Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana - Shroomery News Service

Home | Community | Message Board

You are not signed in.
New Account

Forum Index Search Posts Best Posts Active Topics Galleries FAQ User List Calendar Chat Store Random Growery

Feedback and Administration >> Shroomery News Service

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop for: Hemp

Jump to first unread post.

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next > [ show all ]

SbstratAlchemist
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 975
Last seen: 6 hours, 8 minutes

Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

#9931905 - 03/07/09 11:59 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_11864334

It's a tempting idea: Legalize and tax a commodity that a lot of people like, collect the revenue, and reap the budgetary benefits. In economic times like these, that might be just the formula we need to pull us out of the red. In this case, the truth does not live up to the hype.

Legalizing marijuana will not solve our budget woes, nor will it be good for public health. Introducing marijuana into the open market is very likely to do some other things, however: increase the drug's consumption, and with it, the enormous social costs associated with marijuana-related accidents, illness and productivity loss.

The example of legal alcohol and tobacco reveal an unsettling pattern. Legal drugs are by definition easy to obtain, and commercialization glamorizes their use and furthers their social acceptance. Their price is low, and high profits make promotion worthwhile for sellers. Addiction is simply the price of doing business. Any revenue gained from taxing these drugs is quickly offset by the heavy costs associated with their increased prevalence. Because today's high-potency marijuana is much more harmful than once thought, a spike in use from legalization would result in a financial burden California cannot afford to bear.

It is almost universally accepted in the medical community that marijuana use is linked with mental illness. Since the appearance of the British Medical Journal's famous 2002 headline, "Marijuana and psychiatric illness: the link grows stronger," the research showing marijuana's link with illnesses like psychosis and schizophrenia has become frighteningly commonplace. In fact, researchers from King's College in London have shown that eliminating marijuana use would decrease the incidence of schizophrenia in the American population by more than 8 percent.

Assemblyman Tom Ammiano's justification for AB 390 relies on the myth that marijuana laws are costing taxpayers millions of dollars and wrecking the lives of otherwise law-abiding citizens. But a closer examination of the facts reveals a very different reality. Although there are thousands of arrests for marijuana possession every year in our state, most of these arrests result in little or no consequences. Most of those who are charged with possession plead down from more serious charges, such as trafficking. Researchers from Rand report that many marijuana arrests result from drinking and driving violations at alcohol checkpoints. "The police also find joints, and then (the offender) is in jail for both offenses. People's images of the casual (marijuana) user getting hauled off to jail are not true," a Rand researcher recently commented.

Rand-sponsored research reveals that in the Netherlands, where the drug is sold openly at "coffee shops," marijuana use among young adults increased almost 300 percent after a wave of commercialization. The country has also become a haven for producers of high-potency marijuana, and other drugs like ecstasy and methamphetamine. These unintended consequences have led many Dutch officials to advocate for rolling back the status quo.

To be sure, restricting marijuana use by law — especially because some people find it extremely pleasurable — is not without its costs. But legalizing this addictive substance would only exacerbate our problems by increasing the harm that greater levels of use will cause. Given the heavy costs associated with our two legal substances, and the relatively minor costs associated with our current restrictive marijuana policy, the case for a commercial market for marijuana remains weak and unconvincing — even in this uncomfortable economic environment.

Kevin A. Sabet, a senior drug policy adviser in the Clinton and Bush administrations, is a native of Anaheim. He wrote this article for the Mercury News.

Post Extras:

SbstratAlchemist
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 975
Last seen: 6 hours, 8 minutes

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: SbstratAlchemist]
#9932000 - 03/08/09 12:20 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

"It is almost universally accepted in the medical community that marijuana use is linked with mental illness."

:what:

Post Extras:

veggie

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 13,985
Loc:

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: SbstratAlchemist]
#9932084 - 03/08/09 12:41 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Normally these straight up opinion pieces don't belong in Shroomery News, but Kevin A. Sabet is a well known guy, having written speeches for the past two drug czars. I don't see even one of his statements that have any merit and he certainly won't get any support here. Fortunately his views and opinions are in the minority and have been shown to be inaccurate to say the least. The tide has turned, marijuana legalization is on it's way and people like this are on their way out.

Post Extras:

JMR
Deviator

Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 655
Loc: Zion Highlands
Last seen: 11 months, 1 day

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: veggie]
#9932160 - 03/08/09 01:17 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I think that this guy is an idiot. No wonder the drug war has gone on so long with morons like him advising people.

