I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. - Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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Icelander
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I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special.
#10115496 - 04/06/09 08:28 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

My evidence for this comes from the studies of Primate behavior. Bonobo's Chimps, Gorillas, humans.

From our basic drives and how we express them and our social structures and basic emotional and mental make up.

This is the book if you care to find out more and in depth. I have found no book more revealing and I give it my highest recommendation. Our Inner Ape by Frans De Waal Check it out if you dare.

"Two-against-one maneuvering is what lends chimpanzee power struggles both their richness and their danger. Coalitions are key. No male can rule by himself, at least not for long, because the group as a whole can overthrow anybody. Chimpanzees are so cleaver about banding together that a leader needs allies to fortify his position as well as the greater community's acceptance. Staying on top is a balancing act between forcefully asserting dominance, keeping supporters happy, and avoiding mass revolt. If this sounds familiar, it's because human politics works exactly the same"

That just a taste of the tip of the ice burg as far as evidence goes. This guy has studied primates for well over twenty years in the field and in captivity. It's one of the most interesting and revealing books I have ever read. You might find just about everything we do as individuals and as a group reflected in these other primate relatives. The contrast between bonobo and chimp behavior is especially revealing as far as violence goes and male vs female hierarchy.

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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker

"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."

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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115518 - 04/06/09 08:32 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I too have studied primates for more than twenty years, mostly in captivity. :tongue:

I largely agree with the findings Frans De Waal has expressed.

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deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115541 - 04/06/09 08:36 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Sure, we're animals. But we're also clearly different from most others; we possess the ability to communicate incredibly advanced concepts through language and we appear to have the ability to recognize our own consciousness and impending mortality. Surely this at least makes us a little special?

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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,358
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115548 - 04/06/09 08:38 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Where does Charlton Heston fit into the scheme of things?

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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Lion]
#10115553 - 04/06/09 08:40 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
I too have studied primates for more than twenty years, mostly in captivity. I largely agree with the findings Frans De Waal has expressed.

What were you doing in captivity? :confused:

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10115557 - 04/06/09 08:40 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

It makes us different not special. Every animal has specific adaptions that help it survive. The language ability is our biggest difference with other primates but not as big as you might think. The book discusses how well other primates communicate using vocal sounds, body language and eye to eye communications.

There is one exception. You are special deCypher. cause you're a mod. :monkeydance:

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10115562 - 04/06/09 08:41 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Lion said:
I too have studied primates for more than twenty years, mostly in captivity. I largely agree with the findings Frans De Waal has expressed.

What were you doing in captivity?

Same thing you are.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10115565 - 04/06/09 08:42 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Where does Charlton Heston fit into the scheme of things?

Good question. I would say much more chimp than bonobo.

Chimp like behavior and survival strategies are the norm IMO. Bonobo strategies would make up the vast minority.

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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115577 - 04/06/09 08:45 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I was speaking of the future when apes inherit the earth.

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deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115580 - 04/06/09 08:45 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Gee I didn't realize I was unique!

Have you ever read John Lilly's Programming and Metaprogramming the Human Biocomputer? He brings up an interesting point that with our sufficiently advanced neural structure we're capable of altering our own programming; either through meditation or psychedelics (in particular LSD-25 and Ketamine). In this fashion we can alter our own consciousness in a self-reflexive feedback loop; a biochemical machine manipulating its own proteins--an interesting parallel can be made with the idea of the Technological Singularity that stipulates once a computer is capable of modifying its own source code to becoming increasingly intelligent the process will exponentially bootstrap itself up to create God in machine form. Perhaps we're capable of doing the same thing and the process will culminate in a global evolution of consciousness?

:gethigh:

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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10115595 - 04/06/09 08:48 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I did read that and it could be true over time. Time that we don't have a lot of IMO.

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deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115615 - 04/06/09 08:51 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

You think we'll kill ourselves off before then?

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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
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Loc: Luxor

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10115654 - 04/06/09 08:57 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Some of us will be doin' the killin' and some us will be doin' the dyin'. You get one guess which group the 'we are all oners' will fall under.

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BlimeyGrimey
Collector of Spores

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10115678 - 04/06/09 09:01 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

The Naked Ape and The Human Zoo by Desmond Morris are also good books comparing humans to chimps.

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I've done no harm, I keep to myself. There's nothing wrong with my state of mental health.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10115705 - 04/06/09 09:04 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
You think we'll kill ourselves off before then?

Well this is another topic but I believe all species go extinct sooner or later. I'm guessing with us it will be sooner. Maybe because we use language it will ultimately be our weak link for survival longevity.;) Now wouldn't that be irony?

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deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10115728 - 04/06/09 09:08 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Some of us will be doin' the killin' and some us will be doin' the dyin'. You get one guess which group the 'we are all oners' will fall under.

Unfortunately if this happened at the Shroomery we skeptics would get slaughtered by the horde of raving believers.

:rabble:

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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115736 - 04/06/09 09:09 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

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This is your drain on brugs.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10115741 - 04/06/09 09:10 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Doubtful, the believers forgot to buy a gun. Us rational folk are ready for anything. :matrix2:

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deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115753 - 04/06/09 09:11 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Doubtful, the believers forgot to buy a gun.

You mean psychedelics and meditation don't give mind powers? And to think I was expecting some blistering psychic warfare from the M&Pers.

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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10115767 - 04/06/09 09:14 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

blistering psychic warfare

Practical demo of belief. I'll take a machine gun and you get 1000 psychic supermen and we can place bets. I'm willing to put up a few hundred grand.

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OrgoneConclusion
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Posts: 29,358
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115796 - 04/06/09 09:20 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Take the $200K and come to Vegas and party!

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This is your drain on brugs.

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Icelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10115808 - 04/06/09 09:22 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I find Vegas boring after about 6 hours.

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deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115855 - 04/06/09 09:31 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said: I'll take a machine gun and you get 1000 psychic supermen and we can place bets.

Technology certainly seems to be the most powerful form of magic, don't it.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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zen buddy
not a buddhist

Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 704

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115897 - 04/06/09 09:41 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
My evidence for this comes from the studies of Primate behavior. Bonobo's Chimps, Gorillas, humans.

From our basic drives and how we express them and our social structures and basic emotional and mental make up.

This is the book if you care to find out more and in depth. I have found no book more revealing and I give it my highest recommendation. Our Inner Ape by Frans De Waal Check it out if you dare.

"Two-against-one maneuvering is what lends chimpanzee power struggles both their richness and their danger. Coalitions are key. No male can rule by himself, at least not for long, because the group as a whole can overthrow anybody. Chimpanzees are so cleaver about banding together that a leader needs allies to fortify his position as well as the greater community's acceptance. Staying on top is a balancing act between forcefully asserting dominance, keeping supporters happy, and avoiding mass revolt. If this sounds familiar, it's because human politics works exactly the same"

That just a taste of the tip of the ice burg as far as evidence goes. This guy has studied primates for well over twenty years in the field and in captivity. It's one of the most interesting and revealing books I have ever read. You might find just about everything we do as individuals and as a group reflected in these other primate relatives. The contrast between bonobo and chimp behavior is especially revealing as far as violence goes and male vs female hierarchy.

I feel it is pretty obvious that although we do resemble these animals we have obviously evolved much further.

Some of us are obviously much more evolved than others. :wink:

I also believe that the use of psychedelic drugs is somehow speeding up this process of evolution. Actually, I am pretty sure that the use of psychedelic drugs goes back far enough that human beings would not be who they are without them.

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The Chronic

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,027

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115915 - 04/06/09 09:46 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

We are animals, no evidence needed?

I agree its a great thing to go through, to realize that you are only an animal & really see & feel that truth.
So its a good thing to point out, but 'evidence'!? :lol:

I saw a docu recently where the chimps were using tools & it shows the kind of societal hierachy etc...it was very cool to watch & realize how not far off we really are in many respects

The more you become aware of your animal nature, the more you begin to transcend it, thats why its so liberating to realize 'i am just an animal' cause in a subconcious way youve already transcended your animal nature by observing it within yourself. To observe it is to place it apart from yourself & transcend it.

This is subconscious for most though, so i don't expect you to 'agree', especially seeing as you don't beleive in all that crap anyway, right? :lol:

Humans have the potential to realize their Buddha nature which is beyond animal nature

No chimpanzee trys to become enlightened...

:peace:

Edited by The Chronic (04/06/09 09:53 AM)

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deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: The Chronic]
#10115922 - 04/06/09 09:47 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
No chimpanzee trys to become enlightened...

Perhaps they already are enlightened, and it is our more complicated, rational mind that makes us unenlightened.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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The Chronic

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,027

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10115933 - 04/06/09 09:50 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

If they were enlightened they wouldn't have been reborn :wink:

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zen buddy
not a buddhist

Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 704

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115935 - 04/06/09 09:50 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
blistering psychic warfare

Practical demo of belief. I'll take a machine gun and you get 1000 psychic supermen and we can place bets. I'm willing to put up a few hundred grand.

I guess this all depends on what you would consider winning. The one with the machine gun might be able to kill everyone around them but who is really better off? Is the guy standing alone with a machine gun surrounded by dead bodies the one who won or the 1000 psychic superman who ascended to a better place? Or maybe the 1000 psychic superman would hear the guy with the machine gun coming and in the interest of survival, 1000 rocks to the head might do the trick.

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zen buddy
not a buddhist

Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 704

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10115965 - 04/06/09 09:55 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Chronic777 said:
No chimpanzee trys to become enlightened...

Perhaps they already are enlightened, and it is our more complicated, rational mind that makes us unenlightened.

ya, ok

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deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: zen buddy]
#10115977 - 04/06/09 09:56 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

, doesn't the animal truly live in the moment?

Shades of Eckharte Tolle's the Power of Now...

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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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The Chronic

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,027

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10116007 - 04/06/09 10:01 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Human beings are the only animal i have come across that are bothered about discovering the ultimate nature of reality

Humans are just animals, but at the same time they have the potential to embody the infinite in physical form

If theres one thing i know, i know that that is possible

:peace:

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deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: The Chronic]
#10116028 - 04/06/09 10:04 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Humans are just animals, but at the same time they have the potential to embody the infinite in physical form

Would you mind elaborating? What does this mean, and how may one go about doing so?

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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: The Chronic]
#10116048 - 04/06/09 10:06 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I

Yes there is strong evidence that we are just another primate. Please present your opposing evidence.

There is no evidence that anyone ever could or ever would transcend their animal nature. The point of this book is that all our actions and emotions are mirrored (to some degree) in our closest primate relatives.

The Buddha's revelation was practical psychology and nothing mystical. From Epictetus onward through Buddha to Ellis.

And while you don't know if any other ape tries to become enlightened since IMO no one does become enlightened it's just a neurotic fantasy anyway.

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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10116145 - 04/06/09 10:19 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I agree we are animals. But show me another animal capable of philosophical dialog about the nature of reality...

We are animals with a neo-cortex and brain that has a large portion devoted to language.

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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10116234 - 04/06/09 10:35 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Babbling incessantly, and ofttimes incoherently, is surely a sign of an advanced intellect. Monkey mouth noises are predominently useful more for social bonding rather than any real communication.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10116236 - 04/06/09 10:35 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

But show me another animal capable of philosophical dialog about the nature of reality...

So? Show me a person who can detect the magnetic fields of the earth while flying under their own power at night over the Atlantic ocean.

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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10116281 - 04/06/09 10:41 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

We cannot fly under our own power, nor does it show intelligence, niether does detecting magnetic fields.

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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10116295 - 04/06/09 10:42 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

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The Chronic

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,027

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10116317 - 04/06/09 10:46 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Humans are just animals, but at the same time they have the potential to embody the infinite in physical form

Would you mind elaborating? What does this mean, and how may one go about doing so?

Humans have the inbuilt search for ultimate truth, we look at the stars & wonder what its all about, we wish to come to complete & ultimate understanding about life. Some don't acknowledge this, but all of us have it inbuilt to find something more, to be completely fulfilled & happy. Everybody wants to be happy.

Im not saying apes don't have this, im sure to some extent all animals have this, im simply saying that humans are actually capable, while in this body to realize that ultimate truth.

The 'something more' that all beings seek, humans are able to find it

If the desire for truth is strong enough then you will find yourself drawn to the infinite in some way, some being who is Awake will be drawn into your presence & show you the Tao, if i say 'you do it like this' it would be ignoring the vast amount of paths there are to 'it'

It came about in this life by yearning so much for it that it was the only thing i wanted, i had to understand the truth of why we all suffer so much, seeing suffering in everything was too much to take so i simply had to find the truth

:peace:

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10116319 - 04/06/09 10:46 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
We cannot fly under our own power, nor does it show intelligence, niether does detecting magnetic fields.

What I'm saying and you're missing is that language and our type of awareness are just physical adaptions to environment and for survival just as all creatures have.

What's so great about the way we think? Would you say most of humanity is emotionally and mentally sound and not neurotic?

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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10116347 - 04/06/09 10:51 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

What's so great about the way we think? Would you say most of humanity is emotionally and mentally sound and not neurotic?

It is pretty damn unique. There is evolutionary adaptation to survive. But what other animals are able to act out of their role, for example humans can sing, dance, paint, write poetry. Basically complete tasks that have nothing to do with surviving, but with intelligence and creativity. Thats what makes our thinking not special, but different.

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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Saidin
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10116395 - 04/06/09 10:57 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
What's so great about the way we think? Would you say most of humanity is emotionally and mentally sound and not neurotic?

But what is the cause of those instabilities and neuroses? Are they inherent is us, or is it our culture and society that has imprinted those distortions upon us?

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What, you ask, was the beginning of it all? And it is this...

Existence that multiplied itself
For sheer delight of being
And plunged into numberless trillions of forms
So that it might
Find
Itself
Innumerably.
-Sri Aubobindo

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The Chronic

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Posts: 11,027

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10116413 - 04/06/09 10:59 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

The Buddha's revelation was practical psychology and nothing mystical.

What was the Buddhas revelation?

:peace:

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10116421 - 04/06/09 11:00 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

What's so great about the way we think? Would you say most of humanity is emotionally and mentally sound and not neurotic?

It is pretty damn unique. There is evolutionary adaptation to survive. But what other animals are able to act out of their role, for example humans can sing, dance, paint, write poetry. Basically complete tasks that have nothing to do with surviving, but with intelligence and creativity. Thats what makes our thinking not special, but different.

It's our ability to express more completely through language that is different. Who says a wolf doesn't "sing" or a chimp "dance"

I think I lost your point when you said "not special but different" I would never deny that there is a difference between primate groups.

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10116459 - 04/06/09 11:05 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Is there any primate celebrity such as Michael Chimpson or Britney Chimps? Me no think so.

--------------------

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: The Chronic]
#10116483 - 04/06/09 11:09 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Quote:

Icelander said:

The Buddha's revelation was practical psychology and nothing mystical.

What was the Buddhas revelation?

That suffering is caused by being neurotic.

The neurotic cannot accept things as they are.

Buddha was not the first of course, check out Epictetus.

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Jethro Tull
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10116517 - 04/06/09 11:13 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
The more you become aware of your animal nature, the more you begin to transcend it, thats why its so liberating to realize 'i am just an animal' cause in a subconcious way youve already transcended your animal nature by observing it within yourself. To observe it is to place it apart from yourself & transcend it.

Consciously realizing that you are an animal, a direct decedent through evolution from primates, is the first step to liberation from animal instincts, and your own mind. It is realizing your true past, and it helps to show how special it is to be where you are, right now.

Humans are similar physically and biologically to primates, but what makes us different from the other groups is how evolved our minds are. The most evident thing that I see is that we humans can voluntarily alter our states of consciousness to reprogram our minds. We can "de-evolve" our minds, and transcend the illusions.

Other animals are immersed in the now, and have enhanced sensory abilities. Still, the human mind is unmatched by animals below us on the evolutionary cycle. These animals may be closer to the truth, maybe even 99% of the way there, as they have less mind blocking life. However, the human mind is evolved enough to exchange and learn massive amounts of information, which allows us to decide to embark on the path of truth seeking. Humans have the ability to embrace the infinite and understand truth.

IMO, we are either going to destroy ourselves before the masses realize this, or we are going to have a massive revealing (Apocalypse) of the truth, which includes our true past. Thus, this topic is very important. Good thread, Icelander.

I say we work to show the masses that the mind must become our companion instead of our controlling overlord. Compassion, wisdom, honesty.

--------------------
..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

DC at: Oneness

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Jethro Tull]
#10116589 - 04/06/09 11:25 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

The part here I fully agree with is that our minds are often the source of our difficulties.

Empty the mind and fill the belly.

Once again I believe that our mental capabilities are a current adaptation to environment. Nothing special. Different in degree yes. Humans tend IMO to think way too much of ourselves as a species. But I don't see the evidence. Yes I see all the tall phallic buildings and such but I see so much neurotic unhappiness everywhere I look that it makes those buildings look like a sort of prison.

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Jethro Tull
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10116633 - 04/06/09 11:33 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

We think way too much as a species. We are programmed to think all the time. Truth is, it's time for a break.

Quote:

Icelander said:
Once again I believe that our mental capabilities are a current adaptation to environment.

Interesting. I mentioned that we can "de-evolve" our minds, and voluntarily reprogram our perspective through meditation, reflection, and psychedelics. In light of the nuclear situation, I'd say this re-programming would be a logical adaption to the current situation. We are certainly capable of embarking on a path of truth seeking. Is re-programming the mind through a massive realization of truth the next step in our evolution? Will we transcend the illusions of the mind and animal instincts before we destroy ourselves?

--------------------
..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

DC at: Oneness

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Jethro Tull]
#10116649 - 04/06/09 11:37 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Can't wait until next week to find out.

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The Chronic

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10116656 - 04/06/09 11:38 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Yes I see all the tall phallic buildings and such but I see so much neurotic unhappiness everywhere I look that it makes those buildings look like a sort of prison.

Personalisms such as Wow, when your not being an arrogant... are not allowed in this forum.

Edited by deCypher (04/06/09 02:10 PM)

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: The Chronic]
#10116668 - 04/06/09 11:40 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, It's really something isn't it. :satansmoking:

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Saidin
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10116671 - 04/06/09 11:41 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Can't wait until next week to find out.

One can only hope that the choice/revelation will come this soon.

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: The Chronic]
#10116680 - 04/06/09 11:43 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Wow, when your not being an arrogant...

Being is one's core. One cannot be something and then not be something.

