoride can be dangerous? No, as I said, its the discussion over whether there are dangers of fluoridation in drinking water in the recomended levels or the levels used.
I see nothing in your post that is relevant to this, please point out where, if anywhere, relevant information appears. I allready complained about this, can we stick to relevant topics please? Nobody has debated that fluoride can be dangerous, and the only relevant statement I see in the article you link to is totally unsupported (claims about fluoride building up in bones and meaning dangerous levels can be lower than said in the study cited).
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
Statement from Dr Phyllis Mullenix, Ph D
Did you not see my complaints above about link bombing irrelevancies?
What is this supposed to demonstrate? I didn't see anything probative of the questions raised when I skimmed that.
Your the person that link bombed a thousand citations that have nothing whatsoever to do with anything, so far as could be determined, and didn't even make a claim as to relevance.
Could you stop posting random links without an accompying claim as to relevance?
Additionally, some random person's opinion is not probative evidence.
|
Arden
לנשום
Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,648
Loc: Α & Ω
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10625281 - 07/05/09 02:08 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I tried to make sense of the information, but none of the claims are organized or coherent. Merely being suspicious of the government and observing phenomenological patterns in a paranoid fashion isn't sufficient in my book.
|
Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 36,989
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 5 hours, 10 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10625284 - 07/05/09 02:09 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
Statement from Dr Phyllis Mullenix, Ph D
The fact somebody has a Ph D doesn't mean they aren't batshit crazy. At least on some issues- look at Linus Pauling and Vitamin C.
--------------------
.
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10625296 - 07/05/09 02:13 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The Canadian study is quite interesting. If I remember correctly, the average fluoride level in unadjusted water is around .5-.7 ppm.
The Chinese studies seem to be focused on above average levels, compared to normal and below normal levels, all from un-adjusted water supplies. Negative effects were seen in the 3+ ppm range, and another study indicates that the mortality rate of rats is lowered at 2.1 ppm.
I've read that the ADA is now recommending that infant formula not be mixed with fluoridated water. Since kids don't start growing their permanent teeth until around age 6, I see no reason why anyone under this age should have to drink water with additional fluoride.
I find interesting quotes without looking very hard, like this one from March 23, 2006: A panel of the National Academy of Sciences concluded yesterday that the maximum amount of fluoride currently allowed in the nation's drinking water can cause health problems and "should be lowered."
Basically, confidence in the safety of fluoride goes down, as time goes on. There was a time when people would balk at the idea, but more and more professionals are taking the possibility seriously. The thing is, when fluoride was introduced into the water supply, the only research done on possible negative side effects was on fluorosis. This strikes me as odd, that when determining whether it will be safe to add something to drinking water that is more toxic than lead, that the only concern is whether the teeth will get discolored. ?
And for what? "Overall, drinking fluoridated water cuts the rate of tooth decay 18% to 40%, according to a 2001 analysis by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention -- which translates into fewer than one decayed tooth surface per person." And there is contradictory information from professional sources.
Before WW2, toothbrushes were made from bore hair, and a substantial portion of the population wasn't using them. The modern toothbrush became widely distributed following WW2, from 1945 on, and the masses of people began to pick up the practice. Before the boar hair brush, which was invented in the late 1800's, people would clean their teeth using a rag and some salt, or soot. When did we start fluoridating the water? 1945. The condition of teeth started to improve. Was it the fluoride, or the toothbrushes?
These quotes are from here, a man who worked in New Zealand as a dental officer:
"I looked at the new dental statistics that had been collected while I was away for my own Health District, Auckland. These were for all children attending school dental clinics — virtually the entire child population of Auckland. To my surprise, they showed that fewer fillings had been required in the non fluoridated part of my district than in the fluoridated part. When I obtained the same statistics from the districts to the north and south of mine — that is, from "Greater Auckland," which contains a quarter of New Zealand's population — the picture was the same: tooth decay had declined, but there was virtually no difference in tooth decay rates between the fluoridated and non fluoridated places. In fact, teeth were slightly better in the non fluoridated areas. I wondered why I had not been sent the statistics for the rest of New Zealand. When I requested them, they were sent to me with a warning that they were not to be made public. Those for 1981 showed that in most Health Districts the percentage of 12- and 13-year-old children who were free of tooth decay - that is, had perfect teeth - was greater in the non-fluoridated part of the district. Eventually the information was published"
"Other large-scale surveys from United States, from Missouri and Arizona, have since revealed the same picture: no real benefit to teeth from fluoride in drinking water [9, 10]. For example, Professor Steelink in Tucson, AZ, obtained information on the dental status of all schoolchildren – 26,000 of them – as well as information on the fluoride content of Tucson water [10]. He found: "When we plotted the incidence of tooth decay versus fluoride content in a child's neighborhood drinking water, a positive correlation was revealed. In other words, the more fluoride a child drank, the more cavities appeared in the teeth" [11]."
"From other lands — Australia, Britain, Canada, Sri Lanka, Greece, Malta, Spain, Hungary, and India — a similar situation has been revealed: either little or no relation between water fluoride and tooth decay, or a positive one (more fluoride, more decay) [12-17]. For example, over 30 years Professor Teotia and his team in India have examined the teeth of some 400,000 children. They found that tooth decay increases as fluoride intake increases. Tooth decay, they decided, results from a deficiency of calcium and an excess of fluoride [17]."
And on bone degeneration:
"But in addition to these epidemiological studies, clinical trials have demonstrated that when fluoride was used in an attempt to treat osteoporosis (in the belief it strengthened bones), it actually caused more hip fractures [48-52]. That is, when fluoride accumulates in bones, it weakens them. We have always known that only around half of any fluoride we swallow is excreted in our urine; the rest accumulates in our bones [53, 54]. But we believed that the accumulation would be insignificant at the low fluoride levels of fluoridated water. However, researchers in Finland during the 1980s reported that people who lived 10 years or more in that country's one fluoridated city, Kuopio, had accumulated extremely high levels of fluoride in their bones — thousands of parts per million — especially osteoporosis sufferers and people with impaired kidney function [55, 56]. After this research was published, Finland stopped fluoridation altogether. But that information has been ignored by our fluoridationists."
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10625416 - 07/05/09 02:34 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, I already said I agree with the Canadian recommendation for reducing the level to 0.7-0.8ppm, if the evidence says that it can reduce fluorosis while maintaining dental health.
Quote:
"From other lands — Australia, Britain, Canada, Sri Lanka, Greece, Malta, Spain, Hungary, and India — a similar situation has been revealed: either little or no relation between water fluoride and tooth decay, or a positive one (more fluoride, more decay) [12-17]
Interesting, over here we've just started fluoridating water in Brisbane because our cavity rates are the highest of any capital city, and we're the only ones who didn't fluoridate. I'll have to have a look at those citations.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
Edited by zouden (07/05/09 02:45 PM)
|
Viveka
Architecturer
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 3,253
Last seen: 10 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10625640 - 07/05/09 03:20 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Even if this is true, so what?
What are we discussing here? Is it the debate over whether fluoride can be dangerous? No, as I said, its the discussion over whether there are dangers of fluoridation in drinking water in the recomended levels or the levels used.
Dude, seriously? Why should the health and well-being of every citizen who drinks tap water be put into question in the name of a fucking experiment in dental care? Don't forget to take into account that nearly every brand of toothpaste already contains fluoride and to find a brand that doesn't requires a visit to a health food store. Keep in mind, the label on fluoride toothpaste says: "If you accidentally swallow more than used for brushing, seek professional help or contact a poison control center immediately". Lol!
Let's also not neglect to consider that 5 out of 5 dentists (and the warning labels on toothpaste) agree that fluoride should certainly not be swallowed, yet, that is most peoples direct intent with a glass of tap water.
Also realize that no long term studies were carried out on either the safety or the efficacy of the fluoridation of water previous to the introduction of this military-industrial waste product into municipal water supplies.
So, then, who set the "recommended levels" of fluoride in drinking water and how were these levels derived? Why should a known poison be introduced into water at any level? Shouldn't drinking water be maintained at a pure a level as possible to facilitate the hydration of people with the least possible incidence of potentially unknown or harmful side effects? If you want fluoride, go to the fucking dentist or brush your teeth with Crest, don't put it in water for drinking! How is this not just common sense in today's world?
--------------------
Throw out your gold teeth and see how they roll
The answer they reveal - life is unreal
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Viveka]
#10625712 - 07/05/09 03:31 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
So you quote my post with the question I think is pertinent, and then you entirely ignore that and ramble about toothpaste, ethics, and public policy- never explaining what any of this has to do with whether or not fluoride causes problems in the recomended or generally used levels.
Why is it that the fluoride haters can never post relevant material or constantly link bomb with irrelevant articles they don't even pretend to assert as relevant?
Quote:
zouden said:
Yes, I already said I agree with the Canadian recommendation for reducing the level to 0.7-0.8ppm, if the evidence says that it can reduce fluorosis while maintaining dental health.
And yet that would still put me at risk for some problems, wouldn't it? I never knew about these issues when I was working 12 hour days and drinking 2 gallons of water, and I was still growing so my tolerance was lower.
Isn't no fluoride better, ethically?
I agree these levels are better than higher levels, but people who drink lots of water shouldn't be subjected to toxic effects just cuz the majority of the population won't have an issue with it- all the while being taxed and assessed money to support the delivery of water that they don't want.
What it comes down to, is I don't see how fluoridated water is at all neccesary and it shouldn't be forced on people without warning and consent- which is what's being done now.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Viveka]
#10625723 - 07/05/09 03:33 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Why should a known poison be introduced into water at any level?
Better get all that chlorine out too. The Germans used it in WW1. Also, better remove all traces of salt from the water, since salt was used by the Egyptians to preserve mummies, and you don't want to end up like a mummy do you??
There's so many chemicals in water these days, we should just remove all of them and drink ultra-pure distilled water.
Oh wait.
Seriously, can we stop with the "X is bad in large doses so it's bad at any dose" argument? It's intellectually dishonest.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10625779 - 07/05/09 03:43 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Isn't no fluoride better, ethically?
I agree these levels are better than higher levels, but people who drink lots of water shouldn't be subjected to toxic effects just cuz the majority of the population won't have an issue with it- all the while being taxed and assessed money to support the delivery of water that they don't want.
What it comes down to, is I don't see how fluoridated water is at all neccesary and it shouldn't be forced on people without warning and consent- which is what's being done now.
Good point. The counter-argument is that the government has an interest in the well-being of the populace, so it has the moral authority to enact public health laws (within reason). I think air quality regulations fall into this category. Reducing air pollution is a relatively simple move that increases the population's health. Similarly, adding fluoride to water is a relatively simple (and cost-effective) move that increases the population's health. As long as the side effects (fluorosis) are kept to a minimum then statistically the move makes sense.
Personal question: do you feel that you have suffered fluorosis as a result of your time drinking 2 gallons of water? I think that we're looking at a bell-curve of effects, so that drinking 10 litres of water puts you in the "at risk" category, but that's it.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Viveka
Architecturer
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 3,253
Last seen: 10 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10625984 - 07/05/09 04:29 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Better get all that chlorine out too. The Germans used it in WW1. Also, better remove all traces of salt from the water, since salt was used by the Egyptians to preserve mummies, and you don't want to end up like a mummy do you??
There's so many chemicals in water these days, we should just remove all of them and drink ultra-pure distilled water.
Oh please. Chlorine exists to make water immediately safe. This meets the basic need of not causing immediate harm and removes liability from the municipal supplier, so they can continue to supply the essential utility without the risk of litigation. Also, chlorine can be easily evaporated out of water.
Fluoride on the other hand has been added as a means of experimental dentistry. This is not the purpose of a municipal water supply, or at least I argue that it should not be.
Quote:
Seriously, can we stop with the "X is bad in large doses so it's bad at any dose" argument? It's intellectually dishonest.
What I'm saying is that X may potentially have deleterious effects, even in small (albeit repetetive, daily) doses. Therefore it should not be added to drinking water. Is this really so unreasonable?
--------------------
Throw out your gold teeth and see how they roll
The answer they reveal - life is unreal
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10625994 - 07/05/09 04:30 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Personalisms such as johnm, you are probably one of the dumbest people I've ever seen on here. (edit: well it's not just johnm) are not allowed in PS&P. This is your first warning.
I don't know what else to say
I'm not trying to be mean, it's just that in spite of all this evidence you complain about it not being good enough or not being done right.
Let's work through this.
I drink a lot of water
My tap water has around 1ppm give or take of fluoride.
That means that roughly 16 ounces of water would give you 0.5 mg of fluoride in the blood
It has been suggested in Japan that fluoride toxicity occurs at 2 mg/kg of body weight.
I weight 170 pounds. That's about 77 kg.
So to have the fluoride cause damage I would need 155 mg of fluoride in my blood.
So in order to achieve the toxic level I would need to drink 38 gallons of water. I drink two gallons a day. So in 19 days I reach toxic levels.
This is from drinking alone and doesn't include exposure from showering/bathing. This is also assuming you don't brush your teeth with the stuff.
You can see the smaller the person and the more water consumed, the greater the toxicity. Those in greatest danger are growing youngsters who run around and play/sweat.
Now you are probably thinking, jeez 19 days... it will all be gone by then. well yes, aside from accumulating in all the major organs, you will excrete fluoride in the urine (that is if you are healthy and your kidneys aren't busy with other stuff).
So where does the damage occur?
when all that fluoride is floating around for those couple of hours
you get....
reduction in nicotinic acetylcholine receptors
reduction in lipid content
impaired anti-oxidant defense systems
damage to the hippocampus
damage to the purkinje cells (GABAergenic brain cells)
increased uptake of aluminum
formation of beta-amyloid plaques (brain plaque)
exacerbation of lesions induced by iodine deficiency
accumulation of fluoride in the pineal gland
and what if my kidneys can't handle it all, then your body will surround it with water molecules and tuck it away to detox later, or never it just depends
so in one year you consume 20 times the toxic amount
do you not think that day after day after day of exposure is going to cause problems?
lets just say all the research is bullshit, lets say fluoride is totally benign, then what's the matter?
well your organs of detoxification will be busy with the fluoride when they could be handling other stuff like...
metabolic wastes
environmental toxins
the fluoride won't do any damage but it will keep organs tied up so other substances can do damage
but wise people know this is not the case
but if you still want to prove me wrong, have your child take just a little bit of sodium fluoride (aka RAT POISON) everyday. You can just slip it in their sippy cup. hey I heard it is good for their teeth. They will probably be alright, but one day you might look back and think could little timmy have been smarter/healthier? oh my show is back on mustn't fuss about things I can't change. After all, if the kid has developmental problems (whether they be physical/cognitive/social/spiritual) it's God's fault right? he sure works in mysterious ways....
sorry but I see so many people poison there kids and then think God is just challenging them. and people wonder why most of the world hates america....
RAINBOWS FOR EVERYONE!
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
Edited by deCypher (07/05/09 04:36 PM)
|
Viveka
Architecturer
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 3,253
Last seen: 10 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10626017 - 07/05/09 04:35 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
So you quote my post with the question I think is pertinent, and then you entirely ignore that and ramble about toothpaste, ethics, and public policy- never explaining what any of this has to do with whether or not fluoride causes problems in the recomended or generally used levels.
I answered your question. My basic point being that the "generally recommended or used level" of fluoride is an arbitrary amount and there are still potentially harmful effects at these levels.
How did they strike the ratio of fluoride to water where all harmful effects of the known toxic substance are eliminated while all dental benefits are maintained for all consuming persons? Lofl.
Quote:
Isn't no fluoride better, ethically?
I agree these levels are better than higher levels, but people who drink lots of water shouldn't be subjected to toxic effects just cuz the majority of the population won't have an issue with it- all the while being taxed and assessed money to support the delivery of water that they don't want.
What it comes down to, is I don't see how fluoridated water is at all neccesary and it shouldn't be forced on people without warning and consent- which is what's being done now.
Wait....so we agree?
--------------------
Throw out your gold teeth and see how they roll
The answer they reveal - life is unreal
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 55 minutes, 27 seconds
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10626033 - 07/05/09 04:38 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Personalisms are NOT allowed in this forum, and calling someone dumb won't actually prove your point. I am done debating with you because I have realized that it would lead nowhere, but it's just really funny to see people growing frustrated over the fact that they can't defend their cause and then they start calling other people dumb or other crap like that.
It is not up to anyone to prove that your statements are wrong, since this isn't how debate works. The burden of proof is on you, and until now you didn't do anything but go on tangents and accuse people of being dumb because they don't share the same ridiculous paranoia.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
 Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10626285 - 07/05/09 05:23 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Are you SURE that you're not debating anymore merely because you feel that you can not contend with the information that says sodium fluoride is harmful?
I think it is intellectually dishonest to wax philosophical about name-calling and straight up ignore the information presented.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10628121 - 07/06/09 12:28 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Viveka said:
What I'm saying is that X may potentially have deleterious effects, even in small (albeit repetetive, daily) doses. Therefore it should not be added to drinking water. Is this really so unreasonable?
No, it's not unreasonable if you back up your statement with evidence. Saying "fluoride is a poison (at high doses)!" is not evidence of anything in particular. If you think that fluoride is toxic at the concentration used in municipal water, fine, but please provide credible evidence.
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
So in order to achieve the toxic level I would need to drink 38 gallons of water. I drink two gallons a day. So in 19 days I reach toxic levels.
You've made a pretty major mistake there. What's the excretion rate?
