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 EM455
Dominican newbie
 
Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 181
Loc: Santo Domingo, Dominican ...
Last seen: 7 months, 18 days
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 'Psychedelics and their dangers' 
#9862202 - 02/25/09 10:50 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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let's continue over here lol This thread is the continuation of a long conversation we were having in another thread...I'll post the whole conversation so you can understand the following posts and also to make the thread more coherent. sorry for the shitty colors I was just trying to make it more clear and readable.
Mutant:
We are not in the dark as for why these thing happen!
Some people are more sensitive than others, especially in often and high-dose exposure. Some have underlying mental matters. All of us carry psychological loads. Some can handle better a crisis, an epiphany, an new state of being and thinking...
It's nice to hear you're doing better crypto. I hope this doesn't make you repeat past's mistakes....
EM455:
Mutant, I do feel in the dark as you say though cause yeah ''Some people are more sensitive than others, especially in often and high-dose exposure. Some have underlying mental matters. All of us carry psychological loads. Some can handle better a crisis, an epiphany, an new state of being and thinking''
but the big question is : HOW can I as an individual know if I am among the people who can't handle psychedelics?
I've read the phrase '' psychedelics are not for everyone'' here in the shroomery at least a hundred times....but how can I know? everytime something like this happens to someone (like krypto) I get scared about tripping I mean he had tripped many times before and never had a problem....what the hell happened this time? and could it have been avoided?
It makes me so mad that scientists haven't really studied psychedelics in depth yet....I'm so interested in them, I love to trip so much, but at the same time I wouldn't want to compromise my sanity.....I wouldn't want to become mentally sick and need medication cause every single psyquiatric medication sucks and makes you feel even worse and then you can't live without them while they keep rottening your brain
Sorry for the long useless post but I needed to say all this cause it makes me mad and sad I want to live the psychedelic life, and I don't give a shit about not being normal or being ''crazy'' or out of reality...what scares me....is fear itself, irrational paranoid fear and anxiety, panick attacks, depression, stuff like that...feeling pain emotionally. I think that's the only bad thing about mental illness..cause If you're ''crazy'' but you're ok with it, than you're not sick IMO...I'm so glad Krypto is doing so much better, but the fact that it could have been worse bothers me...there's something to be learned for all of us about his experience, but I just can't find exactly what it is. There should be a fucking test you could take to know if it's ok for you to take these drugs xD :p
Sorry for saying all this, I say it because I feel insecure...there are some things I need to figure out about my last trip and about my life per se...but I'll discuss that in another thread....
Krypto, once again I'm glad you're doing ok keep it up man and keep telling us about your experience...we're all learning a lot from it...and we might some day, thanks to people like you, comprehend the real mental dangers of psychedelics and how to avoid them...cause I think they still have a lot to offer for most of us, we just need more info about how they work chemically.
edit: P.S.: I mean what I don't get are not the effects or feelings or anything....what I don't get is how those can stay there after the drug has been metabolized...this is the kind of thing that confuses me.
One last question Krypto, did you sleep well after the ''trip''itself? Because I read of a similar case here on the shroomery and the people of that thread though it was the lack of sleep that caused everything...I don't remember the link though, sorry xD
Mutant:
Well the short answer to you question is that if you are doing many psychedelics and wanna trip often and are also worried about this, then you are a very likely candidate ...
this happens to be a matter I have read and thought a lot about..
I have figured out some harsh way to spot danger-groups / indications
*people with family history of mental problems. that's a known
*panic attacks [not scarce, but persistant] during intoxication or in random points
*cannabis is a good idicator. it can itself induce underlying mental issues especially if overdone and if a person has had problems during his cannabis use is also a warning sign IMO
and besides this,
if you do too much or too often or both, it's pretty obvious and understandable that even if you are the more steady personality you will gradually become 'something' else. Are you really keen on living the psychedelic life? And what life exacly is this?
I suspect only a few people can abuse psychedelics and take it all the way.. Most eventually stop , and few wise choose certain moments in their lives to partake... Some use them along with opiates, creating a astrong addictive scheme of stimulation and sedation... No wise path IMO .. It's all down to what point of biew you're looking it from...
Oh, Swim is a cannabis and alcohol regular
nice to be in the forums
EM455:
Well thanks a lot for your answer too, mutant...By living the psychedelic life I mean enjoying what psychedelics have to offer in a smart and respectful manner, i would never abuse such substances (like doing too much too often). I've only tripped 3 times (i'm not experienced at all but I have read a lot and have studied psychedelics for a good while now). I had planned tripping maximum once a month, but took a several-months break after my last trip cause I haven't been stable enough to trip again. Living the psychedelic life is not only about tripping but also about growing, planting, reading, hearing, sharing and trying to understand how these substances work in general....that's what I meant.
I agree with what you said:
'' have figured out some harsh way to spot danger-groups / indications
*people with family history of mental problems. that's a known
*panic attacks [not scarce, but persistant] during intoxication or in random points
*cannabis is a good idicator. it can itself induce underlying mental issues especially if overdone and if a person has had problems during his cannabis use is also a warning sign IMO''
unfortunately, I think some of those signs are present in my case...I'll tell which ones and why I think that, later on cause I have to go now....anyway thank you both for everything...this is a great thread and I'm learning a lot
EM455:
Retrospect....WOW what a trip man :S Thanks for sharing your experiences and theories (Retrospect, Lobotomix,ReaLighTea).
I still don't think we've found a satisfying explanation though(and we probably won't find any unfortunately), since in your cases, the delusions stopped when the psychedelics wore off, but what causes somebody to stay delusional for days, even weeks after a trip? Will we ever know? It's such an important matter (at least to me) and yet so hard to decipher :S It's just frustrating....Thanks again for all the information you guys have shared....at least I know something now....I will never smoke weed while tripping (I wanted to try that so bad, but I'll try to be strong and don't take that risk :S)
I guess in the end, it all depends on individual susceptibility ? :S
Mutant:
Hey, EM455
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Mutant what did you think about my answer to your last post?
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I was offline having some internet access changes... back now... your answer seems sincere and intelligent...
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I had planned tripping maximum once a month, but took a several-months break after my last trip cause I haven't been stable enough to trip again
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this very quote shows you are self aware , it also brings on the matter of why did you want to trip after all if you were not stable? for kicks?
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Living the psychedelic life is not only about tripping but also about growing, planting, reading, hearing, sharing and trying to understand how these substances work in general....that's what I meant.
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if you have tripped 3 times, maybe it's time to take a break and work on your experiences, read about stuff, etc.... in the bottom line, psychedelics are not for especially meant for euphoriant use IMO, and growing, planting, sharing, reading etc will mainly happen when you're sober
If you think you got some of the warning signs then you should be sensible, careful and moderate with anything you do, IMO
EM455:
Ok sorry for double posting...I just didn't want to mix things up so I answered to Krypto and now I want to answer mutant(who's been really nice to me on this thread )
I'm glad you're back, thanks for saying my answer seemed sincere and intelligent to you.
Excuse my ignorance but you know, english isn't my mother language and all (stupid excuses I know)...being self aware as you say: is it something bad or something good? because in my head it could mean two very different things...if it's bad, I'd appreciate some advice on how to ''fix it''(meaning a further explanation of the issue)...if it's good, then, well, I'm glad xD
quote: ''it also brings on the matter of why did you want to trip after all if you were not stable? for kicks?''
well it's complicated...on one side I didn't want to trip because I didn't feel completely ready....on another side I wanted to trip for many reasons: because I wanted to experience the good times again, I wanted to gain experience, and I felt kinda stupid and weak for not being able to trip(I know much better now)...I also was afraid that if I didn't trip for too long after a bad trip I'd become afraid of tripping...I also was worrying about my mushroom going bad or getting rotten or something because they never got ''cracker dry'' (I hate that expression already xD). I had bought the shrooms and didn't know yet how to store them, the vendor said they would arrive dry to me, and when I saw them they seemed dry and since I was going to trip once a month it seemed ok to just keep them that way because I wouldn't have to store them for a long time. The last reason is that I had a plan (tripping once a month) and I tend to hold on plans sometimes...in my head it was hard to let go on that plan for a while...it's ok now though...I will never plan my trips that way again...just one at a time. My last trip taugh me a whole lot about tripping....I also had planned increasing one gram every trip so I would experience ego loss or at least a level 5 trip and learn something valuable out of it. Now I think I'll have several small trips before every time I increase dosage....anyway I'm a newbie after all xD
quote: ''if you have tripped 3 times, maybe it's time to take a break and work on your experiences, read about stuff, etc.... ''
that's exactly what I'm doing I still need some insight on my last trip I'll try to make a thread about it cause I don't understand what caused it yet :S nor what it meant really....I learned a lot from it but still feel like there's so much more to be learned.
quote:''.... in the bottom line, psychedelics are not for especially meant for euphoriant use IMO, and growing, planting, sharing, reading etc will mainly happen when you're sober ''
I agree
quote: ''If you think you got some of the warning signs then you should be sensible, careful and moderate with anything you do, IMO ''
That's what I've been trying to do since the beggining, being moderate and careful even if I didn't have ''the signs''...I just don't know EXACTLY how to do it yet because I'm new to this but I'm learning more everyday so I should be alright i guess...thanks for such a good advice
The signs I think I have are vague though...there's some mental illness in my family but mostly ancestors of whom I don't know much about and neither does anybody else . I don't know what is relevant and what isn't in terms of tripping and I think every tripper has a couple of mental ill people in their family history(most people are crazy to beggin with)...
