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 mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
 
Registered: 10/04/08
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 Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausi [Re: laserpig]
#10312833 - 05/09/09 12:14 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Nobody is talking about God...
Seriously laserpig, I highly doubt simple chemicals become complex enough to create life.
There is some source code at work here too.
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 DieCommie
El Guapo
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausi [Re: mushroomhunter10]
#10312880 - 05/09/09 12:25 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushroomhunter10 said:
There is some source code at work here too.
Computer code has been developed using mutations and selection that has striking resemblance to life's mutations and selection. Code that was designed to run as efficiently as possible took 80 lines, after a night of mutations with selection it evolved to run in 20 lines.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9145544#9145544
Time and time again it is shown that random mutations coupled with a selection mechanism can solve problems that intelligence cannot. (this is also the basis of the famous 'monte carlo' simulations that we use to solve many problems)
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mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausi [Re: DieCommie]
#10312924 - 05/09/09 12:35 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Right, but the initial source code could not have written itself.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausi [Re: mushroomhunter10]
#10312948 - 05/09/09 12:41 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Why not? Regardless, Ill reiterate a point I made earlier... Evolution does not deal with the origin of life (that is the origin of the source code) it only deals with the cause of diversity of life. You can argue that life could not start without help all you want, and even if you are right that does not invalidate evolution by natural selection as the means to diversity of life.
Once more: Evolution does not make any claims about abiogenesis. Thus, any idea you have about abiogenesis is irrelevant to the discussion of evolution and intelligent design in the class room.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,358
Loc: Luxor
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausi [Re: DieCommie]
#10312978 - 05/09/09 12:50 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Thus, any idea you have about abiogenesis is irrelevant to the discussion of evolution and intelligent design in the class room.
It is irrelevant to rational discussion; however, the two favorite canards of ID are:
1. Evolution is just a theory.
2. Evolution does not explain the origin of life.
Holding true to this ignorant point of view, unsurprisingly we have seen both 'arguments' in this thread
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mushroomhunter10
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausi [Re: DieCommie]
#10313069 - 05/09/09 01:16 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Qubit said:
Why not? Regardless, Ill reiterate a point I made earlier... Evolution does not deal with the origin of life (that is the origin of the source code) it only deals with the cause of diversity of life. You can argue that life could not start without help all you want, and even if you are right that does not invalidate evolution by natural selection as the means to diversity of life.
I agree on that. It's just that most evolutionists sadly believe that it does explain the origin of life.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,292
Loc: Americas
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: mushroomhunter10]
#10313138 - 05/09/09 01:33 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
*sigh*
Evolutionary Theory does not address abiogenesis.
What do you mean two sides? If you want to add pure fantasy into the mix with science then there are an infinite number of sides.
Quote:
mushroomhunter10 said:
I never knew, until this film, that 250 proteins IN THE RIGHT ORDER are required for minimum life functions.
To me that SCREAMS ID.
Ben Stein is a smart mafaka too, so for somebody so intelligent and well respected in the science community to question the establishment is a breath of fresh air to me.
Ben stein is well respected in teh science community?
And what is the basis for the 250 proteins claim?
What is the right order claim actually referring to? What is "the order"?
Either way, ID seems utterly unscientific for reasons stated by another poster in this thread.
Untill they can produce a hypothesis that actually claims something coherent and concise that can be tested it has nothing to do with science and is just a naked claim from an appeal to incredulity.
I share your amazement that life could have started from nothing, but its not a logical argument given there's nothing to say it didn't and nothing to say it could have started any other way. Beleive whatever you want, just know that their doesn't seem to be any logical claim supporting ID as correct.
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
*sigh*
Evolutionary Theory does not address abiogenesis.
Thank you. it is pointless to criticize a theory with claims it can't answer a question that is irrelevant to its claims.
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mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: johnm214]
#10313186 - 05/09/09 01:48 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Yeah you guys are correct about the abiogenesis and evolutionism connection.
I suppose it's the "well-respected" darwinists/evolutionists that seem to think life sprang into existence autonomously. IE Dawkins...
I think that's why a lot of evolutionists tend to think that evolution explains the beginnings.
Perhaps that's why it's considered so taboo in the classroom.
The basis for the 250 proteins is in the movie... watch it.