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10629437 - 07/06/09 09:59 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:What's the excretion rate?
well this isn't black and white like doctors would have you believe. everyone's body is different. a quick google search says 5-6 hours, but this might be longer if you are elderly or sick. or you are full of other shit besides fluoride
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,331
Last seen: 23 hours, 57 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10629595 - 07/06/09 10:26 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
X amount per every 5-6 hours
What is X amount here?
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10629694 - 07/06/09 10:46 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Did you actually take some time to read what was being discussed, and how? Because from the way your reply sounds, it looks like you're negatively reacting to nothing, not to mention that your examples with the nazis and jews have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
ANYTHING, in huge quantities, can do harm to one's body, but what does this have to do with the level of fluoride from the toothpaste and water?
All the links quoted above are not peer reviewed, are incomplete, and only show a correlation between some illness and fluoride. Remember: correlation, not causation.
Why is it necessary to look for deeper evidence? Um,... probably because all the "studies" I've read from here and on my own don't actually prove that fluoride makes you stupid, especially the quantities found in toothpaste and water, which are added in the quantities necessary for having healthy teeth; the quantities of the added fluoride from the water resembles the naturally-occurring quantities of fluoride in other areas where people don't have a fluoride deficiency.
I do think that it is important to keep looking for evidence without getting attached to a paranoid idea, since something like this will only cloud one's reasoning making him unwilling to learn new things or accept the results of more valid studies.
even one part per million of a fluoride salt is psychoactive. The levels in toothpaste are far higher, and a small part will be absorbed via the mucus membranes under the tongue.
Having brittle, mottled teeth is not my definition of healthy. Can you describe how the fluoride salts in toothpaste (I've never seen calcium fluoride in toothpaste, why is this?) make teeth "healthy?"
The Nazi use of fluoridated water in concentration camps must not be overlooked. Concentration camps were all about efficency, IBM even being consulted and running the catergorisation machines.
The slave labour in concentration camps were run on the lowest possible budget. There was no need to ensure they had healthy teeth, especially for the condemned in death camps. Unadulterated water is cheaper than drugged water, so, there was a good reason for the Nazi's to drug their water. Efficency.
More efficent to have docile inmates and spend a little on sodium fluoride, than having inmates breaking out, boosting the morale of the other condemned, interfering with concentration camp operations and demoralising camp guards.
Before we go further, are we at least in agreement the fluoridation of concentration camp water was not because the nazi's cared about communist and jew dental hygene, but because it is a sedative?
--------------------
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10630455 - 07/06/09 12:52 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I agree with you visonary...
I started learning all this stuff because I would get high and then foods would suddenly disagree with me
like maybe ice cream with chocolate syrup and whipped cream everyday is not a good idea ya know?
same goes for tap water.......yuck
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10630561 - 07/06/09 01:11 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I started into this discussion with the thought that low fluoride levels did strengthen teeth. My main beef was the lack of research on side effects. However, my original thought has been thrown in doubt. I keep seeing professionals state that fluoride doesn't even live up to the original claims.
Dr. Hardy Limeback, B.Sc., Ph.D in Biochemistry, D.D.S.: ”One of the most obvious living experiments today, is a proof-positive comparison between any two Canadian cities. “Here in Toronto we’ve been fluoridating for 36 years. Yet Vancouver – which has never fluoridated -has a cavity rate lower than Toronto’s"
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,539
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10630580 - 07/06/09 01:14 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Too many variables here.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10630589 - 07/06/09 01:16 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Dr. Hardy Limeback, B.Sc., Ph.D in Biochemistry, D.D.S.: ”One of the most obvious living experiments today, is a proof-positive comparison between any two Canadian cities. “Here in Toronto we’ve been fluoridating for 36 years. Yet Vancouver – which has never fluoridated -has a cavity rate lower than Toronto’s"
Such information alone is completely useless without a vigorous analysis of the confounds. This lack of rigor is what makes us skeptics dismiss all these quotes/links. One link with rigor will do, hundreds without will not.
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10630825 - 07/06/09 02:07 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
There are other variables. I'm not offering proof, just stating that I'm skeptical of my original belief. It works both ways.
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10630830 - 07/06/09 02:08 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
It shouldnt even have been posted if your not offering it as proof or evidence, right?
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10630880 - 07/06/09 02:17 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
It is evidence, though obviously not what you are requesting. However, the opinion of a Dentist isn't "completely useless". Worth much more than my own opinion. I expect you to use your own discretion, and am not asking for any favors.
Finding a study in which all variables are accounted for, probably isn't going to happen... either in proving that fluoride is safe and effective, or in proving that it is un-safe, and/or ineffective.
I stated my reason when I posted the quote.
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10630923 - 07/06/09 02:27 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
The Nazi use of fluoridated water in concentration camps must not be overlooked. Concentration camps were all about efficency, IBM even being consulted and running the catergorisation machines.
The slave labour in concentration camps were run on the lowest possible budget. There was no need to ensure they had healthy teeth, especially for the condemned in death camps. Unadulterated water is cheaper than drugged water, so, there was a good reason for the Nazi's to drug their water. Efficency.
More efficent to have docile inmates and spend a little on sodium fluoride, than having inmates breaking out, boosting the morale of the other condemned, interfering with concentration camp operations and demoralising camp guards.
Before we go further, are we at least in agreement the fluoridation of concentration camp water was not because the nazi's cared about communist and jew dental hygene, but because it is a sedative?
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10631253 - 07/06/09 03:46 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I realize that some of you think that we need at least several decades worth of studies to know FOR SURE that fluoride has some bad sides effects but here's a little list of countries that have banned it's use in public water supplies....
http://www.fluoridation.com/c-country.htm
Yeah. I get it. "More studies are needed".
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10631309 - 07/06/09 03:54 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I'm not interested in who does and doesn't fluoridate. The argument for or against fluoridation should be made on its own merits.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10631352 - 07/06/09 04:01 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
I'm not interested in who does and doesn't fluoridate. The argument for or against fluoridation should be made on its own merits.
Sure, if entire countries have banned it there is certainly nothing to be concerned about.
How the fuck could you not be interested in who does or doesn't fluoridate water?
Does it not make sense to err on the side of caution when MANY other nations find the substance questionable?
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,539
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10631354 - 07/06/09 04:02 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
But if we banned it we would lose jobs and hurt the economy. What are you a communist?
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Icelander]
#10631374 - 07/06/09 04:05 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
That's pretty good.
No I am pretty far from being a communist. I advocate for free market economics.
I don't always agree with you, but you appear to have a functioning brain. Why don't you join me in the debates on monetary policy & economics?
I don't care what your viewpoint is, it would be healthy to bring in more perspectives......
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,539
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10631635 - 07/06/09 04:50 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Why don't you join me in the debates on monetary policy & economics?
Don't take this personally but I don't give a flying fuck about any of that shit.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Icelander]
#10631675 - 07/06/09 04:57 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Why don't you join me in the debates on monetary policy & economics?
Don't take this personally but I don't give a flying fuck about any of that shit.
You don't give a flying fuck about your treasure loosing value?
I hope you never have to eat those words.
--------------------
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Icelander]
#10632244 - 07/06/09 06:33 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Why don't you join me in the debates on monetary policy & economics?
Don't take this personally but I don't give a flying fuck about any of that shit.
I try to make it a personal rule not to take things personally....
I can understand your prejudice against economics. I thought it was all bullshit because all I was introduced to in school was Keynesian "economics".
When I was a wee lad I felt disturbed about the fact that money apparently decreased in buying power over time.
Austrian economics promotes freedom and prosperity, that's why I like it..... Very different from Keynesian insanity.
EDIT
I am accustomed to people getting pissed when I talk about the economic problems the world is facing soon. It's really great when it's a decent sized group because then the whole Orwellian group-think mob behavior comes out and they all collectively turn off their ability to reason...
Edited by Mr.Al (07/06/09 06:37 PM)
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10633324 - 07/06/09 10:09 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
I realize that some of you think that we need at least several decades worth of studies to know FOR SURE that fluoride has some bad sides effects but here's a little list of countries that have banned it's use in public water supplies....
http://www.fluoridation.com/c-country.htm
Yeah. I get it. "More studies are needed".
Who said that several decades of studies are needed? Who said we need to know with certainty that it is harmful?
Or could it be, shocker, that the fluoride gang is making up yet more bullshit? Just more dishonesty and more arguments to the person rather than too the issue.
If you want to argue with yourself you can do so without posting publicly- please consider doing so next time you want to argue against your own imagination of what your opponents' objections are.
Quote:
zouden said:
Good point. The counter-argument is that the government has an interest in the well-being of the populace, so it has the moral authority to enact public health laws (within reason). I think air quality regulations fall into this category. Reducing air pollution is a relatively simple move that increases the population's health.
In any case, air pollution harms people other than those who emit it- it invades public and private property, and constitutes a general harm to the populace. Fluoridation is manifestly dissimilar.
Carries are a personal problem and even abject neglect to one's teeth does not harm other people nor spread to the community. Moreover there is no reason fluoridation is needed, given how cheap it is. It is unnecesary and immoral.
This is not like vaccination where it may protect others.
Quote:
Similarly, adding fluoride to water is a relatively simple (and cost-effective) move that increases the population's health. As long as the side effects (fluorosis) are kept to a minimum then statistically the move makes sense.
How have you determined it statistically makes sense? What method have you used?
It comes down to the fact that the product is water, and they are adulterating it. The adulteration has nothing to do with the purpose served in furnishing water, is potentially harmful, is provided without consent or warning, and will never protect innocent members of the public in the way that vaccination may. It is simply the government exerting force on people and making them do what they've decided they should do- and then making people pay for it whether they want it or not. Meanwhile people are exposed to three times the adequate intake, without consent or cognizance of what's happening.
Quote:
Personal question: do you feel that you have suffered fluorosis as a result of your time drinking 2 gallons of water? I think that we're looking at a bell-curve of effects, so that drinking 10 litres of water puts you in the "at risk" category, but that's it.
I have symptoms of minor fluorosis, but I don't know if there are other possible explanations. I was taking about 3 times the recommended intake (per wikipedia) even at the conservative 1ppm levels (who knows how high I was actually exposed), and never was I or my family warned about what the government was forcing us to purchase.
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:johnm, you are probably one of the dumbest people I've ever seen on here. (edit: well it's not just johnm)
in spite of all this evidence you complain about it not being good enough or not being done right.
Where have I said this?
I said I've seen no evidence showing the serious harm suggested, nor evidence showing this is the intent of fluoridation.
Where is it? You keep running the mouth and rattling off your conclusions, but fail to show evidence. Just linkbombing away with no relevance or probative value to the links at all.
Quote:
So in 19 days I reach toxic levels.
Quote:
you get....
reduction in nicotinic acetylcholine receptors
reduction in lipid content
impaired anti-oxidant defense systems
damage to the hippocampus
damage to the purkinje cells (GABAergenic brain cells)
increased uptake of aluminum
formation of beta-amyloid plaques (brain plaque)
exacerbation of lesions induced by iodine deficiency
accumulation of fluoride in the pineal gland
Fantastic, more naked claims with no support whatsoever.
This is the same thing as saying "it's bad". At least that would have taken less time to read.
Is this some of the "evidence" you've referred to that people ignore or minimize? If we wanted your naked opinions we would have asked for them.
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10633527 - 07/06/09 10:45 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Varner JA, et al. (1998). Chronic administration of aluminum-fluoride and sodium-fluoride to rats in drinking water: alterations in neuronal and cerebrovascular integrity. Brain Research 784: 284-298
that's where I got it from
and the tests were done at 1ppm
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
the agony
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
danlennon3
LivingIsEasyWithEyesClosed.....
Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 16,088
Loc: usa
Last seen: 14 minutes, 48 seconds
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10633907 - 07/07/09 12:29 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
If it's never mentioned in the news, someone is usually hiding something
--------------------
"Psychedelics should be used not to escape reality, but to embrace it"
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10633908 - 07/07/09 12:30 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
That article is actually about how AlF is more toxic than NaF. In fact, they speculate that the negative effects observed in the NaF animals may actually be caused by the fluoride in the water combining with the aluminium in their food.
It's quite an interesting article. You should read it, rather than just citing it in the hope that it backs up your claims.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
Edited by zouden (07/07/09 01:41 AM)
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10633915 - 07/07/09 12:34 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
And where in that citation may I find whatever your claiming?
I did not see the problems you claim in the sodium fluoride group. (or are you claiming the aluminum flouride group is somehow relevant?)
Taking every conclusion by the author's as true, I didn't see the problems you claim.
I've asked previously that if you are to cite a paper that you actually allege some fact to be found within and cite to where it is found. As in all the other examples, in this paper I can not find your claims backed up, nor have you stated where to look.
Why does every citation from the fluoride group reveal a paper of questionable relevance? Is this one of the hundred cited to zouden previously?
By the way, I own the shroomery and am the president of the united states. See: Evans, D. A.; Fitch, D. M.; Smith, T. E.; Cee, V. J. Application of Complex Aldol Reactions to the Total Synthesis of Phorboxazole B. J. Am. Chem. Soc. 2000, 122, 10033-10046.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,539
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10634855 - 07/07/09 08:41 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Why don't you join me in the debates on monetary policy & economics?
Don't take this personally but I don't give a flying fuck about any of that shit.
You don't give a flying fuck about your treasure loosing value?
I hope you never have to eat those words.
NO I don't give a fuck about shit I have no control over. I'm too busy enjoying what I have today to worry much about tomorrow. Especially when I already know that tomorrow brings death.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,539
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10634873 - 07/07/09 08:45 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Why don't you join me in the debates on monetary policy & economics?
Don't take this personally but I don't give a flying fuck about any of that shit.
I try to make it a personal rule not to take things personally....
I can understand your prejudice against economics. I thought it was all bullshit because all I was introduced to in school was Keynesian "economics".
When I was a wee lad I felt disturbed about the fact that money apparently decreased in buying power over time.
Austrian economics promotes freedom and prosperity, that's why I like it..... Very different from Keynesian insanity.
EDIT
I am accustomed to people getting pissed when I talk about the economic problems the world is facing soon. It's really great when it's a decent sized group because then the whole Orwellian group-think mob behavior comes out and they all collectively turn off their ability to reason...
I'm glad the world is facing economic problems. I just hope they get a lot worse.
Does anyone ever stop to think about what happens when everything is based in ever broadening consumption of resources? This is a problem that will only find solution in collapse.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Icelander]
#10636893 - 07/07/09 03:24 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
What you don't see is that the obsessive consumer behavior is linked to the immoral monetary policy........
It probably is going to collapse though, government has become too big of a parasite for it's host (the economy) to survive.
Here's hoping the economy resurrects itself after the government dies...
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Icelander]
#10636945 - 07/07/09 03:35 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
In that case, do you have all your money in solid, actual tangible things, rather than some numbers in a bank database?
If it's the latter, then you do have control over your personal wealth. I'd suggest exchanging fiat currency for something of actual value.
--------------------
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10637003 - 07/07/09 03:45 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I see that this has become a general extreme-left discussion thread.
So far we've had mention of
- Chemtrails
- Fluoridation
- Aspartame
- Codex Alimentarius
- NWO
- 9/11
- Fractional reserve banking (though no mention of the Amero yet!)
Next: GM food, nuclear power, the US presidents are related to the British Crown, NASA never went to the moon, Obama is a Kenyan...
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10637094 - 07/07/09 03:58 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Instead of the divisive right/left paradigm thinking I would hope that we could agree that government is fucked up.
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10637383 - 07/07/09 05:03 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
I see that this has become a general extreme-left discussion thread.
What's extreme left?
And how is my objection to people being poisoned (against their will. If people consent to putting something in their body, good for them) politically motivated?
--------------------
|
C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 899
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10637593 - 07/07/09 05:44 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
----------------------------------------------
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10637747 - 07/07/09 06:14 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
In that case, do you have all your money in solid, actual tangible things, rather than some numbers in a bank database?
If it's the latter, then you do have control over your personal wealth. I'd suggest exchanging fiat currency for something of actual value.
Who the fuck stores their wealth in fiat currency? Thats not what its for. Nobody really keeps much more than a few months of emergency money in currency.
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10637802 - 07/07/09 06:25 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Qubit said:
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
In that case, do you have all your money in solid, actual tangible things, rather than some numbers in a bank database?
If it's the latter, then you do have control over your personal wealth. I'd suggest exchanging fiat currency for something of actual value.
Who the fuck stores their wealth in fiat currency? Thats not what its for. Nobody really keeps much more than a few months of emergency money in currency.
Huh? People I talk to think I'm nucking futs when I tell them that the creation of trillions (no clue how many exactly) of dollars will severely fuck up the purchasing power of the fiat. You see how many "Cash For Gold" commercials there are on T.V. these days....
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10639918 - 07/08/09 12:38 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
creation of trillions (no clue how many exactly) of dollars
If you have no clue, how do you know it's trillions?
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10640164 - 07/08/09 03:37 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
creation of trillions (no clue how many exactly) of dollars
If you have no clue, how do you know it's trillions?
The thing is, no one can know for sure how many trillions have been created, as the federal reserve refuses to disclose who they are giving the money to, or how much they are printing.
A google search for "federal reserve trillions" comes up with all sorts of figures, few of them agreeing on the same amount.
And hey, I still want an explination that my objection to non voluntary drugging is "extreme left", or politically motivated at all.
