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 rungi
journeymana
Registered: 07/11/01
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 malt extract liquid and solid media
#9351279 - 12/02/08 01:08 PM (1 month, 6 days ago) |
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Does any one know why Stamets suggest doubling the amount of malt extract for liquid media as opposed to solid media? He recommends 40 grams for 1000ml of liquid and 20 grams for 1000 ml of solid. Also what are the effect of doubling malt extract in solid media?
For example 40 grams malt extract 20 grams of agar and 1000 of water. Will oyster mycelium still grow in this extra strong concentration of malt?
Edited by rungi (12/02/08 01:57 PM)
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Hipster
Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 58
Loc: Southwest-USA
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Re: malt extract liquid and solid media [Re: rungi]
#9357024 - 12/03/08 10:20 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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Hi: Stamets wrote his first book back in the very early 80's and there are a number of rules of thumb in it that are not some empirical law but the best information he had at the time.
In the late 70's when in the army a group of us from Madigan Army Medical Center attended a class on micro biology dealing with the selection, use and making of media for medical personal at the University of Washington. We were given a DEFCO Handbook and a BBL Manual as part of our text books and many times you would see 20-40gr of DME or a sugar per Liter being used in a LC/Broth as compared to an Agar Medium with its 10-30gr DME or a sugar per Liter. Some of us inquired about this and we were told this was because when one adds agar you can make the osmotic /tonic force to high for optimal growth. So the amount of DME or sugar is reduced by the amount of agar used, which in most cases is half the amount found in a Broth.
I'm not saying this is right, it may have been just a fast answer given so they could keep the class moving on. But it's passable that Stamets may have been given the same little bit of information in his studies.
There was no going on line and using a search engine, so information was a lot harder to come by back then.
Edited by Hipster (12/10/08 01:20 PM)
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 Mycelio
Stranger
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Re: malt extract liquid and solid media [Re: rungi]
#9357224 - 12/03/08 11:06 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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Another possibility could be that in a liquid medium all the water is free, while in a solid one a lot of water is bound to agar or starch. In literature, 4% sugar by weight is recommended as optimal for liquid cultures, much more will prevent the mycelium from growing, while with less sugar you will still have healthy growth.
Carsten
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 fastfred
Registered: 05/17/04
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Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: malt extract liquid and solid media [Re: Mycelio]
#9361208 - 12/03/08 07:53 PM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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I think he was just pulling numbers out of his ass. (based on experience of course)
The general rule of thumb is 2-4% for both solid and liquid media.
-FF
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rungi
journeymana
Registered: 07/11/01
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Re: malt extract liquid and solid media [Re: fastfred]
#9403717 - 12/09/08 11:54 PM (30 days, 5 hours ago) |
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Do you think 2 or 4 percent would favor bacteria growth when cloning?
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Hipster
Registered: 09/28/08
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Re: malt extract liquid and solid media [Re: rungi]
#9406222 - 12/10/08 01:07 PM (29 days, 16 hours ago) |
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Hi: At very high leaves sugar will inhibit the growth of bacteria but at the 2to4% sugar used in the mediums that we use is below that point. That's way home made jams and jellies (there high sugar content) can be hot packed and sealed with wax. It's the PH of the medium that has an influence over the growth of most bacteria and with a PH that's some what acidic 5.8+/- or so will favor the growth of most fungi. Using canning as an example again, you can hot pack high acid foods like tomato's where as most other things need to be PC ed. I hope this helps. Hipster
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rungi
journeymana
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Re: malt extract liquid and solid media [Re: Hipster]
#9407403 - 12/10/08 04:06 PM (29 days, 13 hours ago) |
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Thanks, it helps a little. I guess no general rule can be laid out it depends on strain and mushroom species. Like yeast division or fermentation related to the original gravity of the wort. Some yeast strains will take off on high gravity wort others not so well. To be determined experimentally. I guess calcium sulphate is a poor addition to a media in which a clone will be introduced because of the neturalization of the media (which you say favors bacteria more than fungi) unless the media is exceptionally basic. I have read very high malt concentrations will induce many types of mushrooms to fruit from solid media plates.
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Hipster
Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 58
Loc: Southwest-USA
Last seen: 7 days, 18 hours
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Re: malt extract liquid and solid media [Re: rungi]
#9408078 - 12/10/08 05:53 PM (29 days, 11 hours ago) |
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Hi: In a very real way a LC/Broth is a wort in its own right. All one needs to do is find brewing supply in their area or on line and every thing you need is there. The LC/Broth I use is nothing more than 35gr Wheat DME, 5gr Dextrose (spiking sugar), 2gr Wyeast yeast nutrient (a mix of some peptone, yeast extract, ammonium phosphate, minerals and vitamins) and 2cc of glycerin into a liter of di-water.
Edited by Hipster (12/14/08 09:35 PM)
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tr8orjohn
Waiting for an airplane...
Registered: 11/03/08
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Re: malt extract liquid and solid media [Re: Hipster]
#9415418 - 12/11/08 11:19 PM (28 days, 6 hours ago) |
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Not to threadjack too bad, but why the glycerin hipster?
--------------------
----------------------------------------------------
Ex Chemist, Current Biologist, working towards Mycologist...some slack may be necessary
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Hipster
Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 58
Loc: Southwest-USA
Last seen: 7 days, 18 hours
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Re: malt extract liquid and solid media [Re: tr8orjohn]
#9432793 - 12/14/08 08:52 PM (25 days, 8 hours ago) |
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Hi: It's some thing that's old school and I really don't know if it helps or not. Some Mycologist have added it to their mediums (found in DMSZ and others) thinking that it helps with the making of the mycelium walls. One of the mushroom kit dealers that was selling in High Times back in 1984 turned me on to this and I have a supply on hand, so I use it. There also was this battle over Light DME and Wheat DME at that time to, some felt that Wheat DME was better because of it higher dextrin fiber content that could be used in making the mycelium walls (both are cold spray dried with little or no carmel in them).
I stop growing in 1986 and didn't started again till 2006, so there may be some things that are out dated or not used any more that I'm still doing.
Edited by Hipster (12/14/08 09:31 PM)
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