I have a bipolar cousin(mother side of the family), my grandfather (father side of the family) killed himself because he thought he was being chased but nobody can prove if it was paranoia or if he was really being chased since he was a journalist and a critic writer under a dictatorship he fought against (he was a spanish exliate under franco's dictatorship and ended up under trujillo's dictatorship in my country xD), His tween sister had dementia when she was old according to some people...my aunt has alzeimer...(still father side of the family)...and my mom told me one of her ancestors was ''crazy'' but nobody knew exactly what he had...that's pretty much it about the family I think....I've talked to my mom (she knows I trip) and we will try to get some psykiatric tests done to me, maybe even genetic blood tests if I can, or mesure my serotonine (and other important neuro-chemicals) levels just to be sure, she's a well-known doctor here and she can get me all that for free as long as it is done in my country (which isn't the most advanced of all )....we take tripping and health in general very seriously I guess xD
Personally, I am sometimes a little obsessive, a little excentric, I've been depressed, i've been suicidal but for other reasons than depression, sometimes even out of curiosity about death, or anger or whatever (when a teenager, but who hasn't anyway? xD)...I was kinda violent when in primary school...I would go from being extremely shy and passive one year and the next year I'd be the ''bully of the primary school'' although I never ever was mean to any kid that hadn't done anything to me first....I spent most of my childhood going from one psycologist to another...and had several tests done...I'll go back to them and ask them what was the problem because even my own mother doesn't know what apparently was wrong with me...and finally I always had problems at school eventhough I had excelent fucking grades (I didn't graduate, long story)oh and yeah I've had two panic attacks and I've been anxious (mostly when i was a kid, then it disappeared then again a month after my last trip, the trip itself is one of the 2 panic attacks I mentioned,) but according to what I've read about panic attack's symptoms, mine were pretty mild...especially the second one after the trip.
About weed, I can say I've only smoked occacionally since I was 14 and never had anxiety or any problem with it...I tolerate it very well and I LOVE IT, it's always a great time even under very stressful situations...i've smoked considerably middle to large doses of it as well...I once ate so much of it (couldn't smoke it because I was in a place where the smell would have been a problem) that I ended up being high for more than 12 hours (ate the stuff, went high, went to sleep, woke up the next morning, still high until the afternoon) and I had to go to school like that! one of my teachers noticed but he didn't say anything cause I said I had a flue so he didn't have proof and a lot of shit happened that day(in another class i sitted in the back of the classroom and we were supposed to write something but I had to pretend because I couldn't read or see a shit in the paper and was afraid the teacher would come take a look as she always did with me since I was the lazy, problem child back then, my two best friends where pretending to call her to come to where I was and laughing their asses off and i was like shit don't do that please xD it wasn't fun but it is now) but I managed to stay calm I guess that is a good sign....
I think I just coverd up all the signs you mentioned! I'm so sorry for talking so much everybody, this is krypto's thread not mine but well :S I just wanted to explain mutant what I was talking about before....It's weird cause in person I would barly say hi to you all (I'm very quiet and shy ) Thanks again for answering Mutant I hope you ain't tired of reading all the shit I wrote.....
peace
Mutant:
EM455, I am always interested to discuss these matters, especially with people who are not biased [pro-psychedelics] or at least with people who do not deny psychedelics dangers...
but hey, I won't spare you with some answers here...
English aint my mother language too. By self-awareness I meant 'knowing yourself' . Still, knowing yourself doesn't mean one won't try to lie to himself and lead him into accepting something his awareness wouldn't let him accept in the first place...
I don't believe your 'signs' are vague. I think they are plenty and quite definate. You said you never abused cannabis. Maybe that's why you didn't ever have any problems... [well that eaten cannabis you said, lasted a bit too long I think , but I don't know much about eating pot]
So you are having second thoughts because your last trip was a bad trip.. You had a panic attack during it.. And you haven't had a panic attack for years? What was the panic about? Did it last all the way? Have you figured out what went wrong?
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That's what I've been trying to do since the beggining, being moderate and careful even if I didn't have ''the signs''...I just don't know EXACTLY how to do it yet because I'm new to this but I'm learning more everyday so I should be alright i guess...thanks for such a good advice
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by being moderate we don't mean trip as you like as long as you have convinced yourself it's OK. Actually it might mean not tripping at all, knowing why and how you will set-up an experience, when/if you decide such a thing, learn to choose your companions for a potential trip, mind the doses etc etc etc... at least IMHO
And man, a trip's price in money is nothing compared to your health. Give away the trip to someone else who will benefit, if you think it's not a good time... Some say 'if in doubt, double the dose'. I say this is bullshit.
I really hope some people might find these thoughts interesting, useful or anything. Feedback is greatly appreciated... Krypto, I hope you don't mind the hijack...
EM455:
Hey mutant as you say, I know that psychedelics have potential danger attatched to them...even if I am pro-psychedelics in a different way (meaning I think psychedelics are good if used properly) I am not biased in any way.
I'm curious, what's your mother language then?
quote: ''So you are having second thoughts because your last trip was a bad trip.. You had a panic attack during it.. And you haven't had a panic attack for years? What was the panic about? Did it last all the way? Have you figured out what went wrong?''
Well I never really had second thoughts per se...I mean since the second I stopped bad-tripping I knew I wanted to trip again but didn't know when....I had never had a panic attack before that trip...and what is weird is that the panic was about nothing specific at first...I haven't figured out what caused it in the first place...I was having a great time and suddenly my mind said ''wow I'm having a bad trip'' out of nowhere and then I started panicking and I didn't know what I was afraid of, until the come down when I was afraid of becoming insane for ever but that thought only appeard near the end of the trip because of all the things that had happened before while I was panicking the hardest for no reason and also because I didn't know if I should trust my own knowledge about shrooms in that moment. The panic lasted almost the whole trip. I have some theories of what could have gone wrong but nothing conclusive :S probably set and setting issues...I though I had the perfect set and setting before tripping though but things didn't turn out as I expected them to.
Maybe I just wasn't ready for that dose, but it doesn't explain to me exactly why I panicked for nothing: I didn't think I was dying, I didn't experience ego loss, I didn't see frightening visuals...only some overwhelming ones but I usually like those and I was liking them in the moment they occured.
quote: '' don't believe your 'signs' are vague. I think they are plenty and quite definate. ''
Do you mean psychedelics are not for me and I should never trip? :S I would be kinda sad about it. but if I found out that it was true without a doubt and that I should never trip I would accept it and would never trip again for sure. That's the major question I have about psychedelics, because everybody keeps saying ''they're not for everyone'' cool, I understand and accept that, but how to know for SURE if I am among the ''not-everyones''? trial and error? like tripping, if I become insane then fine I wasn't meant to trip, if I don't well then I'll just have to wait :p xD? That doesn't sound prudent at all to me that's why i'll try at least to get some tests done before my next trip.
quote: ''knowing why and how you will set-up an experience, when/if you decide such a thing, learn to choose your companions for a potential trip, mind the doses etc etc etc... at least IMHO''
That's what I meant by being moderate too...always precise doses, starting low (I started with a gram or less then a gram of panaelous cyanescens for my first trip)....good set and setting...reading everything about the drug before trying it, having an intention for the trip etc....that's what I was doing...maybe I missed something?
I read the shroomery and erowid and trip reports and vendor advices plus a couple of books for months before my very first trip.
I must admit though, with my third and las trip (the bad one)I took the wrong dosage (meaning not what I had planned), because I took truffles instead of mushrooms and those must be weighted differently: I didn't know that back then so I purchased 30 grams fresh truffles, they got dry, I assumed they then were 3 gram dry truffles(wrong cause truffles have less water % when fresh so they weight more than the same amount of shroom when dried), equivalent to 3 grams dry shrooms.
Simplified, 30 gram fresh truffles don't become 3 gram dry truffles but more cause they barely lose weight by drying.
So I probably ended up eating something close to a double dose of what I had planned (at least according to what I've read here about truffles, after the trip).
quote:''And man, a trip's price in money is nothing compared to your health. Give away the trip to someone else who will benefit, if you think it's not a good time... Some say 'if in doubt, double the dose'. I say this is bullshit. ''
I agree with you 100%
I wasn't worried about the monetary cost of the shrooms but the shrooms themselves...I went through so much to get them, and they were of different substrains, high quality and all, I was sure that even by growing(I have spores, but not vermiculite:( ) or eating local shrooms that grow here, I would never find such fine, perfect shrooms again in my life xD (specially since the ban in the netherlands, my shrooms are from there so it's kinda even mitical to have shrooms from there where I live specially after the ban, it's like they were collectable rarities) it sounds stupid I know but that's how I felt...I've decided that even if I don't ever eat them I'll keep them as a ''souvernir'' xD. I would have given them away though (I did so with some amanitas I had), but there are not so many trippers around my area and the ones who trip don't know shit about shrooms they just buy them fresh(there's a village here near some fields where they sell massive amounts of shrooms) and would think I'm trying to poison them by offering them dried shrooms which they would think are bad or rotten for the way they look.