--------------------
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10640279 - 07/08/09 04:39 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
It's not politically motivated, but it's associated with the left. I consider myself left-wing, but I've realised that I'm not as far-left as my dad for example, mostly because I support nuclear power and genetic engineering etc
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10640597 - 07/08/09 07:16 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
It's not politically motivated, but it's associated with the left. I consider myself left-wing, but I've realised that I'm not as far-left as my dad for example, mostly because I support nuclear power and genetic engineering etc
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,539
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10640744 - 07/08/09 08:10 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
What you don't see is that the obsessive consumer behavior is linked to the immoral monetary policy........
I don't? I don't see that? Gee, I didn't know I didn't see that. I didn't know I didn't see that most likely before you were born. 
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Icelander]
#10643269 - 07/08/09 04:49 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
If you were born after 1913 you haven't seen the economy free from the central bank.
There will certainly be a collapse of the economy.
This isn't entirely bad as it will force people to be self-sufficient.
You sound like the kind of guy that likes to live in the boonies. Have you started a food forest yet?
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,539
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10646487 - 07/09/09 08:43 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
There will eventually be more than a collapse of the economy.
I've had a fair amount of wilderness survival training but find it to be of less importance to me than other things at this time in my life.
Here's a quote for you to ponder. "Survival is overrated"
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10647431 - 07/09/09 12:21 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
It's not politically motivated, but it's associated with the left. I consider myself left-wing, but I've realised that I'm not as far-left as my dad for example, mostly because I support nuclear power and genetic engineering etc
Eh, personally I think heat exchangers could give us all the power we'd ever need, and we wouldn't have to deal with a finite fissile fuel scource.
My family are farmers, I used to be dead keen on GM crops, and asked them about it. Turns out they won't use them, my great uncle tried some gm potatoes, but found they didn't yeild as much as his normal potatoes. Then I did more research on Monsanto, and how they started out.
Hey Zouden, can you explain to me why the Nazi's drugged the concentration camp water supplies with sodium fluoride?
--------------------
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Icelander]
#10647440 - 07/09/09 12:22 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Here's a quote for you to ponder. "Survival is overrated"
Sounds like suicidial idealation to me. Do you hold stock in that quote?
--------------------
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,361
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Icelander]
#10647490 - 07/09/09 12:31 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Here's a quote for you to ponder. "Survival is overrated"
Seeing as how only a survivor could make that statement...
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10648120 - 07/09/09 02:31 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Hey Zouden, can you explain to me why the Nazi's drugged the concentration camp water supplies with sodium fluoride?
I never claimed that they did. And I don't see how it has any relevance to fluoridating water at 1ppm for the purpose of reducing cavities.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Tibetan
California Raisin
Registered: 07/04/09
Posts: 100
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10648201 - 07/09/09 02:50 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Qubit said:
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
In that case, do you have all your money in solid, actual tangible things, rather than some numbers in a bank database?
If it's the latter, then you do have control over your personal wealth. I'd suggest exchanging fiat currency for something of actual value.
Who the fuck stores their wealth in fiat currency? Thats not what its for. Nobody really keeps much more than a few months of emergency money in currency.
Isn't any banking system or stock valued in fiat currency? If fiat currency is devalued your bank account is devalued.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,361
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10648210 - 07/09/09 02:52 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
We need a 'Non Sequitur Alert!' emoticon.
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Tibetan]
#10648225 - 07/09/09 02:54 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Yea, and who keeps their life saving in a bank account? Seriously, nobody does that. You keep 4 or 5 figures in your bank account as an emergency fund and store your wealth in tangible things like real estate, stocks and precious metals. Stocks are not fiat, they represent real wealth in the form of owning part of a company.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,361
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10648243 - 07/09/09 02:57 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Enron anyone?
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10648252 - 07/09/09 02:59 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Just because a stock can lose value doesn't make it fiat. All tangible forms of wealth can lose value.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,361
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10648266 - 07/09/09 03:02 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
It didn't 'lose value' per se; the books were totally cooked - in essence there was no value to begin with as Enron never had any assets.
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
Tibetan
California Raisin
Registered: 07/04/09
Posts: 100
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10648305 - 07/09/09 03:09 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Qubit said:
Yea, and who keeps their life saving in a bank account? Seriously, nobody does that. You keep 4 or 5 figures in your bank account as an emergency fund and store your wealth in tangible things like real estate, stocks and precious metals. Stocks are not fiat, they represent real wealth in the form of owning part of a company.
I mentioned stocks and I said they are valued in fiat money. I didn't say they are fiat. If the fiat currency in the country the company resides in collapses what are you going to own. You get one smelter.
|
Tibetan
California Raisin
Registered: 07/04/09
Posts: 100
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Tibetan]
#10648335 - 07/09/09 03:14 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I would rather have my money in a FDIC insured bank account after losing 50% in less than six months.
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Tibetan]
#10648343 - 07/09/09 03:15 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
All tangible wealth is 'valued' in fiat currency... Real estate, precious metals, stocks. And of course their values can go down, or up... thats why you diversify.
The fact remains fiat currency is just a temporary means of exchanging real wealth. All the arguments against it are made by people who cant seem to understand this simple fact. Fiat currency is not supposed to hold wealth, its just a temporary medium of exchange.
|
Tibetan
California Raisin
Registered: 07/04/09
Posts: 100
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10648384 - 07/09/09 03:23 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Plenty of people keep money in "cash", I am not sure what makes it a fact that you aren't supposed to do this.
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Tibetan]
#10648396 - 07/09/09 03:26 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Plenty of people keep money in "cash", I am not sure what makes it a fact that you aren't supposed to do this.
uhhh... because its fiat and depreciates - the whole reason you are against it (presumably). Again, people store a small amount of cash/currency for emergencies but real wealth is not stored in currency.
|
Tibetan
California Raisin
Registered: 07/04/09
Posts: 100
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10648427 - 07/09/09 03:32 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I didn't say I was against it and it doesn't always depreciate. Real wealth is kept whereever you want it. It may make more sense to do some things over other things but there is no "fact" that says you can't keep you money in "cash".
Edited by Tibetan (07/09/09 03:40 PM)
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Tibetan]
#10648451 - 07/09/09 03:39 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
My brother kept over a million dollars in "cash" and avoided the market collapse.
That is remarkable foolish, to not diversify a million dollars of wealth at all. (Also, the market hasnt collapsed)
Quote:
It may make more sense to do some things over other things but there is no "fact" that says you can't keep you money in "cash".
Its not a fact that you cant, its a fact that you shouldn't and the vast majority of people dont.
|
Tibetan
California Raisin
Registered: 07/04/09
Posts: 100
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10648480 - 07/09/09 03:44 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Fact that you shouldn't. 
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Tibetan]
#10648525 - 07/09/09 03:53 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Your brother kept a million dollars in cash? What, in a suitcase?
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Tibetan]
#10648533 - 07/09/09 03:54 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Look at the Weimar Republic, do you want to walk down the street with a wheel-barrow full of fiat currency in order to buy a loaf of bread?
Yeah, holding onto a million in fiat is the definition of FAIL.
|
Tibetan
California Raisin
Registered: 07/04/09
Posts: 100
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10648541 - 07/09/09 03:56 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Money market and bank accounts are considered "cash". He also owns rental houses and strip malls, so he was diversified. He pulled his money out of the market.
|
Viveka
Architecturer
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 3,253
Last seen: 10 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10649866 - 07/09/09 08:13 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Poster: zouden
Subject: Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Hey Zouden, can you explain to me why the Nazi's drugged the concentration camp water supplies with sodium fluoride?
I never claimed that they did. And I don't see how it has any relevance to fluoridating water at 1ppm for the purpose of reducing cavities.
I keep trying to think of a good analogy for water fluoridation.
Fluoride - It's known to be a highly toxic substance. Even dentists say don't swallow it, if you do call the poison control center immediately. It also has supposed dental benefits. And at some point someone decided to put in the drinking water at a level that has somehow been determined beyond any trace of a doubt to not be a detriment to health, while still retaining it's supposed dental benefits.
Just thinking out loud here. Someone help me think of a good analogy for this crazy concept!
--------------------
Throw out your gold teeth and see how they roll
The answer they reveal - life is unreal
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Viveka]
#10650015 - 07/09/09 08:44 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Are you asking why they acknowledge that it can be dangerous and still put it in water in small amounts?
Take water for example. Water is good for you, but if you drink too much water, you die.
--------------------
|
Viveka
Architecturer
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 3,253
Last seen: 10 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: learningtofly]
#10650108 - 07/09/09 08:57 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The purpose of drinking water is hydration. Not hedging your bets against cavities.
If fluoride was a benign substance, you could make a reasonable case for putting it in drinking water. However fluoride is toxic. Are you sure that even at 1ppm it's not going to have some deleterious effect in the long run? There's no way you really could be sure, right? Just like when water fluoridation was started there were no long term studies in place to prove beyond any doubt that it wasn't harmful in some way, but some dentists went ahead and convinced the municipality of Grand Rapids, MI to add some to the water to see if it would help reduce cavities.
I keep trying to think of a good analogy for this craziness but I'm just not finding it.
--------------------
Throw out your gold teeth and see how they roll
The answer they reveal - life is unreal
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Viveka]
#10650134 - 07/09/09 09:01 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Are you sure that even at 1ppm it's not going to have some deleterious effect in the long run? There's no way you really could be sure, right?
do you have evidence to the contrary? Questioning something is not an argument. You can question whether it really is safe, whether a certain test really really was accurate, but until you show me that it wasn't instead of playing a guessing game I will have to reserve judgment in your favor
How is what I gave not a good analogy?
Substance X in small quantities is shown to be beneficial. If you take too much of substance X then you die.
--------------------
Edited by learningtofly (07/09/09 09:02 PM)
|
Psilocybeingzz
Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 13 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10650151 - 07/09/09 09:04 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Qubit said:
Yea, and who keeps their life saving in a bank account? Seriously, nobody does that. You keep 4 or 5 figures in your bank account as an emergency fund and store your wealth in tangible things like real estate, stocks and precious metals. Stocks are not fiat, they represent real wealth in the form of owning part of a company.
Presently Pertinent,.....no?
|
Viveka
Architecturer
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 3,253
Last seen: 10 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: learningtofly]
#10650414 - 07/09/09 10:03 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
That's not an analogy, it's an overly general statement that does not address the principle I'm speaking of.
And sorry, sir, but the burden of proof lies on you since you are the one asserting that lacing drinking water with a toxic substance is a good idea. I am arguing in favor of avoiding harm. I don't have to prove that not putting fluoride in water is safe, it is self evident. You however, since you argue for adding a toxic substance to water, carry the burden of proof, understand?
--------------------
Throw out your gold teeth and see how they roll
The answer they reveal - life is unreal
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Viveka]
#10650486 - 07/09/09 10:14 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Nope, since we are currently doing it, the status quo is that it's fine. You've got the burden of proof to show me that we shouldn't be doing it.
--------------------
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Viveka]
#10650515 - 07/09/09 10:20 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
"the burden of proof lies on X since X is one asserting that lacing drinking water with a toxic substance is a good idea."
I tend to agree.
Quote:
And at some point someone decided to put in the drinking water at a level that has somehow been determined beyond any trace of a doubt to not be a detriment to health, while still retaining it's supposed dental benefits.
Just thinking out loud here. Someone help me think of a good analogy for this crazy concept!
Wait, it gets crazier! It hasn't been determined to be safe. They do it anyway!
"The American Medical Association is NOT prepared to state that no harm will be done to any person by water fluoridation. The AMA has not carried out any research work, either long-term or short-term, regarding the possibility of any side effects." - Dr. Flanagan, Assistant Director of Environmental Health, American Medical Association.
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
Viveka
Architecturer
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 3,253
Last seen: 10 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: learningtofly]
#10650811 - 07/09/09 11:14 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Nope, since we are currently doing it, the status quo is that it's fine.
That's a major cop out and you know it. The status quo is also that prohibition of certain drugs and preemptive war and monoculture food production and prescribing amphetamines to children for dubious diagnoses and about 10,000 other insane policies are fine. That doesn't mean they are reasonable or just or good for anyone.
If your best answer is that, "because we do it, it's ok", you really have no argument whatsoever to support the practice.
An analogy in this case would be for you to go out into the street and punch an old woman in the face. A bystander could say "Hey, that's wrong!" and you could say, "Nope, since I'm currently doing it, the status quo is that it's fine".
--------------------
Throw out your gold teeth and see how they roll
The answer they reveal - life is unreal
|
Psilocybeingzz
Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 13 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Viveka]
#10650902 - 07/09/09 11:32 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Excellent post!
Learning to Fly, your rebuttal?
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Viveka]
#10650903 - 07/09/09 11:32 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
It's not a cop-out dude. You tried to hit me with burden of proof so I'm just doing it back (correctly)
See: Affirmative and Opposition
The status-quo is that we are currently doing it. Therefore, anything new has the burden of proof to show that we shouldn't. I never said anything regarding the drug war, or anything regarding whether it is good or bad.
I like how you formulate a strawman argument and then make up an obviously shitty conclusion as well.
That is a horrible analogy, not to mention that it doesn't even make sense. The status quo would be that assault/battery is wrong. Therefore if I punched a woman it would be wrong. Now, the bystander could attempt to argue that it is in fact alright.
--------------------
Edited by learningtofly (07/09/09 11:34 PM)
|
Viveka
Architecturer
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 3,253
Last seen: 10 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: learningtofly]
#10651048 - 07/10/09 12:10 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
If anything, the burden of proof was shirked by the parties responsible for fluoridating the water supply when they went ahead and initially altered the status quo which was: a municipal water supply not purposely laced with fluoride. They never met the burden of proof so I am asking those, like you, who share their values, to pick up their slack. Once you do that, I'll take my turn, and provide my proof to support my assertion that, once again, the status quo should be changed.
And it is a cop out when you don't address the fundamental point, but instead put the focus on the technical mechanics of an argument.
The fundamental argument is not about the logistics of arguing, it's about whether or not fluoridating public water supplies is a practice certain to not cause harm.
Quote:
I never said anything regarding the drug war, or anything regarding whether it is good or bad.
So do you have a position on whether or not the fluoridation of drinking water is a practice with the potential to cause harm or are you just here to technically critique arguments?
--------------------
Throw out your gold teeth and see how they roll
The answer they reveal - life is unreal
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10651538 - 07/10/09 05:00 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Hey Zouden, can you explain to me why the Nazi's drugged the concentration camp water supplies with sodium fluoride?
I never claimed that they did. And I don't see how it has any relevance to fluoridating water at 1ppm for the purpose of reducing cavities.
They did. Just ask William Shirer (the rise and fall of the third reich) or IG Farben.
Now, the Nazi's drugged the inmates water. What was the purpose of this?
--------------------
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Viveka]
#10651642 - 07/10/09 06:22 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Now, the Nazi's drugged the inmates water. What was the purpose of this?
You obviously know the answer, so why are you asking me?
Are you going to explain how this is relevant?
Quote:
Viveka said:
I keep trying to think of a good analogy for water fluoridation.
Fluoride - It's known to be a highly toxic substance. Even dentists say don't swallow it, if you do call the poison control center immediately. It also has supposed dental benefits. And at some point someone decided to put in the drinking water at a level that has somehow been determined beyond any trace of a doubt to not be a detriment to health, while still retaining it's supposed dental benefits.
Just thinking out loud here. Someone help me think of a good analogy for this crazy concept!
Why do you need an analogy? The situation is pretty clear as it is.
Let me ask you this: would you willingly take a known hepatotoxin? A chemical that has been proven to destroy livers. Would you take it? No? Not even when you have a headache?
It's pointless talking about toxicity without talking about doses.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10652583 - 07/10/09 10:57 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
It's pointless talking about toxicity without talking about doses.
You've said that so many times, and they just keep ignoring it...
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,539
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10652592 - 07/10/09 10:58 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I like lots of doses.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10653999 - 07/10/09 03:51 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
Now, the Nazi's drugged the inmates water. What was the purpose of this?
You obviously know the answer, so why are you asking me?
Are you going to explain how this is relevant?
Quote:
Viveka said:
I keep trying to think of a good analogy for water fluoridation.
Fluoride - It's known to be a highly toxic substance. Even dentists say don't swallow it, if you do call the poison control center immediately. It also has supposed dental benefits. And at some point someone decided to put in the drinking water at a level that has somehow been determined beyond any trace of a doubt to not be a detriment to health, while still retaining it's supposed dental benefits.
Just thinking out loud here. Someone help me think of a good analogy for this crazy concept!
Why do you need an analogy? The situation is pretty clear as it is.
Let me ask you this: would you willingly take a known hepatotoxin? A chemical that has been proven to destroy livers. Would you take it? No? Not even when you have a headache?
It's pointless talking about toxicity without talking about doses.
Why don't you nibble on just a little bit of rat poison and get back to me on that?
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Icelander]
#10654007 - 07/10/09 03:53 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
I like lots of doses.
I've eaten a little over a gram of D.M.T. 20 minutes after ingesting rue...
I like doses too!
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10654133 - 07/10/09 04:32 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Why don't you nibble on just a little bit of rat poison and get back to me on that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin
Thank you for bring up an example which illustrates my point perfectly.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10654162 - 07/10/09 04:38 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
Why don't you nibble on just a little bit of rat poison and get back to me on that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin
Thank you for bring up an example which illustrates my point perfectly.
I was actually thinking about sodium fluoride.
http://writerspiece.blogspot.com/2007/08/fluoride-efficient-rat-poison.htm
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10654184 - 07/10/09 04:41 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Who's going to ingest 10g of sodium flouride?
--------------------
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: learningtofly]
#10654197 - 07/10/09 04:43 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
learningtofly said:
Who's going to ingest 10g of sodium flouride?
