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 myriadeyes
man with a movie camera
Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
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 Re: Ancient gods from lack of science?  [Re: invisible girl]
#9476017 - 12/22/08 02:30 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
invisible girl said:
I'm not to keen to the alien idea either, but there is a large section of text devoted to a group of indigenous people who until WWI had been totally isolated. British pilots made an emergency landing on their small island. After the British left these people started to build airplanes, or as best they could out of what they had. They claimed that they had seen gods.
Very interesting. Let me mull over this for a day or two, but if this is true you may very well have shown my logic to be flawed. But first I've got to ask some questions. Were they assigning the flying planes they saw to be tangible evidence of flying gods they already believed in and had stories of? What exactly did they mean when they called them gods? Did they have any retention of gods who resembled white men (I believe it was the Olmec Indians that had a white blonde-haired god)?
I will definitely check this book out because this idea has always fascinated me. Though I have not read it, I do immediately have doubts about its legitimacy when it makes the claim that most early cultures were visited by aliens who imparted knowledge to them and left..
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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .
Edited by myriadeyes (12/22/08 04:19 AM)
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zouden
Neuroscientist
 
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: myriadeyes]
#9476233 - 12/22/08 03:37 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
myriadeyes said:
You are assuming the very topic this thread proposed was flawed to be true and then using it in a slightly different context to defend itself. You are using a cyclical argument.
Oh I see. I was trying to use the god-of-the-gaps to explain why debunking miracles is fair game, but I can see how my argument got muddled up there. Let's take things back a bit.
Quote:
myriadeyes said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
OP, would you then care to explain why the farther back in time you go the more "miracles" happen?
If you are referring to the Biblical miracles, these in fact can in no way can be explained by science and are entirely unrelated to what this thread is about.
Could you explain how miracles aren't relevant to this thread? Your original post was discussing the idea that belief in a higher power historically stems from a lack of understanding of how the world works. I think miracles are a perfect example of this.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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myriadeyes
man with a movie camera
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: zouden]
#9476342 - 12/22/08 04:05 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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You believe that the ancients viewed lightning as a miracle. They could not understand why it happened, so they deemed it a purely supernatural action of the gods not based in physical reality. With the advent of modern science, it has been found that these events can in fact be explained by the processes of nature. You also believe that the ancients thought it was a miracle when Christ simply touched a man and he was no longer blind. The problem is this event cannot and will not ever be explained by science - no scientific experiment will ever show how touching someone cures blindness (*See side note). In your view, they are related in that they were both considered supernatural events, but the reason they are entirely unrelated is because one can be explained by science and the other cannot and never will be. This is why you are not making a valid argument and why I don't wish to to talk about Biblical miracles, or if they actually happened.
* For this debate what is important is the story of the miracle itself and how it represented the ancients world view, not the veracity of the claim
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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .
Edited by myriadeyes (12/22/08 04:16 AM)
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zouden
Neuroscientist
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: myriadeyes]
#9476377 - 12/22/08 04:19 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hmm, I see what you're saying. But I think the veracity of the claim is central, because the scientific explanation for the story of this miracle is that it probably didn't happen.
Consider the miracle of Moses parting the waters. There probably is a scientific explanation for that (one that doesn't require divine intervention), such as tides. I'm not a biblical historian, but that seems like it might be a decent theory. But the idea of critically examining biblical events like this is a relatively new one; in the past, people would have just accepted it as divine intervention, a miracle. It fits with their idea of Moses being guided by God. So, I take this as another example of how a lack of understanding of the world serves to strengthen religion.
An even better example is the Great Flood. It's almost certainly the flooding of the Black Sea basin. Though I don't know if the Flood is considered a miracle. But nevertheless, a real, geological event made its way into the bible, but the actual cause of the event is ascribed to God.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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 redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,944
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: myriadeyes]
#9477041 - 12/22/08 10:44 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
myriadeyes said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
gods, magic, medicine and science was all one thing back in the day
before books and writing.
so now we can only imagine what they were thinking,
but they musta thought pretty hard and carefully to come up with their science and carefully passed it on by word of mouth.
If we can only imagine what they were thinking, how do you know your first assumption is true?? Have any sources to back up the idea that gods, magic, medicine and science were all the same thing? This is the very thing this thread puts under scrutiny.
oh great, scrutiny
I think my left side has a better profile than my right side.
(will they be taking photos?)
true. we are projecting and extrapolating at what might or must have been back in a time before "records" were kept.
back into a time that only has stone scrapings, carbon dating, and a few strange marks on a few cave walls.
wait a minute, what about modern anthropology, one of the most excitingly compromised of the sciences?
have we not uncovered a few "superstitious" jungle tribes (I am thinking ayahuasca brewing cultures now) for whom all the big questions are subsumed into one science-religion-tradition...
maybe it does not fall into place too easily, if you think that these are fundamentally different authorities (science religion and medicine),
but one shaman (medicine man) at a time per tribe seemed to embody all of the science that they had,
and his college was usually a group of less than 4 potential successors, students.
schultes reported several encounters with this type of atavistic science and culture in his writings and in the writings about him.
right now I am enjoying a book "One River" by Wade Davis, who was lucky enough to work with schultes. http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0684834960/ref=sib_dp_ptu#reader-link
you might like it.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,944
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: zouden]
#9477045 - 12/22/08 10:46 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
... But the idea of critically examining biblical events like this is a relatively new one; ...
yikes!
are you among the people who thinks this is an event (parting the red sea, and each and every one of the ten plagues).
