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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,525
Loc: underbelly
Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: The Chronic]
    #10117332 - 04/06/09 01:52 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
If they were enlightened they wouldn't have been reborn :wink:

:peace:





What book did you find that in?


--------------------
     

“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker


"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno." 


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Offlinec0sm0nauttM
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
    #10117403 - 04/06/09 02:03 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I believe humans are special because of our creative abilities which is not mimicked throughout the animal kingdom. Homo sapien sapien (creative thinker)

Have you ever had a "spiritual" experience Icelander?


--------------------
astralsun.blogspot.com
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #10117415 - 04/06/09 02:05 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Have you ever had a "spiritual" experience Icelander?


I'm having one right now. :holyshit:

What abilities do we have that are not in some form part of the primate experience in general?


--------------------
     

“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker


"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno." 


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
    #10117445 - 04/06/09 02:10 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

You do realize how naive the materialist point of view is for the workings of the universe.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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Offlinec0sm0nauttM
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
    #10117458 - 04/06/09 02:11 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Of course similarities are to be found in our genetic cousins. But I would separate creative thinking as a predominant, if not exclusive, human trait.

Do you see animals creating art, composing music, or writing novels? Or in your case, utilizing sarcasm? :heart:


--------------------
astralsun.blogspot.com
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein



Edited by c0sm0nautt (04/06/09 02:12 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #10117475 - 04/06/09 02:15 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

So what? Or, relate your claims to the topic at hand.


--------------------
     

“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker


"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno." 


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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 67,525
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #10117480 - 04/06/09 02:15 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
You do realize how naive the materialist point of view is for the workings of the universe.





Elaborate.


--------------------
     

“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker


"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno." 


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Offlinec0sm0nauttM
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
    #10117502 - 04/06/09 02:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

"What abilities do we have that are not in some form part of the primate experience in general?"

Creating art, composing music, or writing novels, using sarcasm.

How is this not the topic at hand? Seems to me you'd rather not acknowledge this.


--------------------
astralsun.blogspot.com
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein



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Invisibledaytripper23
?
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
    #10117515 - 04/06/09 02:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

In the vocabulary of Carl Jung anima is the true self, and persona is the mask. I know that I am usually more touched by the drama of an animal's life than any human concern usually. Maybe its more specifically animals relating to humans as pets, wherein the situation is somehow objectified; but still, I seem to care more about the pets welfare than the human's...

This is probably fucked


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #10117544 - 04/06/09 02:26 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
"What abilities do we have that are not in some form part of the primate experience in general?"

Creating art, composing music, or writing novels, using sarcasm.

How is this not the topic at hand? Seems to me you'd rather not acknowledge this.





Oh really? :lol:  The topic is my claim that we are just another animal in the web of life and not "special". I already gave the example that all animals have different abilities and adaptations.

I also stated that we don't really know if a wolf or a coyote is not "singing" or if a monkey smearing it's shit on the zoo wall is not trying to create "art".

So who the fuck cares if we do this or that. Prove to me we are "special" and not doomed to the fate of all living things.


--------------------
     

“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker


"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno." 


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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 67,525
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: daytripper23]
    #10117555 - 04/06/09 02:28 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
In the vocabulary of Carl Jung anima is the true self, and persona is the mask. I know that I am usually more touched by the drama of an animal's life than any human concern usually. Maybe its more specifically animals relating to humans as pets, wherein the situation is somehow objectified; but still, I seem to care more about the pets welfare than the human's...

This is probably fucked





Really get to know a dog. Relate to them on their level as an animal. Then you will see sensitivity that you can hardly imagine. I will take a dog to most people anyday.:shrug:


--------------------
     

“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker


"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno." 


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
    #10117691 - 04/06/09 02:56 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

You do mean 'better', not 'special'...

Then, 'better' needs a reference point, like, 'better' in destroying the earth or something :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
.............................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinec0sm0nauttM
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
    #10117704 - 04/06/09 02:58 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

So you choose to draw on the subjective experiences of animals? :rolleyes: I think we can clearly see humans have creative abilities not seen in animals. If you believe a monkey smearing his shit on the glass at the zoo exhibit is art... then that's a whole other argument.