I don't see how small doses can be good for the "smart making".
Why do any of you think they put a warning label on the toothpaste telling you to prevent kids from eating it?
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10654205 - 07/10/09 04:45 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Because at high levels it's dangerous. Duh. What are you trying to get at?
--------------------
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10654311 - 07/10/09 05:12 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
Why don't you nibble on just a little bit of rat poison and get back to me on that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin
Thank you for bring up an example which illustrates my point perfectly.
I was actually thinking about sodium fluoride.
http://writerspiece.blogspot.com/2007/08/fluoride-efficient-rat-poison.htm
What do you think about my link? Warfarin is both a rat poison (at high doses) and a treatment for heart disease and stroke (at low doses).
Quote:
I don't see how small doses can be good for the "smart making".
See above.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10654326 - 07/10/09 05:14 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Zoudan how dare you bring up the fact that things become dangerous once they are in a high concentration but are okay at low ones. that totally ruins many arguments.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,539
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10654514 - 07/10/09 06:20 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
I like lots of doses.
I've eaten a little over a gram of D.M.T. 20 minutes after ingesting rue...
I like doses too!
You're not bragging are you?
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
 Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Icelander]
#10654630 - 07/10/09 06:49 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Probably. I haven't gone that high since because I don't know if that was dangerous or not. As I was crawling towards the toilet, after hurling all over the floor, I was somewhat convinced that I was dying. I felt alright after I was done puking. My best friend later told me that he was "swimming through my vomit" as he was attempting to clean it up and it was strangely not unpleasant. My body physically vibrated for some time and limbs liked to multiply as they moved. I did not attempt to "negotiate with" stairs in spite of my friends numerous requests.... Animals from Talking Heads was playing somewhere around the peak, first time my best friend and I heard it, we were laughing hysterically....
In my defense, I was tripping from second hand smoke while I was dosing. The syrian rue had made even the second hand smoke very active. I was having a hard time remembering how much I had eaten and just kept spoon feeding myself from a cereal bowl. Definitely more than a gram.
Looking back, it was the most intensely enjoyable New Year's spent in my life thus far!
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: learningtofly]
#10654640 - 07/10/09 06:52 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Does sodium fluoride become a noo-tropic in small doses?
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 19 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10654650 - 07/10/09 06:53 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Does sodium fluoride become a noo-tropic in small doses?
I don't know. What does that have to do with anything?
--------------------
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: learningtofly]
#10654669 - 07/10/09 06:59 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
(That question was sort of rhetorical.)
There is a lot of controversy surrounding fluoride in the water supply. Regardless of whether it is detrimental (many countries have banned it) or not it should not be forced on people that do not want it. People who do want it can go buy it because it is very cheap.
That's the only solution I see thus far.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10654900 - 07/10/09 08:00 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
or not it should not be forced on people that do not want it.
This (the moral argument) is far more interesting than what's been discussed so far. Most anti-fluoride people try and argue it from a scientific perspective, which is never going to be successful because the science doesn't agree with them. But the ethical issues surrounding medicating the water supply is more interesting, and I think there's good arguments to be made on both sides.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Viveka
Architecturer
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 3,253
Last seen: 10 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10655312 - 07/10/09 09:36 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Let me ask you this: would you willingly take a known hepatotoxin? A chemical that has been proven to destroy livers. Would you take it? No? Not even when you have a headache?
I may choose to take it on my own accord if I did have a headache. I wouldn't take it if I didn't have a headache and I certainly wouldn't be keen on local government putting it in the water supply as an experiment in municipal headache prevention. Drinking water should not be treated as a medium for medical experiments that may or may not have ill effects, that's the point.
Quote:
It's pointless talking about toxicity without talking about doses.
Since you argue that the water I drink should have fluoride added to it, please provide the evidence that removes any doubt that this will not cause harm in some way. Oh wait, you couldn't show me that evidence even if you wanted to because it doesn't exist.
--------------------
Throw out your gold teeth and see how they roll
The answer they reveal - life is unreal
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Viveka]
#10656015 - 07/11/09 12:48 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I may choose to take it on my own accord if I did have a headache.
But why would you, when it's a chemical proven to destroy your liver? Or do you agree that in smaller doses it's actually beneficial? Good. Then maybe we are getting somewhere.
Quote:
please provide the evidence that removes any doubt that this will not cause harm in some way.
You ask for the impossible. I never said fluoridating water would not cause adverse effects. My argument is that fluoridation has benefits which outweigh the negatives.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10656947 - 07/11/09 07:41 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Personally, I would be concerned about a very gradual increase in the fluoride concentration in the water supply...
What if government was concerned about the possibility of civil unrest and decided to suddenly increase dosage significantly in order to quell the anger of the masses?
The potential for it's misuse exists.
It has been used for such purposes before and only fools turn a blind eye to the lessons of history!
|
Viveka
Architecturer
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 3,253
Last seen: 10 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10658461 - 07/11/09 01:13 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
But why would you, when it's a chemical proven to destroy your liver? Or do you agree that in smaller doses it's actually beneficial? Good. Then maybe we are getting somewhere.
No, not beneficial. In fact it would be preferable to avoid taking it if possible. Taking it would be a compromise. I notice you didn't really address the concept of choice. When the water supply is fluoridated, I often have no choice but to consume fluoride.
Quote:
You ask for the impossible. I never said fluoridating water would not cause adverse effects. My argument is that fluoridation has benefits which outweigh the negatives.
So you think fluoride should be added to the water and I think that it should not. My camp argues in favor of avoiding potential harm, your camp is not really concerned with potentially causing harm because you don't believe that potential harm outweighs the benefits of reducing cavities. This is madness for at least two reasons, one: fluoride is readily and cheaply available in other very common sources and two: you just admitted it is impossible to prove that fluoride at 1-5ppm, as it is found in adulterated drinking water, does not cause harm.
--------------------
Throw out your gold teeth and see how they roll
The answer they reveal - life is unreal
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10658662 - 07/11/09 02:01 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
Why don't you nibble on just a little bit of rat poison and get back to me on that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin
Thank you for bring up an example which illustrates my point perfectly.
I said that pages back, and he ignores it.
He just pops in with the same fallacy over and over- totally ridiculous at this point. Its not even a conversation when the fallacious reasoning is disputed, no rebuttal is provided, and then he pops back in using the same dishonest bullshit time and time again.
"zoude
Quote:
Viveka said:
Quote:
It's pointless talking about toxicity without talking about doses.
Since you argue that the water I drink should have fluoride added to it, please provide the evidence that removes any doubt that this will not cause harm in some way. Oh wait, you couldn't show me that evidence even if you wanted to because it doesn't exist.
Oh great, more bullshit.
Strawmen for everyone.
Do you really not understand the difference between saying the fluroide conspirac
|
Viveka
Architecturer
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 3,253
Last seen: 10 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10658971 - 07/11/09 03:01 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Oh great, more bullshit.
Strawmen for everyone.
Do you really not understand the difference between saying the fluroide conspiracy/poison people make crap argumetns and don't have evidence to support their more wild claims, and saying fluoride is harmless?
Or do you understand you've totally changed the issue and are just doing it cuz your dishonest, and prefer to beat up on straw men since you've apparently got nothing to say legitimately.
Instead of attacking me personally, shouting "STRAWMAN!" over and over again and rambling rather incoherently, please focus your criticism a little bit then maybe I can respond to whatever it is you're driving at. What was your question? It didn't really make any sense.
--------------------
Throw out your gold teeth and see how they roll
The answer they reveal - life is unreal
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10659114 - 07/11/09 03:31 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
Now, the Nazi's drugged the inmates water. What was the purpose of this?
You obviously know the answer, so why are you asking me?
Are you going to explain how this is relevant?
All I want to know is your opinion on why the nazi and soviet concentration camps/gulags had fluoridated water.
--------------------
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10659216 - 07/11/09 03:50 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
All he wants to know is why thats relevant.
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10659395 - 07/11/09 04:21 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
Now, the Nazi's drugged the inmates water. What was the purpose of this?
You obviously know the answer, so why are you asking me?
Are you going to explain how this is relevant?
All I want to know is your opinion on why the nazi and soviet concentration camps/gulags had fluoridated water.
I share zouden and diecommie's confusion as to the relevance.
As another issue, could you please cite your source for the fact that the nazis and the soviets fluoridated their concentration camps, and the manner in which they did it?
I hear this mentioned in every one of these discussions, but haven't seen it cited yet, if you know of a reliable source online that would be great, but if not, then whatever other reliable source you could cite would be great.
Kinda curious about how this got started in both societies- though both the nazi's and russian's/soviet's were pretty well known for putting bullshit politics above science and ignoring ethics or reason, so its not like its hard to believe. (their eugenics programs were ridiculous and scientifically stupid, but they persisted anyways)
Quote:
Viveka said:
Quote:
Oh great, more bullshit.
Strawmen for everyone.
Do you really not understand the difference between saying the fluroide conspiracy/poison people make crap argumetns and don't have evidence to support their more wild claims, and saying fluoride is harmless?
Or do you understand you've totally changed the issue and are just doing it cuz your dishonest, and prefer to beat up on straw men since you've apparently got nothing to say legitimately.
Instead of attacking me personally, shouting "STRAWMAN!" over and over again and rambling rather incoherently, please focus your criticism a little bit then maybe I can respond to whatever it is you're driving at. What was your question? It didn't really make any sense.
How have I attacked you personally? I don't know you, and wouldn't presume to say anything about you beyond the reasoning and implicit tennants of your arguments you've made here.
Saying your argument is a straw man is not a personal attack, it is a shorthand refutation by reference. Instead of showing how zouden believes flouride is able to be demonstrated as safe beyond a doubt, or what relevance that has to his argument, you just skip all that and ask him to demonstrate such.
Given that you've not shown how his argument reduces to the claim you ask him to prove, nor shown that he made such claim, nor that such claim is at all relevant to his position, you're argument was fallacious- attacking a self-made position rather than that which zouden actually advanced.
My question was rhetorical, but since you ask: Do you not understand the difference between statement A arguing the fluroide haters' arguments and claims are fallacious and unsupportable/irrelevant and statement B (which you implicitly assign to zouden) that fluoride is demonstrably harmless?
Criticizing an argument or claim is not an endorsement of any particular alternate claim- much less an alternate claim you seem to have wholly constructed for ease of defeat.
|
Viveka
Architecturer
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 3,253
Last seen: 10 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10659670 - 07/11/09 05:13 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
How have I attacked you personally?
"Oh great, more bullshit."
"Strawmen for everyone."
"...just doing it cuz your dishonest..."
"...you've apparently got nothing to say legitimately..."
Ok, you didn't attack me "personally" but your reply was peppered with these attack statements which do nothing to advance your argument or refute mine.
Quote:
Saying your argument is a straw man is not a personal attack, it is a shorthand refutation by reference.
LOL. Shorthand refutation by reference, huh? Fancy!
Quote:
Instead of showing how zouden believes fluoride is able to be demonstrated as safe beyond a doubt, or what relevance that has to his argument, you just skip all that and ask him to demonstrate such.
Given that you've not shown how his argument reduces to the claim you ask him to prove, nor shown that he made such claim, nor that such claim is at all relevant to his position, you're argument was fallacious- attacking a self-made position rather than that which zouden actually advanced.
Here's what I said:
"Since you argue that the water I drink should have fluoride added to it, please provide the evidence that removes any doubt that this will not cause harm in some way. Oh wait, you couldn't show me that evidence even if you wanted to because it doesn't exist."
I never asserted I know what zouden believes about the potential of fluoridated water to cause harm, I asserted that he believes water fluoridation is a good and legitimate practice, which he does. It should be clear to anyone not out to simply nitpick the technical mechanics of argument protocol that the reason I made the request for evidence following my restatement of his position on water fluoridation is that if I'm going to have no choice but to drink water that has been purposefully laced with a substance, I want to see the evidence that the substance will not cause harm. It's a very reasonable position and one that you apparently agree with yet you somehow find a way to refute my position, even though it agrees with yours. What the hell?
And technically, his position was that he believes the possible negative of water fluoridation outweigh the benefit of reducing cavities (How thoughtful of him! His dentist would be proud.)so yes, my asking him to show the evidence that fluoridated water causes no harm did not follow logically from his position. Consider my technically sloppy reply to him a "shorthand refutation by oversimplification", if that suits you, of the entire practice of water fluoridation, based on the fact that the potential harm of drinking fluoridated water cannot be calculated.
Quote:
Do you not understand the difference between statement A arguing the fluroide haters' arguments and claims are fallacious and unsupportable/irrelevant and statement B (which you implicitly assign to zouden) that fluoride is demonstrably harmless?
Sure I understand the difference. My point is that if you can't demonstrate that water fluoridation is harmless, how can you legitimately support the practice?
Quote:
Criticizing an argument or claim is not an endorsement of any particular alternate claim- much less an alternate claim you seem to have wholly constructed for ease of defeat.
I can't keep track of everyone's complex positions in a thread like this. And as I said, I never asserted that zouden believed water fluoridation was safe beyond doubt. Instead, I challenged him to prove it since he asserted the water I drink should be laced with fluoride. Why is it not reasonable to expect that such evidence be provided by anyone asserting that the water I drink should be laced with fluoride?
--------------------
Throw out your gold teeth and see how they roll
The answer they reveal - life is unreal
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10659703 - 07/11/09 05:20 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
johnm214 said:
What does this have to do with forcing people to pay for flurodiated water and the infrastructure supporting it, to be delivered to their home without any infromed consent or even notice that it is occuring?
You seem to just implicitly accept that if the benifits outweight the negatives that people should be forced to pay and accept the governemnt's imposition of force- its the only way your response makes any sense.
Do you really believe this? How do you define the benefits and negatives? Do you ignore the value of liberty?
I've seen no discussion showing forced fluroridation's benifits outweight the negatives, so I don't understand your claims.
Actually, I have seen a discussion showing how the benefits outweigh the negatives. It goes something like this:
-it reduces cavities
-reducing cavities reduces dental costs, freeing up money to be spent on more productive things
-fluoridating water, including infrastructure, is extremely cheap
-therefore, fluoridating water saves money as well as improving the population's health
-if done correctly, adverse effects can be extremely minimal
-the government already puts things in the water that can have adverse effects on some people, such as chlorine, so there is precedent
-since the government is elected by the people, water fluoridation is, by extension, a service provided by the people for the people.
I think the last point answers the big moral question. If "the people" support fluoridation, then you can't really stop them (except through the normal democratic means) so it's tyranny of the majority, yes, but that happens all the time in our society. Fluoridation is nothing special in that regard.
As I said earlier, the moral question about fluoridation is the only one where both sides have good arguments to make (unlike the scientific question, where only one side has good arguments).
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10659753 - 07/11/09 05:30 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Personally, I would be concerned about a very gradual increase in the fluoride concentration in the water supply...
What if government was concerned about the possibility of civil unrest and decided to suddenly increase dosage significantly in order to quell the anger of the masses?
The potential for it's misuse exists.
It has been used for such purposes before and only fools turn a blind eye to the lessons of history!
Dude, they could do that anyway. If the government wanted to sedate the population, do you really think they'd be stopped by "not having a fluoridation machine installed"? Besides, there's better sedatives they can use these days compared to the 1940s. Or heck, they could drop LSD into the water, that'd stop any organised uprising.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Viveka]
#10660194 - 07/11/09 07:09 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Toxicity is one of the most controversial scientific claims.
Theoretically, I find that there is an overwhelming sense of redundancy in its consideration. As it has been stated, "toxicity" is merely proportional to human existence, right?. So it is that the premise of science is also intimately considered - that is, as a relationship between man and natural substance.
Does mankind's nostalgia for unity consider toxicity by any other manner?
For instance, Arsenic is toxic, and toxicity is characterized by arsenic along with all the others.
So between man and nature, our science, how can we be sure that essential claims of "toxicity" are not masquerading as substantial, such as how we would refer literally to "arsenic"?
It is apparently considered like any other graspable concept of nature, as sensual...and possibly hypnotic. That nostalgia for unity between man and nature is met by a (redundantly - pure) method. He utilizes his meditations singly, by"method", characterizing the particular sense of intimacy one may be aware of in these considerations.
--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: daytripper23]
#10660314 - 07/11/09 07:27 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
What on earth are you talking about?
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: daytripper23]
#10660316 - 07/11/09 07:27 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
What are you saying? What is your point?
I don't understand....
We measure toxicity in something by doing an experiment. What's so tought about that? If its a human it gets more difficult, we may have to observe or make inferences, but what does this have to do with the philosophical considerations your making (which I don't fully understand anyways)?
From what I understand of your post, it seems that your making this more complicated than it need be.
|
daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10660475 - 07/11/09 07:53 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: daytripper23]
#10660498 - 07/11/09 07:56 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
A still from Dr Strangelove does nothing to explain nonsense like this:
Quote:
So between man and nature, our science, how can we be sure that essential claims of "toxicity" are not masquerading as substantial, such as how we would refer literally to "arsenic"?
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10661267 - 07/11/09 11:39 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Let me draw a parallel:
Much like "nonsense" is in your usage, toxicity is an essential, or value based claim that is dependent on a particular disposition of the human organism - er that is, subjective!
Yes I am saying that toxicity is ultimately subjective.
To say it is a matter of dosage is just a diversion ( a redundant appeal to substance) between us and the truly meaningful root of so-called "toxicity".
