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Invisiblecpw1971
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: Entropymancer]
    #10418570 - 05/29/09 08:21 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

lol yeah I just wanna know how to extract from them.
  I used to love the taste of Muscarias... till I puked off them  :puke:


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Yay people can run their mouth and belittle me on here and when I defend myself its not ok.  What a fucking great place this is huh??      Then people can give me bad ratings and when I return the favor  an admin deletes it for them.
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Edited by cpw1971 (05/29/09 08:22 AM)


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: cpw1971]
    #10418594 - 05/29/09 08:27 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Well, ibotenic acid and muscimol are water-soluble, and relatively stable to heat.  For a crude extract your could just make a concentrated tea, boil it down to a small volume, then pour the little bit of remaining liquid in a pyrex pan and pop it in the oven on low (around 200F) to evaporate the rest.  Scrape the resulting gunk into gelcaps and you can pop them without tasting anything (the effects still might make you puke, but you won't have the flavor association).

Getting pure ibotenic acid or muscimol from the mushrooms is a pain, so a crude extract like that is about all I'd recommend.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: Entropymancer]
    #10418696 - 05/29/09 08:51 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, I really don't understand how y'all can like the taste.  Fresh must be considerably better than dried; whenever I eat the dried stuff it's like eating moldy, rotten bread.  :puke:


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InvisibleSwyfty Swyf
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: deCypher]
    #10418782 - 05/29/09 09:14 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

It tastes like chicken jerky.

i have ingested far more repulsive substances.

I read that it's better to let the AM material get all gummy in your mouth to avoid chewing it up.

I practice this, but I don't really know if it's necessary.

Anyway that's the only mildly tough part.

It's like swqallowing a big wad of Big League Chew.


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Offlinelimebus26
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10418854 - 05/29/09 09:26 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Entropymancer  does the yellow fly not look close to the angel death cap ???? i'm sure i read on erowid that the amanita groups cause most of the deaths in the usa


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Offlinelimebus26
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: limebus26]
    #10418928 - 05/29/09 09:45 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

from erowid "Note: Some of the deadliest mushrooms known are in the Amanita genus - do not eat wild mushrooms unless you know what you are doing." i just don't want people dying and that anyone picking them wild should know what they're doing the only experince i have with reds are from online vendor's like i said yellow's grow in my area and can closely resemble angel death caps if you don't know what your doing. i obviously don't know as much on the subject as Entropymancer i'm just trying to get people to be on the side of caution


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Offlinechampinhom
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10418965 - 05/29/09 09:53 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

I have tried them dry--bought online.The high I got from a 7 gram does--made into a tea--was pleasant enough but the smell and taste of the tea was horrendous and 2/3rds into the trip I had to vomit. I think they will never be popular--too high a price-in terms of physical discomfort-- to get into the show.


--------------------
You look like me to me

Most of my beliefs I acquired from my father and from John Wayne, and anything that wasn't ultra tough and ultra cool was to me ultra embarrassing. In fact, I lived in a state of near continuous embarrassment, never measuring up to the ridiculous standards I had accepted without question, applied to a framework of expectations neither I nor anyone else could meet: how I should act, how others should treat me or otherwise comport themselves in my presence, how the days and months and years should unfold in my favor.--J.C.Amberchele


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Invisiblecpw1971
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: Entropymancer]
    #10420791 - 05/29/09 03:24 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

thanks Entropy
  I have some left over from last fall so I will give it a try :cool::thumbup:


--------------------
Yay people can run their mouth and belittle me on here and when I defend myself its not ok.  What a fucking great place this is huh??      Then people can give me bad ratings and when I return the favor  an admin deletes it for them.
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  I SEE HOW THIS PLACE IS


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: limebus26]
    #10421890 - 05/29/09 07:32 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

limebus26 said:
i'm sure i read on erowid that the amanita groups cause most of the deaths in the usa




I don't doubt it. THe deadly amanitas look much like an edible mushroom. Those death aren't due to misidentified fly agarics, I guarantee it.

Quote:

limebus26 said:
Entropymancer  does the yellow fly not look close to the angel death cap ????




Nope. See for yourself:

Yellow Fly Agarics


Amanita muscaria var. formosa


Amanita amerimuscaria var. guesowii



Death caps


Amanita phalloides


Amanita verna


Amanita virosa



Aside from the grossly obvious physical differences in appearance, also note the pronounced volva.0 on the deadly varieties, while the fly agarics have only the concentric fuzzy rings, not a true volva.

The only type you could confuse with deathcaps are Amanita muscaria var. alba:


But, 1.) No one but experienced mycologists pick those anyway, and 2.) They can be very easily distinguished from a deathcap with basic understanding of the physical traits of each (the appearance of the volva of the deathcap, versus the volval remnants of the albino fly agaric, the appearance of spots on the cap, etc.).