I have other friends who have never tripped and would love to but they don't know shit about it and I don't like giving shrooms to first timers (I don't like giving any drug except for weed to anybody experienced or not for that matter actually, because I don't want to take responsability for another person's life or health, specially if they haven't took the time to read about the drug which would be hard anyway because most people don't speak english here and all the good info is in english or in other languages than spanish). That amanita gift was of course before my bad trip who taught me how bad things can be when they get bad xD at least I learned something and will never give drugs or entheogens to anybody again unless they've tried them several times before and even then I'd have my doubts.
I do find your thoughts very interesting and useful and think you may have some of the answers I'm looking for as to how to avoid bad outcomes out of tripping. So keep it coming xD and tell me what you think about my case and about krypto's case which has intrigued me a lot!
thanks for everything man
P.S.: this thread seems to talk about the same issues we are addressing here, maybe it's worth a good read. I haven't read it but I'll just put the link around here....at least the title seemed interesting enough to me
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8803974/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1
Mutant::
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I had never had a panic attack before that trip...and what is weird is that the panic was about nothing specific at first...I haven't figured out what caused it in the first place...I was having a great time and suddenly my mind said ''wow I'm having a bad trip'' out of nowhere and then I started panicking and I didn't know what I was afraid of
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IMO thats what you better work out, especially if you intend to trip again some time: what went wrong both in you [f.e. set, why panic?] and the setting , the trigger of the bad trip... you might learn some simple things about your self from that, maybe... or maybe not... some say all trips are usefull etc etc... maybe it's like that, but IMO a bad trip is a 'something went wrong' thing. it's a gain, if you learn more about yourself and set setting , thinking about what things you need to take care next time... So mostly, I think what a bad trip ultimately offers is to grab you from the balls and say: 'this is not candy. plan every time very well before consuming' If you feel fine now, consider youself warned... thing could have been much harder... like it has been in other situations...
having said that, this dose must be quite big.. truffles are more potent I am told...
This is a saying i like regarding people respect , but fits here too : 'Respect is earned, not self-evident' . You can't just say I respect LSD, ok, so lets go eat 6 hits and go on a walk in to town...[ very harsh example] you have to really mean and feel the respect, or else you might learn the hard way.. most take the hard way to learn this, but some are more prone to problems when a 'bad' moment comes ...
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'' don't believe your 'signs' are vague. I think they are plenty and quite definate. ''
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Do you mean psychedelics are not for me and I should never trip? :S I would be kinda sad about it. but if I found out that it was true without a doubt and that I should never trip I would accept it and would never trip again for sure. That's the major question I have about psychedelics, because everybody keeps saying ''they're not for everyone'' cool, I understand and accept that, but how to know for SURE if I am among the ''not-everyones''? trial and error? like tripping, if I become insane then fine I wasn't meant to trip, if I don't well then I'll just have to wait :p xD? That doesn't sound prudent at all to me that's why i'll try at least to get some tests done before my next trip.
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this has to be one of the most sincere discussion I have made on the subject. Thanks for this Most people don't like to discuss such things and even knowledgeable people in communities like this dismiss a lot of dangers, trying to defend psychedelics..
You CANT KNOW FOR SURE. it's not all black and white... it's not a switch, either on or off... we all have issues... little complexes, egoistical shits, jealousy.. shit like this... we have inherited LOTS of stuff from our parents and the enviroment... both 'good' and 'bad'... the 'issues' lie on the 'bad'. But it's up to you to decide... IF you wanna search it, WHAT do you want from your life... You only can ultimately know you and whats 'good' for you.. I can only discuss from my PC, which I very happily do... Greek is my mother language btw.. anyway... noone can do this for you... you have to learn yearself... you're young.. how old are you?? Finish you school/studies, get on with your life.. if you want something euphoric maybe try something else... If you fool around a lot with psychs [or anything from pot to stimulants to opiates, all kind of drugs actually] you might transform a simple issue like mild anxiety into a full-blown anxiety disorder... [just an example]
You have some of what I consider warning signs, this is an issue regardless of psychedelics.. Working with these issues, regardless of psychedelics , again, is an option.. Combining the two is an option too: psychedelic psychanalysis.. but don't think, like many, that it's a proceedure done automatically by the ingestion itslef... shit no... and it's not pleasant either... but not on a bad trip vein... no.. insight , especially psychanalytic, guided or self-done, reveals mostly unpleasant stuff from the past and present, especially if you really have some issues, and that's the point of it... but it's immensly different from the concept of a bad trip...
anyways, regard these comments another persons take, as I do have a psychanalytical approach to the classic psychedelics... not because I have some issues myself... psychanalysis can benefit both the mentally unstable AND the 'healthy' ones... But sure I have felt the euphoria of the psychedelic epiphany...
hey krypto how are you doing man?? I hope everything is fine...
Many might hate me for this, but in studying mental disorders or situaltions in general, we might wanna group them in neuroris and psychosis... there is a large difference between the two groups... psychedelics have proved to be able to help in a lot of the nevrosis situations under guided sessions, but have proved to be more unstable and explosive with psychosis... not saying they can never help, just that it's way more risky, even 'heroic', if you might...
And here I will also say I am not an advocate of big doses, on the contrary... doing large doses is only for people who very well know what they're doing.. and mind you , by big dose I don't mean 6 blotters, or 7 gr of cubensis... way lower also rates as a big dose IMO. Especially for unknown materials and/or firsttimers
I have to admit that my knowledge or personal interest or whatever, anyways, have been more focused on nevrosis and aquirable stuff rather than biological, so I can't really say much for krypto's case, either than hope everything will go fine from now on... But I believe that pot, stimulants or any further psychedelics could and most certainly will make it worse. You are on anti-psychotics? Try to plan further... take up a hobby, an interest, do sports, I don't know what you like... Becoming a normal person or trying to anyway might be a dull situation, but I believe that, in you case it might possibly the best thing you can do...
loggin out, cheers
EM455:
Hey there mutant...I don't know why but I really like your answers you're one of the few people I've met here so far (I mean so far...cause I'm sure there are many others out there I just probably haven't met them here yet or just forgot) that don't just say, ''shrooms are safe that's all you need to know''(of course I don't think anybody has said it exactly like that, it's a harsh example, maybe a parody don't know )
I think everything has pros and cons and you need to study both in depth specially the cons and specially if it's regarding psychedelics and mental health which is just as important as physical health (I'd dare to say even more important).
Anyway I agree with what you said about working with my last trip and figuring out what went wrong. I've tried but I haven't come up with anything conclusive just a lot of different theories that may have made me feel uncomfortable (ie: I ran out of cigarrettes and I am a big smoker specially while tripping or the fact that I messed up with the dose) that kinda of stuff that maybe cumulated and caused the setting and thus the set to change? I don't know, so many things happened that day, I'm just really glad I managed to stay coherent and managed to regain my mind completely after less then 6 hours. The real problems started a month after the trip I don't know if they were related to the trip or not but it's just like I've become afraid of anxiety, but that's getting better with time. It's just like I experienced normal anxiety my whole life like everybody does but I wasn't aware of it, I didn't use to pay attention to the anxiety or mind the anxiety and after the trip it's like a door was opened, like I had met anxiety for the first time (which is impossible since we all feel anxiety one time or another) and thus became forever aware of the existence of that feeling. So everytime I think I might feel anxious, i'll probably get anxious about the anxiety, bassically, I get afraid of fear. I'm working on it though and it's better now, way better than in the beginning anyway. My only real fear now is that I've been changed forever into someone that can not enjoy drugs, or even pot, or any entheogen or psychoactive of any kind :S (I said that because I smoked a little bit of pot yesterday to try, I hadn't smoked in months but I wanted to try and it didn't feel the same way :S it wasn't as enjoyable as before and that worried me a little, but I haven't lost my faith in pot yet since I'm on medication which could have caused this:(melatonine to sleep which I've been abusing taking 25 mg every day when you normally only should take 3 or 5 mg xD and mexazolam a benzo that I started taking when I had the second panic attack, 3 times a day, and it's hard as fuck to quit benzos not because of addiction but because the medical literature says that you have to be really careful or you can get withdrawal symptoms which are really dangerous)and the set and setting were awful for weed, so I'll give it another shot once I quit the pills, and start doing stuff that make me feel good xD
I do respect the psychedelics I don't just say so...and I respect them even more now...everyday a little more since everyday I learn more about them and their possible dangers thanks to this awesome comunity.
I am 19, I'll be 20 in september...what about you how old are you ?
you said (quote): ''You have some of what I consider warning signs, this is an issue regardless of psychedelics.. Working with these issues, regardless of psychedelics , again, is an option.. Combining the two is an option too: psychedelic psychanalysis..''
Do you have any information or any book I could read regarding techniques to achieve this? (I think I already asked that to someone else on this thread but didn't really got an answer)
How do you advice to achieve the resolvement of such issues regardless of psychedelics (without them)?
