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 maudlin
Stranger
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 77
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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 Cosmological Argument *DELETED* 
#9097573 - 10/18/08 08:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by maudlinReason for deletion: eh
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 DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: maudlin]
#9097936 - 10/18/08 09:25 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Cause and effect break down on the microscopic level, and thus you cannot trace occurrences backwards. What we interpret as 'cause and effect' is just the inherently probabilistic outcome of many microscopic random occurrences summed up to the macroscopic observation that appears to be an effect.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: DieCommie]
#9097968 - 10/18/08 09:38 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Moreover, cause and effect don't even exist on the macroscopic level. What we deem as causality is only our observation of two spatiotemporally contiguous events occurring right after each other.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,336
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: maudlin]
#9097978 - 10/18/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Big Bang, or something else, but then the question becomes, what came before?
For me, God is found within experience. God is found within that which humbles me, that which teaches me. Left to my own ego, I'm not much. I find it odd that a person who fails many times can find the strength to succeed when they ask for help from God, real or not. Perhaps God is a placebo, but when treated as such, it's not very helpful. So, call it consciousness, God, the higher self, etc. an appeal to a higher power can be very useful, and I think this is the primary reason people create a relationship with God, which is perhaps different from a belief in God.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: deCypher]
#9097987 - 10/18/08 09:44 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said: What we deem as causality is only our observation of two spatiotemporally contiguous events occurring right after each other.
Sounds like you're taking "correlation does not imply causation" to its extreme end... any evidence for that, or just armchair philosophy? 
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: DieCommie]
#9097995 - 10/18/08 09:46 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Evidence? Suppose you say that event A causes event B. How do you know this, exactly? The only reason why you assume this is because every time event A happened in the past, event B followed--but this is no hard proof that B will always follow A. There is no logical inference in jumping to the conclusion that A causes B, apart from a reliance upon tradition (and a belief that our Universe tends to be orderly.)
Hume had some pretty good writings on this.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: maudlin]
#9099639 - 10/19/08 11:36 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
maudlin said:
I'm sure most of you are familiar with the content of it, but for those who are not, the idea is that when you trace the causes of various physical Universal occurrences backwards you end up at a point where there is a colloquial first cause that is in itself eternal and uncaused. Many also view this as justifying belief in the existence of God.
Discuss.
These are just speculative subjective beliefs. Usually this kind of thing is based in emotional security issues. The truth is we don't know any thing about first cause.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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maudlin
Stranger
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Posts: 77
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Cosmological Argument *DELETED* [Re: deCypher]
#9101561 - 10/19/08 08:00 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by maudlinReason for deletion: eh
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: maudlin]
#9102180 - 10/19/08 10:34 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
maudlin said: Hume is right that we can't assume that we know what about event A causes event B based on our experience that B follows A in every observable situation, but there is some repeated element of A that is leading to B in every instance.
Up until now... but this gives us no hard proof that B will happen the next time A occurs. Can you prove that the Sun will rise tomorrow?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: deCypher]
#9102296 - 10/19/08 11:00 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Statistically impossible is 'hard proof' in my (and others) opinion.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: DieCommie]
#9102302 - 10/19/08 11:02 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Statistically improbable
Fixed. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: deCypher]
#9102306 - 10/19/08 11:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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No, I meant statistically impossible.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: DieCommie]
#9102316 - 10/19/08 11:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Oxymoron. Even if the chances are extremely low, it's still possible.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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maudlin
Stranger
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 77
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Cosmological Argument *DELETED* [Re: deCypher]
#9102341 - 10/19/08 11:11 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by maudlinReason for deletion: eh
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: deCypher]
#9102343 - 10/19/08 11:11 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thats not what that phrase means. At least, not how Ive seen it used and used it myelf.
If something is so improbable that we wont ever see it in an enormus time, like flipping ten goggles worth of heads in a row that is statisticlly impossible. There is a small finite probability that it could happen, but because of statistics it is by all practical purposes impossible. Thats what statistically impossible means. And that is sufficient for something to be proven. At least in my world thats how it works...
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: DieCommie]
#9102350 - 10/19/08 11:14 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Trick question, the sun never "rises," it's just an illusion caused by the earth rotating around it.
Myth: Busted
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Edited by learningtofly (10/19/08 11:15 PM)
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: DieCommie]
#9102357 - 10/19/08 11:16 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Thats not what that phrase means. At least, not how Ive seen it used and used it myelf.
If something is so improbable that we wont ever see it in an enormus time, like flipping ten goggles worth of heads in a row that is statisticlly impossible. There is a small finite probability that it could happen, but because of statistics it is by all practical purposes impossible. Thats what statistically impossible means. And that is sufficient for something to be proven. At least in my world thats how it works...
Eh, the terminology is not philosophically coherent then. Impossible, by definition, implies an event will never happen.
This is why I stick to the nice abstraction-land of philosophy.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: deCypher]
#9102368 - 10/19/08 11:19 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Impossible, by definition, implies an event will never happen.
And flipping ten googols worth of heads in a row will never happen.  (and neither will the sun not rising in our lifetime)
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: DieCommie]
#9102372 - 10/19/08 11:21 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Just wait till 2012.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: Cosmological Argument [Re: DieCommie]
#9102374 - 10/19/08 11:22 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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How do you know it won't happen? I already proved that not only will the sun never rise in our lifetime, but ever because the Sun never actually rises.
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