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OfflineAcidHorse
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: koopa_troopa]
    #10056701 - 03/27/09 08:30 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

I still think its a "special move", like DDLLUURR ABAB on the controller of your Nintendo.


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OfflineAcidHorse
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: koopa_troopa]
    #10056760 - 03/27/09 08:38 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

koopa_troopa said:
I have also saw somewhere where someone said that info on the patent is omitted unless you purchase it, which upon doing so, it states that the key to getting huge sclerotia is using Spawn Mate and activated charcoal :smile:




You mean pay for licensing? or do you mean pay for a photocopy of the same PDF thing on the net?
I bought xeroxed copies from the US patent office and there was nothing different.


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Offlinekoopa_troopa
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
    #10057147 - 03/27/09 09:47 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

I have no idea.. ive seen all the copies on the net and saw nothing of the sort but seen someone mention it and looked up the description of the Spawn Mate and it is very similar in description to the time released nutrients and denatured lipid & proteins mentioned in the patent and also have experience with the activated charcoal and its effects on various mycellium growth and thought it was worth mentioning..

I have never heard of diff info being on patents for when they are payed for though as well.. just thought it would be interesting to use the spawn mate.. but I stick to my guns on rufobrunnea! Mark my words.. And your special move is wrong its UUDDLRLR BA haahhaha nice reference to the kanomi code tho :smile:

I still havent had a chance to look up the species the Israeli scientist had success with.. is it M. conica like I presume???


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Offlinekoopa_troopa
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: koopa_troopa]
    #10057257 - 03/27/09 10:19 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

This link is from the same Israeli team that had success.. it states that M. conica can have an 8-10 month fruiting period!! if so this would make it a very likely candidate for indoor growing since it can form ascocarps in a wide variety of conditions... it also relates the formation to drying of the soil: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?aid=54391


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OfflineAcidHorse
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: koopa_troopa]
    #10057480 - 03/27/09 11:09 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

koopa_troopa said:
I have no idea.. ive seen all the copies on the net and saw nothing of the sort but seen someone mention it and looked up the description of the Spawn Mate and it is very similar in description to the time released nutrients and denatured lipid & proteins mentioned in the patent and also have experience with the activated charcoal and its effects on various mycellium growth and thought it was worth mentioning..

I have never heard of diff info being on patents for when they are payed for though as well.. just thought it would be interesting to use the spawn mate.. but I stick to my guns on rufobrunnea! Mark my words.. And your special move is wrong its UUDDLRLR BA haahhaha nice reference to the kanomi code tho :smile:

I still havent had a chance to look up the species the Israeli scientist had success with.. is it M. conica like I presume???




Actually it was the special code for Lui Kang full circle and ab or something


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Offlinekoopa_troopa
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
    #10059638 - 03/28/09 11:47 AM (15 years, 3 days ago)

btw.. the man behind the israeli success is Segula Masaphy.. info is hard to come by at my residence.. ill have to check it out at the university later.. lemme know if anyone can find any of his research (full, not just the abstracts..)


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: koopa_troopa]
    #10059904 - 03/28/09 12:52 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Hm, I wouldn't call that a success in cultivation, instead they found a mutant strain in the wild.

Also read here:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9417176#9417176

Carsten

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Mycelio]
    #10059984 - 03/28/09 01:12 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

According to some articles.. they claim to have success in cultivating several species of morel.. if true its most certainly a success and given the amount of people that have in vitro success even cultivation a mutant strain is amazing...  I read the link, where does it state in any way that it was a mutant or even if it was the strain they used for cultivation? It could very well be an adapted sub strain of M conica (a random mutation.. but after all arent all species some form of mutation? ala evolution??) .. after all the The MDCP stated that they have found 16 different morel species in N America alone.. far greater than was previously expected, and for all we know Mills might have done the same as well.

But from what I gather the Israeli team claim their success was in part due to a special substrate bed they created to control the exact temp and conditions of the substrate.. This is interesting.. all indications for successful in vitro growth of morchella are pointing to 2 necessary criteria.. Using species that are very saprotrophic and the ability to have EXACT control of environmental condition (FAE, CO2 levels, humidity of air & substrate etc.. They also claimed to have one upped Mills in the flavor department by the addition of certain chemicals..

