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Offlineblujay
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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: Everlong]
    #16167398 - 05/01/12 06:57 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Everlong said:
But there is no penalty for making decisions. The game makes them for you.

Pretty lame. It didn't even feel like diablo.

Oh, that commercial, that's supposed to be the lord of terror? That's Diablo? :rofl: He looks like a chump compared to previous game versions.

I only care about the storyline at this point and I don't expect much from that. Maybe they downplayed the storyline in the beta IDK but it seems like rushed dialogue.

EDIT: So this thread inspired me to go read about any possible spoiler leakage and I'm shutting my mouth for the time being until I play the game. Maybe the story won't disappoint me. :awesome:





Many of us have grown, have lives, and don't have time to play the game 80+ hours 15+ times because the character stat allocation makes it a trial-and-effort exercise in futility where the next guy finds a better min-max and then you're permanently gimped.
Why does customization have to = punishment? Why are permanence and customization mutually inclusive? Is my car no longer custom if I pain it a different color and pick new rims? Was it only custom the first time? What the bloody hell are your standards for these statements?

If you really think the game makes the decisions for you, who is picking the gear? Who is making trades? Who is crafting items, and investing gold into different sinks? Who is picking the 6 skills out of a pool of ~150?

Have you even looked at the skill calculator? It's very, very obvious this game offers 10 time more choices in character customization. Not only are there many, many more unique styles for item sets. You also ignore the fact that gem-crafting effectively replaces stat allocation.

Did you ever even play the endgame Diablo 2 meta? There were about four effective characters. Anything else died in a couple hits, and anything not using two of three effective top-tree skills for each character was worthless. This made Hell a bore, where once you had the uber-character every enemy melted, and ruined character creating in general because if you were smart you would just choose the one right answer. D3 says "here's what you have in your toybox; you'll never be stronger than the enemies; so figure out a way to combine your toys effectively. Bonus points for sticking with one set of them!".

Edited by blujay (05/01/12 07:01 PM)

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InvisibleEverlong
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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: blujay]
    #16167449 - 05/01/12 07:11 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think I was ever even able to get a character past lvl 50 in DII because that shit was so repetitive. :lol:

I never invested any serious time or thought into any diablo game myself. I played multiplayer to play with other people, not to PvP. You think i was one of those perfectionists who had to have perfect stats and armor? I would do a play through each class and that's about it. :shrug:

I'm realizing I wasn't the biggest Diablo fan in the world... Just loved the storyline and Gothic feel of the game.

I just hope the story doesn't suck.


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Offlineblujay
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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: Everlong]
    #16167507 - 05/01/12 07:23 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

bashiok...come on...I know you're trying to defend your game, but I think a lot of people would be satisfied if you just admitted that you are dumbing things down for the masses. It's a completely reasonable thing to do; you guys are doing it in WoW, it's obviously the direction you guys have decided to go with things, but nobody at Blizzard will just admit it. just come out and say that at some time WoW was not casual-friendly and that everything was becoming too complex both for Blizzard and for players, and that you guys have decided to simplify things for everyone. I think a lot of people don't like that there is no real, difficult decision making, because you can't really ever make a mistake. You can make all your soft-core characters the very first day and never have to make another toon again even if you play the game for 20 years. That's good for some people, but obviously a lot of seasoned gamers wont like that.

Yeah, I guess that's the mentality I just can't understand. WoW players should be especially aware that skill tress provided them no choice. You had your build, and then you'd have a few 'left over points' that you could spend anywhere, and you could spend them anywhere because they didn't matter. What mattered was the way you spent down the tree, and there was really one one or two right ways to do that per spec. I can't understand how anyone could logically look at that situation and say "I have a lot of choices!" unless the answer is they have no idea how to play the game and actually are making a bunch of choices, which are the wrong ones, and building horrible characters.

Diablo II was the exact same way. If you're not spending into synergies and boosting up a skill or two to max, you're probably doing it wrong.

How, in the wide wide world of sports, is having potentially hundreds of viable skills and the ability to only choose 6 of them, which means billions of possible build combinations, worse than a skill tree where you have one or two correct decisions?

There's only one logical answer to this, and that is people want to be locked into their decisions for better or worse because they feel that gives value to their choices. They are smart for picking the right answer and building a better or more interesting character. That is absolutely a noble concept, but we fundamentally just don't agree that people need to be locked into something for their choices to be smart or meaningful. How does a 15g respec make your choices instantly more palatable? You're suddenly a character building genius because the guy next to you has to pay 15g to copy you? Come on.

With billions of possible builds you will absolutely be doing something different than the guy next to you, and you making the skills you want to use work for you and be viable is a great achievement, because out of billions of possible builds how many do you think will actually work?

It's interesting to me that someone would value the permanence of their choices over being able to actually make choices at all.