--------------------
astralsun.blogspot.com
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
    #10117713 - 04/06/09 03:00 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

*throws feces at Icelander*


--------------------


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Silversoul]
    #10117724 - 04/06/09 03:02 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

We can change our minds


--------------------
Oh, yeah, what are you gonna do? Release the
dogs? Or the bees? Or the dogs with bees in their
mouth and when they bark, they shoot bees at you? -
Homer Simpson


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,525
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #10117758 - 04/06/09 03:09 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
So you choose to draw on the subjective experiences of animals? :rolleyes: I think we can clearly see humans have creative abilities not seen in animals. If you believe a monkey smearing his shit on the glass at the zoo exhibit is art... then that's a whole other argument.





Once again. What does this have to do with my original contention?

I think some humans in the art world have paid some big money for some paintings done by gorilla's and elephants. Now what do you make of that?


--------------------
     

“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker


"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno." 


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,525
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Silversoul]
    #10117772 - 04/06/09 03:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
*throws feces at Icelander*





throws 9mm bullets back


--------------------
     

“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker


"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno." 


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Offlinec0sm0nauttM
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
    #10117838 - 04/06/09 03:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Elephants, to my surprise, are capable of some interesting art. Check out this gallery: http://www.elephantartgallery.com/paintings/

Yet we could argue if this is inspired by creativity or simple random brushstrokes. It quite definitive that human art (for the most part) is mirrored by the creative visualization innate to humans.

Find me a poem written by a Gorilla and I'll stand corrected.


--------------------
astralsun.blogspot.com
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein



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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 67,525
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #10117877 - 04/06/09 03:30 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

once again, how does this address my original contention??????????????????????


--------------------
     

“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker


"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno." 


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
    #10118115 - 04/06/09 04:15 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
You do realize how naive the materialist point of view is for the workings of the universe.





Elaborate.



This pretty much sums up where materialism has brought us.
Quote:

The basic message of materialism is that the world is what it appears to be: a thing composed of
matter, and pretty much confined to its surface. The world is what it appears to be.
Now, this, on the face of it, is a tremendously naïve position, because what it says is the animal body
that you inhabit, the eyes you look through, the fingers you feel through, are somehow the ultimate
instruments of metaphysical conjecture… which is highly improbable. It seems to me, metaphysical
conjecture begins with the logic of the situation, and then proceeds in whatever direction that logic
will carry you. Well, if logic is true to experience, then we have to make room in any theory for
invisible connectedness between people; anticipation of a future that has not yet occurred; shared
dreaming; all kinds of possibilities that materialism has denied. For approximately 500 years, the great
era of the triumph of modern science, materialism has had the field all to itself; and its argument for
its pre-eminence was the beautiful toys that it could create: aircraft, railroads, global economies,
television, spacecraft. But that is a fool’s argument for truth! I mean, that’s after all how a medicine
show operates, you know: the juggler is so good, the medicine must be even better! This is not an
entirely rational way to proceed. And now, at the end of 500 years of the practice of “rational”
scientific culture, we are literally at the end of our rope! Reason, and science, and the practice of
unbridled capitalism, have not delivered us into an angelic realm. Quite the contrary: they’ve
delivered 3% of us into an angelic realm, completely overshadowed by guilt about what’s happening
to the other 97% of us who are eating it!
It’s not a pretty picture, modern civilisation. Most people in the world today are quite miserable,
actually. They have very little hope; their religions, their traditional value systems, are being eroded
by Dallas and Hawaii 5-0, which are on the village television every night; lifespans are being
shortened by pesticides, chemicals, all kinds of things in the environment; and there is very little
political light on the horizon. So I believe that it’s reasonable, looking at this situation, to say that
history failed; and that the grand dream of Western civilisation has in fact failed. And now we are attempting – with basically a carved wooden oar – to turn a battleship around. And it’s a very
frustrating undertaking. The momentum for catastrophe is enormous in this situation. But it’s not
100% certain that catastrophe is what we’re headed for, because we are not 100% unconscious. There
are people struggling to figure out how to control population, struggling to figure out how to balance
the relationship between the masculine and the feminine, struggling to bring amelioration of hunger
and disease to various parts of the world. So we’re in essentially a tragic situation. A tragic situation is
a catastrophe when you know it, you see. And part of the Western impulse has been to subjugate all
other cultural styles to our own. And this has taken the form of actually swallowing and digesting
Native American culture; the ethnicity of European culture has been replaced by the megaculture of
Nouveau Europa, whatever that means; cultures are melted down in the belly of the Western scientific
beast and then they become structural members in an ever-expanding edifice of Western scientism.




--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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