I wonder what the hell the third guy off the mills ower patent (Malachowski) is up to these days and why he isnt doing anything.. He most certainly has to know the secret

Edited by koopa_troopa (03/28/09 01:29 PM)

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Offlinekoopa_troopa
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: koopa_troopa]
    #10060134 - 03/28/09 01:50 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

I found some really interesting info here https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/98-044.pdf.. It was done by an Australian team.. although they were unable to have success with many variations of the Ower Mills patent, but did achieve some success in primordia formation and increased the period and harshness of the induced winter phase described by Mills to 11 months, here is a quote:

"primordia were formed from sclerotia in two petri dishes containing potato dextrose
agar in which local tasmanian strains of morel (DPI96005) had been cultured at approximately 4C for
eleven months. It is possible that certain strains of this fungus will fruit more readily. This
isolate has been retained for further experimentation." This is proof that strains can be sub cultured to posses more adventurous ascocarps..

I also found an excellent comprehensive source of many morel studies here http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/publications/gtr710/pnw_gtr710c.pdf.. It is a must read.. it also sheds light on the argument of fruit body formation in naturally head sterilized environment, specifically in the aftermath of the Mt St Helens eruption "Carpenter and others (1987) made the point that phoenicoid fungi (fungi that
fruit in burned areas) are not just associated with fires, but also with soils heated by
volcanism. Their study of areas affected by the 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens
in Washington state found that the explosive blast blended organic debris and pH-
neutral tephra into a heat-sterilized mix that buried live mycelium under snow. As
the snow melted, surviving fungal mycelium in the buried soil had the opportunity
to grow into this deposit, presumably without significant competition from other
soil microbes. Morels fruited abundantly in such heat-sterilized mixed deposits on
north-facing slopes and in heat-killed but standing forests that received an 8- to
15-inch ash deposit, but not in areas with deeper deposits or no admixed organic
matter."


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Edited by koopa_troopa (03/28/09 02:07 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: koopa_troopa]
    #10064557 - 03/29/09 06:59 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

From Israel, I know of two stories. The first describes a mutant strain in the Dan valley, that lost its dependency on spring temperatures, so it fruits, whenever the humidity fits its needs. As it is mentioned in the 'Maitake and Morels' PDF, in that article in the Cambridge journal and as there is some scientific paper written about it, I see it as possible. But I don't know how to obtain spores or a tissue sample from there...

The other story is about cultivation success of several morel species. As all I found was a newspaper article, I have my doubts and wouldn't spend too much time thinking about it.

I am focusing on the fact that some types of morels fruit in garden beds, which have been mulched with pine bark or wood chips. Sometimes even without vegetation around. Just see those images of an impressing find on a large area mulched with several types of wood and bark:
http://www.pilzepilze.de/cgi-bin/webbbs/pconfig.pl?read=137497

Generally I also think that we have better chances by starting a lot of cultures from spores of different morel species, as it should raise the probability to get strains, that will fruit easier. Though as long as we won't get any indoor fruiting at all, that benefit is purely theoretical.

Carsten

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Mycelio]
    #10064755 - 03/29/09 08:16 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

okay. im confused?
what is the formula to grow these morals?
Why is it any more difficult than growing oyster mushrooms are cubensis?

:snow:

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: blackdust]
    #10065253 - 03/29/09 10:28 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Seriously? psuedo sclerotia... read the last link i put up


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Mycelio]
    #10065278 - 03/29/09 10:32 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Mycello..I totally agree.. the species you are referring to is know as the landscape morel.. rufobrunnea.. read this pdf it is the most comprehensive source of research on the matter that I have found http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/publications/gtr710/pnw_gtr710c.pdf


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: koopa_troopa]
    #10068052 - 03/29/09 04:49 PM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

koopa_troopa said:
btw.. the man behind the israeli success is Segula Masaphy.. info is hard to come by at my residence.. ill have to check it out at the university later.. lemme know if anyone can find any of his research (full, not just the abstracts..)




Segula is not a man but is a woman. And I tried to contact her.


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
    #10068393 - 03/29/09 05:34 PM (15 years, 2 days ago)

lol havent met that many Segula's in my day.. Im guessing you tried to contact here through Gavish Galilee or though personal email? I was looking for her email to do the same.. did you get a chance to check out the last link I posted AcidHorse?

What do you make of the 80 ton falling film ice
"slurry system” (EPRI 1998) built for Terry Farms and Mills operation in Alabama?

And what about the theory that fruit bodies can be formed from monokaryotic (haploid) “primary” mycelium derived from a single spore?? both of these statements are discussed in the link I referred to..