Post Extras:

Coaster
Baʿal

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 33,501
Loc: Deep in the Valley
Last seen: 7 months, 17 days

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: JMR]
#9932166 - 03/08/09 01:18 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

i dont kare i like it how it is in kali the way it tis
worx 4 me
:happyweed:

--------------------

Post Extras:

veggie

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 13,985
Loc:

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: SbstratAlchemist]
#9932225 - 03/08/09 03:08 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Here is another more sensible point of view also from California also from 3/7 from California NORML ...

Time has come to legalize pot
March 7, 2009 - LA Daily News
By Dale Gieringer

With the state out of money and its the prisons overflowing, California's laws against marijuana make no economic sense.

Every year, the state shells out millions in taxpayers' dollars to arrest, prosecute and imprison marijuana offenders in a vain attempt to stamp out its use. Meanwhile, legal and more dangerous drugs such as tobacco and alcohol are generating billions in revenues for the state.

California taxpayers would benefit from a new bill by San Francisco Assemblyman Tom Ammiano that would legalize, tax and regulate marijuana for adult use. The bill would establish a state-licensing system for producers and distributors, who could sell to adults over 21.

Producers would pay an excise tax of $50 per ounce, or about $1 per joint. Additional revenues would be generated from sales taxes. Altogether, tax revenues would be on the order of $1 billion, comparable to the cigarette tax.

This is a common sense, fiscally conservative policy that would regulate cannabis in a manner similar to other legal intoxicants and raise much-needed revenue for state and county governments.

At the same time, this policy would eliminate marijuana-related crime and law enforcement expenses, which include an estimated $170 million annually for the arrest, prosecution and imprisonment of marijuana offenders. It would likewise put an end to such prohibition-related problems as the proliferation of black market dealers, grow houses, smugglers and pirate gardeners on public lands.

Finally, a legal marijuana industry could generate substantial additional economic benefits in legal employment, business and payroll taxes, and spin-off industries - like the wine industry, which currently contributes $50 billion to California's economy.

History shows that California's laws against marijuana have failed. The state first prohibited marijuana or "Indian hemp" in 1913 over concerns that "Hindoo" immigrants might spread its use to whites. Only after being outlawed did marijuana become widely popular, eventually spreading to millions of Californians.

By 1975, enforcement costs had become so high that the Legislature decriminalized possession of small quantities in the Moscone Act, saving the state $100 million each year.

Despite dire predictions by opponents, decriminalization had no perceptible effect on marijuana use by either adults or young people. Nonetheless, production and distribution remained illegal, causing continued prohibition-related problems. In 1990, the California Research Advisory Panel urged further decriminalization, noting that "an objective consideration of marijuana shows that it is responsible for less damage to society and the individual than are alcohol and cigarettes."

In 1996, California voters legalized the medical use of marijuana in Proposition 215 (though neglecting to establish a legally regulated supply system). Contrary to the predictions of opponents, marijuana use by youth actually declined after Proposition 215, but arrests continued unabated. Because medical users are only a small fraction of the marijuana market, law enforcement costs have continued to be a drain on the state.

In 2007, marijuana-related arrests jumped 13 percent to 74,119 - their highest level since the Moscone Act. California now has more than 1,500 marijuana prisoners, more than 10 times as many as in 1980. Marijuana accounts for 61 percent of the illicit drug traffic from Mexico, where prohibition-fueled gang wars have killed more than 6,800 people.

In California, agents eradicated a record 5 million illegal plants last year, up more than tenfold since 2003. The value of the illegal crop has been estimated as high as $14 billion, enough to qualify as the state's leading crop.

Ammiano deserves credit for recognizing that the only way to solve the marijuana problem is to legalize, tax and regulate it. Although politicians have been chary of mentioning the "L-word," public attitudes are changing.

A new Zogby poll shows that 44 percent of voters now support taxing and regulating marijuana - and as many as 58 percent in the western states back legalization. As usual, California is ahead of the rest of the nation. Ammiano's bill provides a path-breaking blueprint for change that would benefit our economy, safety and freedom by making marijuana a winning proposition for California.

Dale Gieringer is the director of California NORML, the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws. Readers may contact him via e-mail at dale@canorml.org.