That a substance which gets you high is considered "toxic", is no more subjective a claim than that a substance which causes death in certain doses is toxic. We know this because there is a body of science that backs both sorts of claims through the very same method and joint institution. As "scientific", these claims are derived by the very same manner and method.
But in the end, marijuana may be medicine for the mind, just as a lethal dose of arsenic may be considered medicine for the being. "To be or not to be" is even well considered a subjective proposition. We indeed have the choice, and this absurd reality is not contradicted by any valid claims for life or death. That is personal well being.
Practically speaking, I may well appreciate the institution of science for bluntly informing me that arsenic and many similar substances are essentially toxic, but in many other cases, I don't appreciate this leap. This is why the previous absurd premise is necessary.
Whether anything is of particular dosage or not, our absurdity "toxic" stands as an essential quality of man just as much as it does of substance, because it is found on that disjunctive relationship between man and nature. That is in other words, respecting the limitations of knowledge founded on "naturalism".
So when we observe the essential seeping into substantial as it inevitably will, (such that we may happily consider substances to our practical or economic benefit) it is hoped that this is respected as the subjective consideration it truly is.
With any substance, it is hoped that I choose what I imbibe whether it is objectively "good or bad" for me. Again, there is nothing wrong with this consideration, and in fact, it is necessary to live and make decisions. But good and bad to my well being are subjective considerations, whether the objective situation is a slow and painful death, or turning into a hippy.
So although it is agreeably pertinent to such an essential claim, it matters nothing to the substance that there are subsequently degrees and dosages measuring and determining this essence - because we all know that in a consideration of substance (again by the absurd disjunctive premises of naturalism) they are just as apparently measuring man's reaction as the substance that brings it:
That is toxicity in essence, while substance stands as Spinoza had it, or as Kant's further elaboration as ding an sich - the unknowable.
So, arsenic is substantial
Toxicity is essential.
Clear?
--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: daytripper23]
#10661353 - 07/12/09 12:08 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Nice post. Except, you confuse dosage with character. My opinion is that certain substances can respected and enjoyed, because they are good. Too much of a good thing is different than a little bit of a bad thing. Certain substances are not only not needed, but not wanted by the human body.
The new ghetto way to get high is to deposit some crap in a jar, and let it sit in the sun for a couple hours... then sniff the fumes. It's free. What more could a child of pity want?
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10661435 - 07/12/09 12:40 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
No, that was just my point...
Lemme pull a trick from your book:
I was saying that while the notion of "dosage" appeals to substance on the pretense of its certain volume; as in a dose (n) of substance X, I agree that the essence or character of X (adj) is what is being described by "toxic", which is derived from a person's opinionated reaction to a substance... and so that opinion should take precedence
Sound familiar?
--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: daytripper23]
#10661525 - 07/12/09 01:38 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Yes I am saying that toxicity is ultimately subjective.
Please explain how LD50 is subjective.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10661613 - 07/12/09 02:38 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
To the extent that LD50 a it is considered as either adverse (toxic) or beneficial (medicinal) to the organism, it is subjective.
I specifically addressed lethal doses in my previous response. Like I said, it is easy to assume that lethal dose is essentially/universally adverse or toxic to our organism, but compare this to less extreme examples, like "intoxicating" plants or drugs, where what is adverse and beneficial is quite subject to debate.
Just as I may call the food and water I consume as beneficial for my body, I may consider the weed I smoke beneficial for the mind. I may even consider LD50 as beneficial for the despair of my basic condition if I am not satisfied with life. There is nothing necessarily "adverse" about it.
On the one hand you may find my claims absurd, but the alternative approach is clearly responsible for the demonization of certain substances. This so called "naturalistic" paradigm is ultimately responsible for the classification of psychedelics as well as all substances, is it not?
Google marijuana and toxic, and you will get countless contradicting claims from both sides of the fence, all apparently backed by science.
For instance, some say marijuana and other psychedelics are medicinally or therapeutically beneficial, and some say they simply are not. Even more ridiculous, many say that herbs that have been used for thousands of years "require more research", while the same body of science pumps out new pharmaceuticals every 5 years.
This is why it makes more sense that solely the individual considers what is adverse or beneficial to well being.
--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: daytripper23]
#10661750 - 07/12/09 04:39 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Just as I may call the food and water I consume as beneficial for my body, I may consider the weed I smoke beneficial for the mind. I may even consider LD50 as beneficial for the despair of my basic condition if I am not satisfied with life. There is nothing necessarily "adverse" about it.
Yes but it's still lethal. There's nothing subjective about a certain dose of a substance being enough to kill 50% of those who take it. It will do that regardless of if you think it's beneficial or not.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10661776 - 07/12/09 04:57 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
Now, the Nazi's drugged the inmates water. What was the purpose of this?
You obviously know the answer, so why are you asking me?
Are you going to explain how this is relevant?
All I want to know is your opinion on why the nazi and soviet concentration camps/gulags had fluoridated water.
I share zouden and diecommie's confusion as to the relevance.
As another issue, could you please cite your source for the fact that the nazis and the soviets fluoridated their concentration camps, and the manner in which they did it?
I hear this mentioned in every one of these discussions, but haven't seen it cited yet, if you know of a reliable source online that would be great, but if not, then whatever other reliable source you could cite would be great.
Kinda curious about how this got started in both societies- though both the nazi's and russian's/soviet's were pretty well known for putting bullshit politics above science and ignoring ethics or reason, so its not like its hard to believe. (their eugenics programs were ridiculous and scientifically stupid, but they persisted anyways)
You must have overlooked me posting this before, but I don't mind copying the information again. Eventually Zouden has to admit that the Nazi's were not concerned with inmates dental health (if they did, they could have given them toothbrushes, far safer and cheaper) but were concerned about them breaking out of the camps.
http://www.greaterthings.com/Lexicon/F/Fluoride.htm
Quote:
Concerning the 'practice' of putting sodium fluoride into drinking water, where did this insanity begin and WHO tried it first? From personal research, the very first occurrence of purposefully putting sodium fluoride into drinking water was in the German ghettos and in Nazi Germany's infamous prison camps. The Gestapo you see had little concern about sodium fluoride's 'supposed' effect on children's teeth; instead, their reason for mass-medicating water with sodium fluoride was to STERILIZE HUMANS and force the people in their concentration camps into calm, bovine, submission. (See for reference: "The Crime and Punishment of I.G. Farben" written by Joseph Borkin.) Kind of shocking isn't it folks!! Ah, but it gets even better.
The soviets adopted this drug for their own gulags
http://www.textbookleague.org/86fluor.htm
Quote:
In either case, the conspiracy must be exposed -- and for that purpose, the cranks have assembled a great array of pseudoscientific and pseudohistorical horror stories. Do you know that the Nazis administered a nameless fluoride to prisoners in concentration camps, to "render the prisoners docile and inhibit the questioning of authority"? Do you know that the Soviet Union imported fluorides from the United States, during the 1940s, and used the fluorides to "maintain subservience" among inmates of the GULAG prisons? Do you know that aluminum companies are big players in the fluoridation conspiracy, because they must dispose of countless tons of waste fluorides generated during the smelting of bauxite? Do you know that the fluoride ion induces tumors, stillbirths, genetic damage, dermatitis, nervous disorders and endocrine afflictions (among many other things), and that these effects are independent of the fluoride's concentration?
It is easy to laugh at such stories, but we have to view them seriously, for a moment, because some of them appear in Holt, Rinehart and Winston's Modern Chemistry, a high-school textbook that is the subject of two reviews in this issue of TTL. Both of our reviewers infer (correctly, I think) that Holt is pandering to the anti-fluoridation zealots by disseminating and dignifying, though not actually endorsing, some of their claims.
Really, if you want to put fluoride, arsenic, cowshit, whatever into your body, go ahead and do it. Just don't force it on anyone else, don't make them pay for it, and don't launch advertising campaigns that "it's good for you" based on half truths. It's really, really simple. If people had the choice if they wanted to eat a poison (And yes, beign substances like water are fatal if it dilutes the bodies electrolytes too much. There's a big difference between water and the most electronegative of all the halogens. Water is essential to life. Fluoride only appears in a few nasty organic toxins in some plants in Austrailia.) then I wouldn't be so bothered about it. It's peoples continued assertion that "a little bit of fluoride is safe" that pisses me off. Even if that were true, you would want to apply it topically to the teeth, not ingest it to suffer osteoporosis, bone cancer, and binary affect alzheimers later on in life.
--------------------
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10661785 - 07/12/09 05:04 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Eventually Zouden has to admit that the Nazi's were not concerned with inmates dental health
When have I ever denied this? I said it wasn't relevant, unless you can show that the dosages were the same. You have failed to show this. Thus I do not consider it relevant.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10661801 - 07/12/09 05:22 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Zouden, I've asked you many, many times now why you think the Nazi's and Soviets drugged concentration camp water. You, of all people should understand the mechanism for how sodium fluoride is a sedative. To anyone else not to transparently biased towards involuntary (and no, there is no democracy, republic, or "will of the people." If there was, drug prohibition would be long dead, and the Iraq war would have never happened) mass medication they understand this historical precedent shows that this, along with many other examples, demonstrates that our respective governments do not have our best interests at heart.
Not answering this question is cowardly, you will not answer correctly, because then you have to admit that.
1: They drugged their inmates
2: Never was about "improving dental health"
In which case, why even bother trying to defend your flawed, illogical, and malicious stance that everyone should have this drug in their water, for "the greater good" as you seem to think the negatives are outweighed by the positives? Go and ask most people in the street what's worse, bone cancer or false teeth. Oesteoporosis or false teeth, Lower IQ, or false teeth?
Let's look at the lowered IQ findings again. Of all the nasty side effects to this drug, I find this one the most insidious.
http://www.dentalheroes.com/can-fluoride-lower-iq/
Quote:
Knockout Blow for Fluoride?
Just when I thought fluoride’s reputation couldn’t possibly take another hit, it gets hit with what could be a knockout blow. What sent fluoride possibly down for the count was the discovery by a Canadian Toxocologist that fluoride may indeed lower a person’s IQ! The Toxicologist, Dr. Vyvyan Howard was so convinced by the results of his study that he has joined the growing movement calling for an end to fluoride use in areas where it has been strategically introduced into the water supply.
The fluoride debate has picked up in recent years, as more and more evidence suggests that fluoride is toxic, and could be hurting us more than it helps. I think the mounting evidence is beginning to convince me. If you’ll remember back to the video I posted back in June(See video below) which featured a dentist speaking out against the use of fluoride, you’ll hear several compelling arguments.
Fluoride is Toxic
For example, the dentist in the video points out the fact that under the “drug facts” heading on the back of a tube of toothpaste you’ll probably notice fluoride is there. That’s not news. We know fluoride is a drug. What is interesting is that the tube of toothpaste probably also says to “contact poison control” if a large amount of toothpaste is swallowed. Hmmm. If the only drug in most toothpastes is fluoride, and we have to call poison control if swallowed, doesn’t that mean that the manufacturers of toothpaste are admitting that fluoride is a toxic substance?
Ok, so you’ve heard some of the other arguments made against fluoride in this video, but let’s get back to the IQ lowering properties of fluoride. In the study conducted by Dr. Howard, he found that:
Children’s IQ are likely to be lower in high natural water fluoride areas, said Howard. These studies are plausible because fluoride is known to affect the thyroid hormone which affects intelligence and fluoride is also a neurotoxicant.
Additionally, In 2006, the U.S. National Research Council’s (NRC) expert fluoride panel reviewed recent fluoride toxicology and concluded, “It’s apparent that fluorides have the ability to interfere with the functions of the brain.”
Sadly, recent surveys have confirmed that most dental professionals are unaware of the negative effects that fluoride can have on the brain. Apparently, the anti-fluoride campaign has some work to do yet, but it appears as if the mounting evidence may begin to convince even the most stubborn dentists that fluoride has to go.
Source:http://www.bestsyndication.com/?q=20080814_flouride_lower_iq_study.htm
Yes, there are better, more effective (and safer) sedatives out there. However, fluoride salts are a byproduct of bauxite refinement, and the fertiliser industry has a lot to. I wouldn't be surprised if these industries did put out propoganda and bribed officals that putting toxic waste into municipal water supplies is a good idea. Fluoridated water is a slow killing option. People will be healthy enough to work, and come retirement age, die earlier than what they should have when the affects of 50+ years of accumiliated toxic buildup causes numerous health problems.
Aluminium and fertiliser industries, instead of having to pay for expensive toxic waste containment, get paid by us, the taxpayer, to have it diluted into our water.
Government welfare programs get to keep more money, as the sooner old people die, the less pension money they have to dole out.
Dentists get more business treating fluorosis;
Why is it so hard to admit you made a mistake? It's ok to make mistakes, we all learn from them. You do like to learn, don't you? You want to better yourself, right? Sure you do. I can't speak for anyone else, but I won't loose any respect in you if you were to admit you were wrong on mass drugging of people.
--------------------
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10661810 - 07/12/09 05:29 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I don't understand why you think it's 'cowardly' of me to not 'admit' that the Nazis drugged inmates with fluoride. I never said they didn't. But since you have not shown what dose they used, I don't see how it is relevant to this thread. Are you going to bother explaining this?
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10661839 - 07/12/09 05:54 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
You are not so good at reading my responses.
Look again.
All I have claimed as subjective, is the opinion that a dose of anything, in whatever it may cause in particular, is further considered either "adverse", or "beneficial" for the well being of an individual. The bold in that sentence, is what is of controversy. In other words, in all cases including your example, it is a matter of opinion whether a substance is considered toxic or medicinal to the particular well being of an individual.
--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: daytripper23]
#10661844 - 07/12/09 05:58 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
So what you're saying is it's a matter of opinion whether something being lethal is considered beneficial or not? Of course. I'm not disputing that. What's not a matter of opinion is whether the LD50 of a substance will kill 50% of those who take it.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10661848 - 07/12/09 06:03 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Yes.
--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 3,518
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 27 days, 14 hours
|
 Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10662095 - 07/12/09 08:09 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Science is an utterly useless tool if the individual does not use it to also examine their own mind.
I have noticed that recently science has become dogmatic to the point of rivaling religious fundamentalism.
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 55 minutes, 27 seconds
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Mr.Al]
#10662130 - 07/12/09 08:17 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10662174 - 07/12/09 08:29 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
I don't understand why you think it's 'cowardly' of me to not 'admit' that the Nazis drugged inmates with fluoride. I never said they didn't. But since you have not shown what dose they used, I don't see how it is relevant to this thread. Are you going to bother explaining this?
I didn't ask you to admit the nazi's drugged their water. I asked you why they did.
--------------------
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10662215 - 07/12/09 08:41 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
In response to the original question:
http://willthomasonline.net/willthomasonline/Obama_Considers_Chemtrails.html
A worthwhile read on how high atmospheric cloud spraying is corrosive to the ozone layer.
Quote:
In 1992, the National Academy of Science's $80 992-page report on “mitigating” greenhouse warming included a “Geoengineering” chapter that discussed “Screening Out Some Sunlight”. Computer simulations showed that an increase in albedo of just half a percent would be “sufficient to halve the effect of a CO2 doubling.” This would “involve changing the quantity or character of cloud cover.”
Such a grandiose fantasy would also greatly increase the scientists' libido.
Since only a fraction of incoming solar radiation reaches the Earth's surface, this chemical sunscreen “would have more impact if done high in the atmosphere,” the NAS said. It might even “destroy stratospheric ozone.”
Why?
Because spraying megatons of fine particles into the stratosphere clumps chlorine compounds into giant ice clouds. When struck by sunlight, these chemical clouds refract prismatic fragments like rainbows. And become highly corrosive to ozone.
Ken Caldeira was the climate expert who ran the computer simulations at the Lawrence Livermore atom bomb labs. He too warned that the stratospheric spraying of sunlight-reflecting chemicals could “destroy the ozone layer” - as well as posing human health risks.
Quote:
Oasis TV Chemtrails Winds Of Death screenshot
1991
October 22
BANYACYA IN THE UN
Traditional Hopi elder Thomas Banyacya travels to the United Nations, where he presents a letter reminding international delegates: “This house is built on the original native peoples' land, yet it has not permitted native peoples to speak in the General Assembly.”
HUGHES AEROSPACE FILES WELSBACH SEEDING PATENT
A patent is filed by Hughes aircraft company for the “Stratospheric Welsbach Seeding for Reduction of Global Warming”. Environmental consultant Mike Castle later discovers the primary purpose behind chemtrails by reflecting incoming sunlight with Welsbach oxides of metals capable of converting heat trapped by greenhouse gases near the Earth's surface into far-infrared wavelengths, which then radiate into space. Cautioning that the resulting white skies may be unpopular, the Hughes patent nevertheless suggests that these very tiny metal flakes could be “added to the fuel of jet airliners, so that the particles would be emitted from the jet engine exhaust while the airliner was at its cruising altitude.”
Aluminum oxide can withstand temperatures far higher than jet engine exhausts. While highly abrasive in larger sizes, a former Alcoa aluminum engineer told this reporter that aluminum in the 10 to 100 micron sizes called for in the sunscreen patent would simply polish jet turbine blades without harming them. (A human hair is about 100 microns across). The engineer added that this “very fine, talcum-like” aluminum powder would appear as a “pure white plume” in the sky.
1992
NAS GEOENGINEERING STUDY
National Academy of Science $80, 944-page report on the “Policy Implications of Greenhouse Warming” includes chapters on “mitigation” describing geoengineering schemes championed by the late Edward Teller and others: “Cloud stimulation by provision of cloud condensation nuclei appears to be a feasible and low-cost option capable of being used to mitigate any quantity of CO2. Perhaps one of the surprises of this analysis is the relatively low costs at which some of the geoengineering options might be implemented.