I think the best way to go would be to work on the issues separetly without psychs at first and then continue with a good technique of trip guideness either trips guided by others or self-guided. Of course a lot should be studied and read and known before trying this. So what do you think? what would you do in my case? do you take psychs although you know the risks ? and which mesures do you take to minimize such risks? besides set, setting, dosage control, trip intention, planning etc...cause I always do those, except that one time when I messed with dosage but that was because I got confused with the damn truffles xD
If I could I would make of all my trips a guided session or at least a session self-guided somehow with an intention of improvement and learning of any kind (even letting go and letting the trip take you where it wants to is a form of conscious guideness IMO (and most of the times requires a lot of effortless effort if you know what I mean)
I'm very interested in the science behind psychedelics, wheter it be aproached from a psycoanalytical(or any acredited psycological school for that matter) or neuro-chemical point of view...I think there is a lot to learn about how the brain and the mind, or the (mind-brain) normally works by taking psychedelics. That's one of the things that attracted me to try psychedelics in the first place. So I think we have at least that in commun.
Mutant:
Maybe we should stop 'hijacking' this thread and create another?? EM455 do you care to open the thread [Maybe name it 'Psychedelics and their dangers'] and do the quoting?? I dunno which is krypto opinion.... it's his thread after all... I don't know weather a mod could do it.. [man this post is huge!]
EM455 you are kind and honest to me.. I appreciate this in a person... Honesty I mean, heh, kindness obviously I appreciate And your posts are not bad at all, on the contrary man, specially with english not being your native language
Well, there are two things to start with...
first of all, what triggered the bad trip - this leads to set and setting issues. I am left with the impression that you haven't fully discriminated/made clear what set and setting is. In a way it's the reality [both individual and general, past and present] in the moment a psychoactive is ingested. Of course the fact that you had no cigarettes to smoke must have played a role! Big mistake! Some people suggest to have sedatives at hand when a situaltion becomes too panicky... I am not exactly for or against this. It's an option. Depends... but anyways, anything can play a role. You can't be cold where you are! - well unless you're a masochist :P ... You have to set it up so as you will feel nice and confortable. One great suggestion is to have nothing to do [obligations etc] the next day of the trip, so you can chill and work it out through the next day. Anyways, ideas, ideas..
set is two things: you, anything within you, any experience you might have had in the past, etc. that is the individual and of course also the state of mind, goals, plans, approach, mood, the time you're ingesting.
setting is everything that surrounds you, the enviroment, the temperature, the music, the wind, the fireplace, the toys or muscial instruments you have brought with you, anything, I really mean anything.And then of course the people we are with! Anything might play a role... When under psychedelics, and we don't realise it from the first experiences, every sense is enhanced.. actually, everything is enhanced... if it happens to be tripping and something really bad happens, no doubt it will affect the trip... but beyond that, anything might and often will affect a trip for more 'sensitive' individuals.
The setting is obviously notably important for some people, I mean for some more than others... I can tell because I am one of them. I want seclusion for my psychedelic session... well, even for my pot, I usually do it in a calm and cozy setting...usually at my home or others... maybe I should also say that, even with pot I am a bit sociophobically affected when I am under cannabis peaks, getting the feeling 'they will understand I have done the no-no' - and thing is I hate pretending I am sober or being anxious whether someone will understand I am stoned - i wanna be as I feel that moment, heh... see in my country pot is still a tabboo at large, anyways, maybe these are my own complexes in there too. I thought I should mention. I used to be quite shy as a teenager, I grew quite social as years went by. But still with pot I don't wanna do in random places and especially random people... In parties and festivals, sure fuck yeah! in the pure nature, while mushroom hunting, fuck yeah! during musical improvisation sessions - HELL yeah! Chilling and talking with friends or other partakers - sure or sitting in fron the pc and wringing these, hehm
Anyway, back to the psychs, if one has a clear, serious plan, and is not going for random recreational kicks, the set and setting begin to merge in some sections like goals, approach
Clearly, there's no other psychoactive class like the so called classic psychedelics that set + setting play such a crucial role.. this is interesting in itself...
second 'the door which maybe opened' , 'fear of fear', anxiety... for this I cannot really say... you say you're on benzos, this shit is short of euphoric as well as sedative, no?? have you had history with other sedative, tranquilizing medication in the past?
well I think there's definate difference between 'normal' anxiety one experiences for a varyiety of reasons, from an exam to a meeting with a lady, and pathological, when someone begins to have anxiety without reason, or with things one wouldn't normally worry about...
Quote:
________________________________________
you said (quote): ''You have some of what I consider warning signs, this is an issue regardless of psychedelics.. Working with these issues, regardless of psychedelics , again, is an option.. Combining the two is an option too: psychedelic psychanalysis..''
Do you have any information or any book I could read regarding techniques to achieve this? (I think I already asked that to someone else on this thread but didn't really got an answer)
How do you advice to achieve the resolvement of such issues regardless of psychedelics (without them)?
I think the best way to go would be to work on the issues separetly without psychs at first and then continue with a good technique of trip guideness either trips guided by others or self-guided. Of course a lot should be studied and read and known before trying this. So what do you think?
________________________________________
the sensible approach is needed here... quit psychs for a while, don't plan... read, so some reading... don't let the fear overwhelm you. Everyone fears fear. The sensible do not ignore the fear, the foolish do. The brave explore and experience it. Why would you have this anxiety? Have you talked about these with your doctor?
I cannot propose a book with some technique, or any specific technique for that matter.. I neither know enough data about you, and you're quite young too, not do I have much 'skills' in directing people into doing things.. Psychanalysis, psychotherapy, are the words I use for exploration of the soul, the history of subject and accusative within the individual. The word psychanalysis comes from 2 greek words, Psyche = soul and analysis = analysis.. how surroundings have affected you.. WHY you're like this... why everysingle one of us is like that , such things. There are many different psychotherapy schools... Phobias, f.e. are considered some of the easist to 'cure' , especially with certain schools, but I don't know anything more.
You ask about me..
I am 29. My first experience with acid was when I was 19 or so.... just like you.. I am not the average person regarding psychoactives.. I am an alcohol and pot regular. But other things, I never felt the urge to abuse or do often ... f.e. I did enjoy speed for a 6 month old period in 2002 , 20 or so ingestions, and a couple more sporadically. I mean, I love stimulants, speed gives me NO sideffects or whatsoever... I enjoyed every single second of me being under the influence, feeling powerfully energetic, social and euphoric... No come downs. But I never abused it. I am that type of guy. I know I will do it again some time, but I am not after it
And I was always was affected easliy by substances, I can tell you that... I mean, I was never a hardhead...
Well my experiences so far with the classic psychs are 12 or so, almost all of them up to 2002 , most when I was 19-21. All acid, except last recent ones, well, one actually, the other I was just low-dose-sitting, doesn't really count...
Well my most recent was my first take with LSA, last summer, HBWR seeds.... A very interesting experience.. much of what I am suggesting here has been affected by it in a way.. I have learnt and cleared out many many things from it.. both directly, short term I mean, but also lots of it are from the things and data I have processed since then.. it's a continuous proceedure.. That how it goes for me and that's how it has always been, actually.. And I have come to believe that it effects you underground without you much noticing it... that's why i believe small doses might do this too..
back to the trip, well, here's an interesting turning point...
it had a negative twist for 30 mis or so [guess what caused this: a wrong-timed single puff from the second joint we did]. The first joint which asked the sitter to make felt very unrecognisable, but actually boosted the comeup after the last vomits, but hey, very strange, within the moment i spontaneously puffed from the second one I knew it was a bad decision... Very strange.... And I tell you I am a pot regular... well, it's a strange story, because I was smoking too much pot that period and also had some occasional pain/annoyance in the chest/heart when smoking too much... well, back to the trip, that crucial drag from the second joint reversed the exploratory euphoria I was in, that moment, into a negative space, where the pain chest also soon came in... a minor puff, I tell you, I didn't even have the time to drag it down!
I should note that the 2nd joint was not my idea, as the first, it was my friend's and sober sitter's idea, he made it as I didn't notice observing plants in close and he called and offered ... Of course I never did a second drag... Anyways, I lied down and worked my way in my mind.. the negativeness faded off within 30 mins, pain left too.. the most interesting parts of my trip are next, and it's more serious, not 'recreationally' euphoric, like the first phase which was interrupted by the negative puff, but also had a euphoric epiphany with it next on... I was lying outside, in that summer night, looking at the great night view of the distant city colours and some tree and plants in the foreground, wounded in blankets to be comfortably warm and soft on the stone bench, and just enjoy being, feeling and finally linking the hug, the birth, the warm water feeling, affectionation.. anyways... you got an idea... It was rewarding overall. Even if the whole preperation and recippe went totally wrong so that I don't exactly know the quantity I took! Both extract and chewing seeds was consumed. [I vomited too early because the -sweet- wine in the preperation was spoilt!! 12 HBWR seeds in the preparation, plus 5 chewed latr on... go figure :P]
The traditional setting maybe has some to say about this... I am convinced LSA acids have great potential in psychanalysis . Recently a buddy of mine had his first experience with a classic psychedelic, and it worked very well too, psychanalytically speaking... he never vomited, strangely, as he has a weak stromach, and came up to be euphoric and enjoying himself too.. while sitting beside the fireplace... I played the slave heh, actually I am never so good with people, I mean I was the perfect sitter... I guess the reason was I knew him, I knew it was a significant moment for him, and I tried to help him as much as I could not to distract himself and to keep him happy and carry on his experiment... I brought him whatever he needed , a made a fire in the fireplace for him even though it was a fine warm summer night, and I think I was a good 'psychanalysist' too.. I tried to speak as little as I could, as he was becoming enthusiastic and felling and saying stuff by himself, feeling clues of what needed to be learnt... I was discreet enough to only push in certain moments I thought right... when he sometimes stopped his 'rambling'. Btw, I had only partaked 91 seeds self grown Ipomoea heavenly blue seeds, to just get a tiny taste of the space , maybe be more tuned-in...