--------------------

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The Chronic

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Saidin]
#10116681 - 04/06/09 11:43 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Why the rush people!?

The revelation is here & now, not tomorrow

:peace:

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Saidin
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10116701 - 04/06/09 11:46 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I see so much neurotic unhappiness everywhere I look that it makes those buildings look like a sort of prison.

All of which we have done to ourselves though our cultural and societal choices. We have created a prison of our own making, built it around ourselves beginning from our first memories/imprints.

Only by actively choosing to percieve things differently in order to cure the neuroses/insanity of a species can we truly evolve.

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Jethro Tull
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: The Chronic]
#10116712 - 04/06/09 11:49 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Why the rush people!?

The revelation is here & now, not tomorrow

Why wait?
If not now, when? If not us, who?
I'm in Heaven, why aren't you?
Free your mind.
:peace:

--------------------
..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

DC at: Oneness

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CaptainCrunch
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Jethro Tull]
#10116739 - 04/06/09 11:53 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

it's good to point out a point.

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The Chronic

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Jethro Tull]
#10116751 - 04/06/09 11:58 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I love you man

:peace:

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Jethro Tull
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: The Chronic]
#10116851 - 04/06/09 12:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Spread the love.

Okay, I'll stop with the "peace & love" one-liners... :yesnod:

--------------------
..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

DC at: Oneness

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: The Chronic]
#10117332 - 04/06/09 01:52 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
If they were enlightened they wouldn't have been reborn

What book did you find that in?

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c0sm0nautt

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10117403 - 04/06/09 02:03 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I believe humans are special because of our creative abilities which is not mimicked throughout the animal kingdom. Homo sapien sapien (creative thinker)

Have you ever had a "spiritual" experience Icelander?

--------------------
astralsun.blogspot.com
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#10117415 - 04/06/09 02:05 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Have you ever had a "spiritual" experience Icelander?

I'm having one right now. :holyshit:

What abilities do we have that are not in some form part of the primate experience in general?

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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10117445 - 04/06/09 02:10 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

You do realize how naive the materialist point of view is for the workings of the universe.

--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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c0sm0nautt

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10117458 - 04/06/09 02:11 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Of course similarities are to be found in our genetic cousins. But I would separate creative thinking as a predominant, if not exclusive, human trait.

Do you see animals creating art, composing music, or writing novels? Or in your case, utilizing sarcasm? :heart:

Edited by c0sm0nautt (04/06/09 02:12 PM)

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#10117475 - 04/06/09 02:15 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

So what? Or, relate your claims to the topic at hand.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10117480 - 04/06/09 02:15 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
You do realize how naive the materialist point of view is for the workings of the universe.

Elaborate.

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c0sm0nautt

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10117502 - 04/06/09 02:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

"What abilities do we have that are not in some form part of the primate experience in general?"

Creating art, composing music, or writing novels, using sarcasm.

How is this not the topic at hand? Seems to me you'd rather not acknowledge this.

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daytripper23
?

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10117515 - 04/06/09 02:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

In the vocabulary of Carl Jung anima is the true self, and persona is the mask. I know that I am usually more touched by the drama of an animal's life than any human concern usually. Maybe its more specifically animals relating to humans as pets, wherein the situation is somehow objectified; but still, I seem to care more about the pets welfare than the human's...

This is probably fucked

--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#10117544 - 04/06/09 02:26 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
"What abilities do we have that are not in some form part of the primate experience in general?"

Creating art, composing music, or writing novels, using sarcasm.

How is this not the topic at hand? Seems to me you'd rather not acknowledge this.

Oh really? :lol:

The topic is my claim that we are just another animal in the web of life and not "special". I already gave the example that all animals have different abilities and adaptations.

I also stated that we don't really know if a wolf or a coyote is not "singing" or if a monkey smearing it's shit on the zoo wall is not trying to create "art".

So who the fuck cares if we do this or that. Prove to me we are "special" and not doomed to the fate of all living things.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: daytripper23]
#10117555 - 04/06/09 02:28 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
In the vocabulary of Carl Jung anima is the true self, and persona is the mask. I know that I am usually more touched by the drama of an animal's life than any human concern usually. Maybe its more specifically animals relating to humans as pets, wherein the situation is somehow objectified; but still, I seem to care more about the pets welfare than the human's...

This is probably fucked

Really get to know a dog. Relate to them on their level as an animal. Then you will see sensitivity that you can hardly imagine. I will take a dog to most people anyday. :shrug:

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BlueCoyote
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10117691 - 04/06/09 02:56 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

You do mean 'better', not 'special'...

Then, 'better' needs a reference point, like, 'better' in destroying the earth or something :smile:

--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not

And death shall have no dominion............................................................."Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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c0sm0nautt

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10117704 - 04/06/09 02:58 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

So you choose to draw on the subjective experiences of animals? :rolleyes:

I think we can clearly see humans have creative abilities not seen in animals. If you believe a monkey smearing his shit on the glass at the zoo exhibit is art... then that's a whole other argument.

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Silversoul
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10117713 - 04/06/09 03:00 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

*throws feces at Icelander*

--------------------

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EternalCowabunga
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Silversoul]
#10117724 - 04/06/09 03:02 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

We can change our minds

--------------------
Oh, yeah, what are you gonna do? Release the
dogs? Or the bees? Or the dogs with bees in their
mouth and when they bark, they shoot bees at you? -
Homer Simpson

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#10117758 - 04/06/09 03:09 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
So you choose to draw on the subjective experiences of animals? I think we can clearly see humans have creative abilities not seen in animals. If you believe a monkey smearing his shit on the glass at the zoo exhibit is art... then that's a whole other argument.

Once again. What does this have to do with my original contention?

I think some humans in the art world have paid some big money for some paintings done by gorilla's and elephants. Now what do you make of that?

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Silversoul]
#10117772 - 04/06/09 03:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
*throws feces at Icelander*

throws 9mm bullets back

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c0sm0nautt

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10117838 - 04/06/09 03:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Elephants, to my surprise, are capable of some interesting art. Check out this gallery: http://www.elephantartgallery.com/paintings/

Yet we could argue if this is inspired by creativity or simple random brushstrokes. It quite definitive that human art (for the most part) is mirrored by the creative visualization innate to humans.

Find me a poem written by a Gorilla and I'll stand corrected.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#10117877 - 04/06/09 03:30 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

once again, how does this address my original contention??????????????????????

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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10118115 - 04/06/09 04:15 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
You do realize how naive the materialist point of view is for the workings of the universe.

Elaborate.

This pretty much sums up where materialism has brought us.

Quote:

The basic message of materialism is that the world is what it appears to be: a thing composed of
matter, and pretty much confined to its surface. The world is what it appears to be.
Now, this, on the face of it, is a tremendously naïve position, because what it says is the animal body
that you inhabit, the eyes you look through, the fingers you feel through, are somehow the ultimate
instruments of metaphysical conjecture… which is highly improbable. It seems to me, metaphysical
conjecture begins with the logic of the situation, and then proceeds in whatever direction that logic
will carry you. Well, if logic is true to experience, then we have to make room in any theory for
invisible connectedness between people; anticipation of a future that has not yet occurred; shared
dreaming; all kinds of possibilities that materialism has denied. For approximately 500 years, the great
era of the triumph of modern science, materialism has had the field all to itself; and its argument for
its pre-eminence was the beautiful toys that it could create: aircraft, railroads, global economies,
television, spacecraft. But that is a fool’s argument for truth! I mean, that’s after all how a medicine
show operates, you know: the juggler is so good, the medicine must be even better! This is not an
entirely rational way to proceed. And now, at the end of 500 years of the practice of “rational”
scientific culture, we are literally at the end of our rope! Reason, and science, and the practice of
unbridled capitalism, have not delivered us into an angelic realm. Quite the contrary: they’ve
delivered 3% of us into an angelic realm, completely overshadowed by guilt about what’s happening
to the other 97% of us who are eating it!
It’s not a pretty picture, modern civilisation. Most people in the world today are quite miserable,
actually. They have very little hope; their religions, their traditional value systems, are being eroded
by Dallas and Hawaii 5-0, which are on the village television every night; lifespans are being
shortened by pesticides, chemicals, all kinds of things in the environment; and there is very little
political light on the horizon. So I believe that it’s reasonable, looking at this situation, to say that
history failed; and that the grand dream of Western civilisation has in fact failed. And now we are attempting – with basically a carved wooden oar – to turn a battleship around. And it’s a very
frustrating undertaking. The momentum for catastrophe is enormous in this situation. But it’s not
100% certain that catastrophe is what we’re headed for, because we are not 100% unconscious. There
are people struggling to figure out how to control population, struggling to figure out how to balance
the relationship between the masculine and the feminine, struggling to bring amelioration of hunger
and disease to various parts of the world. So we’re in essentially a tragic situation. A tragic situation is
a catastrophe when you know it, you see. And part of the Western impulse has been to subjugate all
other cultural styles to our own. And this has taken the form of actually swallowing and digesting
Native American culture; the ethnicity of European culture has been replaced by the megaculture of
Nouveau Europa, whatever that means; cultures are melted down in the belly of the Western scientific
beast and then they become structural members in an ever-expanding edifice of Western scientism.

--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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c0sm0nautt

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10118123 - 04/06/09 04:17 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Does anyone else see what I'm pointing out?

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Mufungo
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#10118671 - 04/06/09 05:53 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
I believe humans are special because of our creative abilities which is not mimicked throughout the animal kingdom. Homo sapien sapien (creative thinker)

There might not be any animals now that mimic the human level of creativity, but there could have been at some point before humans or the environment wiped them out. Other (extinct) hominids were thought to have been creative, weren't they?

Hey Ice, I've attached a psych article that offers an explanation on why humans often like to think of themselves as separate/different from animals. It's a part of Terror Management Theory which might also be up your alley in how it relates to death anxiety. In short this article suggests that the act of separating the self from animals serves as a buffer from mortality salience. (I reckon the study was just an excuse to see if they could publish a paper that involved showing participants a video of chimps screwing..)

I like the conclusion they made...

Quote:

We conclude by asserting that until people do come to terms with the paradox of being human and animal at the same time, we are likely to continue to live with the unwarranted and indeed unsustainable perception that humans are rulers of all that they survey.

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dill705
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mufungo]
#10118701 - 04/06/09 05:57 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Why do I always miss the really good threads?

FUCK MY LIFE!

--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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CaptainCrunch
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: dill705]
#10119929 - 04/06/09 08:47 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Prove that I exist, or any of you for that matter.

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Saidin
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: CaptainCrunch]
#10119941 - 04/06/09 08:49 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CaptainCrunch said:
Prove that I exist, or any of you for that matter.

The Matrix isn't far off the mark.

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sterbeklang
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10120599 - 04/06/09 10:45 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Lion said:
I too have studied primates for more than twenty years, mostly in captivity. I largely agree with the findings Frans De Waal has expressed.

What were you doing in captivity?

ROFLMAO. srsly though, it's not just language, but art we have. chimps seem to have language skills, but they can't paint a picture. i'm not saying that's better or worse.. I'm just sayin'.

--------------------

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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10121065 - 04/07/09 12:34 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
My evidence for this comes from the studies of Primate behavior. Bonobo's Chimps, Gorillas, humans.

From our basic drives and how we express them and our social structures and basic emotional and mental make up.

This is the book if you care to find out more and in depth. I have found no book more revealing and I give it my highest recommendation. Our Inner Ape by Frans De Waal Check it out if you dare.

"Two-against-one maneuvering is what lends chimpanzee power struggles both their richness and their danger. Coalitions are key. No male can rule by himself, at least not for long, because the group as a whole can overthrow anybody. Chimpanzees are so cleaver about banding together that a leader needs allies to fortify his position as well as the greater community's acceptance. Staying on top is a balancing act between forcefully asserting dominance, keeping supporters happy, and avoiding mass revolt. If this sounds familiar, it's because human politics works exactly the same"

That just a taste of the tip of the ice burg as far as evidence goes. This guy has studied primates for well over twenty years in the field and in captivity. It's one of the most interesting and revealing books I have ever read. You might find just about everything we do as individuals and as a group reflected in these other primate relatives. The contrast between bonobo and chimp behavior is especially revealing as far as violence goes and male vs female hierarchy.

Interesting thread. It picks up where our previous conversation left off. Are you suggesting you agree with Frans De Waal? The New York Times review says, "De Waal's most hopeful message is that peaceful behavior can be learned, as he showed when he raised juvenile rhesus and stumptail monkeys together." This is precisely the case as page 141 explains:

Quote:

Bonobos show us the conditions under which peaceful relations between groups may evolve. Similar conditions apply to us.

This would seem to fly in the face of your doomsday hypothesis. Can you explain that?

First, I think your contention, i.e. that we (humans) are not special, is demonstrably false given the primary definition:

Special:
1. Surpassing what is common or usual; exceptional: a special occasion; a special treat.

c0sm0nautt already pointed this out when he said, "Find me a poem written by a Gorilla and I'll stand corrected." The fact that man can write poems is an example of the radical difference in kind, i.e. specialness, between man and other animals.

But rather than wade through the entire thread pointing out all the errors and difficulties, I'll start my own. Hopefully that will evade all the confusion. Just a few more points in this one for now. Frans De Waal has been studying this for 20 years you say? Marvelous. That makes him a peer of mine. :smirk:

How he hopes to escape the bias of Penny Patterson and Koko is beyond me. I wish him well.

The point is that there are only four modalities of difference between two entities:

1) Difference in degree.
2) Apparent difference in kind.
3) Superficial difference in kind or;
4) Radical difference in kind.

I'll prove the latter beyond a shadow of a doubt in my thread.

:hatsoff:

--------------------

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10121504 - 04/07/09 04:23 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Icelanders point I believe is that, given opposable thumbs and some time any given species could evolve to have all the qualities we possess. We are not a "higher conscioussness being". We are special only by as much as any animal is special.

--------------------
"So man's insanity is heaven's sense; and wandering from all mortal reason, man comes at last to that celestial thought, which, to reason, is absurd and frantic; and weal or woe, feels then uncompromised, indifferent as his God." - Herman Melville

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Grapefruit]
#10121530 - 04/07/09 04:34 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

were just advanced animals. we have an accelerated social and mental evolution. like a sprial....
we get better and we get better faster and faster... id call that cubies accelerated evolution theory but i dont see other animals getting more intelligent they seem to stay at the same level..... so maybe we are special

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cubie]
#10121998 - 04/07/09 08:06 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

To thread:
Sometimes the evolution of the 'mind' overtakes the evolution of the body. This merely is done by mind-tools, like language to communicate concepts.
Once this accelerated 'mind'-development started, it's hard for other species to fetch up with it.
But of course, we only can succeed in our mind-development, if we include our natural (and mental) roots, aka 'animals', which can spreads compassion to the whole planet and makes us more aware of the 'oneness' with it and all life in the universe(s).

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10122044 - 04/07/09 08:20 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
You do realize how naive the materialist point of view is for the workings of the universe.

Elaborate.

This pretty much sums up where materialism has brought us.
Quote:

The basic message of materialism is that the world is what it appears to be: a thing composed of
matter, and pretty much confined to its surface. The world is what it appears to be.
Now, this, on the face of it, is a tremendously na�ve position, because what it says is the animal body
that you inhabit, the eyes you look through, the fingers you feel through, are somehow the ultimate
instruments of metaphysical conjecture� which is highly improbable. It seems to me, metaphysical
conjecture begins with the logic of the situation, and then proceeds in whatever direction that logic
will carry you. Well, if logic is true to experience, then we have to make room in any theory for
invisible connectedness between people; anticipation of a future that has not yet occurred; shared
dreaming; all kinds of possibilities that materialism has denied. For approximately 500 years, the great
era of the triumph of modern science, materialism has had the field all to itself; and its argument for
its pre-eminence was the beautiful toys that it could create: aircraft, railroads, global economies,
television, spacecraft. But that is a fool�s argument for truth! I mean, that�s after all how a medicine
show operates, you know: the juggler is so good, the medicine must be even better! This is not an
entirely rational way to proceed. And now, at the end of 500 years of the practice of �rational�
scientific culture, we are literally at the end of our rope! Reason, and science, and the practice of
unbridled capitalism, have not delivered us into an angelic realm. Quite the contrary: they�ve
delivered 3% of us into an angelic realm, completely overshadowed by guilt about what�s happening
to the other 97% of us who are eating it!
It�s not a pretty picture, modern civilisation. Most people in the world today are quite miserable,
actually. They have very little hope; their religions, their traditional value systems, are being eroded
by Dallas and Hawaii 5-0, which are on the village television every night; lifespans are being
shortened by pesticides, chemicals, all kinds of things in the environment; and there is very little
political light on the horizon. So I believe that it�s reasonable, looking at this situation, to say that
history failed; and that the grand dream of Western civilisation has in fact failed. And now we are attempting � with basically a carved wooden oar � to turn a battleship around. And it�s a very
frustrating undertaking. The momentum for catastrophe is enormous in this situation. But it�s not
100% certain that catastrophe is what we�re headed for, because we are not 100% unconscious. There
are people struggling to figure out how to control population, struggling to figure out how to balance
the relationship between the masculine and the feminine, struggling to bring amelioration of hunger
and disease to various parts of the world. So we�re in essentially a tragic situation. A tragic situation is
a catastrophe when you know it, you see. And part of the Western impulse has been to subjugate all
other cultural styles to our own. And this has taken the form of actually swallowing and digesting
Native American culture; the ethnicity of European culture has been replaced by the megaculture of
Nouveau Europa, whatever that means; cultures are melted down in the belly of the Western scientific
beast and then they become structural members in an ever-expanding edifice of Western scientism.

Nice argument but IMO it doesn't hold water. Materialism is not a problem. It's humans emotional landscapes that are the problem. Material is the tools and toys of physical experience. What humans need is psychological health and that's just a part of our animal makeup.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10122088 - 04/07/09 08:31 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
My evidence for this comes from the studies of Primate behavior. Bonobo's Chimps, Gorillas, humans.

From our basic drives and how we express them and our social structures and basic emotional and mental make up.

This is the book if you care to find out more and in depth. I have found no book more revealing and I give it my highest recommendation. Our Inner Ape by Frans De Waal Check it out if you dare.

