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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,525
Loc: underbelly
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 I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special.
#10115496 - 04/06/09 08:28 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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My evidence for this comes from the studies of Primate behavior. Bonobo's Chimps, Gorillas, humans.
From our basic drives and how we express them and our social structures and basic emotional and mental make up.
This is the book if you care to find out more and in depth. I have found no book more revealing and I give it my highest recommendation. Our Inner Ape by Frans De Waal Check it out if you dare.
"Two-against-one maneuvering is what lends chimpanzee power struggles both their richness and their danger. Coalitions are key. No male can rule by himself, at least not for long, because the group as a whole can overthrow anybody. Chimpanzees are so cleaver about banding together that a leader needs allies to fortify his position as well as the greater community's acceptance. Staying on top is a balancing act between forcefully asserting dominance, keeping supporters happy, and avoiding mass revolt. If this sounds familiar, it's because human politics works exactly the same"
That just a taste of the tip of the ice burg as far as evidence goes. This guy has studied primates for well over twenty years in the field and in captivity. It's one of the most interesting and revealing books I have ever read. You might find just about everything we do as individuals and as a group reflected in these other primate relatives. The contrast between bonobo and chimp behavior is especially revealing as far as violence goes and male vs female hierarchy.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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 Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
 
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 7,357
Last seen: 1 hour, 9 minutes
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115518 - 04/06/09 08:32 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I too have studied primates for more than twenty years, mostly in captivity.  I largely agree with the findings Frans De Waal has expressed.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115541 - 04/06/09 08:36 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sure, we're animals. But we're also clearly different from most others; we possess the ability to communicate incredibly advanced concepts through language and we appear to have the ability to recognize our own consciousness and impending mortality. Surely this at least makes us a little special?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,358
Loc: Luxor
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115548 - 04/06/09 08:38 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Where does Charlton Heston fit into the scheme of things?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,358
Loc: Luxor
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Lion]
#10115553 - 04/06/09 08:40 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said:
I too have studied primates for more than twenty years, mostly in captivity. I largely agree with the findings Frans De Waal has expressed.
What were you doing in captivity? 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,525
Loc: underbelly
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10115557 - 04/06/09 08:40 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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It makes us different not special. Every animal has specific adaptions that help it survive. The language ability is our biggest difference with other primates but not as big as you might think. The book discusses how well other primates communicate using vocal sounds, body language and eye to eye communications.
There is one exception. You are special deCypher. cause you're a mod.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,525
Loc: underbelly
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10115562 - 04/06/09 08:41 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Lion said:
I too have studied primates for more than twenty years, mostly in captivity. I largely agree with the findings Frans De Waal has expressed.
What were you doing in captivity?
Same thing you are.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,525
Loc: underbelly
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10115565 - 04/06/09 08:42 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Where does Charlton Heston fit into the scheme of things?
Good question. I would say much more chimp than bonobo.
Chimp like behavior and survival strategies are the norm IMO. Bonobo strategies would make up the vast minority.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,358
Loc: Luxor
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115577 - 04/06/09 08:45 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I was speaking of the future when apes inherit the earth.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115580 - 04/06/09 08:45 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Gee I didn't realize I was unique!
Have you ever read John Lilly's Programming and Metaprogramming the Human Biocomputer? He brings up an interesting point that with our sufficiently advanced neural structure we're capable of altering our own programming; either through meditation or psychedelics (in particular LSD-25 and Ketamine). In this fashion we can alter our own consciousness in a self-reflexive feedback loop; a biochemical machine manipulating its own proteins--an interesting parallel can be made with the idea of the Technological Singularity that stipulates once a computer is capable of modifying its own source code to becoming increasingly intelligent the process will exponentially bootstrap itself up to create God in machine form. Perhaps we're capable of doing the same thing and the process will culminate in a global evolution of consciousness?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,525
Loc: underbelly
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10115595 - 04/06/09 08:48 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I did read that and it could be true over time. Time that we don't have a lot of IMO.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115615 - 04/06/09 08:51 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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You think we'll kill ourselves off before then?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,358
Loc: Luxor
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10115654 - 04/06/09 08:57 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Some of us will be doin' the killin' and some us will be doin' the dyin'. You get one guess which group the 'we are all oners' will fall under.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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BlimeyGrimey
Collector of Spores
Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 3,738
Loc: Puget Sound
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10115678 - 04/06/09 09:01 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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The Naked Ape and The Human Zoo by Desmond Morris are also good books comparing humans to chimps.
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I've done no harm, I keep to myself. There's nothing wrong with my state of mental health.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,525
Loc: underbelly
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10115705 - 04/06/09 09:04 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
You think we'll kill ourselves off before then?
Well this is another topic but I believe all species go extinct sooner or later. I'm guessing with us it will be sooner. Maybe because we use language it will ultimately be our weak link for survival longevity.;) Now wouldn't that be irony?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#10115728 - 04/06/09 09:08 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Some of us will be doin' the killin' and some us will be doin' the dyin'. You get one guess which group the 'we are all oners' will fall under.
Unfortunately if this happened at the Shroomery we skeptics would get slaughtered by the horde of raving believers.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,358
Loc: Luxor
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115736 - 04/06/09 09:09 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,525
Loc: underbelly
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10115741 - 04/06/09 09:10 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Doubtful, the believers forgot to buy a gun. Us rational folk are ready for anything. 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: Icelander]
#10115753 - 04/06/09 09:11 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Doubtful, the believers forgot to buy a gun.
You mean psychedelics and meditation don't give mind powers? And to think I was expecting some blistering psychic warfare from the M&Pers.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,525
Loc: underbelly
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Re: I believe we are nothing more than animals and not special. [Re: deCypher]
#10115767 - 04/06/09 09:14 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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blistering psychic warfare
Practical demo of belief. I'll take a machine gun and you get 1000 psychic supermen and we can place bets. I'm willing to put up a few hundred grand.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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