In short, I did some acid when I was 19-21, and just recently, after I have become a mushroom hunter [edibles] and very interested in nature for some 5 years now, these last 2 years I have come back to this chapter of my life, and I am growing some of the most notorius ethnobotanicals and actually seeing it more of a personal study and relationship with my plants and understanding nature and stuff, heh.. I am an egocentrical son of a bitch
Quote:
________________________________________
do you take psychs although you know the risks ?
________________________________________
So no, I don't do psychs. It's special moments for me which I choose, and after all these years, I know it's gonna be done ONLY when everything is how I want to, and there's a 'plan' and preparation. I have many experiments in my mind, some involving of course more recreational, or creational value, including percussions and instruments, music jamming and improvizing, or LSA ingestion in warm water, ideally a sensory deprivation tank + more ideas...
I have also experimented a lot with amanita muscaria, and also a bit with Salvia divinorum... the so called, dissociatives... different spaces, different issues... I love amanitas by the way... I believe there are people who are more 'compatible' [for lack of better word] with certain substances. Clearly there are people who can ingest massive amount of psychedelics and other substances and stay relatively sane and functionable.. I am sure I was going to be nuts if I did this... I am a more rational type of guy... Why the fuck would one wanna do , f.e. with mushrooms, which I haven't done yet, 7 grams instead of 3 grams, if 3 grams provide a strong experience?? Of course it's up to the individual to decide, but heck, I don't understand all this, maybe because , to me the classic psychedelics are actually like a fascinating tool, rather than a fetish, a religion, or a preferance. Some people who do it frequently develop some kind of tolerance and their upping their doses to insane numbers! That's nuts! People in various forums mention 6 tabs of acid like it's a couple of beer for antichrist's sake!
And I think I might be more compatible with dissociative 'space' , as they have been 'friendlier' with me.. But after all these years, I know that even if some somewhat random and lightearted acid trips of my young years have been perfect and euphoric, I have understood the importance of the set and setting of classic psychs. Because I had 2 bad trips too.. heh... In other times, the wrong stuff happened while tripping, all kinds of annoying , stupid stuff and I was smiling all around... you never know what's in those tabs anyway.. the only measure is if some friend has tried from the same batch...
As for frequency of use, I don't understand people who wanna do it all the time.. I don't.. I don't need to escape from reality.. well, some might turn that back on me with me cannabis and alcohol use, but, OK, noones perfect.. still my intellect and mental stabilty is fine after some 10 years of use and abuse...
Some time I did speed 2 days in arow, because there was a good techno party that second day.. it wasn't the same... tireness and mental fog accumulates... it's natural... it's the same with acid.. if you abuse it , it will eventually lose the shine and greatness of the first times. It's a marvellus experience, unique. Unique... Once or twice in a year, if at all, like few sensible people suggest... Psychedelics can be like all other substances of abuse, people taking them for kicks, to escape reality , anything. Belief or spirituality are not so good excuses for the exaggeration, if you ask me. I believe psychedelics and especailly hard use can have a toll on the mind, and it's up to the individual, the experiences and other parameters to make it something great and useful, or something problematic.
now who's writing totally impossible, off-topic, stupid posts? huh?? :P Please someone tranfer these somewhere else??
I think that's it I hope I didn't miss anything....after that I just answered in this same thread  cheers
Edited by EM455 (02/26/09 11:03 AM)
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Angel_Above
Entheogen User
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 4,698
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
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Re: 'Psychedelics and their dangers' [Re: EM455]
#9862219 - 02/25/09 10:54 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, the most obvious, people develop disorders liek schizophrenia through use of psychedelics.
Also, overuse can make sober life extremely difficult, and can also lead to the development of disorders.
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EM455
Dominican newbie
Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 181
Loc: Santo Domingo, Dominican ...
Last seen: 7 months, 18 days
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Re: 'Psychedelics and their dangers' [Re: Angel_Above]
#9862241 - 02/25/09 10:58 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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This is the last post of mutant in another thread to which I will answer shortly
Maybe we should stop 'hijacking' this thread and create another?? EM455 do you care to open the thread [Maybe name it 'Psychedelics and their dangers'] and do the quoting?? I dunno which is krypto opinion.... it's his thread after all... I don't know weather a mod could do it.. [man this post is huge!]
EM455 you are kind and honest to me.. I appreciate this in a person... Honesty I mean, heh, kindness obviously I appreciate And your posts are not bad at all, on the contrary man, specially with english not being your native language
Well, there are two things to start with...
first of all, what triggered the bad trip - this leads to set and setting issues. I am left with the impression that you haven't fully discriminated/made clear what set and setting is. In a way it's the reality [both individual and general, past and present] in the moment a psychoactive is ingested. Of course the fact that you had no cigarettes to smoke must have played a role! Big mistake! Some people suggest to have sedatives at hand when a situaltion becomes too panicky... I am not exactly for or against this. It's an option. Depends... but anyways, anything can play a role. You can't be cold where you are! - well unless you're a masochist :P ... You have to set it up so as you will feel nice and confortable. One great suggestion is to have nothing to do [obligations etc] the next day of the trip, so you can chill and work it out through the next day. Anyways, ideas, ideas..
set is two things: you, anything within you, any experience you might have had in the past, etc. that is the individual and of course also the state of mind, goals, plans, approach, mood, the time you're ingesting.
setting is everything that surrounds you, the enviroment, the temperature, the music, the wind, the fireplace, the toys or muscial instruments you have brought with you, anything, I really mean anything.And then of course the people we are with! Anything might play a role... When under psychedelics, and we don't realise it from the first experiences, every sense is enhanced.. actually, everything is enhanced... if it happens to be tripping and something really bad happens, no doubt it will affect the trip... but beyond that, anything might and often will affect a trip for more 'sensitive' individuals.
The setting is obviously notably important for some people, I mean for some more than others... I can tell because I am one of them. I want seclusion for my psychedelic session... well, even for my pot, I usually do it in a calm and cozy setting...usually at my home or others... maybe I should also say that, even with pot I am a bit sociophobically affected when I am under cannabis peaks, getting the feeling 'they will understand I have done the no-no' - and thing is I hate pretending I am sober or being anxious whether someone will understand I am stoned - i wanna be as I feel that moment, heh... see in my country pot is still a tabboo at large, anyways, maybe these are my own complexes in there too. I thought I should mention. I used to be quite shy as a teenager, I grew quite social as years went by. But still with pot I don't wanna do in random places and especially random people... In parties and festivals, sure fuck yeah! in the pure nature, while mushroom hunting, fuck yeah! during musical improvisation sessions - HELL yeah! Chilling and talking with friends or other partakers - sure or sitting in fron the pc and wringing these, hehm
Anyway, back to the psychs, if one has a clear, serious plan, and is not going for random recreational kicks, the set and setting begin to merge in some sections like goals, approach
Clearly, there's no other psychoactive class like the so called classic psychedelics that set setting play such a crucial role.. this is interesting in itself...
second 'the door which maybe opened' , 'fear of fear', anxiety... for this I cannot really say... you say you're on benzos, this shit is short of euphoric as well as sedative, no?? have you had history with other sedative, tranquilizing medication in the past?
well I think there's definate difference between 'normal' anxiety one experiences for a varyiety of reasons, from an exam to a meeting with a lady, and pathological, when someone begins to have anxiety without reason, or with things one wouldn't normally worry about...
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you said (quote): ''You have some of what I consider warning signs, this is an issue regardless of psychedelics.. Working with these issues, regardless of psychedelics , again, is an option.. Combining the two is an option too: psychedelic psychanalysis..''
Do you have any information or any book I could read regarding techniques to achieve this? (I think I already asked that to someone else on this thread but didn't really got an answer)
How do you advice to achieve the resolvement of such issues regardless of psychedelics (without them)?
I think the best way to go would be to work on the issues separetly without psychs at first and then continue with a good technique of trip guideness either trips guided by others or self-guided. Of course a lot should be studied and read and known before trying this. So what do you think?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the sensible approach is needed here... quit psychs for a while, don't plan... read, so some reading... don't let the fear overwhelm you. Everyone fears fear. The sensible do not ignore the fear, the foolish do. The brave explore and experience it. Why would you have this anxiety? Have you talked about these with your doctor?
I cannot propose a book with some technique, or any specific technique for that matter.. I neither know enough data about you, and you're quite young too, not do I have much 'skills' in directing people into doing things.. Psychanalysis, psychotherapy, are the words I use for exploration of the soul, the history of subject and accusative within the individual. The word psychanalysis comes from 2 greek words, Psyche = soul and analysis = analysis.. how surroundings have affected you.. WHY you're like this... why everysingle one of us is like that , such things. There are many different psychotherapy schools... Phobias, f.e. are considered some of the easist to 'cure' , especially with certain schools, but I don't know anything more.
You ask about me..