"Two-against-one maneuvering is what lends chimpanzee power struggles both their richness and their danger. Coalitions are key. No male can rule by himself, at least not for long, because the group as a whole can overthrow anybody. Chimpanzees are so cleaver about banding together that a leader needs allies to fortify his position as well as the greater community's acceptance. Staying on top is a balancing act between forcefully asserting dominance, keeping supporters happy, and avoiding mass revolt. If this sounds familiar, it's because human politics works exactly the same"

That just a taste of the tip of the ice burg as far as evidence goes. This guy has studied primates for well over twenty years in the field and in captivity. It's one of the most interesting and revealing books I have ever read. You might find just about everything we do as individuals and as a group reflected in these other primate relatives. The contrast between bonobo and chimp behavior is especially revealing as far as violence goes and male vs female hierarchy.

Interesting thread. It picks up where our previous conversation left off. Are you suggesting you agree with Frans De Waal? The New York Times review says, "De Waal's most hopeful message is that peaceful behavior can be learned, as he showed when he raised juvenile rhesus and stumptail monkeys together." This is precisely the case as page 141 explains:

Quote:

Bonobos show us the conditions under which peaceful relations between groups may evolve. Similar conditions apply to us.

This would seem to fly in the face of your doomsday hypothesis. Can you explain that?

First, I think your contention, i.e. that we (humans) are not special, is demonstrably false given the primary definition:

Special:
1. Surpassing what is common or usual; exceptional: a special occasion; a special treat.

c0sm0nautt already pointed this out when he said, "Find me a poem written by a Gorilla and I'll stand corrected." The fact that man can write poems is an example of the radical difference in kind, i.e. specialness, between man and other animals.

But rather than wade through the entire thread pointing out all the errors and difficulties, I'll start my own. Hopefully that will evade all the confusion. Just a few more points in this one for now. Frans De Waal has been studying this for 20 years you say? Marvelous. That makes him a peer of mine. How he hopes to escape the bias of Penny Patterson and Koko is beyond me. I wish him well.

The point is that there are only four modalities of difference between two entities:

1) Difference in degree.
2) Apparent difference in kind.
3) Superficial difference in kind or;
4) Radical difference in kind.

I'll prove the latter beyond a shadow of a doubt in my thread.

Good someone is thinking. Yes I agree that it is possible for us to correct our current unhealthy psychology. Will we collectively? I seriously doubt it (hence my sadness on this issue) Individuals however do it all the time.

OK then your point is we're special. But that could be negative special right?

When humans with their big special brains can show they can, control aggression and genocide, personal anxiety and hate, control population and share the planet with other species. Care take natural resources, share them and educate fairly just to name a couple of things, then I might join in the praise of humanities specialness. Please don't make a case for how in the future we will... as that doesn't count for shit. In other words I see our abilities as just another adaptation that may or may not work in the long run for human survival. Nothing special about it.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10123019 - 04/07/09 11:27 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

Good someone is thinking. Yes I agree that it is possible for us to correct our current unhealthy psychology. Will we collectively? I seriously doubt it (hence my sadness on this issue) Individuals however do it all the time.

I, like you, believe we're on a collision course. The problem is, as De Waal seems to indicate, that this collective shift will take longer than we have time for. Remember, how much time did it take for Bonobos to evolve into their societal framework? Ice, you know we don't have time to do that collectively. In sum, we're fucked. You know it, and I know it.

Quote:

Icelander said:
OK then your point is we're special. But that could be negative special right?

When humans with their big special brains can show they can, control aggression and genocide, personal anxiety and hate, control population and share the planet with other species. Care take natural resources, share them and educate fairly just to name a couple of things, then I might join in the praise of humanities specialness. Please don't make a case for how in the future we will... as that doesn't count for shit. In other words I see our abilities as just another adaptation that may or may not work in the long run for human survival. Nothing special about it.

Negative special? Without a doubt. Has our unique attribute of conceptual abstraction solved the negative aspects of human nature? No, it hasn't, not then, not now, not ever. If we define special as something better or something that lifts us above the brute beasts, one can easily make the argument that we are not only no better, but far worse. Chimps may share our violent tendencies, but they lack the conceptual abstraction that makes nuclear weapons and smart bombs. Man, in this sense, is far more deadly. After all, we've been fearing the doomsday machine for more than one or two decades. We have the ability, if we were so inclined, to destroy all life on earth forever.

If we are to believe evolutionary history (a big if for some), all organisms share adaptation. After all, that is how different organisms came to be different. In that sense all organisms from amoeba to man are similar. But we need to be careful with that argument. If the conclusion is that man is no different and we rely on evolutionary history as a premise that says man is no different we're begging the question.

--------------------

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10123080 - 04/07/09 11:35 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Great response.

As I stated each animals adaption makes it unique. But when everything is unique then it sort of dulls the concept.

I do agree that I find our adaptations unusual in the sense that we are given some leeway in directing our emotional and cognitive landscape and maybe overriding some instinctual responses.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10123451 - 04/07/09 12:57 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

What is a negative example of a human instinctual characteristic that is compromised by an emotional tendancy, if a positive example is that humans tend to not eat our young?

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10123586 - 04/07/09 01:24 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

ALBERT FISH! google it mutha fucka

--------------------

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cubie]
#10123642 - 04/07/09 01:34 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I said tend not to eat their young! Interesting and horrifying bio, none the less!

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10123667 - 04/07/09 01:37 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

for sure

--------------------

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10123686 - 04/07/09 01:40 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swyfty Swyf said:
What is a negative example of a human instinctual characteristic that is compromised by an emotional tendancy, if a positive example is that humans tend to not eat our young?

I'm sorry were we talking about instinctual characteristics? I don't think we were.

Instincts are not negative or positive, however red in tooth and claw.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10123932 - 04/07/09 02:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

So you say there is a problem with human psychology rather than our current philosophical outlook on the nature of being.

You see there is part of your argument which you will always win with materialism.

You cannot disprove we are not animals.
You cannot prove we are more than animals.

You win every time, however i still feel as though materialism is limiting your outlook in life, because my personal feeling based off of nothing material, is that the universe is more than just matter, that it is not confined to its surface. Because your argument is based off of materialism you win every time. There is nothing i can say to change your mind. What i can do to change your mind is remind you how naive the philosophical view of materialism is.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10123959 - 04/07/09 02:28 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

You win every time,

I know it's a bitch. I wish sometimes I didn't have to.

What i can do to change your mind is remind you how naive the philosophical view of materialism is.

And that's true because you believe it right? You don't need material evidence because if there was some it would be self evident and we all would believe it without your mantra.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10123976 - 04/07/09 02:31 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Well, maybe the universe is all this or that but believing without evidence is a good excuse to go to war also. Don't forget all that carnage that has been faith based. Don't forget and then you know why I won't accept your personal beliefs as evidence.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10124021 - 04/07/09 02:38 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

What does religion have to do with this? I am not a religious person AT ALL. But i don't believe the universe is totally limited to the way which Homo Sapian perceives it. Hummingbirds and Bees don't live in the same reality as us psychologically, but they do physically. Everything is just perception. That's why i think the world is much more psychological than i think the materialist would like to think. IMO.

--------------------
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10124032 - 04/07/09 02:39 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I think you are very religious actually. Your beliefs being faith based and all.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10124040 - 04/07/09 02:40 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

No my beliefs come from direct experience. And i believe them because you cannot deny direct experience.

Edited by Cognitive_Shift (04/07/09 02:43 PM)

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10124172 - 04/07/09 03:03 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I can deny my direct experience. I'm not so arrogant to believe what I may perceive with all my socialization, filters, programs and such could not be misinterpreted by my personality structure.

I think it's silly to come to this forum and proclaim personal experience as evidence with which to debate an issue.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10124233 - 04/07/09 03:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

How can you deny direct experience? How is what you experience not 'real'?

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10124260 - 04/07/09 03:17 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

For the reasons I just gave or did your reading and comprehension skills fail?

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10124276 - 04/07/09 03:20 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think it's silly to come to this forum and proclaim personal experience as evidence with which to debate an issue.

Real-life experience beats book knowledge any day!

It is all about how you present your understanding of the experience.

Another's personal experience may not provide evidence for you but it might be a good idea to respect the fact that it was evidence enough for them. That doesn't mean they're right, but... :shrug:

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: zen buddy]
#10124307 - 04/07/09 03:24 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

That doesn't mean they're right,

That's all I'm saying. Now if they were to say "this was my personal experience and there's a possibility it might be true" I might show a little respect but if that's all the evidence the have to debate and issue with and they claim knowledge of the truth then I don't care about it.

If I did I would still be a fundamentalist christian. :crazy2:

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10124333 - 04/07/09 03:29 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
That's all I'm saying. Now if they were to say "this was my personal experience and there's a possibility it might be true" I might show a little respect but if that's all the evidence the have to debate and issue with and they claim knowledge of the truth then I don't care about it.

Your loss... have a little :heart:

... it feels good to care about others.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: zen buddy]
#10124350 - 04/07/09 03:30 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Read..think.. then speak. I said noting about not caring for others. I'm talking about their opinions. Give it a break please.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: zen buddy]
#10124361 - 04/07/09 03:32 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Same thing!

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10124392 - 04/07/09 03:37 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Swyfty Swyf said:
What is a negative example of a human instinctual characteristic that is compromised by an emotional tendancy, if a positive example is that humans tend to not eat our young?

I'm sorry were we talking about instinctual characteristics? I don't think we were.

Instincts are not negative or positive, however red in tooth and claw.

I see your point, that's why I phrased the question so a theoretical answer is acceptable. Looking at it from a common (and I would hope, VERY common) ethical standpoint of being horrified by the thought of eating your child, what instictual characteristics that might be considered positive are given up in order to have a more cognitive thought process?

I don't think our reflexes are less keen or anything like that.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: zen buddy]
#10124406 - 04/07/09 03:39 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry but you are wrong, at least in my case. I do not think for a minute that someone is good or bad based on what they say. I may not like their programming but they and we are all IMO. NOT GUILTY. I may not want to be around unskillful behavior or thinking but it's not who we are man. :nono:

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10124418 - 04/07/09 03:41 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
For the reasons I just gave or did your reading and comprehension skills fail?

So if you can deny direct experience, you can deny anything you say. Anything.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10124430 - 04/07/09 03:43 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

what instictual characteristics that might be considered positive are given up in order to have a more cognitive thought process?

Not sure what you're asking but I would say that we have an instinct for violence but hate belongs only to humans or maybe to certain primates in our family who have the cognitive abilities close to ours.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10124444 - 04/07/09 03:44 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
For the reasons I just gave or did your reading and comprehension skills fail?

So if you can deny direct experience, you can deny anything you say. Anything.

Yes you can. I'm not saying direct experience is wrong but if I'm the only person in a crowd who see's the Flying Spaghetti Monster then I'm most likely delusional.

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deCypher

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10124463 - 04/07/09 03:46 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
No my beliefs come from direct experience. And i believe them because you cannot deny direct experience.

You can't deny it, but someone who hasn't had the same direct experience certainly can.

--------------------
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10124481 - 04/07/09 03:49 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly, but how can i deny something i directly experienced? I can't. It is just as real as "rational thinking" Unless your ego is so strong is using the ego defense mechanism known as denial.

Denial: Refusal to accept external reality because it is too threatening; arguing against an anxiety-provoking stimulus by stating it doesn't exist; resolution of emotional conflict and reduction of anxiety by refusing to perceive or consciously acknowledge the more unpleasant aspects of external reality.

--------------------
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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10124521 - 04/07/09 03:56 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly, but how can i deny something i directly experienced? I can't.

No problem so far, but can you seriously expect to use it as your only evidence in debating an issue here and expect us to think it has value. You could be stark raving nuts for all we know.

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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10124560 - 04/07/09 04:02 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Exactly, but how can i deny something i directly experienced? I can't.

No problem so far, but can you seriously expect to use it as your only evidence in debating an issue here and expect us to think it has value. You could be stark raving nuts for all we know.

Hmmm, you must be having a bad day, seem a little testy today. "I believe we are nothing more than animals" is a pretty vague argument is it not.

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Sventington
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10124568 - 04/07/09 04:03 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

his tone seems fine to me?

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10124577 - 04/07/09 04:05 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

What is your direct experience beyond the laws of physics?

A trip? You can't base actual science on a feeling of perceiving another dimensional headspace and all of a sudden find a logical reason to start believing in actual alternate realities.

--------------------
If you build it, they will shrug.

Edited by Swyfty Swyf (04/07/09 04:06 PM)

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10124582 - 04/07/09 04:05 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I'm having a find day. Not particularly testy or anything. That's all you friend.

I can provide and did a lot of evidence of our animal nature and how we act very very much like our primate brothers and sisters. You on the other hand.... So let's get real about were we stand here.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10124616 - 04/07/09 04:10 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

The only evidence i have provided is that you cannot take the world at face value. That i have no material arguments against yours. From a materialist standpoint one would see the world as a thing composed of matter, and pretty much confined to its surface. That our existence is somehow the result of probabilistic metaphysical conjecture. You take any argument that is non-material as a joke, so i presented none.

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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Edited by Cognitive_Shift (04/07/09 04:11 PM)

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10124631 - 04/07/09 04:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

The only evidence i have provided is that you cannot take the world at face value.

Do you know that difference between evidence and opinion???

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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10124673 - 04/07/09 04:17 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

(From a materialist POV)
It is not an opinion, because it is a fact that the world exists outside your mind. Your perception is merely a perception, not THE way the world is.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10124820 - 04/07/09 04:36 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Why can you not take the world (and all other forms of matter in the universe) at face falue. I don't see that as naive, it is just standing by the scientific method, which makes psychology such a soft science.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10124857 - 04/07/09 04:41 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swyfty Swyf said:
Why can you not take the world (and all other forms of matter in the universe) at face falue. I don't see that as naive, it is just standing by the scientific method, which makes psychology such a soft science.

I have already said this many many times. That in order for the world to be as it appears. Our existence must be the result of metaphysical conjecture. The probability of the world being as it is, something composed of matter and confined to its surface is highly unlikely. So unlikely that i think its more probable for there to be something that we cannot perceive about us humans and nature that is more than just matter interacting with its self.

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10125085 - 04/07/09 05:11 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Sure it's unlikely that the world occured, but it did. What do you think we are, figments of a mechanical imagination, trying to prove to itself that we exist? Come back to the Milky Way.

--------------------
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10125193 - 04/07/09 05:24 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

No i think there is an undetectable connectedness about the universe. That nothing is random or chaotic.

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10125229 - 04/07/09 05:28 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Then you must agree that your statement is illogical. The actual universe where scientists write laws is based on random events and chaos.

--------------------
If you build it, they will shrug.

Edited by Swyfty Swyf (04/07/09 06:13 PM)

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10125301 - 04/07/09 05:38 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Exactly, but how can i deny something i directly experienced?

This should be a sticky as it has been covered ad nauseum and yet - here we are again.

Let's look at some direct experience:

At LEAST 95% (I would say 100%) of all UFO sightings are misperceptions of common objects - the planet Venus being the #1.

Astrology fails on all counts yet millions believe their experience.

Homeopathy fails on all counts yet millions believe their experience.

Chemical lengthening of the penis is impossible, yet millions keep ordereing X-Tenz.

Here is where you miss the mark:

Direct experience cannot be denied - "I saw a light in the sky that I could not identify," but the conclusion-jumping certainly can, "therefore it was an alien vessel."

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10125338 - 04/07/09 05:42 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Great response.

As I stated each animals adaption makes it unique. But when everything is unique then it sort of dulls the concept.

I do agree that I find our adaptations unusual in the sense that we are given some leeway in directing our emotional and cognitive landscape and maybe overriding some instinctual responses.

Thanks. And to the rest, precisely. :thumbup:

--------------------

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10125588 - 04/07/09 06:10 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
But i don't believe the universe is totally limited to the way which Homo Sapian perceives it. Hummingbirds and Bees don't live in the same reality as us psychologically, but they do physically. Everything is just perception. That's why i think the world is much more psychological than i think the materialist would like to think. IMO.

I must tell you that the way a bee visually sees things has more to do with the build of it's eye and the type of cells (composed of matter) that absorb and transform ultra-violet light into electrical signals for the brain to process than it's "perception" simply because it's "perception" is based on it's physical constituency . I really don't see where this deviates from a materialist view...

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10125593 - 04/07/09 06:10 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chemical lengthening of the penis is impossible, yet millions keep ordereing X-Tenz.

--------------------
If you build it, they will shrug.

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10127060 - 04/07/09 09:30 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Hundreds of dollars later and still - nothing! :mad2:

--------------------

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zen buddy
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10128662 - 04/08/09 07:59 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Sorry but you are wrong, at least in my case. I do not think for a minute that someone is good or bad based on what they say. I may not like their programming but they and we are all IMO. NOT GUILTY. I may not want to be around unskillful behavior or thinking but it's not who we are man.

What are we then, if not our behavior or thinking?

Isn't our behavior and thinking just another expression of who we are?

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: zen buddy]
#10128743 - 04/08/09 08:20 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zen buddy said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Sorry but you are wrong, at least in my case. I do not think for a minute that someone is good or bad based on what they say. I may not like their programming but they and we are all IMO. NOT GUILTY. I may not want to be around unskillful behavior or thinking but it's not who we are man.

What are we then, if not our behavior or thinking?

Isn't our behavior and thinking just another expression of who we are?

Good question and good point. Yes it is part of what we are but not near the whole. It is IMO our surface programs that connect us to our culture and social programs, our mask. These are instilled in us from our environment. You were born in America. So are you an American or a primate human? What carries the most weight?

My personal view on humans is that what we are part of the web of life. That is central and there can be no calling that good or bad or right or wrong. I try to remember that whenever I am in conflict with someones programs. My programs are also conflicted. There is plenty in my thinking and actions that I don't like and haven't been able to change. I'm not however going to hate myself over if I can help it because it's not functional towards my happiness. I try and accept others on those conditions also. If I fail occasionally that's just part of the mess.

Kind of like the Christians say, "Hate the sin and not the sinner."

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zen buddy
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10128965 - 04/08/09 08:59 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zen buddy said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Sorry but you are wrong, at least in my case. I do not think for a minute that someone is good or bad based on what they say. I may not like their programming but they and we are all IMO. NOT GUILTY. I may not want to be around unskillful behavior or thinking but it's not who we are man.

What are we then, if not our behavior or thinking?

Isn't our behavior and thinking just another expression of who we are?

Good question and good point. Yes it is part of what we are but not near the whole. It is IMO our surface programs that connect us to our culture and social programs, our mask. These are instilled in us from our environment. You were born in America. So are you an American or a primate human? What carries the most weight?