Hopi elder Banyacya at United Nations
1993
November 22
During this International Year of the Indigenous People, Hopi elders are invited to address the United Nations in New York. The Hopi Prophecy Message - “Cry of the Earth” - is delivered by Thomas Banyacya, Dan Evehama and Martin Gashwaseoma to the UN General Assembly. Gashwaseoma, who informs representatives of the world's governments that Hopi prophecies foretold how people would become corrupt and turn away from their Creator and abuse the sacred Earth.
“We must act swiftly to save land and lives,” Banyacya tells UN Secretary General Boutros Ghali. “The Guardian Spirits of the land have begun to act as we warned, i.e. earthquakes, fires, floods, arctic freezes, big winds, violence erupting, incurable diseases and more.”
Banyacya adds, “We were warned long ago that this time would come!” Many ancients Hopi prophecies foretelling the coming of railroads, freeways, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, and the international space station have come true. Now the Hopi elders inform the world that the Great Purification will be signaled by “cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky.”
USAF
1996
August
U.S. AIR FORCE REVEALS TECHNIQUES ON “OWNING THE WEATHER”
U.S. Air Force research study, "Weather As A Force Multiplier: Owning The Weather in 2025" outlines how HAARP and aerial cloud-seeding from tankers could allow USAF “Weather Force Specialists” to fly “aerial obscuration” missions spraying chemicals to form “cirrus shields”. The study further notes that HAARP could be used “to stimulate,” heat and steer sections of the upper atmosphere. VIDEO
1998
EDWARD TELLER'S CALL FOR AERIAL “SUNSCREEN” OPPOSED BY TOP CLIMATE MODELER
As the first “Category 6” hurricane ever recorded packs sustained winds of 200 mph, Antarctica warms 10-times faster than the global rate, and flagship insurer Lloyds of London is taking on water after losing almost $11 billion in just four years, “Father of the H-Bomb” Edward Teller addresses the International Seminar On Planetary Emergencies. Why not spray a protective chemical “sunscreen” into the upper atmosphere, Teller urges. Read his "Sunscreen For Planet Earth"
Computer simulations conducted at Lawrence Livermore show that if enough reflective particles can be suspended in the atmosphere to deflect just 1% of incoming sunlight, an expected doubling CO2 emissions would result in no net warming over at least 85% of Earth's surface. This chemical cloud cover will also greatly reduce levels of potentially lethal ultraviolet rays.
But climate modeler Ken Caldeira worries that this massive aerial spraying of reflective particles will further cool the stratosphere by diverting incoming sunlight, creating CFC ice-clouds that “could destroy the ozone layer.”
The Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory scientist later tells Columbus Alive, “We originally did this study to show that this program shouldn't be done.”
“Why not?” asks reporter Bob Fitrakis.
Because of negative health effects, Caldeira replies.
1999
January 7-March
WILLIAM THOMAS ON ART BELL AS EMERGENCY ROOMS OVERFLOW ACROSS USA
William Thomas makes his first of eight appearance on Art Bell's “Coast to Coast” radio show with news of something he calls “chemtrails”.
The Philadelphia Daily News reports that Emergency Room patients were overflowing into the hallways at West Jersey Hospital in Berlin, New Jersey “as a wave of respiratory illnesses swept the area.”
There is a 24-hour waiting period to get into New York State hospital. In San Francisco, TV stations report that paramedics are being diverted to help handle swamped ERs. A person in Portland “heard on the radio that the hospitals in Portland are jammed up with people coming in. Plus in Eugene it seems like everyone is coming down with something. And my wife and I saw some rainbow-colored clouds yesterday. We are calling them chem-clouds.”
A local family physician says that “a nameless virus is bringing at least 10 patients a day into her office and driving some into the hospital, but laboratory tests show only a few are suffering from Type A or other identifiable strains of influenza.” [Lake Havasu Today's News Herald Jan 31/07]
Hospitals are full across the country. In Castle Rock, Colorado, the emergency room is filled with people and the prescription line is out the front door. A woman doctor told a patient it is a new bacteria that they can't fight. She says, “Your sickness will last for up to three months.” How does she know?
One month after I am assigned by the Environment News Service to cover the strange sky patterning, seven Kentucky counties close all the schools because of sick children with “flu-type” symptoms. In Youngstown, Ohio, a doctor tells a patient, “The hospitals were filled with patients having severe problems.”
On February 15, an Akron, Ohio resident reports, “The trails above our home are lower and wider. How long has this been going on? Our kids are coming up with throat, lung, and upper respiratory ailments that no one can figure out. My husband started with the sore throat last week. Also, my elderly neighbor across the street is now in a hospital on a ventilator. She came down with what they thought was pneumonia, then decided it wasn't that. It's a thick lining growing in her lungs, and they do not know how to get rid of it or what it is. A local hospital is leasing an entire floor and it's growing into a hospital company who specializes in upper-respiratory diseases.”
On a morning in late March, observers in Spokane count 33 chemtrails in two and half hours. One says, “We have a police scanner, and we are hearing so many rescue calls for people with breathing difficulties.”
A Chandler, Arizona resident reports that after heavy chemtrail activity, “The doctor's offices and hospitals were totally packed the next week, and one of the nurses I spoke to said they didn't know what was wrong with everyone.”
Lab tests for influenza keep coming up negative. Robert Page, director of the Chemung County Health Department in Elmira, New York, tells reporters, “We know there's a lot of sickness, but our diagnosis shows that it's not the flu.”
MDs across North America tell the New York Times and other newspapers:
“This is the worst crisis I have seen.”
“We have people double- and triple-parked in the ER on stretchers.”
“Respiratory and gastrointestinal illnesses are filling up the beds.”
“It was surprising to me how sick they got and how quickly it happened.”
“The increase in respiratory infections may not be due to the flu.”
“We know there's a lot of sickness, but our diagnosis shows that it's not the flu.”
“We've seen a lot of cases that you can't typically classify as flu.”
January 12
FIRST CHEMTRAILS REPORT ISSUED ON WORLDWIDE WIRE SERVICE
“Mystery Contrails May Be Modifying Weather” by William Thomas (ENS
U.S. Air Force aerial tankers may be causing and seeding clouds to modify the weather… Tommy Farmer, a former engineering technician with Raytheon Missile Systems, has been tracking patterns of jet contrails phenomena for more than a year. Farmer has "positively identified" two of the aircraft most often involved in the aerial spraying incidents as a Boeing KC-135 and Boeing KC-10. Both big jets are used by the US Air Force for air to air refueling.
Farmer has collected samples of what he calls "angel hair" sprayed by the mystery aircraft on six occasions since February, 1998… Farmer urges caution to collectors after becoming ill after his first contact with the "angel hair."
Strands of extremely fine polymers could be sprayed into the upper atmosphere to be heated by HAARP. Bernard Eastlund wrote to say, “The experiments described by Thomas seem technically feasible. Recent work on polymeric additives for microwave absorption has been done for commercial curing applications so the polymer fibers are available.”
HAARP's inventor supplied addresses for two producers of polymer capable of being heated by intensely focused Radio Frequency beams. “The heat generation occurs by adding magnetic iron oxide powder to the polymer,” Eastlund explained. FREQUON-B-20 and F-5 PPS polymers “are sensitive in the 1-50 MHz regime. HAARP transmits between 2 and 10 MHz.”
January - August
CARNICOM'S ATMOSPHERIC STUDY SHOWS SKY PLUMES CANNOT BE CONTRAILS
Clifford Carnicom correlates atmospheric readings by NASA's Climate Diagnostics Center with 21 days of heavy “chemtrail” gridding over Santa Fe, New Mexico. At altitudes where persistent white plumes criss-cross the usually cloudless New Mexico sky, Carnicom finds 30% humidity or less-less than half the moisture needed to form contrails.
March 5
SENATOR LIEBERMAN WRITES TO EPA INQUIRING ABOUT “TOXIC SPRAYING”
Senator Joseph Lieberman writes to EPA head Carol Browner regarding constituent concerns “about the possible release of toxic chemical substances from jet contrails” and “reports of toxic spraying over populated areas in 41 states.” In calling for a response from the EPA, Senator Lieberman notes, “My constituents further point out recent outbreaks of flu-like symptoms and other sicknesses in Connecticut and other states that may possibly be linked to jet fuel exhaust fumes.”
The EPA does not reply to the senator.
March
ESPANOLA, ONTARIO RESIDENTS PROTEST SPRAYING
Residents describe “frequent spraying” over Espanola, Ontario. In Espanola, where spray sometimes falls as visible, flesh-stinging particles thick as snow, lab tests of rainwater falling through extensive chemtrail plumes reveals levels of aluminum seven-times higher than existing provincial safety limits for drinking water.
Microscopic quartz particles predominate in the Ontario chemtrail analysis, with one fallout sample taken from a car windshield showing an 80% quartz component. Used by Nikola Tesla in his high-energy experiments, the electrical properties of quartz raises speculation that the chemtrails laid down over Espanola may have been connected with HAARP.
By July, mounting public pressure compels the provincial Ministry of Environment to dispatch an air monitoring van. At a raucous August 10 town meeting, environment officials pronounce the air “safe”-but reportedly refuse to make public the actual air sampling analysis. On August 29, 1999, CBC Newsworld reports from Espanola: “Residents of a small town west of Sudbury, Ontario are anxious. They think they're getting sick, and they think they know why. It involves the U.S. military, the government and strange planes overhead.”
The US Air Force denies flying its planes over Espanola. Residents counter with eyewitness reports and photos of USAF tankers spreading broad white plumes over the region. Canada's national news network notes, “Tempers at the Espanola town council run high. Residents want to know what's flying over their community. Shelly Jordan thinks strange planes might be making her kids sick…In fact, many in the community have reported respiratory problems and strange aches and pains. Town council heard that some believe military jets are dropping material over the town as part of a weather experiment.”
Provincial lab analysis find traces of mica and large quantities of highly reflective quartz grains.
The lab does not classify any of the 1600 molds/fungi found in the rainwater, reporting only that “no one species was dominant.”
The level of aluminum in the chemtrail-contaminated sample is .53 (ppm): 7-times over the previous “safe” threshold set by the Ontario government for drinking water.
One resident notices “a lot of depressed people in Espanola.”
In addition, “A lot of people here in town are complaining of short term memory loss.” People can't remember simple errands, or where they parked their cars. It's become, he added without humor, “a running joke.”
Blaming the chemtrail spraying for widespread respiratory problems and strange aches and pains that were suddenly endemic over a 50 mile area, more than 550 residents of this small Ontario community petitioned to parliament to “ban all cloud-seeding activity by civil or military aircraft, foreign or domestic.”
November 18
“AIRCRAFT EMISSIONS” PETITION TABLED IN CANADIAN HOUSE OF COMMONS
On behalf of his Ontario constituents, Member of Parliament Gordon Earle tells the House of Commons: “The petitioners call upon parliament to repeal any law that would permit the dispersal of military chaff or of any cloud-seeding substance whatsoever by domestic or foreign military aircraft without the informed consent of the citizens of Canada thus affected.”
The Department of National Defense eventually replies: “It's not us.”
2000
January 8
MEAT TRUCKS AGAIN USED AS MORGUES IN BRITAIN
This season, the number of acute care patients who actually test positive for the flu declines, while refrigerated lorries are once again being used by the National Health Service as temporary morgues in a grim repetition of scenes outside hospitals last winter. Hospitals on Britain's south coast are forced to store bodies in trailers after nearly 40% of elderly victims of pneumonia contracted from an Influenza-Like Illness die. [London Telegraph Jan 8/00]
I experience severe pain in my left elbow after heavy chemtrail spraying over my remote hillside home following my first appearance on Art Bell's radio show. I also endure an annoying and worrisome twitching left eyelid following heavy chemtrail spraying over my relocated residence off Canada's west coast. Like the pain in my elbow, this symptom of neurotoxin exposure eventually goes away. Gushing nosebleeds are a common chemtrail symptom, along with gastrointestinal problems Other symptoms include disorientation, depression, inexplicable anxiety, and an inability to concentrate.
Grounded US Air Force KC-135 tankers
March 2
CHEMTRAILS VANISH AFTER TANKERS GROUNDED
when the Associated Press reported that hundreds of KC-135s had been grounded to fix problems in their tail feathers.
The next day, the chemtrail tracking center in Houston reported that daily spraying over the U.S. had suddenly dropped from 24 to just two locations - where KC-10s had most likely taken over. When the big jets were returned to service the following week, Chemtrail sightings climbed right back to previous levels.
California barium levels graph
May 15
IPCC GEOENGINEERING STURY SAYS CHEMICAL SUNSCREEN WILL SLOW GLOBAL WARMING
GOVERNMENT / EXPERT REVIEW IPCC-WGIII TAR SOD discusses geoengineering-the deliberate, large-scale manipulations of Earth life-sustaining ecologies. Teller's computers and cohorts believe that 10 million tons of sunlight-reflecting chemicals spread in the atmosphere “would be sufficient to increase the albedo of the Earth by about 1%.”
Chemtrails and Greenpeace magazine cover story in Germany
August
GREENPEACE “AWARE” OF CHEMTRAILS ISSUE
Greenpeace Switzerland's Climate and Transport expert Cyrill Studer has written an internal memo to his colleagues, stating: “I have heard of the chemtrails phenomenon… For the present, Greenpeace… will not be following up the theme of chemtrails. There is not a sufficiently solid scientific basis… Greenpeace is not an organization that can undertake the verification of a supposed phenomenon.”
Now, a startling admission from GP Canada comes in reply to this letter sent on August 16, 2000:
Hi, could you please let me know about all this UFO aircraft spraying out all these trails that plume out to large thin clouds, after-effects stinging eyes, congestion. Unmarked dark white aircraft with pluming exhaust coming out and expanding outward, August 16, 2000 Vancouver B.C. completely bombarded - seen aircraft myself normal clouds going one way contrail/chemtrails going the other...I would like your explanation. Search a search engine or check out the page I gave you. -Jim
Dear Jim,
It does seem rather unusual and alarming. Greenpeace is aware of this issue, but unfortunately it is not one of our current campaigns…
Peace, Kathy
December 8
FEDERAL AIRPORT OFFICIAL LEARNS CHEMTRAILS NOT SPREAD BY AIRLINERS
At the Victoria International Airport in British Columbia, Canada, unsuspecting aviation Environment Manager Terry Stewart responds to a call the previous day from a local resident demanding to know why intense aerial activity left lingering X's, circles and grid-like plumes over the British Columbia capitol on December 6 and 7.
Stewart's brief reply ends the “airliner” argument:
“Mark, it's Terry Stewart, Victoria Airport Authority. Just calling you back from your comment. From what I gather, it's a military exercise; U.S. and Canadian air force exercise that's goin' on. They wouldn't give me any specifics on it. Hope that helps your interest. Very odd. Thanks a lot. Bye-bye now.”
William Thomas points out chemtrails over Capitola, California
Chemtrails Stop Spryaing Us poster
December 22
WEBS FROM THE SKY
Oregon's Wallowa Chieftain reports sightings “web-like material… falling from the sky.” Some locals think the filaments are falling “from three military jets that had been flying back and forth in an east-west flight pattern at high altitude.” Other links the webs to Hopi Prophecy.
Winter 2000
MARK STEADHAM'S HOUSTON CONTRAIL STUDY
Using Flight Explorer software to identify the airliners and military aircraft passing Houston, Texas, Mark Steadham times their respective plumes. Sample results:
12/02/00
11:00 am ~4-8 hrs. (military)
11:45 am ~2 minutes (commercial)
12/08/000
8:50 pm 10 seconds (commercial)
01:00 pm ~4-8 hrs. (military)
12/21/000
8:50 am 20 seconds (commercial)
09:00 am ~4-8 hrs. (military)
09:40 am ~4-8 hrs. (military)
10:10 am 20 seconds (commercial)
Confirmed contrail observations in study (46)
All confirmed contrails 15 seconds or less 72%
All confirmed contrails 30 seconds or less 80%
All confirmed contrails 2 minutes or less 96%
White plumes left by from Military Aircraft: ~4 hours to 8 hours
Centre Point science texbook describes chemtrails sunshield
2001
CENTRE POINT SCIENCE TEXTBOOK TEACHES KIDS TO ACCEPT CHEMTRAILS
A is for Apple. B is for Boy. C is for Chemtrails. At least this is what one American father finds. While checking out his children's science book, SMT is astonished to find seventh graders being taught about chemtrails, and geoengineering the planet.
The chemtrails section is found in the Centre Point Learning Science I Essential Interactions science book. Under “Solutions for Global Warming” section 5.19 features a photo of a big multi-engine jet with a familiar orange/red paint scheme. The caption reads: “Figure 1- Jet engines running on richer fuel would add particles to the atmosphere to create a sunscreen.” The logo on the plane says: “Particle Air”.
Helping habituate children to a life of lethal sunshine and “protective” spray planes, its authors are referring to a sunscreen spread across the sky. “Could we deliberately add particles to the atmosphere?” asks the text, before helpfully suggesting that “Burning coal adds soot to the air.”
In a country whose self-appointed regime routinely censors scientific studies, at least some 7th grade science are more focused on indoctrinating kids with risky techno “quick-fixes” than conscious conservation and common sense. Where are the picture, wonders one parent, “of people planting trees, or turning down thermostats, or bicycling, or any of the other ways not to add to the problem?”