I am 29. My first experience with acid was when I was 19 or so.... just like you.. I am not the average person regarding psychoactives.. I am an alcohol and pot regular. But other things, I never felt the urge to abuse or do often ... f.e. I did enjoy speed for a 6 month old period in 2002 , 20 or so ingestions, and a couple more sporadically. I mean, I love stimulants, speed gives me NO sideffects or whatsoever... I enjoyed every single second of me being under the influence, feeling powerfully energetic, social and euphoric... No come downs. But I never abused it. I am that type of guy. I know I will do it again some time, but I am not after it
And I was always was affected easliy by substances, I can tell you that... I mean, I was never a hardhead...
Well my experiences so far with the classic psychs are 12 or so, almost all of them up to 2002 , most when I was 19-21. All acid, except last recent ones, well, one actually, the other I was just low-dose-sitting, doesn't really count...
Well my most recent was my first take with LSA, last summer, HBWR seeds.... A very interesting experience.. much of what I am suggesting here has been affected by it in a way.. I have learnt and cleared out many many things from it.. both directly, short term I mean, but also lots of it are from the things and data I have processed since then.. it's a continuous proceedure.. That how it goes for me and that's how it has always been, actually.. And I have come to believe that it effects you underground without you much noticing it... that's why i believe small doses might do this too..
back to the trip, well, here's an interesting turning point...
it had a negative twist for 30 mis or so [guess what caused this: a wrong-timed single puff from the second joint we did]. The first joint which asked the sitter to make felt very unrecognisable, but actually boosted the comeup after the last vomits, but hey, very strange, within the moment i spontaneously puffed from the second one I knew it was a bad decision... Very strange.... And I tell you I am a pot regular... well, it's a strange story, because I was smoking too much pot that period and also had some occasional pain/annoyance in the chest/heart when smoking too much... well, back to the trip, that crucial drag from the second joint reversed the exploratory euphoria I was in, that moment, into a negative space, where the pain chest also soon came in... a minor puff, I tell you, I didn't even have the time to drag it down!
I should note that the 2nd joint was not my idea, as the first, it was my friend's and sober sitter's idea, he made it as I didn't notice observing plants in close and he called and offered ... Of course I never did a second drag... Anyways, I lied down and worked my way in my mind.. the negativeness faded off within 30 mins, pain left too.. the most interesting parts of my trip are next, and it's more serious, not 'recreationally' euphoric, like the first phase which was interrupted by the negative puff, but also had a euphoric epiphany with it next on... I was lying outside, in that summer night, looking at the great night view of the distant city colours and some tree and plants in the foreground, wounded in blankets to be comfortably warm and soft on the stone bench, and just enjoy being, feeling and finally linking the hug, the birth, the warm water feeling, affectionation.. anyways... you got an idea... It was rewarding overall. Even if the whole preperation and recippe went totally wrong so that I don't exactly know the quantity I took! Both extract and chewing seeds was consumed. [I vomited too early because the -sweet- wine in the preperation was spoilt!! 12 HBWR seeds in the preparation, plus 5 chewed latr on... go figure :P]
The traditional setting maybe has some to say about this... I am convinced LSA acids have great potential in psychanalysis . Recently a buddy of mine had his first experience with a classic psychedelic, and it worked very well too, psychanalytically speaking... he never vomited, strangely, as he has a weak stromach, and came up to be euphoric and enjoying himself too.. while sitting beside the fireplace... I played the slave heh, actually I am never so good with people, I mean I was the perfect sitter... I guess the reason was I knew him, I knew it was a significant moment for him, and I tried to help him as much as I could not to distract himself and to keep him happy and carry on his experiment... I brought him whatever he needed , a made a fire in the fireplace for him even though it was a fine warm summer night, and I think I was a good 'psychanalysist' too.. I tried to speak as little as I could, as he was becoming enthusiastic and felling and saying stuff by himself, feeling clues of what needed to be learnt... I was discreet enough to only push in certain moments I thought right... when he sometimes stopped his 'rambling'. Btw, I had only partaked 91 seeds self grown Ipomoea heavenly blue seeds, to just get a tiny taste of the space , maybe be more tuned-in...
In short, I did some acid when I was 19-21, and just recently, after I have become a mushroom hunter [edibles] and very interested in nature for some 5 years now, these last 2 years I have come back to this chapter of my life, and I am growing some of the most notorius ethnobotanicals and actually seeing it more of a personal study and relationship with my plants and understanding nature and stuff, heh.. I am an egocentrical son of a bitch
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
do you take psychs although you know the risks ?
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So no, I don't do psychs. It's special moments for me which I choose, and after all these years, I know it's gonna be done ONLY when everything is how I want to, and there's a 'plan' and preparation. I have many experiments in my mind, some involving of course more recreational, or creational value, including percussions and instruments, music jamming and improvizing, or LSA ingestion in warm water, ideally a sensory deprivation tank more ideas...
I have also experimented a lot with amanita muscaria, and also a bit with Salvia divinorum... the so called, dissociatives... different spaces, different issues... I love amanitas by the way... I believe there are people who are more 'compatible' [for lack of better word] with certain substances. Clearly there are people who can ingest massive amount of psychedelics and other substances and stay relatively sane and functionable.. I am sure I was going to be nuts if I did this... I am a more rational type of guy... Why the fuck would one wanna do , f.e. with mushrooms, which I haven't done yet, 7 grams instead of 3 grams, if 3 grams provide a strong experience?? Of course it's up to the individual to decide, but heck, I don't understand all this, maybe because , to me the classic psychedelics are actually like a fascinating tool, rather than a fetish, a religion, or a preferance. Some people who do it frequently develop some kind of tolerance and their upping their doses to insane numbers! That's nuts! People in various forums mention 6 tabs of acid like it's a couple of beer for antichrist's sake!
And I think I might be more compatible with dissociative 'space' , as they have been 'friendlier' with me.. But after all these years, I know that even if some somewhat random and lightearted acid trips of my young years have been perfect and euphoric, I have understood the importance of the set and setting of classic psychs. Because I had 2 bad trips too.. heh... In other times, the wrong stuff happened while tripping, all kinds of annoying , stupid stuff and I was smiling all around... you never know what's in those tabs anyway.. the only measure is if some friend has tried from the same batch...
As for frequency of use, I don't understand people who wanna do it all the time.. I don't.. I don't need to escape from reality.. well, some might turn that back on me with me cannabis and alcohol use, but, OK, noones perfect.. still my intellect and mental stabilty is fine after some 10 years of use and abuse...
Some time I did speed 2 days in arow, because there was a good techno party that second day.. it wasn't the same... tireness and mental fog accumulates... it's natural... it's the same with acid.. if you abuse it , it will eventually lose the shine and greatness of the first times. It's a marvellus experience, unique. Unique... Once or twice in a year, if at all, like few sensible people suggest... Psychedelics can be like all other substances of abuse, people taking them for kicks, to escape reality , anything. Belief or spirituality are not so good excuses for the exaggeration, if you ask me. I believe psychedelics and especailly hard use can have a toll on the mind, and it's up to the individual, the experiences and other parameters to make it something great and useful, or something problematic.
now who's writing totally impossible, off-topic, stupid posts? huh?? :P Please someone tranfer these somewhere else??
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EM455
Dominican newbie
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Loc: Santo Domingo, Dominican ...
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Re: 'Psychedelics and their dangers' *DELETED* [Re: EM455]
#9862242 - 02/25/09 10:58 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by EM455Reason for deletion: double post, thanks for noticing and I'm sorry xD
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EM455
Dominican newbie
Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 181
Loc: Santo Domingo, Dominican ...
Last seen: 7 months, 18 days
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Re: 'Psychedelics and their dangers' [Re: EM455]
#9862257 - 02/25/09 11:01 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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thanks for answering angel_above...those are the danger's we've been talking about and trying to figure out how to avoid them. How do you personally think these dangers manifest themselves and how do you think we can prevent them?
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Innoculus
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Re: 'Psychedelics and their dangers' [Re: EM455]
#9862258 - 02/25/09 11:02 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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What a double post.
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Angel_Above
Entheogen User
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Re: 'Psychedelics and their dangers' [Re: EM455]
#9862271 - 02/25/09 11:04 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
EM455 said:
thanks for answering angel_above...those are the danger's we've been talking about and trying to figure out how to avoid them. How do you personally think these dangers manifest themselves and how do you think we can prevent them?
They manifest themselves through genetics.. if someone in your family was a schizo, it is more likely that you will become one. The argument against this, is that psychedelics will only bring out what will eventually develop as a disorder... there's no real way to prevent them.
Not everyone should use psychedelics. Some really shouldn't.
While there is no way to prevent it, there is much to learn for those of us who don't think they can develop such disorders. I come from a depressive family, but nothing has happened yet.
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 Cognitive_Shift
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Loc: OhighO 
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Re: 'Psychedelics and their dangers' [Re: Angel_Above]
#9862365 - 02/25/09 11:21 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Physiologically vasoconstriction with some psychedelics like ergolines. Psychologically psychedelics rarely but can bring out mental disorders like schizophrenia, and also rarely cause hppd. I myself however have put my mind through copious amounts of psychedelics, coming out from them with a better understanding of my self and the universe. Nothing but positive here!
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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Innoculus
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I've done stupid shit on acid but I've never lost my mind. I'm more careful now.