My personal view on humans is that what we are part of the web of life. That is central and there can be no calling that good or bad or right or wrong. I try to remember that whenever I am in conflict with someones programs. My programs are also conflicted. There is plenty in my thinking and actions that I don't like and haven't been able to change. I'm not however going to hate myself over if I can help it because it's not functional towards my happiness. I try and accept others on those conditions also. If I fail occasionally that's just part of the mess.

Kind of like the Christians say, "Hate the sin and not the sinner."

I understand.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10129063 - 04/08/09 09:17 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

We would appear to be a work-in-progress.

There is nothing wrong with having a humble beginning.

This is the sort of thing that can give us perspective.

Do you not appreciate much more something that you had to strive and work for, rather than things which were merely handed to you?

This talk about being "nothing more than animals", are we self hating humans?

It is much like seeing people not as they presently are or have been in the past, but as to what their potential could be. If a teacher is told that his students are intelligent he will expect them to be impressive. The students will then succeed.

--------------------
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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10129081 - 04/08/09 09:22 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Actually IMO by denying our animal natures in full we become self hating.

That is the point of much of my posting here. IMO our salvation as a species rests in our ability to let go of the hero or perfection complex or the opposite and realize that most of what we are is animal primate behavior, normal and natural and learn to accept it and work with it. Understanding ourselves starts here. "You can't get out of it until you get into it" -Genisis

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10129153 - 04/08/09 09:38 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I have heard it said that the human form is highly unlikely result of evolution, that if the evolution of all species were compared to twigs connected to sticks connected to branches, connected to the trunk of the tree from which we are all evolved, that our human twig would almost certainly not be duplicated on another life-friendly planet, and we are the result of a bizarre set of circumstances.

I also tend to think that people share characteristics of primates but behave more like viruses, given our tendency to wreak havoc on our environment.

--------------------
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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10129261 - 04/08/09 09:57 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Fear comes from death anxiety. I have experienced that death anxiety specifically comes from the body and is separate from the consciousness that animates the body. Ayahuasca is what touched off that experience. The mating urge goes away during the Aya experience. All material concerns went away. It is like a preview of death. I work out religiously and take good care of my body. I do not however identify with being it.

--------------------
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Jethro Tull
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10129378 - 04/08/09 10:16 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Actually IMO by denying our animal natures in full we become self hating.

That is the point of much of my posting here. IMO our salvation as a species rests in our ability to let go of the hero or perfection complex or the opposite and realize that most of what we are is animal primate behavior, normal and natural and learn to accept it and work with it. Understanding ourselves starts here. "You can't get out of it until you get into it" -Genisis

This is a really good post. All my talk about "transcending the animal realm" starts with this: recognizing animal primate behavior, learning from it, accepting what has been done, and changing our perspective now.

--------------------
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Jethro Tull
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10129574 - 04/08/09 10:56 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

The Present, page 76:

-----
Mankind will never be able to live together in peace and harmony. It never has and never will. It is impossible, because it is not in mankind’s true nature. Mankind’s true nature is the nature of the beast. People can and do resist it, but it cannot be changed by resisting and repressing it. Only the truth can overcome it.

Mankind will always act like mankind when push comes to shove, and push will always come to shove. When it happens, the majority of mankind will always behave like the animals they are, which drags everyone down to the animal level.

The Beast must die and the only way to kill it is with the truth.

The only way to get rid of the beast is at the source. The beast must die for the spiritual being to be born. If the beast does not die, the whole human race will. We are all in an undeclared mental war for this world.
-----

All you have to do is remember everything balances, so there is no reason not to enjoy every single moment of your life, no matter what is happening.

--------------------
..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

DC at: Oneness

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10129634 - 04/08/09 11:08 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swyfty Swyf said:
I have heard it said that the human form is highly unlikely result of evolution, that if the evolution of all species were compared to twigs connected to sticks connected to branches, connected to the trunk of the tree from which we are all evolved, that our human twig would almost certainly not be duplicated on another life-friendly planet, and we are the result of a bizarre set of circumstances.

I also tend to think that people share characteristics of primates but behave more like viruses, given our tendency to wreak havoc on our environment.

Well everybody gets an opinion. Humans are primates and in body style mostly alike. Noting unusual there. (Links for your unlikely claims please)

Please explain how we behave like viruses, I mean outside of movie fantasy?

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Cubie
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10129654 - 04/08/09 11:11 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

we act like parasites IMO.
We find a place to inhabit.
we leech all resources from said place.

--------------------

Sid and Mr. Madhat <part one> A story by Cubie P. Cubensis
<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10129657 - 04/08/09 11:11 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Fear comes from death anxiety. I have experienced that death anxiety specifically comes from the body and is separate from the consciousness that animates the body. Ayahuasca is what touched off that experience. The mating urge goes away during the Aya experience. All material concerns went away. It is like a preview of death. I work out religiously and take good care of my body. I do not however identify with being it.

While instinctual fear of death is felt in the body it comes from the primitive rear brain. Most death anxiety is consciously or unconsciously from the brain and felt in the body. I not only have experienced this on psychedelics but in daily life.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cubie]
#10129674 - 04/08/09 11:13 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cubie said:
we act like parasites IMO.
We find a place to inhabit.
we leech all resources from said place.

Which is it parasites or virus now? :lol:

By the way we have never leeched "all" the resources from said place and this is the same reason that buffalo move from place to place.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Jethro Tull]
#10129686 - 04/08/09 11:16 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Jethro Tull said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Actually IMO by denying our animal natures in full we become self hating.

That is the point of much of my posting here. IMO our salvation as a species rests in our ability to let go of the hero or perfection complex or the opposite and realize that most of what we are is animal primate behavior, normal and natural and learn to accept it and work with it. Understanding ourselves starts here. "You can't get out of it until you get into it" -Genisis

This is a really good post. All my talk about "transcending the animal realm" starts with this: recognizing animal primate behavior, learning from it, accepting what has been done, and changing our perspective now.

Your post is an example IMO of the Hero complex at work. There is no transcending of our animal nature, it's what we have to work with and if we do it skillfully it's all we need.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Jethro Tull]
#10129697 - 04/08/09 11:17 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Jethro Tull said:
The Present, page 76:

-----
Mankind will never be able to live together in peace and harmony. It never has and never will. It is impossible, because it is not in mankind�s true nature. Mankind�s true nature is the nature of the beast. People can and do resist it, but it cannot be changed by resisting and repressing it. Only the truth can overcome it.

Mankind will always act like mankind when push comes to shove, and push will always come to shove. When it happens, the majority of mankind will always behave like the animals they are, which drags everyone down to the animal level.

The Beast must die and the only way to kill it is with the truth.

The only way to get rid of the beast is at the source. The beast must die for the spiritual being to be born. If the beast does not die, the whole human race will. We are all in an undeclared mental war for this world.
-----

All you have to do is remember everything balances, so there is no reason not to enjoy every single moment of your life, no matter what is happening.

Hero complex and death anxiety. This guys got it bad IMO.

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Cubie
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10129715 - 04/08/09 11:20 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Cubie said:
we act like parasites IMO.
We find a place to inhabit.
we leech all resources from said place.

Which is it parasites or virus now? By the way we have never leeched "all" the resources from said place and this is the same reason that buffalo move from place to place.

the other guy said something about the viruses.\

and yes i agree you have a point. i should have used my brain before i said that because it doesn't stand anyways, the said place is not living...

transcending our animal nature...
People do this everyday with Willpower.

--------------------

Sid and Mr. Madhat <part one> A story by Cubie P. Cubensis
<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

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Jethro Tull
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10129741 - 04/08/09 11:23 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Hero complex and death anxiety. This guys got it bad IMO.

If that's all you're going to rest on, what can I do? :shrug:

I see that section as directly related to this thread title.
It's seems to me that you are using the learned concepts of "hero complex" and "death anxiety" to automatically refute everything else without checking it for yourself.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Jethro Tull]
#10129761 - 04/08/09 11:26 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

What haven't I checked out? Tell me please. It's not like I didn't try and need to believe all that at one time.

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Cubie
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Jethro Tull]
#10129765 - 04/08/09 11:27 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

they are only related if you can prove that animals dont know they are going to die.

Elephants have been known to viset the grave of loved ones every year, They gotta know that it could happen to them as well

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<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

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Saidin
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10129978 - 04/08/09 11:58 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zen buddy said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Sorry but you are wrong, at least in my case. I do not think for a minute that someone is good or bad based on what they say. I may not like their programming but they and we are all IMO. NOT GUILTY. I may not want to be around unskillful behavior or thinking but it's not who we are man.

What are we then, if not our behavior or thinking?

Isn't our behavior and thinking just another expression of who we are?

Good question and good point. Yes it is part of what we are but not near the whole. It is IMO our surface programs that connect us to our culture and social programs, our mask. These are instilled in us from our environment. You were born in America. So are you an American or a primate human? What carries the most weight?

My personal view on humans is that what we are part of the web of life. That is central and there can be no calling that good or bad or right or wrong. I try to remember that whenever I am in conflict with someones programs. My programs are also conflicted. There is plenty in my thinking and actions that I don't like and haven't been able to change. I'm not however going to hate myself over if I can help it because it's not functional towards my happiness. I try and accept others on those conditions also. If I fail occasionally that's just part of the mess.

Kind of like the Christians say, "Hate the sin and not the sinner."

Excellent point. I strive to remember much of this as well when I am dealing with other people, as well as with myself.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10129997 - 04/08/09 12:01 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
My personal view on humans is that what we are part of the web of life.

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Saidin
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10130021 - 04/08/09 12:04 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swyfty Swyf said:
I have heard it said that the human form is highly unlikely result of evolution, that if the evolution of all species were compared to twigs connected to sticks connected to branches, connected to the trunk of the tree from which we are all evolved, that our human twig would almost certainly not be duplicated on another life-friendly planet, and we are the result of a bizarre set of circumstances.

This is very true.

What if humans(humanoid) lifeforms are the natural vessel for intelligence in the galaxy? Highly dubious, but it could be that there is a blueprint for higher intelligence and we are it. Some of the UFO Disclosure "whistleblowers" claim this, that humaniods are the norm in our galaxy, and that we are just one of a multitude of varities.

Edited by Saidin (04/08/09 12:10 PM)

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Cubie
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Saidin]
#10130034 - 04/08/09 12:06 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

i dont think you can link body form and mental capasitys

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<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10130144 - 04/08/09 12:26 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Swyfty Swyf said:
I have heard it said that the human form is highly unlikely result of evolution, that if the evolution of all species were compared to twigs connected to sticks connected to branches, connected to the trunk of the tree from which we are all evolved, that our human twig would almost certainly not be duplicated on another life-friendly planet, and we are the result of a bizarre set of circumstances.

I also tend to think that people share characteristics of primates but behave more like viruses, given our tendency to wreak havoc on our environment.

Well everybody gets an opinion. Humans are primates and in body style mostly alike. Noting unusual there. (Links for your unlikely claims please)

Please explain how we behave like viruses, I mean outside of movie fantasy?

I understand that humans are primates, and I totally stand by our biological classification as Homo sapiens, but we do behave as viruses.

Our existence has been and will continue to be disasterous for all other life forms on our planet.

Ever heard of global warming?

The rise in the oceans' temperatures are causing the reefs to bleach, and since 90% of aquatic life depend on the reef for survival, it's going to be bad news for them immediately, which will certainly act as a chain reaction to bring on the extinction of the other 10% of aquatic life.

Somehow, I get the feeling that life on land will not be business as usual when the oceans are lifeless.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10130286 - 04/08/09 12:50 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swyfty Swyf said:
Ever heard of global warming?

We humans are only partially responsible for climate change. There are other things going on that are having a larger effect on our climate.

All the planets in our solar system are experiencing climate change, it is not just the earth.

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Saidin]
#10130402 - 04/08/09 01:08 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Republican National Convention whore much?

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10130476 - 04/08/09 01:20 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Knee jerk much?

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10130495 - 04/08/09 01:22 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Ask rhetorical questions much?

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10130523 - 04/08/09 01:26 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Play poke er much?

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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10130527 - 04/08/09 01:27 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Wax philosophical much?

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10130631 - 04/08/09 01:47 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

not him, somebody broke his little heart way back when and now he won't go there.

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10130704 - 04/08/09 01:59 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
not him, somebody broke his little heart way back when and now he won't go there.

At least get your facts straight: It was my widdle heart...

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10130719 - 04/08/09 02:01 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I pray for your healing every day, and that I win the lottery.

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10130784 - 04/08/09 02:11 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I pray for your healing every day, and that I win the lottery.

I was wondering why I wasn't getting any better. Now I know.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10130799 - 04/08/09 02:13 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

And I haven't won the lottery.

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10130858 - 04/08/09 02:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

If prayer doesn't work, don't question its efficacy, just pray harder! Have faith, brother.

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Saidin
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10130936 - 04/08/09 02:31 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swyfty Swyf said:
Republican National Convention whore much?

LOL, wow. Way off the mark.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Saidin]
#10130992 - 04/08/09 02:39 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah that was some closed minded knee jerk response. Kind of makes one think twice about hanging out with liberals. Who btw are often as closed minded as neo-cons.

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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10131019 - 04/08/09 02:43 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Most people are closed minded and think they are right about everything, its just the ego. Proper evidence can change that tho.

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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Edited by Cognitive_Shift (04/08/09 02:44 PM)

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10131025 - 04/08/09 02:44 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

It's common in all as far as I know. But it doesn't always have to work that way.

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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10131046 - 04/08/09 02:46 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

No, if you can suppress the ego, you can start to find truth void of ego defense mechanism. A pharmacological agent is the only thing that can change that imo.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10131058 - 04/08/09 02:47 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10131083 - 04/08/09 02:51 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

--------------------
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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10131096 - 04/08/09 02:54 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

What's this about republicrats? Divide et impera...

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deff
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10131097 - 04/08/09 02:54 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swyfty Swyf said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Swyfty Swyf said:
I have heard it said that the human form is highly unlikely result of evolution, that if the evolution of all species were compared to twigs connected to sticks connected to branches, connected to the trunk of the tree from which we are all evolved, that our human twig would almost certainly not be duplicated on another life-friendly planet, and we are the result of a bizarre set of circumstances.

I also tend to think that people share characteristics of primates but behave more like viruses, given our tendency to wreak havoc on our environment.

Well everybody gets an opinion. Humans are primates and in body style mostly alike. Noting unusual there. (Links for your unlikely claims please)

Please explain how we behave like viruses, I mean outside of movie fantasy?

I understand that humans are primates, and I totally stand by our biological classification as Homo sapiens, but we do behave as viruses.

Our existence has been and will continue to be disasterous for all other life forms on our planet.

Ever heard of global warming?

The rise in the oceans' temperatures are causing the reefs to bleach, and since 90% of aquatic life depend on the reef for survival, it's going to be bad news for them immediately, which will certainly act as a chain reaction to bring on the extinction of the other 10% of aquatic life.

Somehow, I get the feeling that life on land will not be business as usual when the oceans are lifeless.

That's creditable to, in my opinion, rampant consumerist culture and supporting an incredibly large population. There's many groups of people who live very much in tune with their environment, i.e. many aboriginals. To say human beings as a whole are a virus... hmm... in the last couple hundred years sure.... I guess when you have a lot of desires and an intelligence capable of fulfilling them at all cost... yeah.

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10131251 - 04/08/09 03:13 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I see your point that humans existed for millenia without disturbing the earth's natural processes, but it is hard not to consider the human race a virus, if you have ever been in a plane and marveled at the countryside before closing in on say, Atlanta, and seeing the asphalt, concrete, and smog.

I cannot deny my part in the catastrophe.

Ironically, I happen to drive a Jeep Laredo with a "Save the Environment" tag!

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10131261 - 04/08/09 03:14 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

More like a cancer if you ask me.

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10131283 - 04/08/09 03:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Thank you.

A cancer.

Millions of individual organisms going about their business with the intention of growing and thriving, while unwittingly causing the demise of their host, as well as theirselves.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10131297 - 04/08/09 03:20 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

It's the fact that they are growing wildly out of pace with the rest of the organism. Using up all nutrients needed for stasis and killing the host.

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deff
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10131309 - 04/08/09 03:22 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I agree the metaphor works, but there's still groups of people opposed to industrial evolution, etc. (though becoming fewer and fewer)

I think it would be best to trace back when this cancer came into the human race, and why it's been so successful at spreading amongst us. Initially ignorance I'd say - caused from a detachment from nature :smile:

Then GRRRRREEEED :pirate:

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Saidin
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10131314 - 04/08/09 03:22 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swyfty Swyf said:
Thank you.

A cancer.

Millions of individual organisms going about their business with the intention of growing and thriving, while unwittingly causing the demise of their host, as well as theirselves.

Yep, this describes humanity perfectly at the moment.

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10131323 - 04/08/09 03:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

However, I am not convinced that we would destroy the world.

Hell, killing ourselves off along with a plethora of other species probably wouldn't slow the world down a notch.

The next intelligent lifeform might look like a fuckin cock-a-roach!

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Saidin
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10131333 - 04/08/09 03:24 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:
I think it would be best to trace back when this cancer came into the human race, and why it's been so successful at spreading amongst us. Initially ignorance I'd say - caused from a detachment from nature

Then GRRRRREEEED

It can probably be linked back to the Renaissance. In my opinion it was then that humans separated themselves from nature.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10131342 - 04/08/09 03:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

We may destroy ourselves and cause lots of animal and plant extinctions but that's not cause for alarm on this planet.

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deff
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Saidin]
#10131353 - 04/08/09 03:26 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Well the fact we're having this conversation right now, as many many people have (we're killing the planet!) shows that whatever ignorance led us to this is slowly being revealed.

After awareness of the problem, comes giving up the greed that keeps it going :3

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10131354 - 04/08/09 03:26 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
We may destroy ourselves and cause lots of animal and plant extinctions but that's not cause for alarm on this planet.

--------------------
If you build it, they will shrug.

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10131386 - 04/08/09 03:30 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Well the fact we're having this conversation right now, as many many people have (we're killing the planet!) shows that whatever ignorance led us to this is slowly being revealed.

After awareness of the problem, comes giving up the greed that keeps it going :3

You first.

I'm keeping my Laredo, and blaming the fuckers that built it.

I think I'll keep my job, too, even though I am an industrial and commercial electrical contractor who lives primarily on defense-based government contracts. :satansmoking:

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deff
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10131433 - 04/08/09 03:36 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

heh... I'm an environmental engineer who doesn't own a car :blush:

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10131441 - 04/08/09 03:37 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

sweet

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10131446 - 04/08/09 03:38 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I guess your carbon footprint is smaller than mine.