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zouden
Neuroscientist
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: redgreenvines]
#9479070 - 12/22/08 06:15 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Huh?
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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myriadeyes
man with a movie camera
Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: redgreenvines]
#9482831 - 12/23/08 01:48 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Was it Schultes that worked with all the indigenous tribes and jump started a psychedelic revolution? I think I saw a PBS documentary on him a while back. Fascinating stuff.
I checked the online card catalog and my library has it. I'm reading three books currently but when I finish one I'll go get it. Thanks for the recommendation. I really don't know that much about shamanism/animism so I'll go read this book before I attempt to have a relatively intelligent conversation about it, but I see what you're getting at and you could very well be right.
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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .
Edited by myriadeyes (12/23/08 02:11 PM)
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myriadeyes
man with a movie camera
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: zouden]
#9482834 - 12/23/08 01:48 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why does it matter if the Biblical miracles happened?
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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .
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zouden
Neuroscientist
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: myriadeyes]
#9483901 - 12/23/08 05:44 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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The way I see it, Zeus throwing down lightning is the same as Moses parting the red sea. Both are attempts to explain natural phenomena using a divine cause.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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myriadeyes
man with a movie camera
Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: zouden]
#9484106 - 12/23/08 06:20 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Maybe the parting of the red sea was a natural phenomenon, but it definitely was not when Jesus touched a blind man and he was cured, or when he touched a leper and suddenly their skin was "like a newborn's".
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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .
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myriadeyes
man with a movie camera
Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: zouden]
#9484114 - 12/23/08 06:21 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
But nevertheless, a real, geological event made its way into the bible, but the actual cause of the event is ascribed to God.
Once again, the Biblical view is that ALL EVENTS are ascribed to God..
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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .
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Bernackums
The universe will have its way.
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: myriadeyes]
#9484150 - 12/23/08 06:26 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
myriadeyes said:
Maybe the parting of the red sea was a natural phenomenon, but it definitely was not when Jesus touched a blind man and he was cured, or when he touched a leper and suddenly their skin was "like a newborn's".
And there are people claiming to do this all over the world, today.
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Let's get the fuck out of here.
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OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 35,269
Loc: Candyland
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: Bernackums]
#9484184 - 12/23/08 06:32 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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And several of them in M&P.
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This is your caterpillar on DMT. Any questions?
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Bernackums
The universe will have its way.
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Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Let's get the fuck out of here.
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OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave
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Posts: 35,269
Loc: Candyland
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: Bernackums]
#9484259 - 12/23/08 06:44 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Be nice! 
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This is your caterpillar on DMT. Any questions?
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zouden
Neuroscientist
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: myriadeyes]
#9484262 - 12/23/08 06:44 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
myriadeyes said:
Maybe the parting of the red sea was a natural phenomenon, but it definitely was not when Jesus touched a blind man and he was cured, or when he touched a leper and suddenly their skin was "like a newborn's".
Those things probably didn't happen.
Quote:
myriadeyes said:
Quote:
zouden said:
But nevertheless, a real, geological event made its way into the bible, but the actual cause of the event is ascribed to God.
Once again, the Biblical view is that ALL EVENTS are ascribed to God..
Yep, even ones that have a non-divine explanation, like the great flood, or the parting of the red sea. This is because the bible was written by men who didn't know any better, so they thought these events were caused by God. Just like the Greeks thought lightning was caused by Zeus.
Edited by zouden (12/23/08 06:46 PM)
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myriadeyes
man with a movie camera
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: zouden]
#9484765 - 12/23/08 08:10 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Those things probably didn't happen.
I don't care whether they happened or not. We are not talking about the factuality of miracles. The only thing that is important is the ancient's world view. You are trying to liken normal events that were believed to be supernatural, but really were not, to events that, if real, really were supernatural.
Quote:
zouden said:
Yep, even ones that have a non-divine explanation, like the great flood, or the parting of the red sea. This is because the bible was written by men who didn't know any better, so they thought these events were caused by God.
They maintained that when another king came and killed their families that it was a divine act from God. It had nothing to do with whether or not they 'knew any better'.
I can't debate this anymore.
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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .
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OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 35,269
Loc: Candyland
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Re: Ancient gods from lack of science? [Re: myriadeyes]
#9484811 - 12/23/08 08:16 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I can't debate this anymore.
A Christmas Miracle! 
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This is your caterpillar on DMT. Any questions?
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myriadeyes
man with a movie camera
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Something like that.
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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .
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