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 ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
 
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
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 Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: LunarEclipse]
#10578824 - 06/26/09 07:11 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
wow so scary.
so you're saying you're not watching the movie?
When the fuck did i say that either be a part of the solution or say stupid things methinks u might be involved with the latter effort
soulotion?
chembusters!
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ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
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ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10578876 - 06/26/09 07:22 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
so why are chemtrails so controversial?
how do we feel about that?
I'm guessing it's because the people who claim chemtrails are real are more adamant than they should be given the evidence. It's fine to think that they are possible (that's what having an open mind is about) but the evidence isn't very compelling. Yet it is compelling to some people, and they are very vocal about it. To everyone else this is irrational, which is why it appears controversial.
I'd argue that it's not really controversial at all. Some people think they're real, most people don't. No controversy there.
LunarEclipse: shut up. He wasn't talking to you.
You're right some people freak out and overreact to the notion and implications of chemtrails. I see them as having realized the problem, but they have no idea what to do about it. frustration naturally ensues.
and I think you are wrong about the evidence. it is compelling, you just have to look at it first. that's why I posted that doc. i feel it represents the actual evidence and not people running there mouth
maybe that's why I used to get upset over this? I feel that if any well thought person saw this evidence they would be convinced (or would have some serious questions to work out). I think most live in denial though. and I think it is because they haven't felt the issue, their logic keeps them from doing so
I can't deny what the video is saying, I have to accept that something is wrong and go from there. It's not my job to freak out about the "end of the world", that's what illuminatus wants everybody to do. disaster freakouts = $$$ and control
I have to spread healing on all levels. once people have experienced it, they start to understand this new (actually ancient) art of living.
namaste and god bless
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ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10579062 - 06/26/09 07:57 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
I can't deny what the video is saying
I think that's the whole problem. Videos are not a good way of disseminating information because they don't encourage alternative viewpoints - all you get is the filmmaker's viewpoint.
Issues like this are best addressed through informed debate, allowing each side to respond to the opposing points, with evidence. That's the way science works, for instance. Videos (and books) are the opposite. I think they're modern-day sophism.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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 johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10579438 - 06/26/09 09:18 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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yes, exactly.
Videos are very long and VERY VERY VERY VERY low information density. Just hours of conclusory statements and random data- at best they'll give you more conclusory statements regarding proof but never actually disclose the data and anaylsis. They'll just say "tests show heavy metals in the sky! This shows chemtrails are likely real!" when that's totally worthless. I've asked chief for something, videos included, that actually disclose the data, methdology, analysis methods, and conclusions with explanation, but he's not provided anything. I'm guessing he's unaware of any legitimate analysis as well.
The issue isn't wanting to know what these people believe, but rather why. Too bad they just parrot claims over and over  as if that was at all helpful
This isn't hard, like I said I did more rigorous investigations in my middle school science projects with baking soda volcanos. These videos are all falsh and pizzazz and no substance. Would it kill these folks to actually state a hypothesis and then test it, or to study something and disclose the method, data, and findings?
Chief- it seems like your trying to portray the "your crazy" responses as the objections to these beliefs. You referenced them in your original post and did so again now. If you really care to convince people legitimate problems with the 'evidence' have been discussed. Why not satisfy those concerns instead of trying to make this about people oppressing you or brushing you off? I'm quite sure the reason people think your crazy is cuz you believe this stuff on no legitimate evidence.
Seems like qubit may have a point regarding suggesting your seeking oppression. Why else would you focus on obviously irrelevant personalisms in the face of serious objections that have never been satisfied or rebutted?
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ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,409
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 months, 10 days
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10587837 - 06/28/09 04:57 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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idk what to say. the video is good. it has lots of evidence. you wouldnt know because you won't watch it. i don't understand how you can say that i don't provide evidence but i give you a two hour documentary that is very well thought out imo. i wouldn't post it if i didn't think it contained evidence. there really isn't anything else i can do. time will show you. when you realize the truth just do me a favor and think back to this thread. it is so scary to see people who parade around as intelligent be such fucking morons. guess it's not ur fault though.
IF YOU REALLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND THE ARGUMENT THEN WATCH THE FUCKING VIDEO
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ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#10587935 - 06/28/09 05:22 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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If you cant even synthesize and present the evidence in the video then you don't understand it.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,361
Loc: Luxor
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10588018 - 06/28/09 05:41 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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One doesn't have to understand something to be convinced of its veracity. 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: DieCommie]
#10588394 - 06/28/09 06:56 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Qubit said:
If you cant even synthesize and present the evidence in the video then you don't understand it.
Right, plus, I have watched part of it, maybe ten minutes of it.
It was very slow, and very useless.
If there is a portion that discusses the data, methodlogy, analysis of such, and their conclusions with reasoning given that can be verified, then point me to it.
I'm not going to search out someone's argument for them.