I wear a size 12, and you know what they say about guys with big carbon footprints.....

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deff
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10131457 - 04/08/09 03:39 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

they have big carbon feet? :X

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Grapefruit
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10131464 - 04/08/09 03:40 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Fuck it we can't do that much harm on a relative scale, stuff will recover.

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Grapefruit]
#10131487 - 04/08/09 03:42 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I like your optimism, but I am afraid the coral reefs are still bleaching at an unreversible rate.

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deff
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10131505 - 04/08/09 03:44 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

As much as the argument is always "we're selfish so we destroy the earth"... it's in our best interest to save it too. it's our home :smile:

also... i dunno about you... but i'd rather spend a day in a forest than at walgreens

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10131522 - 04/08/09 03:46 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Meh I'm not optimistic I just trust there have been much bigger disasters in the past and we still have the ecological diversity we have today. Basically, I can't be arsed to go to these save the planet protests with my mates. :shrug:

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10131533 - 04/08/09 03:46 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Sure, I enjoy hiking, scuba diving, and conoeing as much as the next toker, but I didn't create the system, I am just trying to survive and provide for my family in it.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Grapefruit]
#10131558 - 04/08/09 03:50 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Meh I'm not optimistic I just trust there have been much bigger disasters in the past

Yeah the past didn't exactly have billions of humans destroying the environment with a capitalistic "I need to make money, if i alter the sustainability of the environment, i don't care, not my problem."

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10131560 - 04/08/09 03:50 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

They all get the train down anyway. :crazy2:

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10131570 - 04/08/09 03:51 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Meh I'm not optimistic I just trust there have been much bigger disasters in the past

Yeah the past didn't exactly have billions of humans destroying the environment with a capitalistic "I need to make money, if i alter the sustainability of the environment, i don't care, not my problem."

It was just as out of control though.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Grapefruit]
#10131581 - 04/08/09 03:53 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

As if protesting would change anything.

Screaming assholes with signs are ignored.

If one really wants the attention of the powers that be, he would write a letter with his name signed to it, so that he might be ridiculed.

Like Ghandi said, "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10131590 - 04/08/09 03:54 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Be the change you want to see. :rockon:

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Grapefruit]
#10131644 - 04/08/09 04:04 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Fuck it we can't do that much harm on a relative scale, stuff will recover.

Tell that to the guy who had a nuke go off in his back yard. We can do enormous harm in any scale.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Grapefruit]
#10131647 - 04/08/09 04:05 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

My state's representatives from all counties, senators from all counties, and Congressmen know me by name, unless they delete all their emails. :wink:

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Saidin]
#10131680 - 04/08/09 04:10 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Saidin said:
Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Fuck it we can't do that much harm on a relative scale, stuff will recover.

Tell that to the guy who had a nuke go off in his back yard. We can do enormous harm in any scale.

Relatively it doesn't take that much time to recover. Doesn't make that much difference. Everyone thinks something to do with them carries importance. Another planet? Another time? Who cares?

What do you think will bring relief from global pollution first, change in opinion or technological advancement? I opt for the latter.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Grapefruit]
#10131753 - 04/08/09 04:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

when it causes suffering, it becomes important (imo)

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Grapefruit]
#10131774 - 04/08/09 04:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Meh I'm not optimistic I just trust there have been much bigger disasters in the past

Yeah the past didn't exactly have billions of humans destroying the environment with a capitalistic "I need to make money, if i alter the sustainability of the environment, i don't care, not my problem."

It was just as out of control though.

Ummmmm no. No it wasn't. Sorry but alligators were not burning fossil fuels and increasing CO2 in the atmosphere. That is 100% anthropogenically caused. Humming birds weren't filling the ground with millions of tons of consumer trash (land fills)

I can't believe you can sit there and say there is no difference, that humans haven't exacerbated the destruction of the environment.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10131782 - 04/08/09 04:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I'm all for pumping money into technological advancement but suddenly turning off transport systems would probably cause more harm than good IMO. Too little too late, too heavily reliant.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Grapefruit]
#10131797 - 04/08/09 04:24 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I agree, we've grown to a huge population based off this interconnected specializing. The first thing to go though should be excessive material desires, which would take a substantial load off.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10131802 - 04/08/09 04:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Meh I'm not optimistic I just trust there have been much bigger disasters in the past

Yeah the past didn't exactly have billions of humans destroying the environment with a capitalistic "I need to make money, if i alter the sustainability of the environment, i don't care, not my problem."

It was just as out of control though.

Ummmmm no. No it wasn't. Sorry but alligators were not burning fossil fuels and increasing CO2 in the atmosphere. That is 100% anthropogenically caused. Humming birds weren't filling the ground with millions of tons of consumer trash (land fills)

I can't believe you can sit there and say there is no difference, that humans haven't exacerbated the destruction of the environment.

Never said that. I always found attempting to change others to be a lost cause and therefore focus on self change.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10131822 - 04/08/09 04:27 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:
I agree, we've grown to a huge population based off this interconnected specializing. The first thing to go though should be excessive material desires, which would take a substantial load off.

Awww...but keeping up with the Jones' is so fulfilling!

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10131836 - 04/08/09 04:29 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:
I agree, we've grown to a huge population based off this interconnected specializing. The first thing to go though should be excessive material desires, which would take a substantial load off.

Agreed but as far as I can see a change like this is too far down the road to be viable at the moment. I also think the human race may be in the need of a good dose of global suffering anyway, it has the potential to speed up our cultural evolution in a big way.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Grapefruit]
#10131916 - 04/08/09 04:42 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Actually that's exactly what you said.

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Yeah the past didn't exactly have billions of humans destroying the environment with a capitalistic "I need to make money, if i alter the sustainability of the environment, i don't care, not my problem."

It was just as out of control though.

Ummmmm no. No it wasn't. Sorry but alligators were not burning fossil fuels and increasing CO2 in the atmosphere. That is 100% anthropogenically caused. Humming birds weren't filling the ground with millions of tons of consumer trash (land fills)

I can't believe you can sit there and say there is no difference, that humans haven't exacerbated the destruction of the environment.

Never said that. I always found attempting to change others to be a lost cause and therefore focus on self change.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10134342 - 04/09/09 02:19 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

All it meant was that I believe humans are just as out of control as any other natural disaster. Humans are a natural disaster as a product of evolution.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Grapefruit]
#10134440 - 04/09/09 03:31 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Either way, enjoy the carnival.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Lakefingers]
#10134920 - 04/09/09 07:42 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I can't believe I made it to the end of this thread.

Of course a good argument can be made that we are no different than any other animal on the large scale. And it can easily be argued against as well - i mean, blue eyes are different than green eyes. On what scale are you measuring the difference? I tend to think that when you compare us to the infinity out there that we can not even comprehend, we are much more similar to anything on this planet than we are different.

I don't buy into the fact that other animals don't perceive their death. Why do they run from predators? When I hang my cat over the stairs, it freaks the fk out. Anyway I am sure there is some answer for that, but logic tells me they don't want to die.

It is good to realize our similarities to the other organisms so that we can respect them appropriately- I mean when we eat them.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Saidin]
#10134971 - 04/09/09 07:57 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

We are referring to killing off the earths ecosystem.

Getting rid of humans would be a good thing now for the planet. Look at all the havoc we wreak, just think how bad it's going to get the longer we stay here.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10135043 - 04/09/09 08:16 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Killing off humans? Oh geez. there may be too much widespread opposition to that. Then we would have nothing to talk about.

I think there are better options. The planet is going to get destroyed one way or another anyhow.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: axl]
#10135051 - 04/09/09 08:18 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

My ears are open, let's have some options.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: axl]
#10135053 - 04/09/09 08:18 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

how does one destroy the planet? just the biosphere?

I think we're too smart to do that, and will collectively respond, which I think we've started to do in very small steps (such as these conversations)

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10135125 - 04/09/09 08:38 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah let's talk about it. Cool, but first let me drive my SUV down to the corner Minutemart and get snacks and some drinks. Then we can get down and talk forever.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10135151 - 04/09/09 08:43 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe some form of population control, or to be more pc - population regulation.

Less consumption (sustainability). Better awareness, education. More self respect. Less division. Much easier said then done.

We are a pretty young species that got off to a bad start but may turn out alright (ok it's a crap shoot). But destroying ourselves is just a short term solution to the imminent eventual doom of the earth.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10135154 - 04/09/09 08:43 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Well we responded to the ozone crisis and banned certain chemicals... and now the ozone layer is recovering

With global warming, look how mainstream the issue is now... there's very few people who know the issue and doubt it. Look at all the talk of carbon footprints and sustainability and Green technology and renewable energy. The 70s sparked the real beginnings of environmentalism (in our 'culture') but then we got collectively lazy again. Now it's becoming 'hip' to be environmental, and consumer choices are becoming impacted.

Corporations that would never risk profits for the environment in the past now have Green lines out to meet this new consumer demand. It's obviously a small initial step, but things have a way of working out collectively, in my opinion.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10135175 - 04/09/09 08:50 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

and now the ozone layer is recovering

Not sure what that means. The atmosphere has changed continuously since the beginning. There is no correct or right amount of ozone.

If the changes became deadly to humans then populations would shrink until humans could no longer pollute enough to have much effect. All systems are basically self-regulating.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10135189 - 04/09/09 08:53 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

well its a complicated chemical process for which the equilibrium concentration in the past has been ideal for life (or rather life has been evolved to be ideal for), and which airborne pollutants have shifted the equilibrium concentration much lower... now it's recovering relative to previous levels without anthropogenic sources

so yeah, it's still about human survival... but what is earth without life anyways. you don't hear many people caring about protecting venus.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10135196 - 04/09/09 08:54 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Well we responded to the ozone crisis and banned certain chemicals... and now the ozone layer is recovering

With global warming, look how mainstream the issue is now... there's very few people who know the issue and doubt it. Look at all the talk of carbon footprints and sustainability and Green technology and renewable energy. The 70s sparked the real beginnings of environmentalism (in our 'culture') but then we got collectively lazy again. Now it's becoming 'hip' to be environmental, and consumer choices are becoming impacted.

Corporations that would never risk profits for the environment in the past now have Green lines out to meet this new consumer demand. It's obviously a small initial step, but things have a way of working out collectively, in my opinion.

but things have a way of working out collectively, in my opinion.

Like in Iraq and Afghanistan and lots of Africa and such. Or were you just referring to you and your friends?

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10135270 - 04/09/09 09:07 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I meant for the human race's collective genetic survival

though war... ermm yeah... never understood that one

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10135274 - 04/09/09 09:08 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

The wars you pay for.;)

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10135287 - 04/09/09 09:11 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

everyone pays for

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10135290 - 04/09/09 09:12 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

i'm not some capitalistic American lol... or American at all to begin with (not that there aren't awesome Americans!)

i don't spend much money .. but i guesssss.... mayyyybe.... the groceries i buy..... fund ... war

but whoever decided to fund war with groceries sales is a sick sick man

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10135335 - 04/09/09 09:23 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:
how does one destroy the planet? just the biosphere?

I think we're too smart to do that, and will collectively respond, which I think we've started to do in very small steps (such as these conversations)

It doesn't matter how smart we are...with today's technology it only takes one person with a deadly pathogen in order to take out a majority of the human race.

Societal smartness is irrelevant as a single idiot could destroy us all.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10135358 - 04/09/09 09:28 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:
i'm not some capitalistic American lol... or American at all to begin with (not that there aren't awesome Americans!)

i don't spend much money .. but i guesssss.... mayyyybe.... the groceries i buy..... fund ... war

Do you pay any form of Tax? Gas tax? Sales (VAT) tax? Income tax? If you do any of those things you are funding war.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Saidin]
#10135378 - 04/09/09 09:32 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yah dood, we go along now because really there in no good alternative to this really ugly, IMO, situation.

Hard to go back to being a hunter gatherer on somebody's private land. :minigun:

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10135495 - 04/09/09 09:54 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

You could always drive your SUV out into the woods and kill a deer. :shrug:

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Saidin]
#10135520 - 04/09/09 10:00 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Saidin said:
Quote:

deff said:
i'm not some capitalistic American lol... or American at all to begin with (not that there aren't awesome Americans!)

i don't spend much money .. but i guesssss.... mayyyybe.... the groceries i buy..... fund ... war

Do you pay any form of Tax? Gas tax? Sales (VAT) tax? Income tax? If you do any of those things you are funding war.

true... most of the tax here (Canada) goes to beneficial causes as far as I've seen. Though we are in Afghanistan... err "we". But the % of collected taxes funding our few thousand troops is really small... but I guess. We have a really small military lol... and I'm optimistic about the future of international cooperation in uniting divisions between people... but I'm young and naive

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deff]
#10135937 - 04/09/09 11:05 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

but I'm young and naive

You have no idea what a difference this makes. :thumbup:

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10136269 - 04/09/09 12:06 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Ahh, to be outside the rabbit hole once again. Why did I take the Red Pill! :crazy2:

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Saidin]
#10136498 - 04/09/09 12:41 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

i just don't get out much :P

anyways, the human "world" is but a self-manifested illusion :grin:

one that can nuke you no less

but still an illusion

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Saidin]
#10136851 - 04/09/09 01:34 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Saidin said:
Ahh, to be outside the rabbit hole once again. Why did I take the Red Pill!

Actually it's possible you didn't quite make it to the bottom of that hole. I now believe it runs in a circle. :satansmoking:

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10137486 - 04/09/09 03:22 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Oh, I don't believe that I've made it to the bottom, and have had the feeling for a short while that it may just go in circles as you say.

It all changes, yet stays the same...

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Saidin]
#10137491 - 04/09/09 03:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

It all changes, yet stays the same...

Which brings us back to my OP.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10144777 - 04/10/09 07:13 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
We are referring to killing off the earths ecosystem.

Getting rid of humans would be a good thing now for the planet. Look at all the havoc we wreak, just think how bad it's going to get the longer we stay here.

Unless we blow it up the earth is going to shake us off in relatively no time.

Ants and bacteria are great, but you're a human, which is cool too.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Lakefingers]
#10146967 - 04/11/09 09:03 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Instead of examining the symptoms of the problem perhaps we would do better ascertaining the root causation of the underlying psychosis that effects humans. Other animals fight for territory, mates, and resources. Humans are strange in that they will kill even when their life/style is not apparently threatened.

The R-complex in the brain may be key in curing the insanity.

I know some people who have done Yoga for years. They seem to be devoid of the "serial killer psychosis" that most people have to one degree or another. Yoga is one tool for working directly with the central nervous system....

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10146988 - 04/11/09 09:12 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Humans are strange in that they will kill even when their life/style is not apparently threatened.

To rephrase what you said: humans are strange because they kill or harm other humans for reasons that other people can't see. Of course, just because other people can't seem to be able to look deeper, it doesn't mean that the person who committed the crime didn't feel threatened, for more or less grounded reason.
I'm just curious to know what you thought was so strange about this. :confused:

--------------------

All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug:

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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10147064 - 04/11/09 09:35 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

The reason why it is strange is because it is not conducive to the survival of the species as a whole. Also, I have noticed that the strategy of "divide et impera" has been used throughout history buy authority figures....

I am stating that there is "something rotten in the state of Denmark."

I think that it is not natural for a species to wish to kill itself. I suspect shenanigans.

--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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MushroomTrip
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10147112 - 04/11/09 09:49 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The reason why it is strange is because it is not conducive to the survival of the species as a whole.

Of course it is not constructive for the whole, since the whole is broken when a part of them die. Tell me something new. :lol:

Quote:

Also, I have noticed that the strategy of "divide et impera" has been used throughout history buy authority figures....

Has been used by authority figures and... what? :sherlock:

Quote:

I think that it is not natural for a species to wish to kill itself. I suspect shenanigans.

How could it not be natural, if it really happens? Everything that happens is natural, I'm really confused about what you're trying to say here.
The fact that a person feels threatened for some reason, and as a result of this threat he ends up killing or harming other person, doesn't suggest that the species will kill itself, it's too far fetched in my opinion.
I'm not saying that it is intelligent or that it would be preferable for someone, anyone, to act on these fears and harm others, but this doesn't mean that things aren't just following their natural course, or that this is universally bad.

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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10147175 - 04/11/09 10:03 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I am suggesting that the caduceus looks a lot like a representation of D.N.A. Early humans did not know a thing about D.N.A. It looks like humans may have been altered genetically.

Reagan

Divide et impera... It is easy to control a species divided amongst itself.

--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (04/11/09 10:06 AM)

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MushroomTrip
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10147196 - 04/11/09 10:07 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I am suggesting that the caduceus looks a lot like a representation of D.N.A. Early humans did not know a thing about D.N.A. It looks like humans may have been altered genetically.

It looks like? Care to explain this?

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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10147206 - 04/11/09 10:08 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Where did the caduceus come from?

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MushroomTrip
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10147221 - 04/11/09 10:11 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

"It looks like humans may have been altered genetically." - this. :grin:

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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10147241 - 04/11/09 10:14 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

The caduceus looks like a representation of a D.N.A. double helix. What would such a symbol be doing on a caveman's wall?

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MushroomTrip
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10147249 - 04/11/09 10:15 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

What would such a symbol be doing on a caveman's wall?

I'm unaware of something like this existing, enlighten me.

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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10147287 - 04/11/09 10:22 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
The caduceus looks like a representation of a D.N.A. double helix. What would such a symbol be doing on a caveman's wall?

It has been a record setting 6.2 hours since we have had an Argument from Ignorance.

Yes folks, because we don't understand the origin of a symbol, the only logical explanation is aliens. Jee-zus on a stick!

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MushroomTrip
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10147299 - 04/11/09 10:25 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Shhh, you're scaring them away. :evil2:

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10147313 - 04/11/09 10:29 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I thought smacking the surface of the water attracted the fish... :shrug:

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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10147436 - 04/11/09 11:00 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

O.C. sez:

"Move along folks, nothing to see here..."

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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10147444 - 04/11/09 11:03 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Oh sure, it's real easy to proselytize the viewpoint that aliens have never visited the Earth. That is the socially acceptable viewpoint. The U.S. government says the same thing, and they never lie about anything!

Government disinfo much?

--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (04/11/09 11:05 AM)

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MushroomTrip
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10147463 - 04/11/09 11:07 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

So am I ever going to get my answer?

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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10147480 - 04/11/09 11:09 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Instead of just asking questions why don't you try asking yourself where the caduceus came from?