I absolutely do not recommend that the layman attempt to ID the white fly agarics... but then again, the average layman has no idea that white fly agarics exist, so it isn't really a danger.

Quote:

limebus26 said:
from erowid "Note: Some of the deadliest mushrooms known are in the Amanita genus - do not eat wild mushrooms unless you know what you are doing." i just don't want people dying and that anyone picking them wild should know what they're doing




I absolutely agree with that. I'd urge everyone to get confirmation on their IDs from the experts over at the mushroom hunting forum (be sure to take picture of the base of the mushroom, it's critical to a proper ID). No one should ever eat any mushroom unless they're 110% certain of the ID, as I said before.

But note the disingenuous tone of that warning from erowid. They say "some of the deadliest mushrooms are in the Amanita genus"... which is absolutely true.  But they're implying that an improper ID might lead to eating a deadly Amanita, which is pretty silly. They look virtually nothing alike. One has spots, the other doesn't; one has a volval collar, the other has concentric fuzzy rings but no true volva.  If you can tell the difference between a fork and a fondue fork, you should be able to tell the difference between a deadly amanita and a fly agaric.

Of course a person could easily mistake an Amanita frostiana or an Amanita crenulata for a yellow fly agaric. But crenulatas and frostianas are only considered poisonous, not deadly poisonous... and I'm even a touch skeptical of the claim that they're poisonous, as they're considered to produce roughly the same "poisoning syndrome" as the fly agaric (which we know is really no more poisonous than alcohol, it's merely intoxicating and stupefying in sufficiently high doses).  Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't test this theory by eating a frostiana or crenulata or gemmata... I merely reserve my skepticism.

Quote:

i'm just trying to get people to be on the side of caution




Me too. I've said many times that you should make absolutely sure you know what you're doing in identifying these mushrooms, don't make the mistake of thinking there aren't any other bright orange mushrooms with white spots besides the fly agaric (because there are!). And don't eat any mushroom whose identity you aren't 110% certain of.

I simply cannot in good conscience encourage caution through deceit and misdirection.  I feel people have the right to plain and candid information when caution is being urged upon them.


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: deCypher]
    #10421908 - 05/29/09 07:36 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Yeah, I really don't understand how y'all can like the taste.  Fresh must be considerably better than dried; whenever I eat the dried stuff it's like eating moldy, rotten bread.  :puke:



The flavor of fresh ones doesn't resemble the flavor of dried ones in any way I can discern.  Fresh ones are delicious, and turn a simple well-flavored meal into absolute heaven in your mouth.

I'm with you on the dried ones: The flavor resembles the smell of a sweaty unwashed scrotum. I just tried to much a few bits a few minutes ago and had to give up and make tea. At least tea you can slam down in a single shot.


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InvisibleSwyfty Swyf
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: Entropymancer]
    #10421915 - 05/29/09 07:38 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Nice.

All the other Amanitas besides the first two muscarias do not have warts, and they don't have the textbook "egg" shape at the base of the stipe.

Is it correct to say that even poisonous red shrooms that have warts can be identified as something other than Amanita muscaria from the base of the stipe?


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10421959 - 05/29/09 07:49 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

In general, yes. But the differences between the base of Amanita muscaria and its lookalikes are much more subtle than the differences between the base of the Amanita muscaria and the deadly Amanitas.

For example, check out Amanita crenulata:


Or Amanita frostiana:


Or Amanita parcivolvata:




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InvisibleSwyfty Swyf
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: Entropymancer]
    #10421999 - 05/29/09 07:58 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

It sounds really tricky to identify Amanita muscaria.

Weiliiiii posted some pics about a week back of some shady looking Amanita muscaria lookalikes.

There were a few different red species that had warts and the same brilliant red, but it seemed that something about the stems looked too woody and cylindrical to be Amanita muscaria.

Why is it that every picture of an actual Amanita muscaria just screams "Amanita muscaria?"


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10422296 - 05/29/09 08:59 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swyfty Swyf said:
It sounds really tricky to identify Amanita muscaria.




It is and it isn't.  There are some convincing lookalikes out there, but if you know exactly what traits you're looking for it's not difficult to make a proper ID.  The differences between fly agarics and their lookalikes can be subtle, but once you've got a solid grasp on exactly what fly agarics look like and its natural variation, the little differences start to look pretty glaring.

Quote:

Swyfty Swyf said:
Why is it that every picture of an actual Amanita muscaria just screams "Amanita muscaria?"




I think the subconscious mind has a pretty good grasp of taxonomy, even if you don't.  Fly agarics are such a distinctive mushroom that a part of your mind recognizes something slightly "off" about the lookalikes, even if you can't put your finger on what it is. (Not to recommend using gut instinct to ID the mushrooms, but I've noticed the same thing about real fly agarics just looking "right" while the lookalikes don't, even before I studied into the differences)


They just look so majestic:



And they're so cute when they're young, look at this li'l guy struggling to get his head aboveground:



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OfflineTeh_Face
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: Entropymancer]
    #10422645 - 05/29/09 09:53 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Entropymancer said:
The warts are not the most potent part, they contain very little. The cuticle (red skin) and the thin yellow layer beneath it are most potent.