If anybody posting has NOT watched the movie then please watch it, then post.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: mushroomhunter10]
#10313609 - 05/09/09 03:42 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said: Consider this: if the descent of man is true we are left with only two choices. Out of fairness and equality we should either treat men as beasts or beasts as men.
We should do neither. Men are evolved beasts; we should be looking to the future and not back to the past.
All organisms are evolved if the descent of man is true. Being evolved puts man and beast on a level playing field. The future or the past has no bearing in this case.
How is this an internal contradiction? Different organisms have different levels of intelligence; we obviously possess some of the highest on this planet. Doesn't change the fact that we're still fundamentally animals with built-in instinctual drives.
Also, for anyone who believes in ID, please explain how the intelligence that designed everything got to be there in the first place.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: deCypher]
#10313619 - 05/09/09 03:45 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Also, for anyone who believes in ID, please explain how the intelligence that designed everything got to be there in the first place.
It could have evolved. 
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: DieCommie]
#10313630 - 05/09/09 03:47 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Right, but then it would be ontologically simpler to say that we evolved rather than invent an additional step in the explanatory chain.
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mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: deCypher]
#10313680 - 05/09/09 04:07 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Nobody knows, but it's taboo to teach and explore anything BUT evolution.
Even when evolution can't explain the beginnings of life, it's still taught that it practically did.
Anyways, we have to stop looking at it as being only this planet. It's a cosmic universal question.
People used to say that because we're human we always felt there is a beginning and an end, but since scientists have figured out that The Universe is expanding then there obviously was a beginning.
Technically, nothing should exist, so there has to be a reason behind it. It didn't just "appear"...
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: mushroomhunter10]
#10313686 - 05/09/09 04:09 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushroomhunter10 said:
Nobody knows, but it's taboo to teach and explore anything BUT evolution.
How can we teach and explore Intelligent Design? Can we observe this Intelligent Designer? Is the theory itself falsifiable?
Teach it in religion class if you wish, but it does not count as science.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: mushroomhunter10]
#10313687 - 05/09/09 04:09 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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It's taboo to teach because, outside of comparative courses, religion has no place in public schools.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: mushroomhunter10]
#10313696 - 05/09/09 04:11 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Even when evolution can't explain the beginnings of life, it's still taught that it practically did.
No its not. Where did you get that idea?
Quote:
Technically, nothing should exist...
wtf? Please explain that technicality, otherwise dont just make up crazy claims.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: DieCommie]
#10313703 - 05/09/09 04:12 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Qubit said:
Quote:
Technically, nothing should exist...
wtf? Please explain that technicality, otherwise dont just make up crazy claims.
I think he's referring to the old adage ex nihilo, nihilo fit or out of nothing, nothing comes. Accounting for the Big Bang is a completely different story than accounting for natural selection and the origin of species, though.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
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Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: deCypher]
#10313714 - 05/09/09 04:17 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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lol, then he is committing the same fallacy yet again because the big bang theory makes no claim as how the universe was created only how it unfurled after creation. Just as evolution doesnt attempt to describe the origin/creation of life, the big bang theory doesnt attempt to explain the origin/creation of the universe.
mushroomhunter10, you should really better understand these theories before making claims about them.
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: DieCommie]
#10313814 - 05/09/09 04:50 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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In the "BIG BANG" theory, there are theories on what the cause was.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausi [Re: C.M. Mann]
#10313854 - 05/09/09 05:04 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Did anyone else find it ironic that the title of the film was No Intelligence Allowed?
ID seems to confuse theory with hypothesis and use a lot of double-speak and nonsense. "Oh you can't test evolution bla bla bla" "Show me evidence" where is the evidence for ID? none? How do you even teach ID in a class "God did it, done."
The worst argument, or should I say assertion from ID is that "It's too complicated to have come about naturally." But no one has ever explained to me why it's too complicated. Do you know how old the universe is? 13.5 billion years is a pretty damn long time.
Just because you can't understand something doesn't mean that some 'intelligent designer' made it. which only begs the question of where did the intelligent designer (God. I've heard some people say ID is not synonymous with God but that's bullshit) come from? Did this intelligent designer just appear? Couldn't be, because 'nothing comes from nothing' right? hmm
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,787
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: C.M. Mann]
#10313884 - 05/09/09 05:12 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
C.M. Mann said:
In the "BIG BANG" theory, there are theories on what the cause was.
Nope, only unsubstantiated hypothesis; none of which are part of the big bang theory.
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