It is just altogether too easy for you to just sit there and ask 20 questions.

--------------------
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deCypher

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10147497 - 04/11/09 11:12 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
The reason why it is strange is because it is not conducive to the survival of the species as a whole. Also, I have noticed that the strategy of "divide et impera" has been used throughout history buy authority figures....

I am stating that there is "something rotten in the state of Denmark."

I think that it is not natural for a species to wish to kill itself. I suspect shenanigans.

It's all a matter of perspective. Trends that perpetuate the species as a whole certainly exist, and their survival is more likely than those who don't. However, trends that perpetuate the survival of an individual also exist, and the survival of these trends is also more likely than those that don't.

Both altruistic tendencies and selfish tendencies exist in an eternal predator/prey type of fluctuating relationship. Richard Dawkins' The Selfish Gene has some good reading on this.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10147523 - 04/11/09 11:16 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Also, I have noticed that the strategy of "divide et impera" has been used throughout history buy authority figures....

Has been used by authority figures and... what? :sherlock:

Ever since Julius Caesar we have seen this strategy. Today it is most evident in the ridiculous two party system in which both parties are much more similar than different. People don't want to go to wars with other nations. Certain timely events occur which are used for sociological manipulation purposes.

Id Est: The burning of the Reichstag circa Germany just prior to the Enabling Act and WWII. 911 and the Patriot Act and the second invasion of Iraq.

Fuck, Prescott Bush was laundering money for the Nazi during WWII and both his son and grandson became prez.

Seriously though "nothing to see here folks".

--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10147546 - 04/11/09 11:18 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:

It's all a matter of perspective.....

Yeah, sociopathic neo nazi presidents... The Constitution being trampled on... It's all a matter of perspective

The average joe does have some issues and very slight psychosis. The clowns in high offices have an unusually high level of sociopathy. Certain families have been in high offices for some time.

Right, move along folks nothing to see here...

--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (04/11/09 11:21 AM)

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deCypher

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10147569 - 04/11/09 11:20 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yep.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10147581 - 04/11/09 11:22 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

--------------------
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10147708 - 04/11/09 11:39 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Both altruistic tendencies and selfish tendencies exist in an eternal predator/prey type of fluctuating relationship. Richard Dawkins' The Selfish Gene has some good reading on this.

I prefer 'The Shellfish Gene' by T. Mollusk...

--------------------

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deCypher

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10147715 - 04/11/09 11:40 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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MushroomTrip
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10147915 - 04/11/09 12:20 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
People don't want to go to wars with other nations.

What people? I've seen some pretty wild manifestations from large groups of people, FOR war.

Quote:

Certain timely events occur which are used for sociological manipulation purposes.

Substantiation?
Look, as much as you love to talk nonsense, this is a debate forum, and you're in for quite the mess if you keep making claims like these, without showing how they're true. If you weren't aware of the function of this forum, you are now, and you can feel free to read the rules and choose if you want to keep posting here or not.

Quote:

Instead of just asking questions why don't you try asking yourself where the caduceus came from?

It is just altogether too easy for you to just sit there and ask 20 questions.

Read what I just said above.

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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10148429 - 04/11/09 02:50 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Like I said before about "certain timely events"; Hitler staged the destruction of the German Reichstag in order to make a power grab that began with the Enabling Act. George W. is the grandson of a money laundering Nazi war criminal. The "Patriot Act" that followed 911 is very similar to the Enabling Act.

I think you possess enough intelligence to connect the dots here. People have been manipulated into wars for a long time now. WWI the sinking of the Lusitania was the plan for pulling Americans into the war. WWII it was the bombing (the U.S. government had plenty of advance notice) of Pearl Harbor that got us into that. The Germans were manipulated through a false flag terror attack planned out by Hitler's goons.

Seriously, the pattern of sociological manipulation of the people by the government is pretty easy to see.

--------------------
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10148486 - 04/11/09 03:03 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I think we are animals.

That statement is pretty non-refutable. Any time you take a materialistic view of something its tough to refute, because its right there in front of us. We can see it and create ideas about it, because its sitting right there. We can smell, taste, feel, hear and see it. Its clear as day. However to make assumptions about the nature of the unvierse purely based on what an organism can smell, taste, feel, hear and see is naive. Because your assumptions are based on VERY LIMITED information compared to the pure information of the universe. You cannot say with out a doubt 100% that the universe is as it appears. Something made of matter, and pretty much confined to its surface. Because the information in which that assumption is based on is limited.

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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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BlimeyGrimey
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10149223 - 04/11/09 06:44 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
I think we are animals.

That statement is pretty non-refutable. Any time you take a materialistic view of something its tough to refute, because its right there in front of us. We can see it and create ideas about it, because its sitting right there. We can smell, taste, feel, hear and see it. Its clear as day. However to make assumptions about the nature of the unvierse purely based on what an organism can smell, taste, feel, hear and see is naive. Because your assumptions are based on VERY LIMITED information compared to the pure information of the universe. You cannot say with out a doubt 100% that the universe is as it appears. Something made of matter, and pretty much confined to its surface. Because the information in which that assumption is based on is limited.

Well put! Your screen name is very suitable.

5 senses isn't enough to "see" everything.

--------------------
I've done no harm, I keep to myself. There's nothing wrong with my state of mental health.

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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10155590 - 04/12/09 11:28 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
I think we are animals.

That statement is pretty non-refutable. Any time you take a materialistic view of something its tough to refute, because its right there in front of us. We can see it and create ideas about it, because its sitting right there. We can smell, taste, feel, hear and see it. Its clear as day. However to make assumptions about the nature of the unvierse purely based on what an organism can smell, taste, feel, hear and see is naive. Because your assumptions are based on VERY LIMITED information compared to the pure information of the universe. You cannot say with out a doubt 100% that the universe is as it appears. Something made of matter, and pretty much confined to its surface. Because the information in which that assumption is based on is limited.

The statement is fairly easy to refute if one is acquainted with philosophy. The materialist view is a simplistic view based on the simplistic. Matter is easy to perceive; philosophical concepts are not. Man is much more than an animal.

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10155808 - 04/13/09 12:17 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Of course we're special and unique, what other biological organism creates and appreciates art? What other creature has made such a significant impact upon the Earth as us?

--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10155861 - 04/13/09 12:34 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Welcome back.

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Poid
deBunker

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10155863 - 04/13/09 12:35 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Thank you. :mushroom2:

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10156796 - 04/13/09 08:11 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Man is much more than an animal.

You keep saying this without ever providing support for the claim.

I think your problem with us being animal is much more psychological then philosophical.

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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10156934 - 04/13/09 08:59 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

If there is intelligent life "somewhere" they probably think we are very special. As I have said before, there is nothing wrong with humble beginnings. You have to start somewhere, right?!?

--------------------
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10156943 - 04/13/09 09:02 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

No, I keep saying it without the full argument because it needs its own thread. I've alluded to some of the evidence here and there.

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10156952 - 04/13/09 09:05 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:

If there is intelligent life "somewhere" they probably think we are very special. As I have said before, there is nothing wrong with humble beginnings. You have to start somewhere, right?!?

Why would we be any more special than a rat in a laboratory?

How special would we appear if they believe we are peddling headstrong towards our own extinction?

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10156973 - 04/13/09 09:12 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

How do you explain art, then, IceLander?

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
#10156984 - 04/13/09 09:15 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Hey man, just because I am very much "special needs" in comparison to E.T.s that make Einstein look :coleman:

doesn't mean I'm a self-hating human!

It is SOMETHING to know that your smart enough to know that you're not that smart. I am trying to get better with the smart making. I eat the smart drugs (nootropics). I hope we can all stop riding the short-bus.

--------------------
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MushroomTrip
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10156986 - 04/13/09 09:15 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Why do humans need to be MORE than animals in order for art to exist? I just don't see what could make you think this. :shrug:

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10156996 - 04/13/09 09:17 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I never said we are 'more', I am only putting forth the claim that we are special.

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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MushroomTrip
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10156999 - 04/13/09 09:18 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Everybody is.

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Mr.Al
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10157000 - 04/13/09 09:19 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

It might be something like hot water being flavored by the tea leaves inside of the tea pot :sherlock:

--------------------
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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10157014 - 04/13/09 09:23 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

But as a species, in relation to the rest, perhaps we are the most unique and significant, seeing as we are the species which has made the most unique and significant impact on planet Earth.

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10157022 - 04/13/09 09:26 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Why do humans need to be MORE than animals in order for art to exist? I just don't see what could make you think this.

We have to be more because perceptual abstraction only cannot create art. Art is a physical representation of a concept, i.e. it has an idea behind it. Animals without the benefit of conceptual abstraction do not have ideas in the sense of concepts. Only man has that.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10157029 - 04/13/09 09:27 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

And what does this mean?

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10157032 - 04/13/09 09:29 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Huh..?

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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AHughman
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10157034 - 04/13/09 09:29 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I believe we are nothing more than animals, and hence VERY special.

The rarity that life would evolve on a planet and that life would take on these specific forms over billions of years, and that along with incredible variety there is one animal, who though while isn't much different than the rest, this species of human can reflect on itself. It can admire the world, and can enjoy it.

Maybe thats not very different at all from most animals. But the fact that it exists at all is VERY special.

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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: AHughman]
#10157041 - 04/13/09 09:31 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Hey! Welcome the Shroomery and the P&S forum.

Pull up a chair, and have some :coffee:

if you want.

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: AHughman]
#10157045 - 04/13/09 09:32 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Do you think that humans are 'nothing special' in relation to every other biological organism?

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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MushroomTrip
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10157062 - 04/13/09 09:36 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Huh..?

You say we are significant, but this is only your impression, and it doesn't mean that it is shared on a universal level. Perhaps, we are just as significant to ourselves as dolphins are significant to themselves.
The fact that we can change our environment more than any other animal doesn't make us more than animals, since this changes that we're making only matter to us, so it still only according to our judgment that we're more special.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10157094 - 04/13/09 09:44 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
No, I keep saying it without the full argument because it needs its own thread. I've alluded to some of the evidence here and there.

I'll start it. Just tell me what you want to call it. Let's rumble. :satansmoking:

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10157124 - 04/13/09 09:48 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Huh..?

You say we are significant, but this is only your impression, and it doesn't mean that it is shared on a universal level. Perhaps, we are just as significant to ourselves as dolphins are significant to themselves.
The fact that we can change our environment more than any other animal doesn't make us more than animals, since this changes that we're making only matter to us, so it still only according to our judgment that we're more special.

Right. Many animals have unique adaptations that we don't share to that degree or at all. IMO and I surely stand by this, those claiming that we are somehow out of the league of animal or we have some special purpose that is above and beyond other living creatures have an emotional/psychological problem with the ideas and evidence rather than a scientific or philosophical one.

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MushroomTrip
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10157133 - 04/13/09 09:50 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:

We have to be more because perceptual abstraction only cannot create art. Art is a physical representation of a concept, i.e. it has an idea behind it. Animals without the benefit of conceptual abstraction do not have ideas in the sense of concepts. Only man has that.

But this doesn't mane we HAVE to be MORE than animals, we're just animals that seem to excel in this particular domain. Having this function doesn't mean anything more than that. Moreover, until you can tell what other animals can and can not do, without any doubt, I think it's incorrect to say that they don't give physical representations to concepts. Just because we can't see it, it doesn't mean that it couldn't exist. I would be interested in finding out what evidence you have to show that other animals don't have ideas as concepts.
Actually, there's birds that can mimic their predators in as a warning, I think you'll find this and interesting read.

Edit: I am also really curious to find out where that "more" than animals comes from (you know, animals genes + ? genes), what are those mystery genes? :strokebeard:

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Swyfty Swyf
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr.Al]
#10157142 - 04/13/09 09:52 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Hey man, just because I am very much "special needs" in comparison to E.T.s that make Einstein look doesn't mean I'm a self-hating human!

It is SOMETHING to know that your smart enough to know that you're not that smart. I am trying to get better with the smart making. I eat the smart drugs (nootropics). I hope we can all stop riding the short-bus.

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10157154 - 04/13/09 09:55 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

"You say we are significant, but this is only your impression, and it doesn't mean that it is shared on a universal level. Perhaps, we are just as significant to ourselves as dolphins are significant to themselves."

Basically, it's all relative. I'd say, though, that our actions can potentially impact dolphins more significantly than dolphins' actions can impact humans.

"The fact that we can change our environment more than any other animal doesn't make us more than animals, since this changes that we're making only matter to us, so it still only according to our judgment that we're more special."

It makes us more significant if we are capable of impacting and manipulating our environment more significantly than any other creature.

By which postulates are we to define significance anyways? :shrug:

There are many things that make us more special than other animals, just take a look at the Wikipedia article on humans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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MushroomTrip
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10157198 - 04/13/09 10:03 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for the link, as the information was all so new to me. :lol:

Us being able to have a greater impact on the dolphins that dolphins on us doesn't make us "more special" than dolphins, since they are just as special as us, in their action of not interfering with us. :smile:

Also you seem to omit the fact that they can swim better than us, and they have echolocation. :sun:

Quote:

spe⋅cial
/ˈspɛʃəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [spesh-uhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1. of a distinct or particular kind or character: a special kind of key.
2. being a particular one; particular, individual, or certain: You'd better call the special number.
3. pertaining or peculiar to a particular person, thing, instance, etc.; distinctive; unique: the special features of a plan.
4. having a specific or particular function, purpose, etc.: a special messenger.
5. distinguished or different from what is ordinary or usual: a special occasion; to fix something special.
6. extraordinary; exceptional, as in amount or degree; especial: special importance.
7. being such in an exceptional degree; particularly valued: a special friend.

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10157223 - 04/13/09 10:08 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

If you looked up special in the dictionary, you would see people. :smirk:

Quote:

spe⋅cial
/ˈspɛʃəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [spesh-uhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1. of a distinct or particular kind or character: a special kind of key.
2. being a particular one; particular, individual, or certain: You'd better call the special number.
3. pertaining or peculiar to a particular person, thing, instance, etc.; distinctive; unique: the special features of a plan.
4. having a specific or particular function, purpose, etc.: a special messenger.
5. distinguished or different from what is ordinary or usual: a special occasion; to fix something special.
6. extraordinary; exceptional, as in amount or degree; especial: special importance.
7. being such in an exceptional degree; particularly valued: a special friend.

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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MushroomTrip
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10157300 - 04/13/09 10:20 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

The

dictionary? Nah, thanks. :smirk:

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10157383 - 04/13/09 10:36 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

So you don't think us being the only creature that can create and appreciate art is itself proof that we are more special and/or significant than the rest of the creatures that we share this planet with? The ability to express our imaginations is an extremely significant characteristic; many animals exhibit behaviors which are unique to their species whose purpose is to aid them in survival, but only humans spend much of their time pursuing hobbies, arts, and crafts, which serve absolutely no biological purpose.

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10157484 - 04/13/09 10:59 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

So you don't think us being the only creature that can create and appreciate art is itself proof that we are more special and/or significant than the rest of the creatures that we share this planet with?

Not in the least. What's so great about art anyway? Who gives a rats ass that we can scribble or slap paint on a flat surface? I would much rather be able to use my body to fly and soar. Now that's special.

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10157569 - 04/13/09 11:13 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Art isn't only limited to paintings; music, literature, and basically anything else humans create can be considered art. Creating art is one thing, but appreciating and understanding it is another, and to my knowledge, animals are incapable of both. Furthermore, our inability to fly is but a mere physical limitation, whereas an animal's inability to create and/or appreciate art is a mental limitation.

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Zanthius
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10157591 - 04/13/09 11:17 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Right. Many animals have unique adaptations that we don't share to that degree or at all. IMO and I surely stand by this, those claiming that we are somehow out of the league of animal or we have some special purpose that is above and beyond other living creatures have an emotional/psychological problem with the ideas and evidence rather than a scientific or philosophical one.

Well, humans do have an ability to assimilate information from their societies in a completely different way than other animals. For one thing, no other animals have a written language and books they can assimilate information from. Intellectual evolution in humans is mostly about increasing the size of the program you are running in your brain. This program can have its own purpose that is completely different from the purpose given to you by your instincts. Other animals only have the purpose given to them by their instincts. You can also have a purpose given to you by the program running in your brain. I am certainly more dominated by the program running in my brain, than by my instincts.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10157610 - 04/13/09 11:20 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

It has been observed that grizzly bears will sit on mountain ledges at sunset and observe them until they die away. How do you presume to know whether other animals can appreciate whatever?

So what if some animals do not have the same adaptations that we have. How does that make them less? You are totally subjective here based most likely in your emotional need to feel special.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Zanthius]
#10157624 - 04/13/09 11:22 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Right. Many animals have unique adaptations that we don't share to that degree or at all. IMO and I surely stand by this, those claiming that we are somehow out of the league of animal or we have some special purpose that is above and beyond other living creatures have an emotional/psychological problem with the ideas and evidence rather than a scientific or philosophical one.

Well, humans do have an ability to assimilate information from their societies in a completely different way than other animals. For one thing, no other animals have a written language and books they can assimilate information from. Intellectual evolution in humans is mostly about increasing the size of the program you are running in your brain. This program can have its own purpose that is completely different from the purpose given to you by your instincts. Other animals only have the purpose given to them by their instincts. You can also have a purpose given to you by the program running in your brain. I am certainly more dominated by the program running in my brain, than by my instincts.

So? That doesn't make us better or special, only different. A dog can read volumes into smells that you can't even smell. Are they superior and special. By your criteria, yes they are.

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Zanthius
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10157653 - 04/13/09 11:25 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
So? That doesn't make us better or special, only different. A dog can read volumes into smells that you can't even smell. Are they superior and special. By your criteria, yes they are.

Every animal might be somewhat special in its own way, and considering who is most special might be a little arbitrary. I am not disputing that other animals have their specialties, but so do humans.

I don't think any other animal can assimilate as much information as humans can. A full grown dog doesn't have a capacity to learn much more than a 2 year old human.

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deCypher

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Zanthius]
#10157660 - 04/13/09 11:26 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10157707 - 04/13/09 11:34 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It has been observed that grizzly bears will sit on mountain ledges at sunset and observe them until they die away. How do you presume to know whether other animals can appreciate whatever?

So what if some animals do not have the same adaptations that we have. How does that make them less? You are totally subjective here based most likely in your emotional need to feel special.