Post Extras:

IdeLOLogies
Strange

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 407
Last seen: 4 days, 15 hours

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: Coaster]
#9932327 - 03/08/09 05:04 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
i dont kare i like it how it is in kali the way it tis
worx 4 me

Seems a bit selfish doesn't it?

"I'm fine so fuck everyone else...."

Carry on spreading the love.

--------------------
Eva, can I stab bats in a cave?

Remember, God is only interested in harvesting your soul :thumbup:

Post Extras:

TheHauntingSoul
Not really that cool

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 810
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: IdeLOLogies]
#9932351 - 03/08/09 05:30 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I agree that ultimately it doesnt matter that much to me. The laws have never hindered my ability to find weed, or my desire to smoke it, or WHERE I smoke it.

That being said, this guy is a dumb piece of shit

Quote:

"The police also find joints, and then (the offender) is in jail for both offenses. People's images of the casual (marijuana) user getting hauled off to jail are not true,"

This is also utter bullshit, casual marijuana users get hauled off to jail all the fucking time.
I would certainly consider someone smoking 7 grams a week as a casual-semi-regular user. Most US cops will try to at least pull you down to the station over that, if not stuff you in a cell for a few days.

This guy is a douche bag. Why do people have to fight inevitable progress?

The worst part is that these people who argue against it completely disappear once they are proven wrong and then there is nobody to rub it in their face.

Because god knows we all want to rub it in this guys face once it does get legalized, and it WILL some day.

Post Extras:

libertyshroom
Turn up the silence

Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 372
Loc: Inside of Emptyness
Last seen: 6 months, 15 days

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: SbstratAlchemist]
#9932423 - 03/08/09 06:19 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SbstratAlchemist said:
http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_11864334

It's a tempting idea: Legalize and tax a commodity that a lot of people like, collect the revenue, and reap the budgetary benefits. In economic times like these, that might be just the formula we need to pull us out of the red. In this case, the truth does not live up to the hype.

Legalizing marijuana will not solve our budget woes, nor will it be good for public health. Introducing marijuana into the open market is very likely to do some other things, however: increase the drug's consumption, and with it, the enormous social costs associated with marijuana-related accidents, illness and productivity loss.

This guy is a complete douche. Increase the drugs consumption? That's good! More people will experience the benefits that cannabis brings. More open minded people, less violence. Cannabis does not cause illness or productivity loss, natural factors and bad attitudes cause those. The social costs would be way less than the enormous profit to be made from this plant.

Quote:

It is almost universally accepted in the medical community that marijuana use is linked with mental illness. Since the appearance of the British Medical Journal's famous 2002 headline, "Marijuana and psychiatric illness: the link grows stronger," the research showing marijuana's link with illnesses like psychosis and schizophrenia has become frighteningly commonplace. In fact, researchers from King's College in London have shown that eliminating marijuana use would decrease the incidence of schizophrenia in the American population by more than 8 percent.

It is not accepted in the medical community that marijuana is linked with mental illness, this was disproven many years ago. It can bring up underlying mental illness but does not cause it. Where this dick gets his research is a pretty unreliable source. Eliminating Marijuana use would only MAYBE decrease the incidence of schizophrenia by 8 percent for a few years until the mental illness naturally comes out.

Quote:

Assemblyman Tom Ammiano's justification for AB 390 relies on the myth that marijuana laws are costing taxpayers millions of dollars and wrecking the lives of otherwise law-abiding citizens. But a closer examination of the facts reveals a very different reality. Although there are thousands of arrests for marijuana possession every year in our state, most of these arrests result in little or no consequences. Most of those who are charged with possession plead down from more serious charges, such as trafficking. Researchers from Rand report that many marijuana arrests result from drinking and driving violations at alcohol checkpoints. "The police also find joints, and then (the offender) is in jail for both offenses. People's images of the casual (marijuana) user getting hauled off to jail are not true," a Rand researcher recently commented.

This is not a myth. This is a reality. Take a look at the jails and you can disprove this bullshit easily. While their are some Cannabis smokers that do also drink and drive, it is not all of them. Complete generalization on this fags part. Even if this was the case it would still be costing millions of taxpayer dollars a year and innocent people would still be sent to jail.