Sorry for the misunderstanding, I wasnt trying to say that the warts were the most potent. It was my understanding that the warts faded/disappeared with age and rain, so the more warts meant the more in the prime they were?

I could be wrong.

The lower grade mushrooms also just werent as big or as well preserved as the others, possibly they are all the same, just the best were picked out of that specific litter?

Sorry if thats gibberish, the HBWRs just kicked into full gear...


--------------------
Lemonous petals, dissident play,
Tasting of ergot,
Dancing by night, dying by day.
Blackening mushrooms drink in the rain,
Sinister nightblooms
Wilt with the dawn's welcoming pain.
You will find them in her eyes.

After all, it can only cost you your life, and you got that for free!

So this is how liberty dies... With thunderous applause.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: Entropymancer]
    #10423118 - 05/29/09 11:15 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Is it possible to grow your own Amanitas?  I think I read somewhere that this is difficult because they have a symbiotic relationship with trees in order to survive...


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: deCypher]
    #10424054 - 05/30/09 06:04 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Yup, because they're mycorrhizal, you can't grow them on a home-made substrate like you can with psilocybes.  even if you had a pine growing indoors in a controlled climate, it's unlikely that you could get fly agaric mycellium to take to it, since in the wild, the mycellium of the fly agaric is typically at least 10-20 feet underground.

not that it helps you desert-dwellers, but a spore print scattered around the base of an appropriate type of tree in an Amanita-friendly environment can probably initiate mycellial growth.... I wonder if it might be possible to transplant guessowiii from the east coast to the west this way :strokebeard:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: Entropymancer]
    #10424318 - 05/30/09 08:24 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Do you know of any good books out there that lay out the geographic distribution of Amanitas that would be helpful in finding and picking 'em?  Also a book containing pictures of them for identification would be rather useful; or would all the best info be found online?


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Invisiblecpw1971
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: deCypher]
    #10424472 - 05/30/09 09:06 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

go to your local bookstore. there should be many field guides on wild mushrooms that are in your area.


--------------------
Yay people can run their mouth and belittle me on here and when I defend myself its not ok.  What a fucking great place this is huh??      Then people can give me bad ratings and when I return the favor  an admin deletes it for them.
  WELL FUCK YOU ASSHOLES
  I SEE HOW THIS PLACE IS


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: Fly Agar Mushroom [Re: deCypher]
    #10424650 - 05/30/09 09:51 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

I think all the best info can be found online.  All the mushroom identification guides I've read just give vague generalities. The most explicit description of their range that I've found comes from Rod Tuloss's pages. According to his Amanita muscaria subsp. flavivolvata page (this is the variety that would occur in your area; two of the three mushrooms pictured at the top of the page were found in Arizona):
Quote:

Amanita muscaria subsp. flavivolvata occurs from lower altitudes in Alaska, through southwestern Canada, through the Pacific coastal regions of the US, through the Sierra Nevada and the Rocky Mountains to the "mountain islands" of the desert Southwest in the US and at least as far south as the montane oak forests of Costa Rica. There are also significant populations in the U.S. Gulf Coast region.  Isolated occurrences of red-capped populations  have been noted as far north as Massachusetts on the U.S. Atlantic Coast.  Colombian material may have been imported with pines.  Argentine material that may be this taxon is also, clearly imported, although the symbiont is not known to me...

The species is associated primarily with oak (Quercus) and diverse conifers, but can occur with other deciduous tree genera.




(In my experience, it associates with all kinds of conifers and deciduous trees, not just primarily oak or pine).

Like cpw says, it also wouldn't be a bad idea to check out a mushroom identification guide that's specific to your area and see what they have to say. My guess is that it won't get any more specific than telling you that higher-elevation coniferous forests are your best bet, but it's still worth checking.


As to learning how to identify them, I'm probably biased but I'd recommend the identification guide in my sig. I put it together because I wasn't satisfied with any of the ID guides out there.  Nothing against David Arora, but providing a thorough description of the mushroom without commenting on species of similar appearance and how to tell them apart isn't very useful for a mushroom-noob.  I basically am a mushroom-noob, so I put the guide together for others like me who start out not knowing the first thing about mycology.

It's written specifically with north american fly agarics in mind, and it highlights all the key traits to look for, and also how the various lookalikes differ from the fly agaric in those traits.  Fortunately there don't seem to be any convincing lookalikes that occur in the western US, so misidentification isn't as much of a danger as it is on the east coast, but it's always good to have complete confidence in your IDs.

For a bunch of pictures of western american fly agarics, check out the Mushroom Observer page for Amanita amerimuscaria


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