March 7
SMALL PARTICLES FORM BIG OVERCASTS -NCAR
''Conspiracy nonsense,'' snorts Kenneth Sassen, an atmospheric scientist at the University of Utah. ''These things are at 30,000 to 40,000 feet in the atmosphere. They're tiny particles. They're not going to affect anyone. The cloud-forming contrails that conspiracy theorists find so ominous are perfectly natural. The odd grid and parallel-line patterns are easily explained as contrails blown together by the wind." USA Today interviews me extensively, but cuts my evidence from reporter Tracy Watson's story. So do CBC Radio, and Good Morning America. [USA Today Mar 7/01]
At the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado, Al Cooper studies the tiny particles that become nuclei for clumping clouds and raindrops. Spread a few extra nuclei like silver iodide into highly humid air and rainfall results. But in air not already swollen with moisture, especially in near-drought conditions, introducing too many particulates into the atmosphere to compete for a small amount of moisture can act like a sponge, resulting in decreased rainfall.
Vincent Schaefer, a Naval postgraduate who invented iodine cloud-seeding techniques in 1946, (as well as Joseph Moran's contemporary textbook, Meteorology) agree that clouds form when water vapor accretes around particles of grit acting as attracting nuclei. Recent NOAA and NASA atmospheric studies such as TARFOX, ACE-Asia, ACE-I and II, INDOEX and Project SUCCESS have confirmed that the only way to form artificial clouds under conditions of low humidity and less than ideal temperatures is by dispensing additional particles from aircraft.
In other words, when atmospheric conditions prevent the moisture-attracting nuclei left by aircraft engine exhausts from forming contrails, chemicals added to the fuel can leave enough extra particles to create clouds when relative humidity is less than 70%.
Modeled by Paul Demott at Colorado State University's Department of Atmospheric Science, the principle factors determining cirrus cloud development are temperature, relative humidity, and aerosol size. The last variable is of primary importance and may be supplied by high-flying aircraft. The smaller the size of each added nuclei, the faster the rate of cirrus cloud formation.
March 12
S.T. BRENDT INTERVIEWS AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL MANAGER, “DEEP SKY”
In remote rural Maine, radio reporter S.T. Brendt and her partner count 30 big jets in 45 minutes. She finally reaches an Air Traffic Control Manager for the entire northeastern seaboard, who tells her that of the nine jets on his radarscope, she should be able to see only one from her location. Brendt calls the assistant WMWV news director, who takes the news staff outside. Together they count 370 lines in skies usually devoid of aerial activity.
Over three taped interviews, the federal ATC manager we dub “Deep Sky” reveals that chemicals sprayed by specially designated USAF tankers degrade Air traffic Control radar returns. When asked whether the air force spray tankers cross into Canadian air space, he replies “yes.”
When asked the purpose of these missions, the FAA official says he was told “weather modification” after a “higher civil authority” ordered him to divert incoming trans-Atlantic airliners around military formations flying over 37,000 feet on March 12, 20 and 21, 2001. The explanation told to controllers across the nation is later defined as “climate modification”.
May 27
CHEMTRAILS ON CABLE TV PROVOKES CANADIAN AIR FORCE INTO COSTLY LIE
With funding from a concerned businessman, I illustrate a short “Chemtrails 101” script with local chemtrail photos and take the package to a major cable TV company. The resulting advertisement runs around the clock for a month on the “menu” channel of TV listings in Victoria, British Columbia capitol - as well as the viewing area around the country's Canadian Forces air base at Comox. Cable watchers deluge the mainstream media for coverage, and I began getting calls from newsrooms that have ignored the plumes being spread over their heads for years: “Our phones are ringing off the hook, Mr. Thomas. We have to interview you.”
Local newspapers are also pulled into the story. Provoked into addressing the issue, the Comox brass goes ballistic, angrily denouncing the “hoax” on local radio. But this move backfires when the Vancouver Courier runs a story featuring Terry Stewart, who reveals that his information of a “military operation” being conducted by USAF tankers in local skies came from the Comox airbase. Comox air force radar techs confirm tracking the spray planes.
July 19
DYN-O-MAT TEST TAKES OUT THUNDERSTORM
Entering a thunderstorm 10 miles off West Palm Beach, a B-57 Canberra jet bomber chartered for one million dollars releases some 9,000 pounds of improved Dyn-O-Gel capable of 10-times stronger water absorption. Miami's Channel 5's weather radar shows the huge thunderhead losing moisture. Within seconds, the buildup vanished as one side of the cloud collapsed “like an avalanche”, according to a chase plane cameraman. [Sun-Sentinel July 20/01]
National Academy of Science
BARIUM LEVELS UP SHARPLY
California state officials cannot explain how barium levels have nearly doubled since 1991.
Chemtrail Death graffiti
Late 1999
CHEMTRAIL-RELATED ILLNESS
The Idaho Observer observes: “Last year, north Idaho naturopaths determined that the upper respiratory infections that would drag on for months were not viral or bacterial but were fungal.” In a recent survey among 179 patients reportedly suffering from CRI:
* 22% have been to a hospital Emergency Room.
*34% exhibit rashes and sores.
* Half or more experience disorientation and suffered from stiff neck and gastro-intestinal problems.
* 72% have a sore throat.
* 78% report severe headaches.
* 81% complain of congestion.
* Almost everyone surveyed experiences short-term memory loss and difficulty in concentrating.
* 99% are found to have fungus in their blood.
Whatever its origins, there is increasing fungus among us. Chemist and botanist Bruce Tanio's list of symptoms:
* Abdominal pain, gas and bloating, indigestion, heartburn, constipation, diarrhea, gastritis.
* Swelling and pain of muscles and/or joints.
*Depression, anxiety, sudden mood swings, lack of concentration, drowsiness, fatigue, insomnia, poor memory, headaches, and light-headedness.
chemtrails in grid pattern over lake violate commercial air traffic rules
Chemtrails Timeline 2001 - 2004
Special Thanks To Glenn Boyle for his extensive chemtrail photo collection - many of which appear on these pages. If your photo is not credited here, kindly notify me atwt@willthomas.net and I will post you rname and website right away.
Thank you. -William Thomas
William Thomas in Capitola, CA photo by Karen Nevis
Glenn Boyle
Glenn Boyle
USAF "Owning The Weather"
Banyacya at UN whatmagazine.org
lightwatcher.com
Glenn Boyle
CHEMTRAILS TIMELINE
1962 - 2008
by
William Thomas
willthomasonline.net
[All references from Chemtrails Confirmed 2007 by William Thomas unless otherwise noted.]
1962 - 2001
Pre-Columbian Era
HOPI PROPHECY
Long before Columbus “discovered” civilizations long extant throughout the Americas, the Hopi elders of the Southwest foretell of the end of the Fourth Age of Man during a time of Great Purification. This period will begin with the appearance of white people on native lands. [“Koyanisquaatsi” DVD]
1962
August 4-15
OPERATION CUMULUS
British Royal Air Force and Western scientists engage in Operation Cumulus, a rainmaking project that leads to 35 flood-related deaths in Devon, England. [BBC Aug 30/01]
1961 - 1980
PROJECT STORM FURY
US scientists conduct extensive research into weakening hurricanes with cloud-seeding techniques from aircraft in a project known as Project Storm Fury.
1967
OPERATION POPEYE
Operation Popeye is conducted by the 54th Weather Reconnaissance Squadron to "make mud, not war" by seeding clouds over the Ho Chi Minh Trail to wash out North Vietnamese supply routes. In its failure it leads to ENMOD.
1975
US NAVY CONTRAIL GENERATOR PATENT
U.S. Navy “Contrail Generation Patent” describes a “Contrail generation apparatus for producing a powder contrail having maximum radiation scattering ability.” The patent notes that the Navy's invention is also suitable “to generate contrails or reflective screens for any desired purpose.”
1977
ENMOD
UN treaty "Convention on the Prohibition of Military or any other Hostile Use of Environmental Modification" (ENMOD) specifically prohibits “the use of techniques that would have widespread, long-lasting or severe effects through deliberate manipulation of natural processes and cause such phenomena as earthquakes, tidal waves and changes in climate and weather patterns.”
The USA has similar laws already in place, including:
EPA AIR QUALITY MANAGEMENT RULE 402. NUISANCE
A person shall not discharge from any source whatsoever such quantities of air contaminants or other material which cause injury, detriment, nuisance, or annoyance to any considerable number of persons or to the public, or which endanger the comfort, repose, health or safety of any such persons or the public, or which cause, or have a natural tendency to cause, injury or damage to business or property.
1987
August 11
BERNARD EASTLUND AND HAARP PATENT
The first of three patents awarded to MIT physicist Bernard Eastlund describe his Method and Apparatus for Altering a Region of the Earth's Atmosphere, Ionosphere and/or Magnetosphere as focusing on weather modification. Commercial patent #4,686,605 claims that directed energy beams of more than one-billion watts can be used for “altering the upper atmosphere wind patterns using plumes of atmospheric particles as a lens or focusing device” to disturb weather thousands of miles away.
Watch 2008 TV News Barium Chemtrails VIDEO
chemtrails spot commercial by Wiliam Thomas on cable TV screenshot
http://willthomasonline.net/willthomasonline/Chemtrails_Timeline_1.html
--------------------
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10663943 - 07/12/09 03:07 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The link to wiki about the anticoagulant being a rat reppelent, I have a problem with this line of thinking. here is what I think to myself
ok doctors can show in a lab that this is not bad and has an effect which may be beneficial for some people
oh but it was a rat poison?
well thats strange
why would they want to use that
why not eat your fruits and vegtables and take some herbal medicine?
that seems like a good idea. it is cleaner then all those industrial chemicals
why do these people insist that is the best medicine?
why don't we focus more on nutrition
instead of weird chemicals
?
all the doctor take the hippocratic oath (oh the irony)
to quote the guy
"let thy food be thy medicine"
so can anyone tell me why?
Quote:
zouden said:It goes something like this:
-it reduces cavities
-reducing cavities reduces dental costs, freeing up money to be spent on more productive things
-fluoridating water, including infrastructure, is extremely cheap
-therefore, fluoridating water saves money as well as improving the population's health
-if done correctly, adverse effects can be extremely minimal
-the government already puts things in the water that can have adverse effects on some people, such as chlorine, so there is precedent
-since the government is elected by the people, water fluoridation is, by extension, a service provided by the people for the people.
look OMG look at all those claims without any evidence. you can't just get on here and make absurd statement like that without any evidence. that isn't how science works
visonry tools dominated everyone
we win
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
Edited by ChiefGreenLeaf (07/12/09 03:16 PM)
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 55 minutes, 27 seconds
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10664038 - 07/12/09 03:25 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
visonry tools dominated everyone
we win
Off to the gay parade with you then.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10664190 - 07/12/09 03:47 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
The link to wiki about the anticoagulant being a rat reppelent, I have a problem with this line of thinking. here is what I think to myself
ok doctors can show in a lab that this is not bad and has an effect which may be beneficial for some people
oh but it was a rat poison?
well thats strange
why would they want to use that
why not eat your fruits and vegtables and take some herbal medicine?
that seems like a good idea. it is cleaner then all those industrial chemicals
why do these people insist that is the best medicine?
why don't we focus more on nutrition
instead of weird chemicals
?
all the doctor take the hippocratic oath (oh the irony)
to quote the guy
"let thy food be thy medicine"
so can anyone tell me why?
It's very simple. You don't understand biology.
Quote:
Quote:
zouden said:It goes something like this:
-it reduces cavities
-reducing cavities reduces dental costs, freeing up money to be spent on more productive things
-fluoridating water, including infrastructure, is extremely cheap
-therefore, fluoridating water saves money as well as improving the population's health
-if done correctly, adverse effects can be extremely minimal
-the government already puts things in the water that can have adverse effects on some people, such as chlorine, so there is precedent
-since the government is elected by the people, water fluoridation is, by extension, a service provided by the people for the people.
look OMG look at all those claims without any evidence. you can't just get on here and make absurd statement like that without any evidence. that isn't how science works
visonry tools dominated everyone
we win
That post wasn't directed at you. It was in response to Johnm214, who is still the only poster here to articulate a good argument against fluoridation. I am happy to provide sources for those claims if he asks, but I doubt he will. The argument I outlined above is not refuted by disputing factual claims, since it's a moral argument.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,453
Last seen: 2 hours, 2 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10664676 - 07/12/09 05:05 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
visonry tools dominated everyone
we win
I don't win until taxes stop being wasted on drugging the water, polluting the skies, invading countries, telling people that mercury/fluoride/camel cigarettes are good for them, and being stolen from them, to give to the banksters.
We'd save a lot of money if the above mentioned things wern't being done. Enough money that if people wanted to, they could have fluoride toothpaste, they could afford thermirosal toothpaste, they could buy GM foods if they want to. If it was a hot and sunny day and they didn't like it, then they could go indoors, instead of having air fleets laying a temporary pollutant mask over us.
My problem isin't with all the above mentioned stuff, it's that big fucking governments fuck up big time. Big fucking governments are the biggest danger to peoples health. So really, my objection is to big government, pretty much everything that pisses me off is a side effect of tyranny.
--------------------
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Visionary Tools]
#10666059 - 07/12/09 08:45 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
yeah i was just dicking around. seriously we are fucked. I'm just trying to not make a huge deal about it. OK imagine damn that's true. we are being robbed and now the children will suffer.................................................................................feel it now? Please don't hide from this. One day you will learn.
I just had this mystical epiphany. I realized that we have all these modern problems because we always support groups and not form our own. Organizations are so impersonal now they don't rouse any feelings of dedication. Are you getting this?
Say I create a group. The group's goal is capturing the essence of life. Enlightenment? Depends if you want to.
As you begin to live a more meditative life, there are sharp increases in awareness. Hopefully this spurs a desire for a more sattvic mind set. Welcome to the mind-body connection
Ayurveda, science of life. The authority. Divinely inspired.
Now if you can achieve perfect health and wealth then you achieve a higher mental bliss from that. When you feel and KNOW your happy.
Realizing that this state of constant mindfulness is the natural state of being, the goal of the group is now perpetuating the balance of nature with their body. not just teaching people but having it, why wouldn't you want to it's fun. that's what the goal is right?
the goal of humans, subconsciously, is to achieve orgasm. not only sexual but symbolic orgasm, surrendering to a pleasure
so we realize that's the goal but as one practices meditative life and balances vatta the orgasm becomes more refined.
"I want to have sex with my girlfriend, but not in this dirty room, I need to clean up"
this is basic. imagine a little valley in the foothills of the mountains. there are nice fields. you build a house there. the house uses solar power. it has a water heater that is electric and over 100% efficient. it uses that and proper insulation and design that it is able to cool/heat the entire house. you have tourmaline laced into the house everywhere. in the paint, bedding, carpet. this will prevent molds, bugs, etc and strengthen the aura.
your garage has an infrared sauna. you have some kettles bells, pull up bar, punching bag, rings. these are fun and make you beastly
you have ionized water on tap. the pipes are also laced with tourmaline.
the house is so well built and incorporates so much good feung shui that the immediate surroundings if the house become special to the owner. his will is more likely implemented in these fields.
there is a green house and garden. in the garden extra care is taken to ensure a habitat that is pest free. introduce various natural predators and use plant based repellents such as essential oils or even living flowers. having chickens walk the garden they will eat bugs and fertilize crops. they also lay eggs and taste good, if allowed to walk about the grounds. ensure they have clean secure housing.
have a milk cow, preferably a herd as they are happier that way. beef perhaps?
treat the cows as the sacred gods they are. the hindus have it right. cows are such sattvic creatures. i think they are such a gift. the raw milk is a complete food that strengthens the body and mind. you can make fresh paneer with that. hell you can make anything you got milk for a long time.
the cows need to be massaged every morning. brushed and given affection. they should reside in clean stables or pasture, whichever they prefer. they need to eat lots of oats and drink a little beer to help make them further docile. also give them fresh alfalfa and of course graze the pastures.
the garden has onions, leeks, broccoli, asparagus, lettuce, cabbage, yams, all kinds of veggies. you harvest a lot.
in the greenhouse you got herbs from all over the world, culinary and medicinal. cannabis. shrooms. ethnogens.
inside sprout. you can easily sprout 5 pounds every 2-3 days.
you have a compost barrel to use in your garden and for potted plants. you case the garden with grass clipping to prevent weeding.
electric car. orgone machine. chembuster.
lots of food and herbs stalked up. i don't know about you but i can cook some damn good shit.
now sitting in your PERFECT castle you get done with your daily chores and pampering.
you just get to chill and drink exotic tea after work and chores. in this moment you are so happy. you realize this is the way kids should be raised.
attention to these details of health and wealth and balance really promotes spiritual growth of profound levels. Why don't I share this?
well that is the group. if we all kept creating our version of the perfect ideal and forming bonds around.
OK important part bonds. you love the people around you. you share this with families, but do other families do this of course. and there are nice people who would love to learn this too.
we can SHARE THE SAME GOAL and we will prosper together. If the goal of the group is to prosper on all levels, in each moment then this will promote a role of active engagement in life.
When we sign up with another group we lose power because WE are not represented by the group as they have not given proper council or consider you. they also don't define goals, enjoying life is something that industry always take s advantage of but never confronts on a deep level.
look at eastern families and Western families. any aware person can tell you it is because they have totally different internal landscapes. this is reflected in the culture. we need to realize all this blind industry of the olden days is not true science. it is barbaric to destroy the bioshpere. any enlightened person will tell you this. little kids will tell you this. tells you something about enlightened people.
hope this resonated with somebody. i'll post back the more coherent e version when i come doen off this superfood/cannabis/kava kava/valarien/meditative jhana high.