Grizzly bears are special, too, for many reasons, one being that they can be successfully domesticated and trained to perform 'tricks'. I only presume that the other animals are unable to create complex works of art and appreciate/understand them, not that they cannot appreciate nature.

I don't think that other animals are 'less' than us in general because we are all living beings, and in that sense, we're equal, but on the other hand, I will not ignore the many things that make us unique. What other animal tames other animals?

P.S- My emotional need to feel special has already been met, so this position isn't based on that, rather, it's merely based on speculation, observations, and inferences. :smirk:

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Zanthius]
#10157723 - 04/13/09 11:37 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
So? That doesn't make us better or special, only different. A dog can read volumes into smells that you can't even smell. Are they superior and special. By your criteria, yes they are.

Every animal might be somewhat special in its own way, and considering who is most special might be a little arbitrary. I am not disputing that other animals have their specialties, but so do humans.

I don't think any other animal can assimilate as much information as humans can. A full grown dog doesn't have a capacity to learn much more than a 2 year old human.

My dog knows more then most people do in many areas. You obviously know little about dogs.

And to sum up what you are stating. "I am not interested in debating the OP but instead going off on meaningless tangents"

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10157731 - 04/13/09 11:39 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Does your dog live with you, or do you live with your dog? :smirk:

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

Edited by Poid (04/13/09 11:49 AM)

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10157736 - 04/13/09 11:39 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think that other animals are 'less' than us in general because we are all living beings, and in that sense, we're equal, but on the other hand, I will not ignore the many things that make us unique. What other animal tames other animals?

I never stated any differently. So in effect you are saying you fully agree with the OP.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10157744 - 04/13/09 11:40 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Does your dog live with you, or do you live with your dog?

Please tell me what this has to do with anything? Oh please do.

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Zanthius
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10157754 - 04/13/09 11:43 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
My dog knows more then most people do in many areas. You obviously know little about dogs.

I love dogs, and I am not disputing that they are clever animals. Have you ever had a child, and if so, do you really think your dog is intellectually superior to what your child was when he/she was 2 years old?

Quote:

Icelander said:
And to sum up what you are stating. "I am not interested in debating the OP but instead going off on meaningless tangents"

As you have been arguing that humans have the same purpose as other animals, I wouldn't be surprised if you considered everything except food and sex to be completely meaningless.

Edited by Zanthius (04/13/09 11:52 AM)

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10157769 - 04/13/09 11:45 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Does your dog live with you, or do you live with your dog?

Please tell me what this has to do with anything? Oh please do.

Sorry, but there was supposed to be a ' :smirk:

' at the end of that, to show that it was not a fully serious comment. But basically, what I was getting at is the fact that humans are, as far as I know anyways, the only animal that domesticates other animals.

Quote:

Icelander said:
I don't think that other animals are 'less' than us in general because we are all living beings, and in that sense, we're equal, but on the other hand, I will not ignore the many things that make us unique. What other animal tames other animals?

I never stated any differently. So in effect you are saying you fully agree with the OP.

Not true, because I do think we're special, probably the most special one on this planet. Key word: probably.

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10157786 - 04/13/09 11:49 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

All living things are special but were the most special.

:rofl2:

Does "special" actually mean anything here.

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MushroomTrip
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10157787 - 04/13/09 11:49 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
P.S- My emotional need to feel special has already been met, so this position isn't based on that, rather, it's merely based on speculation, observations, and inferences.

I call bullshit on this. :smirk:

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Zanthius]
#10157797 - 04/13/09 11:51 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

As you have been arguing that humans have the same purpose as other animals, I wouldn't be surprised if you considered everything except food and sex to be completely meaningless.

No not meaningless, some of what we do is rather unique, however that does not make us less an animal that shares the common fate.

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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10157835 - 04/13/09 11:58 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10157848 - 04/13/09 12:00 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
All living things are special but were the most special.

Does "special" actually mean anything here.

The distinction between animals based on their specialness is indeed arbitrary, but I just think that there are so many more things, in a quantitative and qualitative sense, that make us more special, significant, unique, etc. than any other animal. There is a long list of unique qualities that humans have and that all other animals don't, and much of those things have to do with mental capacity.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Poid said:
P.S- My emotional need to feel special has already been met, so this position isn't based on that, rather, it's merely based on speculation, observations, and inferences.

I call bullshit on this.

Fine, just observations and inferences. :stoned:

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Zanthius
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10157858 - 04/13/09 12:02 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
No not meaningless, some of what we do is rather unique, however that does not make us less an animal that shares the common fate.

I think that the more individuals are dominated by the intellectual programs running in their brains, the less they are like animals.

I feel more like a computer program than like an animal.

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Zanthius]
#10157861 - 04/13/09 12:03 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Do you ever go outside, and/or interact with other creatures? I personally love the fact that I am an animal... :heartpump:

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Zanthius
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10157882 - 04/13/09 12:06 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Do you ever go outside, and/or interact with other creatures?

Of course, but the intellectual program running in my brain is also operational when I am outside interacting with other creatures.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Zanthius]
#10157893 - 04/13/09 12:08 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
No not meaningless, some of what we do is rather unique, however that does not make us less an animal that shares the common fate.

I think that the more individuals are dominated by the intellectual programs running in their brains, the less they are like animals.

I feel more like a computer program than like an animal.

Doesn't matter what you "feel" your biology is animal. Most animals have very few intellectual programs running. That would make them much less animal then us. :satansmoking:

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Zanthius
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10157900 - 04/13/09 12:10 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Doesn't matter what you "feel" your biology is animal.

Yes, but am I the "hardware" or the "software". My software is the intellectual program running my brain. My hardware is an animal body.

In the left side of my signature you can see a picture of my animal body interacting with a lion, and in the right side of my signature you can see a picture of the intellectual program running in my brain.

--------------------

Edited by Zanthius (04/13/09 12:45 PM)

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Zanthius]
#10157911 - 04/13/09 12:13 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Do you ever go outside, and/or interact with other creatures?

Of course, but the intellectual program running in my brain is also operational when I am outside interacting with other creatures.

I'd go on with this, but it would be pointless, not to mention off-topic.

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Doesn't matter what you "feel" your biology is animal.

Yes, but am I the "hardware" or the "software". My software is the intellectual program running my brain. My hardware is an animal body.

That's a really interesting way of looking at it. :mushroom2:

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Zanthius]
#10158014 - 04/13/09 12:34 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Doesn't matter what you "feel" your biology is animal.

Yes, but am I the "hardware" or the "software". My software is the intellectual program running my brain. My hardware is an animal body.

From what I've seen the intellectual program is not running your brain. It may be an aspect of your brain in operation but not the one running things. And that running seems to be a chemical process.

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Cubie
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10158090 - 04/13/09 12:49 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

--------------------

Sid and Mr. Madhat <part one> A story by Cubie P. Cubensis
<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

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Narwhal
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10158101 - 04/13/09 12:50 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

we have a soul, we have the ability to change. we are not animals we are humans.

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Narwhal]
#10158110 - 04/13/09 12:51 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

No, we are in fact animals.

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Narwhal]
#10158122 - 04/13/09 12:53 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Narwhal said:
we have a soul, we have the ability to change. we are not animals we are humans.

--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Narwhal]
#10158135 - 04/13/09 12:55 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Narwhal said:
we have a soul, we have the ability to change. we are not animals we are humans.

Thanks for your brilliant input. Now back it up.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10158157 - 04/13/09 12:59 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Human beings should be more than animals, but are they really?

Animals are thought of as not caring about anyone but himself or herself. It is survival of the fittest, if you are not strong enough, someone else will take your place. Human should be caring for other human beings, if someone is in trouble, another human should help them. This is not the way it is in these 3 works. Humans don’t care about anyone but themselves, they kill so they can better themselves, and don’t care what happens. It seems as people are getting murdered all the time to take power, and the killer, instead of being jailed, is now the leader.

“Palamedes…though he was innocent, the Greeks condemned him to death on lying evidence, false charges, simply because he had opposed the war. Killing someone for opposing the war is ridiculous. He is one of the few people in this poem that are not animal like. This shows that the almost all Greeks are no more than animals. The Greeks again had no real reason to go to war, except that they just wanted more territory. Palamedes was the one who decided to stand up for what was right, and he was killed for it.

Human beings are nothing more than animals. Going to war over nothing more than to gain territory when they sustained perfectly well in the first place, selling dead men for gold, plotting for an even harsher revenge is all barbaric. There was never a need for so much war, and the punishments people received for petty crimes such as burying a dead man, which should not be a crime in the first place

--------------------

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<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Narwhal]
#10158511 - 04/13/09 01:53 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Narwhal said:
we have a soul, we have the ability to change. we are not animals we are humans.

--------------------

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Narwhal
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10158588 - 04/13/09 02:04 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Narwhal said:
we have a soul, we have the ability to change. we are not animals we are humans.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Narwhal]
#10158603 - 04/13/09 02:06 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Objection overruled. :satansmoking:

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Narwhal
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10159612 - 04/13/09 04:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Objection overruled.

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PsyAlien
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Narwhal]
#10159989 - 04/13/09 05:31 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

OBJECTION!!! :onfire:

animals also has the ability to change, i think it called evolution!
and they have soul

the only different between human and animals, it's an expansion of consciousness.
for human it's unlimited, because they can use the tree of knowledge(psychedelic drugs)

of course there is a proof!
we wearing clothes and animals don't care if their fathers and mothers can see their ass hole!
and it doesn't matter how hard you will try to teach them to be a shame of their sexual organ, it's never gonna work!!!!!

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: PsyAlien]
#10160254 - 04/13/09 06:22 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

If animals have souls and possess consciousness, then why wouldn't they be able to expand their consciousness like we can?

Us wearing clothes doesn't make us better than animals in any way, and I can think of a few arguments that assert that it makes us worse... :sadyes:

--------------------
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10161636 - 04/13/09 10:45 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

[Scene: A scientist is in a Frankensteinesque laboratory mixing chemicals in a beaker.]

Scientist: I have combined the DNA of the world's most evil animals to make the most evil creature of them all.

[A pod reminiscent of the ones from the movie "The Fly" opens with a cloud of steam. It clears, revealing a naked human male.]

Naked Man: It turns out it's man.

--------------------
I've done no harm, I keep to myself. There's nothing wrong with my state of mental health.

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Liquid Time
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
#10161841 - 04/13/09 11:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Have to agree with the OP....It's simply a matter of understanding how evolution actually works. We're not special at all really, except for our evolved level of intelligence.

Plus for all we know there's a pretty high probability of there being other "intelligent" life in the universe, you know, given it's incomprehensible size.

--------------------

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10162994 - 04/14/09 07:49 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
If animals have souls and possess consciousness, then why wouldn't they be able to expand their consciousness like we can?

Us wearing clothes doesn't make us better than animals in any way, and I can think of a few arguments that assert that it makes us worse...

animals do "expand" their consciousness just as we do. It's called learning and any pet owner can testify to it.

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: PsyAlien]
#10163000 - 04/14/09 07:51 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PsyAlien said:
OBJECTION!!!

animals also has the ability to change, i think it called evolution!
and they have soul

the only different between human and animals, it's an expansion of consciousness.
for human it's unlimited, because they can use the tree of knowledge(psychedelic drugs)

of course there is a proof!
we wearing clothes and animals don't care if their fathers and mothers can see their ass hole!
and it doesn't matter how hard you will try to teach them to be a shame of their sexual organ, it's never gonna work!!!!!

This is the kind of post that makes the Shroomery famous and gives psychedelics a bad name. :thumbup:

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PsyAlien
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10163055 - 04/14/09 08:10 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

who tha fuck said that human are spacial????????????????????

Hitler was spacial Einstein was spacial dinosaurs were specials creatures.
spacial means not normal to a present time, different, weird.

so it is not right to say human are spacial, comparing them to animals, by meaning we are spacial because we cleaner, civilized, socialized and distinguish between good and evil.

we are a huge stinky, evil, filthy garbage! the only reason we maneged to survive for thousands of years it's because we are miserable pitiful sorry asses!
yes that what we are Pitiful Trash!!!!!!!
can't kill you and can't live with you.

this post for those who think people are special in a positive meaning.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: PsyAlien]
#10163061 - 04/14/09 08:12 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Do you have a soul?

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10163091 - 04/14/09 08:22 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

James Brown is dead.

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10163115 - 04/14/09 08:30 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Good.

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Cubie
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10163693 - 04/14/09 11:03 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

spacial

--------------------

Sid and Mr. Madhat <part one> A story by Cubie P. Cubensis
<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

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AHughman
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10163935 - 04/14/09 11:53 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

EVERY animal is unique and special. Are you asking if I think humans are better or more special than any other animal?

If you are, I would say no. Every animal is unique, and the fact that we can reason, or speak complex languages, or farm, or that we bury our dead doesn't make us any better than other animals, it just makes us different.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: AHughman]
#10163976 - 04/14/09 11:59 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

This IMO is a no brainer.

We eat we shit we fuck we fart but we' :monkeydance:

re not animals. We're the chosen ones.

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Cubie
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10163989 - 04/14/09 12:02 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

all most posts boil down to my belief that we are just animals. we got lucky is all

--------------------

Sid and Mr. Madhat <part one> A story by Cubie P. Cubensis
<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cubie]
#10164053 - 04/14/09 12:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Depends on what you call lucky.

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Cubie
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10164149 - 04/14/09 12:28 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

lucky...
well we didnt end up as some species that is cattle.
meaning some species does not raise us to eat us.

we are the top of the food chain. I think thats pretty lucky, With our place glued at the top of the food chain we have to freedom to expand our minds and not our survival instincts

--------------------

Sid and Mr. Madhat <part one> A story by Cubie P. Cubensis
<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

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PsyAlien
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cubie]
#10164397 - 04/14/09 01:13 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

if your luck is the food chain position then you are dead, because i, as a human can eat you alive, at your own home or in my.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cubie]
#10164418 - 04/14/09 01:16 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cubie said:
lucky...
well we didnt end up as some species that is cattle.
meaning some species does not raise us to eat us.

we are the top of the food chain. I think thats pretty lucky, With our place glued at the top of the food chain we have to freedom to expand our minds and not our survival instincts

All humans tend towards the neurotic along with lots of other psychological misery. It seems we may be the only ones. How Lucky.

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Cubie
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10164432 - 04/14/09 01:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

so you would rather be an unintelligent animal so you would not have to worry about depression?

--------------------

Sid and Mr. Madhat <part one> A story by Cubie P. Cubensis
<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cubie]
#10164452 - 04/14/09 01:20 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

First off animals are not unintelligent, (which shows your lack of intelligence).

Sure I'd take that chance, especially if I could pick the animal.

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Cubie
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10164487 - 04/14/09 01:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
First off animals are not unintelligent, (which shows your lack of intelligence).

Sure I'd take that chance, especially if I could pick the animal.

i ment it in a way as to show the huge difference in our intelligence levels, i know that animals are intelligent.. just nothing like we are

--------------------

Sid and Mr. Madhat <part one> A story by Cubie P. Cubensis
<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cubie]
#10164505 - 04/14/09 01:27 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

How is it intelligent to not be able to say what you mean?

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Cubie
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10164529 - 04/14/09 01:30 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

why are you such an asshole? i do think your really smart and i like being a part of your threads because of that but sheesh dude, RELAX

--------------------

Sid and Mr. Madhat <part one> A story by Cubie P. Cubensis
<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cubie]
#10164617 - 04/14/09 01:42 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I am pretty relaxed. :shrug:

However I don't like my animal friends slighted. No one gets to speak up for them here so you can talk about them any way you like. But then I get to talk about you any way I like. Guess you don't like it huh?

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Cubie
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10164642 - 04/14/09 01:47 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

it was just an ignorant miscommunication on my part.
im here to learn and become a better poster.. ill get there.
i like animals though :awesome:

i have a really smart cat :tongue2:

--------------------

Sid and Mr. Madhat <part one> A story by Cubie P. Cubensis
<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cubie]
#10164654 - 04/14/09 01:50 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Learning is a sign of intelligence. :thumbup:

Don't mind me, I'm old and crusty sometimes.

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PsyAlien
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10165929 - 04/14/09 04:59 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I am pretty relaxed. However I don't like my animal friends slighted. No one gets to speak up for them here so you can talk about them any way you like. But then I get to talk about you any way I like. Guess you don't like it huh?

do you eat animals???

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Jethro Tull
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: PsyAlien]
#10166294 - 04/14/09 05:42 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PsyAlien said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I am pretty relaxed. However I don't like my animal friends slighted. No one gets to speak up for them here so you can talk about them any way you like. But then I get to talk about you any way I like. Guess you don't like it huh?

do you eat animals???

I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special.

I read the news today. I saw a movie, marveled at a painting, and enjoyed some music. I drove a car. I was taught new things in my classes. I participated in this conversation contemplating our position in the evolutionary cycle.

Just human stuff, ya know?

I mean sure, I slept, ate, used the bathroom, and did other animal things too, but I slept on a mattress from a factory, ate food that was prepared for me, food that I didn't have to hunt/gather, and used a private bathroom because my mind tells me it's not alright to piss outside in public...

...More to the point, I think science and the application of research through technology is what makes us humans "special," or at the top of the food chain. We can study the world and apply our research to better the lives of all humans and animals. Our current use of technology causes suffering and hurts the environment. This is a reflection of our animal instincts, the need to survive, to profit, to get "more," to crave further existence.

Our world is a reflection of us, and we have the ability to expand consciousness and change our perception. With a massive change in perception, maybe we will "transcend" the animal realm, and begin to use technology to better the lives of all humans and animals.

--------------------
..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

DC at: Oneness

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Jethro Tull]
#10168036 - 04/14/09 09:29 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I think it's ridiculous to deny, on an internet message board, while sitting on your chair inside of a warm house, that humans aren't unique or special. :sadyes:

--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Cubie
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Jethro Tull]
#10168532 - 04/14/09 10:31 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Jethro Tull said:
Quote:

PsyAlien said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I am pretty relaxed. However I don't like my animal friends slighted. No one gets to speak up for them here so you can talk about them any way you like. But then I get to talk about you any way I like. Guess you don't like it huh?

do you eat animals???

I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special.

I read the news today. I saw a movie, marveled at a painting, and enjoyed some music. I drove a car. I was taught new things in my classes. I participated in this conversation contemplating our position in the evolutionary cycle.

Just human stuff, ya know?

I mean sure, I slept, ate, used the bathroom, and did other animal things too, but I slept on a mattress from a factory, ate food that was prepared for me, food that I didn't have to hunt/gather, and used a private bathroom because my mind tells me it's not alright to piss outside in public...