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: koopa_troopa] * 1
    #10071941 - 03/30/09 02:35 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

koopa_troopa said:
lol havent met that many Segula's in my day.. Im guessing you tried to contact here through Gavish Galilee or though personal email? I was looking for her email to do the same.. did you get a chance to check out the last link I posted AcidHorse?

What do you make of the 80 ton falling film ice
"slurry system� (EPRI 1998) built for Terry Farms and Mills operation in Alabama?

And what about the theory that fruit bodies can be formed from monokaryotic (haploid) �primary� mycelium derived from a single spore??
both of these statements are discussed in the link I referred to..




Those documents I have had for some time a long while back, don't forget there is an A,B,C, and D volume
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/publications/gtr710/pnw_gtr710a.pdf
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/publications/gtr710/pnw_gtr710b.pdf
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/publications/gtr710/pnw_gtr710c.pdf
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/publications/gtr710/pnw_gtr710d.pdf

And Terry Farms and an ice machine? The stupidest thing done if they actually did that.
Temperatures fluctuate during the day with highs in the afternoon. lows in the early nighttime morning.
And that happens constantly during "late winter-soon to be early spring".
No snow for over a month and still cold but not freezing. So Terry Farms is counting on you being stupid
and believing that morels grow right after the snow melts. It has nothing to do with snow.

And in response to the last thing you asked, have you heard of protoplast fusion?

It makes me wonder about how morel would react to a close relative like Disciotis venosa or a different species of Morchella.

Did you know protoplast fusion can be induced using polyethylene glycol?



"Mitosis is the process in which a cell divides into two cells with identical genetic information. The number of chromosomes in the resulting two daughter cells is equal to the number of chromosomes in the parent cell. It is very important that this copy be exact. Almost all the cells in the body are produced by mitosis.

Meiosis is the process in which a cell divides into four cells and the number of chromosomes in the daughter cells is half the number in the parent cell. These cells, with half the number of chromosomes, are called haploid cells; this is opposed to most cells, including the parent cell, which are called diploid cells. Meiosis is required for sexual reproduction; a haploid cell will combine with another haploid cell from a different individual and the genetic information will combine into a new set of chromosomes and a diploid cell. This creates genetic diversion. "


Three lines of evidence are reported for heterokaryon formation in M. esculenta and related species. Cultural studies demonstrated a genetic basis for different types of interactions between mycelia from sister and non-sister spores. Cytological studies of the mycelial interaction between non-sister monoascosporous isolates demonstrated nuclear pairing in presumptive heterokaryons. Two different mutations isolated is this
study were used to show genetic complementation in these heterokaryons.

A heterokaryon is a cell that contains multiple, genetically different nuclei. This can occur naturally, such as in the mycelium of fungi during sexual reproduction, or artificially as formed by the experimental fusion of two genetically different cells.

Hybrid cell The cell that arises when a heterokaryon resulting from cell fusion enters mitosis

monokaryotic

homothallism

In meiosis, which is required in sexual reproduction, one diploid cell (having two instances of each chromosome, one from each parent) undergoes recombination of each pair of parental chromosomes, and then two stages of cell division, resulting in four haploid cells (gametes). Each gamete has just one complement of chromosomes, each a unique mix of the corresponding pair of parental chromosomes.

Mitosis is the process in which a eukaryotic cell separates the chromosomes in its cell nucleus, into two identical sets in two daughter nuclei.[1] It is generally followed immediately by cytokinesis, which divides the nuclei, cytoplasm, organelles and cell membrane into two daughter cells containing roughly equal shares of these cellular components. Mitosis and cytokinesis together define the mitotic (M) phase of the cell cycle - the division of the mother cell into two daughter cells, genetically identical to each other and to their parent cell.

In biology, meiosis (pronounced IPA:[ma?'??s?s]) is a process of reductional division in which the number of chromosomes per cell is halved. In animals, meiosis always results in the formation of gametes, while in other organisms it can give rise to spores. As with mitosis, before meiosis begins, the DNA in the original cell is replicated during S-phase of the cell cycle. Two cell divisions separate the replicated chromosomes into four haploid gametes or spores.

Meiosis is essential for sexual reproduction and therefore occurs in all eukaryotes (including single-celled organisms) that reproduce sexually. A few eukaryotes, notably the Bdelloid rotifers, have lost the ability to carry out meiosis and have acquired the ability to reproduce by parthenogenesis. Meiosis does not occur in archaea or bacteria, which reproduce via asexual processes such as binary fission.