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,331
Last seen: 23 hours, 57 minutes
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10589981 - 06/28/09 10:55 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm almost to the point of watching it, just so I can present an argument for him.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Kickle]
#10590151 - 06/28/09 11:26 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Goodluck, its very long and apparently has very little information.
Just some guy taking pictures of the sky and issuing edicts about the cause.
This is likely why our proponent here can't come up with any evidence at all for their existance beyond conclusory statements without any evidentiary support.
I just don't understand why these people accept "these are chemtrails, they aren't contrails" as great evidence but won't accept "these aren't chemtrails" or "chemtrails don't exist".
Their definition of probative evidence changes based upon their prejudices, it seems. I can think of no other explanation for the dirth of evidence. I just skimmed through the first two parts, and it was just as I said: soem guy showing pictures of the sky and claiming things without any evidence at all.
Boy, science sure coudl move faster if we could just make discoveries by naked claims unsupported by evidence, couldn't it? 
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,331
Last seen: 23 hours, 57 minutes
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10590188 - 06/28/09 11:35 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Don't wish me luck just yet, I said 'almost' 
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10590415 - 06/29/09 12:27 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Boy, science sure coudl move faster if we could just make discoveries by naked claims unsupported by evidence, couldn't it?
Nah we'd get slowed down by having to watch videos all the time...
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,539
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10590649 - 06/29/09 01:28 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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i dont understand how otherwise intelligent people can be so fucking closed minded when it comes to government conspiracy.
Why would anyone disbelieve this stuff about chemtrails? it makes perfect sense from every angle...
the american government destroyed its own fucking buildings and claimed it was a terrorist attack. yet we all know people still like to think that some arabs took over planes and comandeered them into the trade centres.
no one wants to believe that they are just pawns in the greater scheme of a grand empire. But when has the world ever been different? The most prosperous times in history are also the times when huge empires with massive wealth and also massive slavery occur. Today it is no difference, but the leaders of the empire are no longer visible to the public.
Ever since the start of the 20th century, weapons systems are one of the biggest industries in the world.
you dont have to believe any of the conclusions that individuals have about WHAT the chemtrails are for.
but to deny they EXIST
BrAiNwAsH
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Noteworthy]
#10590688 - 06/29/09 01:39 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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One could argue that those who believe the government is spraying chemicals from commercial aircraft are brainwashed. The evidence is poor. There's no motive. Why would you believe the theories?
I'm not closed-minded, I'm just skeptical. I will change my mind if presented with reproducible data from a reputable lab, showing the analysis of chemicals collected from one of these contrails. Until then, they are nothing more than ice particles suspended in the air as far as I'm concerned.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: zouden]
#10590711 - 06/29/09 01:50 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Boy, science sure coudl move faster if we could just make discoveries by naked claims unsupported by evidence, couldn't it?
Nah we'd get slowed down by having to watch videos all the time...
Yeah, probably the only serious problem with my plan, but maybe we could stream youtube, the crucible of scientific progress, into the labs?
We could get rid of all those journals too, youtube has a comments section for peer review.
Quote:
Noteworthy said:
i dont understand how otherwise intelligent people can be so fucking closed minded when it comes to government conspiracy.
huh?
How is asking for evidence being closed minded? Isn't accepting shit without any evidence the definition of a closed mind? Just blindly grabbing whatever and shutting yourself off to the possiblity that it is incorrect?
Quote:
Why would anyone disbelieve this stuff about chemtrails? it makes perfect sense from every angle...
Probably because nobody is able to provide any evidence for them. In your rambling post about irrelevencies you've not provided any, and nor has anyone else.
Showing pictures with a narrator declaring various conclusions is not evidence of any probative nature. You couldn't even replicate these guys findings if you wanted to cuz you don't know what they are.
I think your being a little closed minded here, you've not even addressed the objections and instead ramble about 9/11 and other irrelevancies.
Open your mind, brah
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,539
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10590759 - 06/29/09 02:10 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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what sort of evidence do you need?
im going to state these two basic premises, if you need evidence for them, it can be obtained. Please state whether you think these claims are unsubstantiated
1.these large trails of (some sort of) airborn substance exist.
2.they have no accepted purpose
thus we are left with the suspicion that something is going on. exactly what is going on is another issue. but we can tell some things - we can see that these clouds are composed of chemicals (due to the way they linger in the sky and persist in conditions that do not support traditional condensation release trails from commercial flights)
and are being released for a purpose (due to the way that they appear in patterns and not in ways that commercial flights navigate)
now, we know that the government is aware of this occuring because they have awareness of what planes are flying in the sky and what their purpose is. (if not before 9/11, then at least since)
You dont have to believe that the government is doing anything sinister.
all you have to realise is that the government is allowing the deposit of chemical vapours across vast areas of their own land, and the public has no access to information regarding what those vapour trails are who is responsible for them.