...More to the point, I think science and the application of research through technology is what makes us humans "special," or at the top of the food chain. We can study the world and apply our research to better the lives of all humans and animals. Our current use of technology causes suffering and hurts the environment. This is a reflection of our animal instincts, the need to survive, to profit, to get "more," to crave further existence.

Our world is a reflection of us, and we have the ability to expand consciousness and change our perception. With a massive change in perception, maybe we will "transcend" the animal realm, and begin to use technology to better the lives of all humans and animals.

best post yet

--------------------

Sid and Mr. Madhat <part one> A story by Cubie P. Cubensis
<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cubie]
#10169208 - 04/15/09 12:55 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special.

I read the news today. I saw a movie, marveled at a painting, and enjoyed some music. I drove a car. I was taught new things in my classes. I participated in this conversation contemplating our position in the evolutionary cycle.

Just human stuff, ya know?

I floated lazily among the clouds until I spotted a mouse hiding in the grass from a half-mile away. I swooped down on my dinner at 200 mph pulling up at the last second to strike with deadly accuracy and then fly off to my rocky lair to feast.

Just eagle stuff, ya know?

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PsyAlien
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Jethro Tull]
#10169760 - 04/15/09 06:30 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Jethro Tull said:
Quote:

PsyAlien said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I am pretty relaxed. However I don't like my animal friends slighted. No one gets to speak up for them here so you can talk about them any way you like. But then I get to talk about you any way I like. Guess you don't like it huh?

do you eat animals???

I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special.

I read the news today. I saw a movie, marveled at a painting, and enjoyed some music. I drove a car. I was taught new things in my classes. I participated in this conversation contemplating our position in the evolutionary cycle.

Just human stuff, ya know?

I mean sure, I slept, ate, used the bathroom, and did other animal things too, but I slept on a mattress from a factory, ate food that was prepared for me, food that I didn't have to hunt/gather, and used a private bathroom because my mind tells me it's not alright to piss outside in public...

...More to the point, I think science and the application of research through technology is what makes us humans "special," or at the top of the food chain. We can study the world and apply our research to better the lives of all humans and animals. Our current use of technology causes suffering and hurts the environment. This is a reflection of our animal instincts, the need to survive, to profit, to get "more," to crave further existence.

Our world is a reflection of us, and we have the ability to expand consciousness and change our perception. With a massive change in perception, maybe we will "transcend" the animal realm, and begin to use technology to better the lives of all humans and animals.

but how can you be special if there is nothing special in your post?
it's old primitive and already chewed and digested.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: PsyAlien]
#10169973 - 04/15/09 07:52 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Jethro Tull said:
Quote:

PsyAlien said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I am pretty relaxed. However I don't like my animal friends slighted. No one gets to speak up for them here so you can talk about them any way you like. But then I get to talk about you any way I like. Guess you don't like it huh?

do you eat animals???

I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special.

I read the news today. I saw a movie, marveled at a painting, and enjoyed some music. I drove a car. I was taught new things in my classes. I participated in this conversation contemplating our position in the evolutionary cycle.

Just human stuff, ya know?

I mean sure, I slept, ate, used the bathroom, and did other animal things too, but I slept on a mattress from a factory, ate food that was prepared for me, food that I didn't have to hunt/gather, and used a private bathroom because my mind tells me it's not alright to piss outside in public...

...More to the point, I think science and the application of research through technology is what makes us humans "special," or at the top of the food chain. We can study the world and apply our research to better the lives of all humans and animals. Our current use of technology causes suffering and hurts the environment. This is a reflection of our animal instincts, the need to survive, to profit, to get "more," to crave further existence.

Our world is a reflection of us, and we have the ability to expand consciousness and change our perception. With a massive change in perception, maybe we will "transcend" the animal realm, and begin to use technology to better the lives of all humans and animals.

Quote:

PsyAlien said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I am pretty relaxed. However I don't like my animal friends slighted. No one gets to speak up for them here so you can talk about them any way you like. But then I get to talk about you any way I like. Guess you don't like it huh?

do you eat animals???

Rarely, I have moved ever onward toward a vegan raw diet and when I do eat meat it is raw. It's not that I have objections to killing and being eaten and in fact I would have no objections to meeting that fate myself. However I do have strong objections to the torture farming methods that cause untold suffering to animals. I have no objections to the quick clean kill.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Jethro Tull]
#10170011 - 04/15/09 08:03 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

.More to the point, I think science and the application of research through technology is what makes us humans "special," or at the top of the food chain. We can study the world and apply our research to better the lives of all humans and animals. Our current use of technology causes suffering and hurts the environment. This is a reflection of our animal instincts, the need to survive, to profit, to get "more," to crave further existence.

I agree that our animal instincts have gone awry but it's not the instincts themselves that are the problem but the neurotic unskillful use of the modern brain. Others animals live in relative balance with their instinctual behaviors.

Our world is a reflection of us, and we have the ability to expand consciousness and change our perception. With a massive change in perception, maybe we will "transcend" the animal realm, and begin to use technology to better the lives of all humans and animals.

Unfortunately this is probably wishful thinking, more likely we cannot transcend our real animal nature because it is what we are and because we fear it will keep denying that side of our nature creating and continuing a dysfunctional imbalance in our violent side. (think Religious Priests who vilify sex and are then caught raping young boys.)

Humans do not have to get rid of animal behavior to be caring, loving, healthy minded individuals that can live in harmony with others for the most part and also with their environment.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Poid]
#10170015 - 04/15/09 08:04 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I think it's ridiculous to deny, on an internet message board, while sitting on your chair inside of a warm house, that humans aren't unique or special.

Think whatever lofty thoughts about yourself you need to but all this is just an adaptation and part of our animal nature.

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10170031 - 04/15/09 08:07 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Can we close this thread now or must we repeat the same theme for another 8 pages?

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10170058 - 04/15/09 08:13 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Humans learn and change slowly and repetition is important to creating new neural pathways. So... no.

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10170106 - 04/15/09 08:21 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Damn!

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deff
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10170196 - 04/15/09 08:37 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

so wait... are animals people too? :confused:

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deCypher

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10170812 - 04/15/09 10:42 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Humans learn and change slowly and repetition is important to creating new neural pathways. So... no.

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10170832 - 04/15/09 10:45 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I demand a moderator ruling! :hissyfit:

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deCypher

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10170853 - 04/15/09 10:48 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Hey, so long as people keep posting in this thread I'm fine with it; a little reinforcement of the neural pathways never hurt anything. :cool:

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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10170865 - 04/15/09 10:51 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, but I threw a tantrum and everything...

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10170873 - 04/15/09 10:52 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Actually there is more to be said. Being fully animal is a great thing. Having the brain we have could be used as a great tool for fun if we ever got around our death anxiety created by said brain.

Education is everything and that education is happening almost nowhere.

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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10171756 - 04/15/09 12:51 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Actually there is more to be said.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how humans have conceptual abstraction and others don't.

:grin:

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10171765 - 04/15/09 12:53 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I don't have the expertise to know exactly what others do or do not have or to what degree. :shrug:

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MushroomTrip
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10171862 - 04/15/09 01:09 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Actually there is more to be said.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how humans have conceptual abstraction and others don't.

I'm still waiting for you to reply my post. :shrug:

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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10171897 - 04/15/09 01:16 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I don't have the expertise to know exactly what others do or do not have or to what degree.

Awesome. How does that relate to my post?

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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10171901 - 04/15/09 01:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Actually there is more to be said.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how humans have conceptual abstraction and others don't.

I'm still waiting for you to reply my post.

Which post?

If it was over 24 hours ago it has expired.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10171915 - 04/15/09 01:20 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I don't have the expertise to know exactly what others do or do not have or to what degree.

Awesome. How does that relate to my post?

It means I can't answer the question and suspect noone can with certainty.

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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10171961 - 04/15/09 01:29 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Ahhh indeed. :thumbup:

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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10172274 - 04/15/09 02:31 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I believe we are animals, who are special in that we have a large portion of our brain dedicated to speaking and language. A species which is better at sophisticating a language, is better at transferring information. And the amount of information being transferred between ourselves is what makes us special.

I also noticed that humans seem to be the only organisms that can choose to not act human if they choose to.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10172303 - 04/15/09 02:36 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Humans can choose to not act human? :lol:

That's a neat trick. How do they do that?

By your definition of "special" all animal adaptations make all animals special. Which doesn't seem so special anymore.

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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10172362 - 04/15/09 02:47 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Humans can choose to not act human? That's a neat trick. How do they do that?

Humans have the ability to transcend acting on material existence if they wish to. For instance a person could sit down and write a novel about fictional characters that don't exist. But how is that important in an evolutionist point of view? Its not really, its just the ability to transcend acting like animal and into imagination. For instance a dog will always act like a dog, it cannot transcend its ability to act like anything else.

Quote:

By your definition of "special" all animal adaptations make all animals special.

Yeah, i do think that. If you have an adaptation that other organisms don't that give one an advantage over others, i would call that advantage or that ability from this adaptation special.

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Poid
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10172378 - 04/15/09 02:51 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Poid said:
I think it's ridiculous to deny, on an internet message board, while sitting on your chair inside of a warm house, that humans aren't unique or special.

Think whatever lofty thoughts about yourself you need to but all this is just an adaptation and part of our animal nature.

Of course this is, and it's a unique and special adaptation that no other animal has even come close to replicating.

--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10172394 - 04/15/09 02:54 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#10174409 - 04/15/09 08:36 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
I believe we are animals, who are special in that we have a large portion of our brain dedicated to speaking and language. A species which is better at sophisticating a language, is better at transferring information. And the amount of information being transferred between ourselves is what makes us special.

You may be more correct than you realize.

It is precisely propositional language and syntactically structured speech that sets man apart from every other animal. And what does it give us?

CASEWORK
GRANDSTANDS
GYM BLEACHERS
GYM EQUIPMENT
OPERABLE WALLS
PROJECTION SCREENS
STEEL LOCKERS &
METAL SHELVING
TOILET PARTITIONS
TV MOUNTS & LIFTS
VISUAL DISPLAY BOARDS
Bed Posts / Finials
Billiard Table Legs
Bun Feet
Cabinet Onlays
Corbels
Furniture Hardware
Kitchen Island Legs
Kits - Chair
Kits - Table
Pedestal Legs
Sofa / Chair / Cabinet Legs
Table / Chair Legs
Table Pedestals
Turning Squares
Bags & Packaging
Barrels & Drums
Bin Racks & Bins
Bottles
Carts & Trucks
DVD Cases
Labware
Nalgene® Labware
Outdoor Products
Pipe, Duct & Blowers
Plastic Buckets
Plastic Fittings
Pumps
Rubbermaid®
Safety & Tools
Sheet, Rod & Shapes
Tanks & Accessories
Totes & Containers
Trash Containers
Tubing & Fittings
Tygon® Tubing
Valves
Planes
Trains
Automobiles
Rocketships
Bombs
Guns
Ketchup
Mustard
Microscopes
Telescopes
Ham and Cheese sandwiches
Condoms
Knives
The judicial system
History books
Philosophy
Science
Astronomy
Religion
Kites
Antiques
Computers
Hearing Aids
Lasers
Masers
Tasers
X-ray machines
Thin layer chromatography
Bullets
Artificial insemination
Doc Johnson's Marital Aids
Video games
Television
Radio
Smoke alarms
Cameras
Pogo sticks
Ice cube trays
Mirrors
Glass windows
Pyramids
Paintings
Symphonies
Ceiling tiles
Basement floors
Lexmark printers
rubber gloves
filtered cigarettes
ashtrays
Rom
Ram
edible undies
inhalers
Boxing Gloves
Brass Knuckles
Tooth Brushes
Pasteurized milk
Arby's
McDonald's
Amusement parks
Digital photography
Vocoders
Rock and roll
Software
Hardware
Camaros
Super Glue
Goo gone
plastic wrap
Wax paper
Coors beer
Spaghetti
Knishes
Dishwashers
Weed Wackers
Lawn Mowers
Bubble baths
Indoor plumbing
The Internet
Message boards
Cheese Danishes
Ouija boards
Horoscopes
Trampolines
Religion
Calculus
Radiation therapy
Bowling Alleys
Tickets
Shoes
Poems

And, of course, the ability to have this discussion.

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BlimeyGrimey
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10174642 - 04/15/09 09:07 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

We are "probably" the only Earth species that has the ability (or will have) to leave this planet if wanted.

That makes us "unique" animals but animals nonetheless.

MM,

You forgot particle accelerators, some of the most advanced devices/machines ever built.

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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
#10174675 - 04/15/09 09:13 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Damn it! You're right, I did.

I would have placed it between peanut butter and full body casts. :thumbup:

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BlimeyGrimey
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10174969 - 04/15/09 09:55 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

You also put religion in the list twice. :smirk:

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meatcakeman
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10176134 - 04/16/09 03:18 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BlimeyGrimey said:
You also put religion in the list twice.

That's only human.

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
I believe we are animals, who are special in that we have a large portion of our brain dedicated to speaking and language. A species which is better at sophisticating a language, is better at transferring information. And the amount of information being transferred between ourselves is what makes us special.

You may be more correct than you realize.

It is precisely propositional language and syntactically structured speech that sets man apart from every other animal. And what does it give us?

CASEWORK
GRANDSTANDS
GYM BLEACHERS
GYM EQUIPMENT
OPERABLE WALLS
PROJECTION SCREENS
STEEL LOCKERS &
METAL SHELVING
TOILET PARTITIONS
TV MOUNTS & LIFTS
VISUAL DISPLAY BOARDS
Bed Posts / Finials
Billiard Table Legs
Bun Feet
Cabinet Onlays
Corbels
Furniture Hardware
Kitchen Island Legs
Kits - Chair
Kits - Table
Pedestal Legs
Sofa / Chair / Cabinet Legs
Table / Chair Legs
Table Pedestals
Turning Squares
Bags & Packaging
Barrels & Drums
Bin Racks & Bins
Bottles
Carts & Trucks
DVD Cases
Labware
Nalgene� Labware
Outdoor Products
Pipe, Duct & Blowers
Plastic Buckets
Plastic Fittings
Pumps
Rubbermaid�
Safety & Tools
Sheet, Rod & Shapes
Tanks & Accessories
Totes & Containers
Trash Containers
Tubing & Fittings
Tygon� Tubing
Valves
Planes
Trains
Automobiles
Rocketships
Bombs
Guns
Ketchup
Mustard
Microscopes
Telescopes
Ham and Cheese sandwiches
Condoms
Knives
The judicial system
History books
Philosophy
Science
Astronomy
Religion
Kites
Antiques
Computers
Hearing Aids
Lasers
Masers
Tasers
X-ray machines
Thin layer chromatography
Bullets
Artificial insemination
Doc Johnson's Marital Aids
Video games
Television
Radio
Smoke alarms
Cameras
Pogo sticks
Ice cube trays
Mirrors
Glass windows
Pyramids
Paintings
Symphonies
Ceiling tiles
Basement floors
Lexmark printers
rubber gloves
filtered cigarettes
ashtrays
Rom
Ram
edible undies
inhalers
Boxing Gloves
Brass Knuckles
Tooth Brushes
Pasteurized milk
Arby's
McDonald's
Amusement parks
Digital photography
Vocoders
Rock and roll
Software
Hardware
Camaros
Super Glue
Goo gone
plastic wrap
Wax paper
Coors beer
Spaghetti
Knishes
Dishwashers
Weed Wackers
Lawn Mowers
Bubble baths
Indoor plumbing
The Internet
Message boards
Cheese Danishes
Ouija boards
Horoscopes
Trampolines
Religion
Calculus
Radiation therapy
Bowling Alleys
Tickets
Shoes
Poems

And, of course, the ability to have this discussion.

I don't see how any of said "human accomplishments" make us any more special than the rest of the global fauna...

If anything, they make us more privileged, not special. I see the word 'special' as having a connotation of singularity and uniqueness; we are neither. We try to convince ourselves otherwise, but we inevitably fall victim to the same vital guidelines of survival that all animals on Earth must heed to. Our capabilities are innumerable, materialistically speaking. But biologically, we are subject to Death, hunger, thirst, and all other mundane agents of earthly life.

From an egotistical and humanistic standpoint, we are superb. But in the unbiased and holistic view of Earth and its inhabitants, we are as appropriate as the prokaryotes living symbiotically within us.

--------------------
大开眼界

:awegroove:

~~Hasta siempre, comandante.~~
:mattz:

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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
#10181639 - 04/16/09 10:11 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BlimeyGrimey said:
You also put religion in the list twice.

At least someone is paying attention. :grin:

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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: meatcakeman]
#10181653 - 04/16/09 10:13 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

meatcakeman said:
I don't see how any of said "human accomplishments" make us any more special than the rest of the global fauna...

Undoubtedly that is the problem.

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Icelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10183640 - 04/17/09 08:50 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

It's only a problem if you think things are really different then they are.

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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10184425 - 04/17/09 11:36 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Reality isn't what we want it to be; neither is it what we think it is. Reality is what it is, nothing more nor less.

--Robert Ringer

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deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10185125 - 04/17/09 01:33 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Reality isn't what we want it to be; neither is it what we think it is. Reality is what it is, nothing more nor less.

--Robert Ringer

Reality is a crutch for people who can't handle drugs.
--Jane Wagner

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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10185483 - 04/17/09 02:32 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Was Jane her middle name?

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deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10185492 - 04/17/09 02:34 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Don't believe so, but I'm not 100% sure on the author of the quote. Either it's Jane Wagner, her friend Lily Tomlin, or Robin Williams. :shrug:

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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Psilonescens
NW Warshingtonian

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 69
Loc: Puget Sound PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month

Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#11377449 - 11/03/09 01:28 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

There's a fine list of difference between ours and any given primates thought processes. One could say they think purely out of instinct; but you also must first realize that we have those same instincts within our conscious. The thoughts " get food." " mate." and " fight." All cross both species minds at some point. However inhibitions and self control develop more acutely within the human mind thanks to genes passed down from our ancestors that tell us why to or not to.. Try to eat that 15 foot snake on that tree branch. Another benefit? You have 2 hemispheres that fully interact with eachother whentou reach the age of about 25. In primates, the 2 halves are connected at birth, which prevents growth from cells already present at birth. Yet we've only been here for around 5000 years. And we've already destroyed thousands of more times land than any primate ever could dream of.

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It felt amazing, being knocked off my pedestal by a fungus.

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