During meiosis, the genome of a diploid germ cell, which is composed of long segments of DNA packaged into chromosomes, undergoes DNA replication followed by two rounds of division, resulting in four haploid cells. Each of these cells contain one complete set of chromosomes, or half of the genetic content of the original cell. If meiosis produces gametes, these cells must fuse during fertilization to create a new diploid cell, or zygote before any new growth can occur. Thus, the division mechanism of meiosis is a reciprocal process to the joining of two genomes that occurs at fertilization. Because the chromosomes of each parent undergo genetic recombination during meiosis, each gamete, and thus each zygote, will have a unique genetic blueprint encoded in its DNA. Together, meiosis and fertilization constitute sexuality in the eukaryotes, and generate genetically distinct individuals in populations.

In all plants, and in many protists, meiosis results in the formation of haploid cells that can divide vegetatively without undergoing fertilization, referred to as spores. In these groups, gametes are produced by mitosis.

The typical ascomycete life cycle involves the association of haploid, monokaryotic branched filaments.  In the case of morel (Morchella), hyphae of two compatible mating types associate and begin to weave the ascocarp.  Then, in the hymenial layer, each filament has cells that enlarge.  The functional female grows a long structure called a trichogyne that fuses with an enlarged cell in the compatible filament.  The result is the emergence of a filament that remains haploid with two distinct nuclei (dikaryotic).  As it divides, the terminal end makes a crook (called a crozier) that sequesters one of the nuclei to insure that each daughter cell has the full complement of haploid nuclei.  This dikaryon is short-lived and after a few cell divisions leads to the development of the ascus, within which the haploid nuclei fuse and then undergo meiosis to form the ascospores on the surface of the ascocarp. 

BIOLOGY: "The Lifecycle of the Morel Mushroom." Lucy Gutierrez [Professor Kathy Jacobson]. Revealing the nature of the morel mushroom lifecycle is critical to understanding the population genetics of this fungus. There is suggestive evidence that the morel fruiting body is not dikaryotic, but a functional haploid (formed from monokaryotic mycelium). In order to determine the ploidy of the morel fruiting body, we used randomly amplified polymorphic DNA markers to compare the tissue of the fruiting body to that of its single spore isolates. If the resulting "fingerprints" of the fruiting body tissue were identical to that of its spores, this would suggest a monokaryotic fruiting body. If, however, the spore fingerprint was a subset of the fingerprint obtained from the fruiting body tissue, this would suggest that the tissue is dikaryotic. These findings could have significant application to the study of the morel's ability to reproduce in new environments and in studying variation within and between morel populations.

    * "Using Randomly Amplified Polymorphic DNA (RAPD) Markers to Examine the Lifecycle of Morels" was presented at the Iowa Academy of Science annual conference, Des Moines, April 20-21, 2001. The abtract of this paper was published in the Proceedings.

Sexual Life Cycle of Ascomycota.

    The mycelium is initiated with the germination of an ascospore, and some after the mycelium begins to form conidiophores which bear conidia. Many crops of conidia are produced during the growing season, and it is the conidia that are responsible for propagation of the fungus.

    Ascus formation occurs on the same mycelium that produces conidia and is preceded by the formation of generally multinucleate gametangia called "antheridia" and "ascogonia". The male nuclei of the antheridium pass into the ascogonium via the "trichogyne", which is an outgrowth of the ascogonium. "Plasmogamy", the fusion of the two protoplasts, has now taken place. The male nuclei then pair with the genetically different female nuclei within the common cytoplasm but they do not fuse with them. Hyphal filaments now begin to grow out of the ascogonium and elongate into "ascogenous hyphae". As the ascogenous hyphae develop, pairs of nuclei migrate into them and simultaneous mitotic divisions occur in the hyphae and ascogonium. Cell division in the developing ascogenous hyphae occurs in such a way that the resulting cells are "dikaryotic" (ie. containing two haploid nuclei).