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Cognitive_Shift
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Registered: 12/11/07
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People underestimate the power of psychedelics. People go into the situation thinking its "just a drug to see shit" they don't take into consideration that while under the influence of psychedelic drugs you are clinically insane. You undergo a state of madness. And people that are not very stable do not handle having temporary psychosis very well. People that are not stable should not take psychedelics. PERIOD.
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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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EM455
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Great answer Cognitive_Shift I wonder though, what do you consider ''stable''? aren't we all somehow unstable people in one moment or another?
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Innoculus
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Re: 'Psychedelics and their dangers' [Re: EM455]
#9862449 - 02/25/09 11:33 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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... I'm pretty stable all the time. Unless I'm really really REALLY fucking mad. Which takes a LOT of bullshit on other peoples part. Crazy is a little contagious but for the most part I'm stable as can be.
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: 'Psychedelics and their dangers' [Re: EM455]
#9862478 - 02/25/09 11:36 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah everyone is unstable from moment to moment. Everyone gets sad, happy, angry so forth and so on. But people that are depressed or display schizophrenic tendencies are not stable people. And im talking about people that are chronically (clinically) depressed. People going through stressful times or transitions in their life are much less stable than people who are not. People that are not mentally stable could have profound experiences that they either don't want or are not mentally strong enough to embrace and integrate into sobriety.
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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Innoculus
The Wind Fish
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Doesn't that seem so unfair? You just get thrown into this world with a crappy setup and can't really do anything about it. I mean... People tell me I'm pretty emotionally sturdy a lot and I can hear a sort of jealousy in it, like not everyone who wants to be strong can be strong. I either.... just don't understand that or can't grasp it. I've always been sure I could be exactly who I want, and it's worked for me.
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EM455
Dominican newbie
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Re: 'Psychedelics and their dangers' [Re: EM455]
#9863540 - 02/25/09 01:59 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok so answering to mutant now (the main reason why I created this thread in the first place xD)
First of all thanks a lot for saying I'm honest and kind, I actually think the same way about you and I too appreciate such qualities in a person.
Thanks for the explanation in depth of set and setting, you have confirmed what I already though they were, and I think your examples will help me while planning a trip in the future.
About the cigarrettes I ran out of cigs before panicking, I had another box in the room next to where I was but I didn't really want to move so I decided I'd try to enjoy the trip withouth the smoke and if at any given moment I craved the cigs a lot I would go for them. The trip continued to go well until it became a bad trip...when I realized I was probably having a bad trip I turned on the tv trying to distract myself from my own thoughts but it didn't help so I pushed this button in the remote control which displays a clock with the current time on the tv screen...I stared at it trying to calculate how much time had passed since I ingested, or how much time was left for the effects to pass but I got confused and then once again another crazy sentence came to my mind out of nowhere : ''time doesn't exist'' I didn't even know what it meant but I started to freak out even more and got up (I was in bed, in my mother's room) and I started walking all over the place in circles very FAST, trying to think what to do now? and trying to figure out why I was feeling that way for no reason.
After that my mom came in we both got out of the room and started searching the net while I was hyperventilating, cold, sweating and shit like that. Anyway a lot of things happened after that (I should probably write a detailed trip report so you can understand better what happened? maybe you'll see things I haven't seen yet :S) The thing is I now had a brand new box of cigarrettes but I was debating with myself wether nicotine would make things worse or better. From one side I thought that it could calm me down a bit as it always does and I really wanted a smoke by then but from another side I was thinking that maybe adding more ''drugs'' to the mix would make me feel worse, specially something stimulant that makes your heart beat faster as nicotine. I spent like 2 hours with a cig in my hand I would put it on my lips and then put it away while saying to myself ''you'll smoke it when you're ready to, don't worry about it'' lol it is actually fun from an outsider's view. Anyway I never really know when I'm running out of cigs xD.
You seem to be pretty experienced with psychedelics at least a lot more than I am...I think your experiences are very interesting and I too like to be alone while I trip or smoke....I don't mind being with a couple of close friends to share the experience with, but I've never tripped with other people yet, I have smoked a lot with friends though and it's very fun.
I love stimulants too but I don't like to take them in regular basis....the only regular thing I'd do is smoking tobacco. I quit alcool a while ago because it gave me a lot a trouble in the past (I abused it too much and there are so much better things out there anyway) I tried amanitas but apparently they weren't strong, so since I wanted to be prudent I started low (5 grams) and absolutely nothing happened so I ended up giving the rest away because I started to get some kind of bad vibe from them (I don't really believe in ''vibes'' but it's the best expression I found to explain what I mean). So the only dissociative I've done is nitrous which was great...I also took a delirant by accident in my early teenage years...I've done coke, crack(only once), inhalants(cement only once), weed, ecstasy, and some other stuff I don't remember....but never on regular basis. Never had a problem with any of them, only with alcool. I have some amanita extract and some salvia extract waiting for me to try them for the first time but I won't cause I'm not ready for that yet.
quote: second 'the door which maybe opened' , 'fear of fear', anxiety... for this I cannot really say... you say you're on benzos, this shit is short of euphoric as well as sedative, no?? have you had history with other sedative, tranquilizing medication in the past?
The benzos (mexazolam) I've been taking were some kind of '' preventive self-medication'' I have no history of other medication of the sort in the past...except maybe some pills I used to take to sleep (there was a time when I tried almost every sleeping pill out there and I'm sure some of them were tranquilizers, sedatives, and even benzos because I remember one night I couldn't sleep my mom gave me the same mexazolam pill I now take). I started the benzos a month after the trip when I got anxious for the second time. I got scared that this kind of shit would keep happening to me so I decided I'd take an ansiolitic treatment)
quote: I neither know enough data about you
You can ask whatever you want in order to get data about me xD
quote:
quit psychs for a while, don't plan... read, so some reading... don't let the fear overwhelm you. Everyone fears fear. The sensible do not ignore the fear, the foolish do. The brave explore and experience it. Why would you have this anxiety? Have you talked about these with your doctor?
I already quit psychs since my last trip which was october the 19th so I've been clean of ALL drugs (except for tobacco the weed I smoked on monday and the benzos I've been taking)for about 4 months now. I'll try to stay psychs free for at least a year but I don't promise I won't do other drugs until then, like stimulants, ecstasy or weed :P (I have some parties already planned for the summer and since I don't drink I wouldn't want to party sober lol)
About reading I've read a lot already...I'm waiting for James kent to finish his book ''psychedelic's information theory'' the book is available online and in my humble opinion it is an excellent book, you probably have read it too but if you haven't I really recomend it, I'll pass the link to you later if you want me to. The only problem is the book isn't finished....the chapter's titles appear showing how the rest of the book will be structured but most of the book hasn't been written yet  .
What would you personally recomend me to read?
I'm really interested in what psycologists, psyquiatrists and neurologists have to say about psychedelics effects on the mind and brain...and I believe some scientist out there must have the answer on how to use psychedelics without risking anything. But any book about psycopharmacology or plain neuro-chemestry will do the trick.
Actually I don't have a doctor because I rarely get sick...My mother is a doctor though so she treats any small thing I may have in a given moment (allergic reaction to dust, a flue, etc). The only real psycological issue I've had it's probably some mild depression, I never felt depressed but some of the other symptomps were present so I figured maybe I have...I've read about it, apparently you don't have to feel depressed to be depressed or so I read (something along those lines), I've always been kinda weird, and very non-constant...I would for exemple start going to a guitar lesson then quit, then go back and then quit again; I've never been able to achieve stuff that require effort no matter how hard I wanted to and sometimes I felt like I couldn't control my mind, like some part of my mind REALLY wanted me to do something, but my mind and body just wouldn't do it (like doing homework for exemple)It's like I planned to do something and I knew I wanted to do it but didn't for no reason although there was a time when I felt tired so that was my excuse not to do certain things. That's how I kinda ruined my education eventhough I always had the best grades of the whole class, they made me fail a grade because I didn't do a single homework during the whole year so I decided it wasn't fair so I went home with the idea of doing the last two years as a home-self-schooled kid or something but of course I didn't open a single book as always so I went to the exam not knowing shit about what I would be asked to do (it's called the Baccalaureat since I was in a french private school). I hadn't slept for days cause I was stressed so I was kinda high and well I didn't pass it (I lacked one single point to have the diploma lol) but well I didn't want to go to college anyway I kinda wanna be an artist but I can't manage to even start to do that either (used to have inspiration, which i no longer have) I'll always miss biology,physics and chemestry though cause that was my other dream, being some kind of scientist xD I've always been divided between those two worlds, science and art, being social or being intellectual, being this or that... I always seemed to have two sides but I always managed to balance the two which I used to consider a bad thing because I've never liked middles, or gray areas, but now I am only one at last xD those days are far behind me now....I don't know if any of that's relevant or a symptom of some disorder, I'm just saying all the things that I consider could be wrong with my mind, and most of those things happened in the past. One last thing is that I have a weird kinda phobia about my mom dying since I was a toddler. Everytime my mom is late or doesn't pick up her cellphone or something I start wondering if something awful happened to her, I actually see it in my mind, I see her dead and shit and it freaks me out...I worry a lot about her health eventhough she's the healthier younger-looking woman of her age (or even of any age) that i've seen in my life. She's the only thing I have, and the only thing I'm really attached to...we have a wonderful relationship and we love each other so so damn much, and we depend on each other a lot too...we're like a dream team, so I suffer a lot since I was a little girl because I've always feared losing my mother, the most and only important person in my life.I mean you'd have to be that woman's son/daughter to understand...she's without any doubt the BEST mother in the whole world, and I always make sure she knows that and I'm always greatful for having her. But I'm learning little by little to live in the present and don't worry about such things. That never bothered me a lot though only when she was late or something...but then I realized that she was soon turning 60 in about 5 years which would officially make of her an ''old person'' and that thought kinda bothered me one night and started thinking about her death and my life without her and got sad and then had my second panick attack(at least that time there was a clear reason for the anxiety so I didn't worry about becoming insane this time, but my anxiety fed itself since I interpreted my anxiety as I sign that something awful would happen and that my mom wouldn't last longer...I interpreted it as a ''presentment'' and that's when I decided I'd start taking the benzos. I'm much much better now about that issue though....that's pretty much it...I am also kinda obsessive sometimes (for example listening to the same song over and over again on repeat for a week or 2 the whole day and the whole night cause sometimes I sleep with my headphones on)
I know you're probably thinking all those things don't make me a good candidate for tripping but I want to trip so bad xD at least once every few years or whatever...Once I was talking to a friend, and I told her I wanted to clean my mind, I wanted to change and get as well as a person can get so I could trip safely to which she replied in awe, that she though people did drugs because they weren't ok, not the other way around.....''so you wanna be ok so you can do drugs?'' xD it was a funny conversation....she's done lots of drugs but she wants me to believe she's anti drugs and stuff xD or maybe she has really become anti drugs I don't know.....