Although I agree with you, I am curious about something: How has build diversity "performed" in internal testing? Do people tend to gravitate towards certain skills/builds, or is there actually a large amount of diversity in play?

There's a large amount of diversity, and some of that is afforded by overlap in skills. With ~150 skills per class they of course aren't all going to unique in their function, which allows for overlap and customization in build choice. In addition, we find that gear as well as just play experience will influence someone's build as they go. Someone might pick up an item with a +skill mod, and decide to swap around their build to benefit from the item. If they enjoy it they'll start building out a set that really feeds that new build. In addition to the Nephalem Valor buff which penalizes changing builds mid-game, there's a large amount of item and skill investment in perfecting a build that lends itself to sticking with it. I know people have a concept that players are just going to be swapping around their builds all the time, and that's certainly true as things are unlocking, but at high levels there's enough investment in a build that it just doesn't really happen.

I've said this elsewhere recently, but the designers knew they were on the right track for diversity and balance when people would come up to them and say "This skill is absolutely overpowered and required to play this class" and right behind them would be another person saying the exact same thing about another skill. There are absolutely skills that are very tempting, but different skills appeal to different people, and our intent (and what we believe we've achieved) is the ability for someone to choose a build that appeals to them and to make it work. A lot of personal taste, play style, experience, and even just aesthetics play more into build choices than people usually expect. And that's insanely exciting from both a design and player perspective.

You put out a system that moves you along and does not give you a SINGLE choice in the matter

Hrm. Oh, you mean until level 13? Well we specifically unlock very few abilities to start, but pretty quickly we have to be dumping handfuls on you every level. With as many skills and passives as there are it very quickly ramps up where every level you're getting four or five new things to try out, in addition to everything before it. There's no shortage of choice. I agree the choices are unlocked in a pre-determined way, but so are skill trees.



On the number of possible combinations technically available:
************

Your number are off because you can't have a skill twice and therefore can't treat skill runes like regular skills.
Example Barbarian: (22 skills and 16 passives)
Passive skills

16 passives (take 3) = 560 combinations

Active Skills

First of all you have to calculate the skill runes seperately, because you can't have a skill more than once.
It's 56 = 15625

Now you do the same as you did with the passive skills but with 22 skills and 6 to choose from.
22 choose 6 = 74613

In Guided Mode/Non-Elective Mode your active skill combinations is calculated like this:
Number of Primary Skills x N.o. Secondary S. x N.o. Defensive S. x N.o. Might S. x N.o. Tactic S. x N.o. Rage S.
3 x 4 x 4 x 4 x 4 x 3 = 2304
Total skill combinations

active skill combinations * skill runes * passive skill combinations
74613 * 56 * 560 = 6.5286375 * 1011 or

652,863,750,000

Elective Mode:
Barbarian:    652,863,750,000 (22 skills and 16 passives)
Demon Hunter: 717,670,078,100 (23 skills and 15 passives)
Monk:        308,626,500,000 (21 skills and 14 passives)
Witch Doctor: 520,451,796,900 (22 skills and 15 passives)
Wizard:    1,259,070,313,000 (25 skills and 15 passives)

Guided Mode/Non-Elective Mode:
Barbarian:    20,160,000,000
Demon Hunter: 21,840,000,000
Monk:          9,828,000,000
Witch Doctor: 16,380,000,000
Wizard:      34,125,000,000

********

You're wrong. The company is worth over 15 billion dollars, I the team of over 200+ people who have been intimately working on the project for more than half a decade know what they're talking about when they say the game is designed to allow character customization out the wazoo. It's like, you're just this one guy, okay, and Blizzard is a multinational corporation with the largest and most involved PR and marketing departments in the world; they want this to be both fun and re-playable, so they're going to be playign character customization hard, and they've explicitly states this dozens of times. The longer we play it, the more auction house fees they can skim, and the more publicity they get. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what makes a game great, the genius comes in implementing that.


Diablo was never about the story. Flashy, addictive co-op gameplay is what kept it going strong for 12 years.

Edited by blujay (05/01/12 07:35 PM)

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InvisibleEverlong
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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: blujay]
    #16167614 - 05/01/12 07:44 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

blujay said:

Diablo was never about the story. Flashy, addictive co-op gameplay is what kept it going strong for 12 years.




That image has raised my hopes even more.


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OfflineDeekay
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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: Everlong]
    #16168564 - 05/01/12 10:28 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Having read a bunch of the Diablo books, the story is pretty fugging :awesome:


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InvisibleEverlong
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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: Deekay]
    #16168634 - 05/01/12 10:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I used to own one.. it had something to do with some coast line and ships and stuff... I forget.. :lol:


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Offlinegref
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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: Everlong]
    #16171419 - 05/02/12 01:58 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Everlong said:
Oh, that commercial, that's supposed to be the lord of terror? That's Diablo? :rofl: He looks like a chump compared to previous game versions.