    The ascus first forms at the tip of the developing dikaryotic, ascogenous hypha. In the formation of an ascus, one of the binucleate cells of the dikaryotic hypha grows over to from a hook, or "crozier". In this hooked cell, the two nuclei divide in such a way that their spindle fibers are parallel and more or less vertical orientation. Two of the daughter nuclei are close to one another at the top of the hook; one of the others is near the tip and the other is near the basal septum of the hook. Two septa are then formed; these divide the hook into three cells, of which the middle one becomes the ascus. It is in this middle cell that "karyogamy" occurs: the two nuclei fuse to from a diploid nucleus (zygote), the only diploid nucleus in the life cycle of ascomycetes. Soon after karyogamy, the young ascus begins to elongate. The diploid nucleus the undergoes meiosis, which is generally followed by one mitotic division, giving a total of four of eight nuclei. These haploid nuclei are then cut off in segments of the cytoplasm to form "ascospores". In most ascomycetes, the ascus becomes turgid at maturity and finally bursts, sending its ascospores explosively into the air.


Hey I got to get to sleep, go over these notes and try to dig something out.


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Edited by AcidHorse (03/30/09 08:41 AM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: koopa_troopa]
    #10073134 - 03/30/09 10:33 AM (15 years, 1 day ago)


A slightly different perspective on the life cycle.

Or



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Edited by AcidHorse (03/30/09 11:22 AM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: koopa_troopa]
    #10075067 - 03/30/09 04:49 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

If you ever get to read the PDF "Cultural Studies of Morchella elata" by Richard S. Winder,

http://bookstore.cfs.nrcan.gc.ca/detail_e.php?recid=12585688

He mistakes Morchella tomentosa for Morchella elata.

Quote:


"The ascomata of M. elata are distinguished
from other black morels by smooth, ivory–white
stalks in younger fruiting bodies, by steel-grey tones in the
ridges and pits of the pileus, and by the production of spores
larger than those of M. angusticeps
"
- "Cultural Studies of Morchella elata"




This is clearly Morchella tomentosa and Michael Kuo would back that up.

Quote:


Gray morels—also called fuzzy foot morel, black stocking morel, or black foot morel (fig. 2).
Description—Head: elongate-ovoid to nearly columnar when young, expanding
variously in age. Ribs: conspicuously velvety/hairy when young, the hairs collapsing with age; silvery gray to charcoal gray when young; gray to black at maturity where intact; edges extremely fragile, soon cracking and breaking away to expose the white to ivory underlying tissue; lacking fertile tissue. Pits: deep gray to nearly black when young, varying from gray to tan to dark ivory in age. Stalk: charcoal gray to nearly black when young, becoming pale gray to tan to ivory at maturity; densely velvety from projecting hyphae when young; the velvety layer stretched apart leaving tufts of brown hyphal tips on an ivory, off-white, or pale tan background in age. Spore size: 19–25 x 13–16 μm.

-http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/publications/gtr710/pnw_gtr710a.pdf




Quote:


Figure 2—
A series of photographs illustrating color changes in a maturing gray morel. Photographs taken June 25, July 2, and July 9, 2003, at the Livengood Fire (78 miles NW of Fairbanks, AK). Note varied scales (spruce needle size) and lighting in each photograph.
-Karl Olson




And the first frame in that picture, when they are at that stage they don't eject spores even if forced. They are just not mature yet.
That's why small morels shouldn't be picked when they are only an inch or two. Otherwise they will disappear from the area.

The mature stage is the platinum blonde stage.

Its wild they are the anole morel of the alpines or Chameleon morel. Which actually sounds more like a reiteration of the description of all morels.

But these guys change colors dramatically.

Its the Michael Jackson of Morels!!!!!!!

And probably quite literally since melanin is responsible for all these color changes in any morel.

Edited by AcidHorse (03/30/09 07:14 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
    #10076634 - 03/30/09 08:36 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

I didnt believe the Terry Farms statement myself but it is weird they pulled it out their ass.. why 80 tons instead of 50? lol.. why would it also appear on statements from the company that supposedly engineer it? I dont think the melting of the snow is important.. however, maybe its a simple way to control the damping off or drying of the substrate while simultaneously allowing a gradual temp increase? IDK but it is weird that even the parent company of the machines fabricated info on the device..

In regard to your statements on polyethylene glycol, I have ironically been reading alot about plasmogamy and it seems to be the future for commercial mushroom production.. I was also able to find many connections between the production and use of polyethylene glycol and the succinic acids that DNP also produces..


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: koopa_troopa]
    #10080826 - 03/31/09 02:40 PM (15 years, 14 hours ago)

about that statement earlier about spawn mate and charcoal what is that about? and the morel culture i'm working with is elata is it dependant on trees too will it be more complicated than rufobrunnea would be?


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