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10666190 - 07/12/09 09:12 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
The link to wiki about the anticoagulant being a rat reppelent, I have a problem with this line of thinking. here is what I think to myself
ok doctors can show in a lab that this is not bad and has an effect which may be beneficial for some people
oh but it was a rat poison?
well thats strange
why would they want to use that
why not eat your fruits and vegtables and take some herbal medicine?
that seems like a good idea. it is cleaner then all those industrial chemicals
why do these people insist that is the best medicine?
why don't we focus more on nutrition
instead of weird chemicals
?
What the fuck is an herbal medicine such that "weird chemicals" are excluded?
I think its hillarious that your claiming people should eat fruits and vegtebals and take whatever the hell "herbal medicines" are (warfarin isn't one? How do you know?) rather than taking anticoagulants. If you had your way, you'd be killing, maiming, and leaving brain damaged a whole swath of our society, and your all hot and bothered about fluoride?
Give me a break.
Why would they use a rat poison? Did it ever occur to you that the same mechanism that kills rats might be medically useful? No, that's impossible, its a rat poison! Once that label is applied to something it fundamentally changes. The chemical knows its a rat poison, and starts acting mean.
Your whoel argument seems based on ignorance and some illogical distinction between whatever "herbal medicine" is and what "weird chemicals" are.
The truly hilarious thing is that your whole tirade ignored the fact that warfarin is an herbal medicine.
Quote:
why would they want to use that
why not eat your fruits and vegtables and take some herbal medicine?
that seems like a good idea. it is cleaner then all those industrial chemicals
Oops... guess they are using "herbal medicines"... just like you said. So you take it all back now? Cuz "herbal medicines" are good right? They certainly aren't "weird chemicals" right?
So now, despite everything you said, warfarin is a great drug, and no longer a "weird chemical"? Wow, funny how the same damn shit you were bitching about is suddenly a great drug, and you didn't even know it!
(I'd really like to know how you've decided that herbal medicines are cleaner than industrially produced drugs, as you claimed. Please explain what your defining "clean" to be and provide your evidence)
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10668332 - 07/13/09 09:43 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Water may be toxic in certain doses, but does anyone doubt that we need water? Or that H2O may in some way be harmful? Should we conduct tests to determine if we are getting too much water in our diet?
Some substances are different. Fluoride is more toxic than lead. If someone started adding lead to water because it could potentially save money, and potentially provide more health, without doing long term testing, wouldn't that be a concern?
Water we can't live without. There is no data which suggests that we couldn't live without fluoride. It happens to be in the water, just as lead is. The maximum safe lead level in water is listed at 50 part per billion. Yet a substance which is listed as more toxic than lead is allowed at concentrations up to 1.2 ppm?
I have not suggested that fluoride at 1ppm is toxic, only that it might be, and that there is reason for this possibility. The AMA agrees with me. They won't back up the safety of fluoridation.
It would be good if long term studies were conducted. It would be better if we were already getting results from long term studies started in 1945, but there aren't any. There was only enough study to indicate that 1ppm would cause "acceptable levels of fluorosis of the teeth". Brilliant. I'm glad my teeth won't be too mottled.
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10668674 - 07/13/09 10:50 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
The link to wiki about the anticoagulant being a rat reppelent, I have a problem with this line of thinking. here is what I think to myself
ok doctors can show in a lab that this is not bad and has an effect which may be beneficial for some people
oh but it was a rat poison?
well thats strange
why would they want to use that
why not eat your fruits and vegtables and take some herbal medicine?
that seems like a good idea. it is cleaner then all those industrial chemicals
why do these people insist that is the best medicine?
why don't we focus more on nutrition
instead of weird chemicals
?
What the fuck is an herbal medicine such that "weird chemicals" are excluded?
I think its hillarious that your claiming people should eat fruits and vegtebals and take whatever the hell "herbal medicines" are (warfarin isn't one? How do you know?) rather than taking anticoagulants. If you had your way, you'd be killing, maiming, and leaving brain damaged a whole swath of our society, and your all hot and bothered about fluoride?
Give me a break.
Why would they use a rat poison? Did it ever occur to you that the same mechanism that kills rats might be medically useful? No, that's impossible, its a rat poison! Once that label is applied to something it fundamentally changes. The chemical knows its a rat poison, and starts acting mean.
Your whoel argument seems based on ignorance and some illogical distinction between whatever "herbal medicine" is and what "weird chemicals" are.
The truly hilarious thing is that your whole tirade ignored the fact that warfarin is an herbal medicine.
Quote:
why would they want to use that
why not eat your fruits and vegtables and take some herbal medicine?
that seems like a good idea. it is cleaner then all those industrial chemicals
Oops... guess they are using "herbal medicines"... just like you said. So you take it all back now? Cuz "herbal medicines" are good right? They certainly aren't "weird chemicals" right?
So now, despite everything you said, warfarin is a great drug, and no longer a "weird chemical"? Wow, funny how the same damn shit you were bitching about is suddenly a great drug, and you didn't even know it!
(I'd really like to know how you've decided that herbal medicines are cleaner than industrially produced drugs, as you claimed. Please explain what your defining "clean" to be and provide your evidence)
herbal medicine unlike pills create balane in the body. generally all herbs have a whole cocktail of "chemicals" that balance side effects of the main compound. they round out the whole experience. let me give you an example.
you have high blood pressure and need to take a pill
oh but the pill causes water retention problems so you need some lasiks
the lasiks leeches potassium from the body now you need that
or you could just take ONE herb
herbs are plants
pharmaceutical drugs are synthetic poisons
and no warfin is not an herb. a compound that was very similar was made by plants and people come and tinker with it so they can patent in
it becomes toxic in that process
why not just leave it the fuck alone and use the plant?
you just sound all angry now. like news flash allopathic medicine doesn't
i was teriiblly ill and none of them could help me
i cuered myself and you can guess how I did it
it doesn't work for a lot of people
but ya don't see that on tv
i mean really do I need to tell you the difference.
you are already so gone that nothing I ca say will bring you back
herbs are gentle
pharms are ruff
and I didn't see any evidence that warfin was a herbal medicine
--------------------
ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10668709 - 07/13/09 10:55 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
i was teriiblly ill and none of them could help me
i cuered myself and you can guess how I did it
it doesn't work for a lot of people
but ya don't see that on tv
I doubt you want people discussing your claims, so why are you making them? Your conclusions, again, are not evidence, and I doubt you want us discussing the facts and alternate theories, so why not just leave it be?
If you have some evidence for all the baseless claims you've made, then lets hear it. So far you've backed up nothing you've said.
|
Existence
Stranger
Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 362
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10668941 - 07/13/09 11:46 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
herbal medicine unlike pills create balane in the body. generally all herbs have a whole cocktail of "chemicals" that balance side effects of the main compound. they round out the whole experience. let me give you an example.
Dr. Andrew Weil has a good book about the difference between a plant like the poppy vs. the isolated ingredient such as heroin. I believe it is called "the marriage of the sun and moon". You might enjoy it.
Things like the fact that people who chew coca leaves are much less likely to become addicted than a cocaine user. Coca leaves are used for diarrhea and constipation. Eating a plant can have natural preventions to overdose such as causing purging and providing other unpleasant side effects.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10669944 - 07/13/09 02:42 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
you have high blood pressure and need to take a pill
oh but the pill causes water retention problems so you need some lasiks
the lasiks leeches potassium from the body now you need that
or you could just take ONE herb
Which herb is it that lower blood pressure? As effectively and safely as a pill?
Quote:
and no warfin is not an herb. a compound that was very similar was made by plants and people come and tinker with it so they can patent in
it becomes toxic in that process
why not just leave it the fuck alone and use the plant?
It becomes toxic? Why wasn't it toxic before? Because it's in a plant it somehow wasn't toxic? You know that warfarin/coumarin was discovered because cows were chewing on mouldy clover and dying? They discovered it as a poison first, then later found out that in lower doses it treats thrombosis. Your claim that it was a healthy herb first then made toxic by man is, well, ridiculous.
Quote:
Rahz said:
Some substances are different. Fluoride is more toxic than lead. If someone started adding lead to water because it could potentially save money, and potentially provide more health, without doing long term testing, wouldn't that be a concern?
Water we can't live without. There is no data which suggests that we couldn't live without fluoride. It happens to be in the water, just as lead is. The maximum safe lead level in water is listed at 50 part per billion. Yet a substance which is listed as more toxic than lead is allowed at concentrations up to 1.2 ppm?
Sounds like lead is actually more toxic than fluoride, then. Have you got evidence to back up your claim that it's the other way around?
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Existence
Stranger
Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 362
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10670063 - 07/13/09 02:58 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
and no warfin is not an herb. a compound that was very similar was made by plants and people come and tinker with it so they can patent in
it becomes toxic in that process
why not just leave it the fuck alone and use the plant?
It becomes toxic? Why wasn't it toxic before? Because it's in a plant it somehow wasn't toxic? You know that warfarin/coumarin was discovered because cows were chewing on mouldy clover and dying? They discovered it as a poison first, then later found out that in lower doses it treats thrombosis. Your claim that it was a healthy herb first then made toxic by man is, well, ridiculous.
Warfarin is not coumarin. Warfarin is a synthetic derivative of coumarin.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Existence]
#10670101 - 07/13/09 03:03 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, but the herbal version, coumarin (actually dicoumarin), kills cattle. I don't see how it's any safer than warfarin. They both do the same things.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Existence
Stranger
Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 362
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10670146 - 07/13/09 03:08 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I am not siding with anyone. It's just pharmaceutical companies can't patent plants so they tweak the molecule so they can patent it. It may be better or worse than the plant. That could be what he means by they make it toxic.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Existence]
#10670177 - 07/13/09 03:11 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, I know what you're saying. But there's nothing to indicate that occurred here. Warfarin is more potent than dicoumarin, and probably more stable. Besides, this was done at a university, not a medical company (and it was in the 40s & 50s, before most of that patenting really started).
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,197
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10672190 - 07/13/09 08:58 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rahz said:
Some substances are different. Fluoride is more toxic than lead. If someone started adding lead to water because it could potentially save money, and potentially provide more health, without doing long term testing, wouldn't that be a concern?
Water we can't live without. There is no data which suggests that we couldn't live without fluoride. It happens to be in the water, just as lead is. The maximum safe lead level in water is listed at 50 part per billion. Yet a substance which is listed as more toxic than lead is allowed at concentrations up to 1.2 ppm?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like lead is actually more toxic than fluoride, then. Have you got evidence to back up your claim that it's the other way around?
The generally sited reference is a comparison of LD50 administered orally in rats, the data of which is found in: Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products, 5th edition. I don't have a copy to verify the claim, but I did look around for LD50 references.
Arsenic 14 mg/kg
Sodium Fluoride 44 mg/kg - 52 mg/kg
I could not find an LD50 oral-rat of pure lead, but most of the lead compounds I found were at least 100 mg/kg. One lead compound was listed at 42 mg/kg.
Look around if you want. You may not find an exact comparison, but that's not really the point.
Stating that water is also toxic as a rebuttal, is ignoring how toxic fluoride really is. Fluoride is very toxic. If the citations I gave previously are acceptable, It seems that some in the professional community are leaning towards .7ppm as a safe limit, which is almost half as much as the 1.2ppm allowable by law in the US, and of course some in the professional community have had it banned as an additive in their countries. Are we to assume they're all paranoid, and that fluoride is perfectly safe at 1ppm?
I submit that common sense suggests that fluoride at 1ppm might be too much... because fluoride is very toxic, unlike water which we drink at almost 1 million parts per million.
--------------------
rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Rahz]
#10673316 - 07/14/09 01:08 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
You're continuing to make the mistake of assuming the potency of a toxic compound is a direct indicator of how much harm it does at any dose. But that doesn't make any sense. Yes, if you drink a litre of water, you'll be fine, while if you consume a litre of fluoride, or lead, you'll probably die. But this is a pointless comparison because no one takes that much. It'd be like me saying that LSD is more harmful than THC.
You can only argue about the harmful effects of fluoride at 1ppm by examining the effects of fluoride at 1ppm.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,361
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10673346 - 07/14/09 01:18 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
herbal medicine unlike pills create balane in the body
Balane is highly toxic and difficult to get rid of.
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,361
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10673353 - 07/14/09 01:22 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
So far you've backed up nothing you've said.
No, but he is following the Believer's Credo by constantly changing the subject before he can get nailed down.
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10673369 - 07/14/09 01:29 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Balane is chemically related to Orgone but more harmful. It was discovered in the 5th century BC by the Phoenician demon-god Baal, from which it takes its name, and its manufacture formed an major part of the Phoenician economy until the fall of Carthage.
The things you learn here.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,361
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10673379 - 07/14/09 01:32 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I am most impressed. You are a veritable cornucopia of scientific and historical information.
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
Existence
Stranger
Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 362
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10673577 - 07/14/09 04:07 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
So far you've backed up nothing you've said.
No, but he is following the Believer's Credo by constantly changing the subject before he can get nailed down.
If only Jesus was so clever.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,539
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10674306 - 07/14/09 09:00 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
The link to wiki about the anticoagulant being a rat reppelent, I have a problem with this line of thinking. here is what I think to myself
ok doctors can show in a lab that this is not bad and has an effect which may be beneficial for some people
oh but it was a rat poison?
well thats strange
why would they want to use that
why not eat your fruits and vegtables and take some herbal medicine?
that seems like a good idea. it is cleaner then all those industrial chemicals
why do these people insist that is the best medicine?
why don't we focus more on nutrition
instead of weird chemicals
?
What the fuck is an herbal medicine such that "weird chemicals" are excluded?
I think its hillarious that your claiming people should eat fruits and vegtebals and take whatever the hell "herbal medicines" are (warfarin isn't one? How do you know?) rather than taking anticoagulants. If you had your way, you'd be killing, maiming, and leaving brain damaged a whole swath of our society, and your all hot and bothered about fluoride?
Give me a break.
Why would they use a rat poison? Did it ever occur to you that the same mechanism that kills rats might be medically useful? No, that's impossible, its a rat poison! Once that label is applied to something it fundamentally changes. The chemical knows its a rat poison, and starts acting mean.
Your whoel argument seems based on ignorance and some illogical distinction between whatever "herbal medicine" is and what "weird chemicals" are.
The truly hilarious thing is that your whole tirade ignored the fact that warfarin is an herbal medicine.
Quote:
why would they want to use that
why not eat your fruits and vegtables and take some herbal medicine?
that seems like a good idea. it is cleaner then all those industrial chemicals
Oops... guess they are using "herbal medicines"... just like you said. So you take it all back now? Cuz "herbal medicines" are good right? They certainly aren't "weird chemicals" right?
So now, despite everything you said, warfarin is a great drug, and no longer a "weird chemical"? Wow, funny how the same damn shit you were bitching about is suddenly a great drug, and you didn't even know it!
(I'd really like to know how you've decided that herbal medicines are cleaner than industrially produced drugs, as you claimed. Please explain what your defining "clean" to be and provide your evidence)
herbal medicine unlike pills create balane in the body. generally all herbs have a whole cocktail of "chemicals" that balance side effects of the main compound. they round out the whole experience. let me give you an example.
you have high blood pressure and need to take a pill
oh but the pill causes water retention problems so you need some lasiks
the lasiks leeches potassium from the body now you need that
or you could just take ONE herb
herbs are plants
pharmaceutical drugs are synthetic poisons
and no warfin is not an herb. a compound that was very similar was made by plants and people come and tinker with it so they can patent in
it becomes toxic in that process
why not just leave it the fuck alone and use the plant?
you just sound all angry now. like news flash allopathic medicine doesn't
i was teriiblly ill and none of them could help me
i cuered myself and you can guess how I did it
it doesn't work for a lot of people
but ya don't see that on tv
i mean really do I need to tell you the difference.
you are already so gone that nothing I ca say will bring you back
herbs are gentle
pharms are ruff
and I didn't see any evidence that warfin was a herbal medicine
I spent over 25 years in the natural health care industry selling herbs among other things. I've tried and used just about all of it. While I think herbs are of some value I have grave doubts as to the healing power of most of the claims made for them. I doubt (from vast experience) that most of them do much.
But I have discovered something amazing. It's called the placebo effect and it can be strong. Other than that, a lot of exercise and eating healthy food, and a low stress lifestyle is what really heals IMO.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
Arden
לנשום
Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,648
Loc: Α & Ω
|
Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Icelander]
#10681006 - 07/15/09 09:39 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Though I'm still not buying it, the information below is a bit more organized than some of the other attempts I have seen.
-----------
Chemtrails Are: Persistent lines of chemical-infused aerosol spray dispersals from typically unmarked planes which are now seen in the sky all over the world. Unlike normal jet contrails formed from water vapor, chemtrails spread to form a thick blanket of cloud cover, held together by polymer fibers until they reach the ground, contaminating crops, water supplies and humans with radioactive soft metals and dessicated red blood cells which contain active human pathogens.
People across the world are noticing planes crossing back and forth in the sky leaving in their wake a trail of vapor that does not evaporate. These are not your normal commercial airlines following a preordained path from city to city. The mysterious unmarked planes leave smoke-like trails behind them that spread until by the afternoon they have blossomed and grown until the skies have become overcast. Officials from the Air Traffic Control the EPA and the Air Force will not respond to questions regarding this phenomenon.
|
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit 
Reply 