Anyway I'm saying all this because If I'm not a good candidate for tripping, then I'd like to know how to become one...I may have some issues, but I don't think I have a real mental illness going on...just the kind of issues we all go through....I just want to have that option (cause honestly, today for exemple, I couldn't care less about tripping, my interests change really fast and then come back and shift again), but I'd still like to have that option of self-exploration...It is not that i want to trip, it is that I want to know that I can trip(safely) if I want to.
well I know there are a lot of other things I wanted to discuss with you about that last post but I kinda forgot, I got a little lost in it and answered in desorder lol. I agree with everything you said so far though at least I remember that. Anyway thanks a lot for sharing your experience and for answering and by the way your post may have been off-topic back there (at the other thread) but it sure wasn't stupid nor totally impossible lol...at least not more than this one I'm sending right now
peace
Edited by EM455 (02/25/09 02:35 PM)
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EM455
Dominican newbie
Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 181
Loc: Santo Domingo, Dominican ...
Last seen: 7 months, 18 days
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Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said:
Yeah everyone is unstable from moment to moment. Everyone gets sad, happy, angry so forth and so on. But people that are depressed or display schizophrenic tendencies are not stable people. And im talking about people that are chronically (clinically) depressed. People going through stressful times or transitions in their life are much less stable than people who are not. People that are not mentally stable could have profound experiences that they either don't want or are not mentally strong enough to embrace and integrate into sobriety.
greatly put...I agree with you...I guess I'm going through some kind of transition right now and it was exactly when that transition beggan that I started tripping...tripped 3 times 2 good, one ''bad'' (though I learned a lot from it). Maybe I need to do some normal grounding activity in order to break through this transition....
Do you mind if I ask,
How do you know if your are chronically(clinically) depressed?
Because I've read you don't necessarely have to feel depressed to have depression :S so I'm confused now xD
How do you know if you have schizophrenic tendencies ? and what are those exactly?
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Cognitive_Shift
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Loc: OhighO
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Re: 'Psychedelics and their dangers' [Re: EM455]
#9863647 - 02/25/09 02:12 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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How do you know your depressed?
* difficulty concentrating, remembering details, and making decisions
* fatigue and decreased energy
* feelings of guilt, worthlessness, and/or helplessness
* feelings of hopelessness and/or pessimism
* insomnia, early-morning wakefulness, or excessive sleeping
* irritability, restlessness
* loss of interest in activities or hobbies once pleasurable, including sex
* overeating or appetite loss
* persistent aches or pains, headaches, cramps, or digestive problems that do not ease even with treatment
* persistent sad, anxious, or "empty" feelings
* thoughts of suicide, suicide attempts
Schizophrenic tendencies:
* Social withdrawal
* Hostility or suspiciousness
* Deterioration of personal hygiene
* Flat, expressionless gaze
* Inability to cry or express joy
* Inappropriate laughter or crying
* Depression
* Oversleeping or insomnia
* Odd or irrational statements
* Forgetful; unable to concentrate
* Extreme reaction to criticism
* Strange use of words or way of speaking
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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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EM455
Dominican newbie
Registered: 08/29/08
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Loc: Santo Domingo, Dominican ...
Last seen: 7 months, 18 days
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wow thanks a lot for that list...really helpful at least for me....really thank you!
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Cognitive_Shift
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Registered: 12/11/07
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Loc: OhighO
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Re: 'Psychedelics and their dangers' [Re: EM455]
#9863843 - 02/25/09 02:40 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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No problem
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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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mutant
Cynic
Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 141
Last seen: 8 days, 15 hours
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Well the discussion began here , I might quote some of that here.
Quote:
I am also kinda obsessive sometimes (for example listening to the same song over and over again on repeat for a week or 2 the whole day and the whole night cause sometimes I sleep with my headphones on)
LOL, I used to do the same only with normal speakers in my room when I was younger..it rules, if you're stuck with a song you like, but it eventually makes you get bored of the song ..
Well you're a she, heh, it might be different.... I thought you were a guy.. well you've done a lot of drugs for you time, girl, I can tell you that... Thanks for opening up your soul, it takes a brave person to do what you did
Anywyas, I am not sure at all if benzos are good for you, especially self-medicated... what you gonna do when you quit it? are you currently doing some work while you're on them to solve some issues? If not, you're just postponing, even worsening you anxiety long term, abusing in the mean time some benzo... anyway, occasional booze or even cannabis couldn't hurt so much
Regarding cannabis, I think anxious people are dividided: some are greatly 'benefited' from it and actually stick with it, and people whose anxiety is sometimes triggered by cannabis... If you're not sure you dont double the dose :P. You don't do it at all. You stick with soberness... huh?? Or am I preaching too much?
Anyways, I am not sure if there is a point in making this a public psychanalytical attempt... there are a series of questions an analyst would make, but even if I could guess the right questions to make, I don't think I can really give tips and insight from the answers I hear... It has to be ambidextrous. hard to do from distance...
Actually I don't really believe this discussion we are making. Whenever I try to bring it up, people hide or dismiss... cool. It's good you went easy with amanitas  It took me 4 years of careful, step by step experimentaion to understand how the material works and recently breakthroughing smoothly in the amanita space... Always with my own picked material, I pick mushrooms for table 4-5 years now... I don't mean everyone should be this careful.. that's the way I see it...
Angel_Above & Cognitive shift, very interesting comments, glad to at last see some like- or similar-minded...
Quote:
Doesn't that seem so unfair? You just get thrown into this world with a crappy setup and can't really do anything about it. I mean... People tell me I'm pretty emotionally sturdy a lot and I can hear a sort of jealousy in it, like not everyone who wants to be strong can be strong. I either.... just don't understand that or can't grasp it. I've always been sure I could be exactly who I want, and it's worked for me.
you got a couple of points, but I would say that life is not fair, we all know it , right?, and that rather than becoming what you want, I think accepting all that you are is the really important part here... If you accept youself, you can like what you are, even if you are 'mediocre'... that's the thing.. Knowing and accepting oneself [knowing-oneself = autognosia in greek [αυτογνωσία, aftognosia].
EM455 Well you have lots of similarities with a close friend of mine, even though he hadn't done so many drugs like you... what zodiac are you anyway? [I really don't know why I am asking these impossible questions :P]. My friend always used to try different things passionately, but he changed his mind a lot. Starting and quiting. Now he fleed to Spain! heh
anyways, oh , oh, EM455 what about the accidental deliriant intoxication? 
Quote:
Physiologically vasoconstriction with some psychedelics like ergolines.
nice point. that's why you can't take a heroic dose of lsa seeds , that's why hardcore users don't dig lsa seeds...
Here's a quote from the initial thread
It is in regards with warning signs in individuals, indicating they might be more sensitive to some psychoactives like cannabis, stimulants, psychedelics of all kind.
Quote:
I have figured out some harsh way to spot danger-groups / indications
*people with family history of mental problems. that's a known
*panic attacks [not scarce, but persistant] during intoxication or in random points
*cannabis is a good idicator. it can itself induce underlying mental issues especially if overdone and if a person has had problems during his cannabis use is also a warning sign IMO
and besides this,
if you do too much or too often or both, it's pretty obvious and understandable that even if you are the more steady personality you will gradually become 'something' else. Are you really keen on living the psychedelic life? And what life exacly is this?
I suspect only a few people can abuse psychedelics and take it all the way.. Most eventually stop , and few wise choose certain moments in their lives to partake... Some use them along with opiates, creating a astrong addictive scheme of stimulation and sedation... No wise path IMO .. It's all down to what point of biew you're looking it from...
Anyways... this post is pretty unstructured, but, heh it came from a scrambled area.
Edited by mutant (02/25/09 07:00 PM)
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