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 Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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 Rational Self-interest 
#9532859 - 01/02/09 03:21 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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An exchange in an unrelated thread reminded me of my prior interest in Game Theory. Several of my college professors had included discussions related to Game Theory, and I had pursued further research on my own.
One of the most interesting concepts to me is that of rational self-interest. While seemingly simple, this idea is actually a motherlode of psychological information.
Quote:
The key premise of game theory—that the actors in the interaction are each pursuing their own "rational self-interest" in a way that affects the outcome of the other actors' decisions—accurately mirrors the sense of human identity common in much of the modern, Western world.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Game_theory
Optimally, both individuals AND governments would fully understand this idea, and utilize it to shape pro-social behavior. Rather than rejecting rational self-interest as "selfish," we could embrace this motivational orientation & create a lifestyle/society in which it benefits everyone.
John Nash, who was (to all appearances) a fascinating individual, focused on Game Theory for much of his career as a mathematician. He received the Nobel Prize in Economics for his work, despite his struggles with mental illness, and brought Game Theory into public awareness.
To Game Theorists, irrational and altruistic behaviors are considered anomalies, whereas rational self-interest is the norm. If we frame altruistic behavior as resulting in intrinsic rewards for the individual, and irrational behavior as resulting from an imperfect understanding of the methods required to achieve rewards, or perhaps emotional issues which impair the individual, these behaviors are no longer anomalous.
IMO, shaping situations to promote pro-social pursuit of rational self-interest would be far more effective than preaching baseless moralisms. People will do things that they think they shouldn't, no matter how many threats of hellfire and brimstone they've heard, because the reward for pursuing self-interest is greater.
What do you think about these ideas? How would you apply them, or would you?
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 Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 7,357
Last seen: 15 hours, 2 minutes
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 Re: Rational Self-interest [Re: Veritas]
#9533001 - 01/02/09 03:47 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
If we frame altruistic behavior as resulting in intrinsic rewards for the individual
That seems like a big assumption.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: Rational Self-interest [Re: Veritas]
#9533007 - 01/02/09 03:48 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
IMO, shaping situations to promote pro-social pursuit of rational self-interest would be far more effective than preaching baseless moralisms.
Aren't pro-social and rational self-interest two mutually exclusive concepts?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: Rational Self-interest [Re: Lion]
#9533016 - 01/02/09 03:50 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Would you say that altruism has no intrinsic reward? Validation of a positive self-concept, enjoyment at seeing someone else's pleasure, a sense of belonging? All of these are commonly reported by those who perform altruistic acts.
The empathic experience of another person's suffering may result in compassion, and the resulting altruistic act would both relieve the shared pain and satisfy the compassionate urge to do so--intrinsic reward.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: Rational Self-interest [Re: deCypher]
#9533033 - 01/02/09 03:53 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Not necessarily. In a situation where self-interest would be undermined by pursuit of anti-social goals, the individual will tend to alter behavior towards the least detriment to oneself. Laws are a great example of a method of steering self-interested behaviors towards pro-social goals.
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ScavengerType
bradass87
Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,700
Loc: The North
Last seen: 21 days, 6 hours
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Re: Rational Self-interest [Re: Veritas]
#9533822 - 01/02/09 06:23 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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What are you talking about doing here? Starting a religon or ideology that would force people to see the rational self interest in pro-social actions? Or are you thinking of changing economic regulation to force anti-social rational self interest actions out?
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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Arden
לנשום
Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,648
Loc: Α & Ω 
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Quote:
The empathic experience of another person's suffering may result in compassion, and the resulting altruistic act would both relieve the shared pain and satisfy the compassionate urge to do so--intrinsic reward.
Very true. And altruism manifested as empathy with expressed compassion is nevertheless utilitarian, no matter how romantic.
Further, the existence of rational self-interest seems to correspond with a 'moral instinct'. Is it possible to reward or criticize pro-social behavior when it is seemingly independent of our free will?
From Wiki:
" ...[the] mirror neuron system is [probably] involved in empathy. A large number of experiments using functional MRI, electroencephalography and magnetoencephalography have shown that certain brain regions (in particular the anterior insula, anterior cingulate cortex, and inferior frontal cortex) are active when a person experiences an emotion (disgust, happiness, pain, etc.) and when he sees another person experiencing an emotion.[37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42][43] However, these brain regions are not quite the same as the ones which mirror hand actions, and mirror neurons for emotional states or empathy have not yet been described in monkeys. More recently, Christian Keysers at the Social Brain Lab and colleagues have shown that people that are more empathic according to self-report questionnaires have stronger activations both in the mirror system for hand actions[44] and the mirror system for emotions[45], providing more direct support to the idea that the mirror system is linked to empathy. "
An example from another angle:
" Richard Lenski and Greg Velicer found that differing strains of the gut bacterium E. Coli engage in a type of chemical warfare when there is a shortage of nutrients. A chemical attack occurs through the production of a toxin by a certain strain of the bacteria. This toxin is strain-specific meaning it is only deadly to other strains. Unfortunately the bacterium that produces the toxin kills itself in the process. Another interesting note is that though all bacteria of a certain strain of E. Coli have the gene to produce the toxin, only a few actually do, sacrificing themselves for the rest of the group. Game theory can be used to determine the proportion of bacteria that will become “suicide bombers”. "
Link: http://expertvoices.nsdl.org/cornell-info204/2008/04/22/evolutionary-game-theory-and-suicide-bombers/
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Grapefruit
Obliviated
Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 4,276
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Re: Rational Self-interest [Re: Arden]
#9536382 - 01/03/09 05:24 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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IMO you have to strike a balance between making sure you're not the only benefactor and, shutting yourself out of the picture.
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"So man's insanity is heaven's sense; and wandering from all mortal reason, man comes at last to that celestial thought, which, to reason, is absurd and frantic; and weal or woe, feels then uncompromised, indifferent as his God." - Herman Melville
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,628
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equating playful manner with game theory attitude [Re: Grapefruit]
#9536789 - 01/03/09 07:56 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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balance is key, and a bit of the "game theory" attitude helps, balanced with some attitude that relieves the "theorist" of theory so that he can properly regenerate:
so that if you take a few steps back from this pitching of the "theory", you could say that a playful manner enhances one's enlightenment.
(eg. Rimbaud's "systematized disorganization of all the senses")
I find these "backward" (non-rational) steps are important so that the "theorist" takes himself less seriously which goes in hand with becoming a playful realist.
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