Quote:

Rand-sponsored research reveals that in the Netherlands, where the drug is sold openly at "coffee shops," marijuana use among young adults increased almost 300 percent after a wave of commercialization. The country has also become a haven for producers of high-potency marijuana, and other drugs like ecstasy and methamphetamine. These unintended consequences have led many Dutch officials to advocate for rolling back the status quo.

Increased Cannabis consumption is not a bad thing. This guy is a dumbfuck. Yes, many drugs are produced in The Netherlands, they have a logical drug policy. Its even worse in the US so I don't know what he is trying to say here but his point is invalid and therefore should be ignored like this whole goddamn article.

Quote:

To be sure, restricting marijuana use by law — especially because some people find it extremely pleasurable — is not without its costs. But legalizing this addictive substance would only exacerbate our problems by increasing the harm that greater levels of use will cause. Given the heavy costs associated with our two legal substances, and the relatively minor costs associated with our current restrictive marijuana policy, the case for a commercial market for marijuana remains weak and unconvincing — even in this uncomfortable economic environment.

Once again this substance causes very little harm. It is not addictive at all, this misinformed pathetic guy needs to get his facts straight before he writes a fucking article about it causing even more misinformation. Alcohol and Tobacco are two of the worst drugs and Cannabis is one of the safest so you can't even compare them in this way.

This article pissed me the fuck off, as you can see. Misinformation is like a goddamn disease, one person is affected and they spread it by telling others which tell others until it becomes a fucking epidemic and the smart people that follow logic and science get fucked over because of it. I hope this guy gets assassinated or something lol.

I have 0 respect for this douchebag who is trying to keep the world in the fucking dark ages. :enraged:

--------------------

"Trip to heave and ho, up down, to and fro"

We have been to the moon, we have charted the depths of the ocean and the heart of the atom, but we have a fear of looking inward to ourselves because we sense that is where all the contradictions flow together.
-Terrence McKenna

Edited by libertyshroom (03/08/09 06:20 AM)

Post Extras:

neopet nub
Stranger

Registered: 11/29/08
Posts: 2,408
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: libertyshroom]
#9932608 - 03/08/09 08:08 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I agree 100% liberty.

People like this guy are spreading rumors about disproven studies.

--------------------
Ego death from weed!

Post Extras:

TheHauntingSoul
Not really that cool

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 810
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: neopet nub]
#9932634 - 03/08/09 08:21 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

The fuckin weird thing is we always use the constitution to support the idea that drugs should be permitted, but its almost as if the constitution was specifically worded for that purpose.

the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Apart from the issue of prohibition, I honestly cannot think of a single issue that actually has realistic relevance these days.

maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough

Post Extras:

DoYouMusHrOOM
enlightened

Registered: 02/23/09
Posts: 82
Loc: Artic Circle
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: TheHauntingSoul]
#9932649 - 03/08/09 08:28 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

i just blew a fat cloud in his face.

--------------------
Spirit is the Life, Mind is the Builder, and the Physical is the Result

Post Extras:

Green_T
Getting to the chopper

Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 4,024

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: TheHauntingSoul]
#9932655 - 03/08/09 08:29 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TheHauntingSoul said:
The fuckin weird thing is we always use the constitution to support the idea that drugs should be permitted, but its almost as if the constitution was specifically worded for that purpose.

the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Apart from the issue of prohibition, I honestly cannot think of a single issue that actually has realistic relevance these days.

maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough

That's in the declaration of independence, not the constitution. However, it still has merit because the founding fathers knew that if people don't have these 3 basic rights, they revolt.

--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

Their vial of acid, which is on the table over there, tastes vile because they're incompetent chemists.

Post Extras:

TheHauntingSoul
Not really that cool

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 810
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: Green_T]
#9932669 - 03/08/09 08:34 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

haha yeah sorry the declaration of independence.

I'm Canadian so I don't really know/give a shit to learn about us politics.

Canada would probably have legalized pot by now if it wasn't for the United States

Post Extras:

Green_T
Getting to the chopper

Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 4,024

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: TheHauntingSoul]
#9932705 - 03/08/09 08:43 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I bet a lot of countries in the world would have legalized if it wasn't for the US or the UN. The UN doesn't allow countries to have liberal drug laws either. The UN is so anti-drug because every time a country suggests otherwise the US gives them stink because it is assumed the country will be a haven for drug terrorists. :whatever:

Anyway, this guy's article is full of holes, and I think most people will see through it. I think the big difference in the current legalization debate is that there are people that are for it, against it, and independent/indifferent, but now the independents are leaning more towards legalization.