You can always say 'yes but it is more likely that the government is letting it happen because it is good for us, not bad for us'
thats different to claiming that these things dont exist lol.
i started noticing some the other day and I want to know what the hell is being deposited over my skyline. here in sydney. i thought some rich bastard was just wasting air-writing by flying in a straight line.
maybe you think that the public does not deserve information like that?
sure, just lay your cards out so you can have a position that is not just 'oh the funded media has not raised my concern on this topic so therefor it probably does not exist'.
AS FOR MOTIVES...
lol i wont begin to try to convince anyone that the government (ie the global network of 'First-World' parliaments, congress, bankers and industry superpowers) is different to how it has portrayed itself to its people over the past 100 years since 1913. if you are asking 'what motive would the government have to test its technological capabilities?' then i scratch my head at you
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Noteworthy]
#10590815 - 06/29/09 02:36 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
1.these large trails of (some sort of) airborn substance exist.
2.they have no accepted purpose
thus we are left with the suspicion that something is going on.
Wait, how do you make that jump? Clouds have no accepted purpose either. Are you suspicious of them?
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
Edited by zouden (06/29/09 02:43 AM)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Noteworthy]
#10590827 - 06/29/09 02:45 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
1.these large trails of (some sort of) airborn substance exist.
2.they have no accepted purpose
thus we are left with the suspicion that something is going on.
Products of engines have a purpose in the sense that the engine does.
Either way, your premises only reach the conclusion that something exists in teh air without acknowledged purpose, hardly supportive of chemtrails. That's just as supportive as contrails- no purpose by themselves excpet to the extent they are consequences of the engine.
The entire rest of your post is dependant upon a presumption you've no sustained by way of these premises (which I dispute anyways).
This is not a philsophical problem, you can not get around that. You will have to have some observational data supporting your favored explanation as probable, you can not surmount this by thought experiment or supposition, as the vary suppositions need demsontrating to tie the conclusion to the real world.
I've allready listed the usual course of things- collecting data with a stated and valid methodology and analyzing the data and providing the conclusions and analysis for open critique and so they may be reproduced. Untill these things are done and disclosed were left with your suppositions or with random pictures of unknown relevance and naked conclusions supported by nothing at all.
My counter argument of "studies show these to be contrails" or "chemtrails don't exist" are just as valid as these unsupported conclusions.
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Sentient#6
Servant of the Gods
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 376
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: johnm214]
#10590886 - 06/29/09 03:45 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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I watched a good portion of the video, and most of it wasn't just the narrator showing camcorder footage and rambling on about how mysterious the plane trails are. While it did stretch on for an awkward amount of time in the beginning, the video later contained lots of interesting visual/audio clips of various governments officials/"formal" activists on the subject matter.
But none of it matters...
Even if the government was pumping dangerous chems in the air, (I'm not saying they are or aren't, it wouldn't surprise me too much either way) what the fuck could we really do about it? If 9/11 was really was a government setup, (again, same as the contrails/chemtrails) they certainly won't be held accountable anytime soon. Take JFK for example; whatever happened,(disgruntled ex-marine or gov. assassination) our citizen view exploration proved to be useless.
We all bitch and moan and spread awareness/information, but nothing ever really changes from the plan laid down. We're powerless anyway you look at it.
But it's entirely feasible for a portion of Americas crooked and deeply rooted corrupt Government to have done these crimes against it's own nation. Our government has done fucked up shit to its own citizens for a long time; there are MK-Ultra documents that explain a generals interest in pumping aerosol-form LSD into a major American subway, just to see if it could be used as a weapon. They also have documents explaining the horrible experiments carried out on prisoners and mental institution patients for decades without a peep. It's just as bad as Nazi experiments, and the public only has access to a small amount of this kind of data...
If there really is an illuminati-esque-clique of wealthy assholes that are trying to enact global population control; subtly and ingeniously, we could only do as much as we could to prevent a natural disaster from happening. Spread information; debate with little to no practical use, develop some neurosis in order to deal with the impending sense of gloom this generation faces, and eventually take whatever force that directly threatens us head on.
The forecast is sure of one thing though...
There's a storm coming.
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Last night I was honored with the Nobel Prize in theoretical physics. This worldwide recognition has given me the opportunity to bring hope to a war-ravaged world. I vowed to myself I would work like a dog at this. But now, it's 10:30 in the morning and I'm just getting out of bed. I did get up earlier around 8:00am, but I just lied in bed for a while, and then...jerked off. I've got to stop masturbating, it makes me too lazy. Stop it Albert...stop it.
~Albert Einstein.
Edited by Sentient#6 (06/29/09 03:49 AM)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
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Re: Please debunk this chemtrail documentary for me [Re: Sentient#6]
#10590919 - 06/29/09 04:08 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Take JFK for example; whatever happened,(disgruntled ex-marine or gov. assassination) our citizen view exploration proved to be useless.
uh, they got the US government to convene a committee to look into the matter and concluded, contrary to the party line of the warren commission, that a conspiracy was most likely the cause of his death, with multiple shooters being likely
I'd say that was a signifigant effect, far from useless, considering how much was invested in the old explanation.
That was all brought about by people bitching
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