They showed a glimpse of Diablo but the guy I think you're talking about is Azmodan. He's one of the lesser evils, and yes he is a chump.
That's him (apparently nipple rings are for demons.)


And these are pictures of Diablo himself!

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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: Everlong]
    #16171445 - 05/02/12 02:04 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I just hope they don't turn the d3 storyline into a cartoon for 10 year olds like sc2....lol

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InvisibleEverlong
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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: gref]
    #16171467 - 05/02/12 02:08 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

No, I was actually talking about Diablo.

And yes, he does look like a chump compared to previous versions (He isn't as bulky).

and I'd suggest not looking into like I did unless you want to be spoiler'd.

:itwasgoodforme:


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Offlinegref
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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: Everlong]
    #16171506 - 05/02/12 02:18 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

chopstick said:
I just hope they don't turn the d3 storyline into a cartoon for 10 year olds like sc2....lol



ldajnfoaweng we jgnoaw;egmn oawejgnwo; WHAT?!

Well Diablo 3 has a mature rating so I doubt it.
Furthermore, SC2 had the the most engaging and best told story of all RTS games; which, sadly, isn't saying much because RTS games always flop story telling.


Quote:

Everlong said:
No, I was actually talking about Diablo.

And yes, he does look like a chump compared to previous versions (He isn't as bulky).

and I'd suggest not looking into like I did unless you want to be spoiler'd.

:itwasgoodforme:




Yep you fucking nailed it, look at this!


Someone contact Blizzard and tell them that the new Diablo model is crap and they should take us back to the year 2000.

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InvisibleEverlong
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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: gref]
    #16171768 - 05/02/12 03:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

There apparently are reasons for his less bulky look.

mega-spoilery reasons.


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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: Everlong]
    #16175409 - 05/03/12 05:23 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry guys, I don't know where you equate bulk = more evil or whatever. Pretty sure a demon is gonna be a bad ass and having big muscles isn't exactly related with evil doing or fireball shooting.


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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: gref]
    #16175915 - 05/03/12 09:40 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

gref said:
Quote:

chopstick said:
I just hope they don't turn the d3 storyline into a cartoon for 10 year olds like sc2....lol



ldajnfoaweng we jgnoaw;egmn oawejgnwo; WHAT?!

Well Diablo 3 has a mature rating so I doubt it.
Furthermore, SC2 had the the most engaging and best told story of all RTS games; which, sadly, isn't saying much because RTS games always flop story telling.







Lol...you're joking right?

The sc2 singleplayer in general just made me want to cheat my whole way through the entire game rather than actually try to legitly beat any levels. The storyline was stupid as hell, it had no depth compared to SC/SC Broodwar. And those retarded cinematics definitely did not make it better.

Oh well...I guess it doesn't really matter. Still gonna make millions.

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Offlinegref
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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: chopstick]
    #16181697 - 05/04/12 01:02 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Alright well enough of the haters, who else is psyched!? :rockon:
I played the beta a while ago and it's awesome sauce! It's got that same Blizzard feel that makes their games so great. Everything, especially the skills/attacks, feel so authentic and visceral. Like when I was playing the witch doctor and ejaculating swarms of ferocious fire bats I felt so badass!


Also, I just caught up with the lore and story of Diablo and it's pretty good.
There's a good 3-part series on it, here's the first; you can find the rest on YouTube.

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Offlineblujay
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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: gref]
    #16184212 - 05/04/12 11:36 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)



angels don't like to share their toys


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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: blujay]
    #16184421 - 05/05/12 12:35 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

that one angel don't look much like an angel anymore... :eek:

I think it's sick their idea with the halo turning into metal :awesome:


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Offlineblujay
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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: Everlong]
    #16186571 - 05/05/12 03:33 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah Imperius is obviously out to kill all humans or something diabolical (ba dum ching)

Or maybe it's the opposite and Tyrael has turned on us???


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Offlinegref
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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: blujay]
    #16186793 - 05/05/12 04:41 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

blujay said:
Yeah Imperius is obviously out to kill all humans or something diabolical (ba dum ching)

Or maybe it's the opposite and Tyrael has turned on us???




Or maybe their just having kinky time. :lol:

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OfflineChurning
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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: gref]
    #16187727 - 05/05/12 08:22 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I've been so excited for this game to come out.  The wait is finally coming to a close. Nice to see some shroomerites gettin ready for this

If anyone wants someone to play with send me a pm or let me know on this thread

Im goin barb first time thru for old times sake. Got the digital copy and ready to go

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Re: Official Diablo 3 Thread [Re: Churning]
    #16191037 - 05/06/12 04:30 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Maaan the days are going by so slow. It feels like it's never going to arrive!


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