--------------------

Post Extras:

downlowfunk
Retired Festival Veteran

Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 474
Loc: Physical Realm
Last seen: 21 hours, 56 minutes

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: Green_T]
#9932743 - 03/08/09 08:56 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry but true. In wrong way. Police, Prison Guards get paid. They buy groceries, goods and services. Less police on the beat... less people getting paid, more job loss.

Marijuana Leveling the value of goods, one bud at a time.

All Hail Discordia and the Hash King!n

Post Extras:

Kumara
Dragoness

Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 171
Last seen: 3 days, 26 minutes

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: downlowfunk]
#9932773 - 03/08/09 09:09 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I also didn't see anything about the fact that the Mexican government is on the verge of a complete meltdown over drug wars on the border. Mexico disintegrating won't effect the US, right?

Even if it were true that "It is almost universally accepted in the medical community that marijuana use is linked with mental illness." (and a little research shows clearly, it isn't), this same medical community awarded Moniz, the guy who came up with the idea of lobotomies using an ice pick, a NOBEL PRIZE for his brilliant idea. Oops!

But ranting over here is just preaching to the choir...*sigh*

Post Extras:

Green_T
Getting to the chopper

Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 4,024

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: downlowfunk]
#9932784 - 03/08/09 09:13 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think cops will be losing their jobs any time soon. They still have plenty of arrests coming in from other drugs, and maybe now they can focus on lesser offenses. As long as people are unhappy, police will be needed.

Also, the prisons are overflowing. Im really not kidding. There are some prisons in California that are so stuffed, they are starting to put bunk beds in the gyms for the non-violent/petty offenders. If you have a chance to watch "prison nation" on National Geographic, watch it. Our prison population is so large, it could actually be a country itself.

However, if the drug war kept going, it would definitely create jobs in construction and others as private prisons keep getting build with our tax dollars.

------
edit: The myth of marijuana being linked to mental illness has been debunked. It was found that the link was casual, and thus not related. Thats like saying jaywalking results in sprained ankles.

--------------------

Post Extras:

johnnyblaze2316

Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 3,121
Loc: West coast

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: Green_T]
#9933048 - 03/08/09 10:47 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

fuck this guy and his dea propaganda

Post Extras:

aDoS
freedom lover

Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 7,590
Loc: land of the free

Re: Opinion: California can't afford to legalize marijuana

[Re: SbstratAlchemist]
#9933319 - 03/08/09 11:49 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

yeah, because cannabis causes WAY more social problems than alcohol :rolleyes:

IT MAKES PEOPLE FEEL GOOD WITH MINIMAL NEGATIVE EFFECTS FOR FUCK'S SAKE

--------------------
"If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley
:drooling:

GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH :drooling:

Post Extras:

Jump to top.

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next > [ show all ]

Shop for: Hemp

Feedback and Administration >> Shroomery News Service

Similar Threads	Poster	Views	Replies	Last post
Legalize marijuana?: Farmington graduate in medical drug debate [NM]	veggie	1,975	3	09/29/08 05:45 PM by ExplosiveMango
The Clash Between Federal Drug Law and California's "Medical Marijuana" Law	Wonderland420	1,534	3	11/09/07 12:31 PM by Cowgold
California to Legalize Weed for Everyone ( 1 2 3 4 all )	veggie	5,354	75	08/05/08 07:36 PM by FurrowedBrow
Chicago Tribune - Legal Marijuana Makes Midwest Debut	Madtowntripper	649	5	03/20/09 02:31 PM by mr.bixby
Why Legalizing Marijuana Makes Sense [TIME] ( 1 2 all )	FurrowedBrow	1,784	21	04/08/09 04:46 PM by MacklinReed
Judge Says It’s "High Time" We Legalized Marijuana [CA]	veggie	982	12	04/27/09 05:16 AM by Learyfan
Michigan to vote on legalizing marijuana for medical use	veggie	1,306	13	04/29/08 01:49 PM by fastfred
Legalizing marijuana in New Jersey	veggie	620	2	03/17/09 11:22 PM by MushroomCrusader

Extra information

You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: veggie
2,351 topic views. 2 members, 30 guests and 11 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic ]

del.icio.us digg Furl MyWeb reddit StumbleUpon